S/O Not lying to your own children when other family members lie to theirs

[Dancer_Mom]

So I have a question but didn't want to hijack the other thread about sharing bad things with our children.

 

Unfortunately,  both DH and myself have family member(s) who have died by suicide.  Our children are still very young but we plan to tell them the truth about these deaths in an age appropriate way as they get older.

 

I have always been troubled by the fact that other family members decided after the death of an uncle that the children (his) should be told a different story.  They were younger at the time, but not so young they couldn't hear the truth in an age appropriate way.  The "family" determined it was too horrific and they would be told story "B." 

 

I don't feel it appropriate to interfere with what their mother has determined is right for them, but I personally don't feel right telling my own children story "B."  How horrible  it would be for these kids to learn from cousins the real truth.  In my heart I believe and hope that as they age our family will realize the real truth is important for them to know.  But what if they don't you know?  And it never comes up again?  I feel like it also wouldn't be right to tell my own children to keep it secret. 

 

We have some years before this every might become an issue but I have always worried about the affect this situation could have on our relationship with the mom of the kids.  We want to respect her but be true to what we believe as well. 

 

That's all... just thought about this problem again because of the other thread...  anyone else have a similar situation or thoughts?

 

edited for clarity

[Murphy101]

Everyone in our families knows I won't support their lies.

 

I won't go out of my way to contradict them, but if I'm asked, I tell the truth. If I'm told a lie, I will not confirm it.

 

If they don't like that, then I simply tell them I feel no moral imperative to bolster their lies and that's the best I can manage to meet them half way.

 

It's not easy, but in the end I've come to see it's the best policy for us to have.

[Orthodox6]

Wish that I had a helpful answer.  At our house, the situation is that children of our aunt and uncle continue to hide from their parents that one of the children has cancer for several years by now.  DH and I disagree with this, but feel forced to play along. 

 

We also have the fact that my mother's father abandoned the family when she was a child (leaving them in appalling poverty), and did not "die" as she always insisted.  (My father told me the truth when I left home for college.)  In this case, we have been up front with our children. 

 

When your children are older (older teens and young adults), you will know how circumspect they can be when required to "be guardian" of sensitive information.  If you believe/know that they can be trusted to hold information in confidence, it could be best to tell them the truth.  It may make a difference how close or distant your family is, by that time, with the relatives in question.  or, it may make no difference.  As you write, it is early yet to know.

 

Although truthfulness is a core value for me, I don't believe that I may legislate that value onto people other than my own children.

[GSOchristie]

If it were me, I would definitely wait until my kids actually asked about how Uncle died.  I wouldn't be volunteering any details that my kids might leak to his children if they did not specifically ask me about what happened, which I imagine my kids would not do until they are much older.  I would not lie to my kids, but I would definitely stress that this is a hugely sensitive issus and the details do not need to be discussed with their cousins without my express approval AND presence of both me and their mom.  

[elfgivas]

in our house we have a category of things that:

"you know, but you don't know".

 

the explanation we give is that we believe in honesty, but that is not universally how folks treat children.

we encourage them to give people a chance to tell them themselves.

 

the focus is on compassion and caring. so in the case OP mentioned, the focus would be on loving the kids thru a horrific event, not on how it came to be. for our own kids, it would a warning of how it is possible to slide into that kind of depression.

 

and given the family history, i would be doing seligman's exercises for kids with mine that encourage learned optimism.... which really does decrease depression and suicide rates. and are easy. and mostly fun. and which it turns out have helped dh and i, too.

 

during one particularly fraught time this summer, youngest dd (currently in the throes of being a teenager) turned to me and said "just s&ck it up and pretend to be happy. you know, when you smile, your body thinks you're happy and you become happy. i mean, how weird is that??!!"

 

which made me smile for real. lesson learned.

[mytwomonkeys]

my sister was married once before and none of her children know. i have never told my own children this & i would never tell her children either. for me, it isn't my place to expose the truth.  my sister will need to deal with that and it's consequences if it should ever come up.  my family is not conservative, so it isn't that divorce is taboo (my sister was never married to her oldest son's father).  my sister is 45, and i think that first marriage was a painful mistake and she doesn't want to share it for whatever reason.  granted, i've never been asked, "was my mom married before?"... and if i were, i'm not sure what i would say!

 

as for my kids, i plan to share truths with them as their maturity permits.  my daughter just recently found out that one of my best friend's committed suicide. she knew this friend had died, but she never knew how until a recent conversation. she had asked me in the past about her death & i deliberately kept the details from her because it wasn't the right time to answer the rest of the questions that would ensue (why? how? etc).

 

as for other things, if my kids ask about situations, circumstances, etc. i will not lie. but it doesn't mean i need to be fully transparent in my answers either. if it isn't my business at all or my own secret to reveal, then that will be my answer to them.

 

[Dmmetler]

We have a situation where SIL cut off some of her extended family and DH didn't. Except for us, everyone lives in the same geographic area, so we see them on trips.

 

DD has figured out that there's no way that DH's father can be alive, but SIL's father dead, when the family pictures show them as having the same father-but at least so far, I don't think she's shared that information with her cousins. We haven't told her NOT to do so (DH and I made the decision years ago that we were staying out of it), but I guess she's mentally placed it in the same category as "do not tell little kids that Christmas presents aren't made by elves at the North Pole".

 

 

[Ravin]

We have all sorts of family skeletons. I'm one for explaining things honestly but without unnecessary added info, and some difficult things I've consulted DD's counselor before explaining. Examples include about her older sister whom DH hasn't seen since well before DD was born (because his ex wanted it that way and he didn't want his DD growing up in an emotional battle zone), about what happened to her cousin (who was assaulted by her stepdad), and why the next time we go out there to visit, we'll visit grandma separately from her aunts and cousins (because my sister lays blame on my mom for CPS stuff and thinks my stepdad is a perv because she sees what isn't there out of fear borne of past trauma).

 

DD doesn't know every gory detail, but I've tried to explain things in a way that makes sense and is truthful.

[gardenmom5]

my father committed suicide when I was 12.  some told me, others didn't.  the ones who told me were doing it *purely* out of selfish reasons.  it only added to my grief (which is already pretty hard on kids because people don't tend  to pay attention to them.) sometimes the correct answer is "there are grown-up things you don't need to worry about now."  a child shouldn't have to wonder if they could have done something differently maybe their father would still be alive.  they shouldn't have to wonder why their father abandoned them.

 

I didn't tell my children the full truth about my father's death until they were adults. (they never knew him, or fil, because both were deceased long before dh and I married.)  frankly, children below mid/late-teens do not need that information when they are already going through a turbulent age. 

[gardenmom5]

If it were me, I would definitely wait until my kids actually asked about how Uncle died.  I wouldn't be volunteering any details that my kids might leak to his children if they did not specifically ask me about what happened, which I imagine my kids would not do until they are much older.  I would not lie to my kids, but I would definitely stress that this is a hugely sensitive issus and the details do not need to be discussed with their cousins without my express approval AND presence of both me and their mom.  

  thinking kids won't let something of this magnitude slip is naïve.

[Bootsie]

My grandfather committed suicide when I was 3 years old.  I did not understand that at the time.  My other grandfather died when I was 4 from cancer as did several other family members.  So, death was not an unusual event to me as a preschooler.  It wasn't until I was in my teens that I heard my mom say, "When X committed suicide..." during a phone conversation until I knew what had happened.  I wasn't happy that I found out that way, but I did understand why I didn't know earlier.  I don't think it had occurred to me to ask why my grandfather had died, and I am not sure if my parents thought I knew or didn't know.  I recently found out that some of my cousins do not know even though they are now in their 50s. 

 

Hopefully, when your children are old enough to know the truth about their uncle they will also be old enough to realize that it is not their information to share with their cousins.  I know that it can be a fine line, but I think kids can understand that they are not to lie but that they have been trusted with information that isn't appropriate to bring up or share with others.

[bolt.]

I think it's important to wait to tell your kids until they are old enough to be boundaried and tactful around their cousins -- and to give specific instructions about what that looks like. There is a difference between privacy and secrecy. Nobody should find out from a cousin.

 

I currently describe suicide as "death resulting from sickness: specifically a mental illness" this casts well as, 'They died because their brain wasn't working properly. Some mental illnesses turn out to be fatal, just like some physical illnesses turn out to be fatal.' Kids who are young concrete thinkers think of that in physical terms 'something wrong with the brain, so they died'. Later the explanation can be expanded to include that the thing that was wrong with the brain had to do with depression and the will to live, therefore the person-in-illness irrationally chose to do something that ended their life.

 

I find even adults receive great comfort from the idea of a 'fatal mental illness' (as opposed to the idea of suicide as a free choice, rationally made, by a person not suffering any debilitation that compromised their agency with respect to that choice).

[MrsJewelsRae]

Withholding information is not the same as lying. You cannot trust information of this magnitude to a child, there is a huge risk that they will tell the children whose father died. They don't need to know, tell them he was sick, he was obviously emotionally/mentally ill if he committed suicide, but they don't need all the details. If you tell them he committed suicide, they're going to ask how- do they really need to know that too? As a child I was told some very damaging/ sensitive information by my cousin, I was too young to understand it and process it and felt too upset and embarrassed to ask my parents about it. It was info I did not need to know, and neither did the cousin, my parents would have shared it eventually when I was old enough. My aunt never should have told my cousin that info and just trusted her not to share it. Imagine how you would feel if a random cousin insensitively told your children that their father killed himself, please don't put this responsibility on your kids, and the risk on your already grieving nieces/nephews.

[zoobie]

thinking kids won't let something of this magnitude slip is naïve.

I took her to mean when her kids are older, as in not KIDS any more. My oldest is only 10, but she has never asked me how someone has died when we have been telling family stories looking through pictures. Oh, that's Uncle Bob. He died in 1985, way before you were born. Later we will discuss it with them as young adults because of the family history of severe mental illness. Their uncle's suicide has no impact on their lives right now, any more so than another deceased relative's cancer or Alzheimer's.

[ChristusG]

I don't lie to my kids. If there's a family situation that needs to be addressed , then I address it in an age appropriate way. If there are details that I feel are too mature for them , then I explain to them that I can tell them more when they are older.... There are certain things children do not need to know but I won't lie about it. Kids can handle the truth most of the time. We have several family situations right now that my kids know about.

[Farrar]

The exact same thing happened in my family.  But not to people my kids know or that I myself am close to (it was a cousin of mine a few times out).  I was certainly surprised when the story changed though because everyone seemed to have suddenly decided to tell a different version, one that made a lot less sense, when it came up.  And apparently a large part of the reason was the kids.

 

I have no real wisdom to share though.  If my kids asked, I wouldn't be able to lie, but if they asked I might say something like, "You know, usually we can talk about it, but it's complicated and private this time and we can discuss it when you're older."  But even that feels weird to me.  I'm usually gentle but blunt with my kids.

[Murphy101]

I think if someone tells lies or keeps secrets, then the burden of maintaining that secret or lie is entirely on them and they should not expect or presume that anyone else, much less society at large, is going to maintain it.

 

This is why in general I find them to be foolhardy endeavors doomed to not end well from the start.

 

And thus why I would never participate in it or suggest it a good idea.

[Whereneverever]

Is telling kids that the person died from a mental illness without mentioning suicide a lie, though? Is that different then telling a child a person died from cancer without listing off the order their organs failed and that they actually died from respiratory distress, or whatever?

[Dancer_Mom]

I think if someone tells lies or keeps secrets, then the burden of maintaining that secret or lie is entirely on them and they should not expect or presume that anyone else, much less society at large, is going to maintain it.

 

This is why in general I find them to be foolhardy endeavors doomed to not end well from the start.

 

And thus why I would never participate in it or suggest it a good idea.

 

See... I think you expressed well what I was thinking.  Keeping our family out of it completely...it's not like all the other adults (and possibly some kids) in their small town don't know what happened.  I already worry that something will slip out by someone not even related in front of them and it will be far more upsetting than if they were told the right amount of information at the right time by a loved one.  

 

I spent most of today thinking about it while running errands.  The cousins in question are 7-8 years older than my children, and by the time our kids would be the right age to know the whole story they would be young adults and I would be surprised if their mom hasn't changed her mind by then.  Kids get more curious for details as they age, and I kind of think the shock and grief of the moment led her to go to greater lengths to protect them from it.

 

Again, I also agree with others that it may never come up.  Obviously, it is private and sensitive to them and hardly something I would presume to bring up or discuss during family visits... only that the thought of all the kids being adults someday with some knowing a partial truth and some knowing the full truth seems strange and sad in a way to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[freesia]

I took her to mean when her kids are older, as in not KIDS any more. My oldest is only 10, but she has never asked me how someone has died when we have been telling family stories looking through pictures. Oh, that's Uncle Bob. He died in 1985, way before you were born. Later we will discuss it with them as young adults because of the family history of severe mental illness. Their uncle's suicide has no impact on their lives right now, any more so than another deceased relative's cancer or Alzheimer's.

She's right to be prepared, though. I have a cousin who died of suicide right before my oldest was born and my kids have asked how he died. I was actually surprised that they asked. It's not a secret in our family, though, so I didn't have that issue.

[Dancer_Mom]

Is telling kids that the person died from a mental illness without mentioning suicide a lie, though? Is that different then telling a child a person died from cancer without listing off the order their organs failed and that they actually died from respiratory distress, or whatever?

 

I agree with you too... that is not a lie.  But when the kids are 17 and 18 and know you can't drop dead from simply being depressed would you then tell them it led to the suicide?  I hardly think it necessary that the kids read the police report someday (to address the cancer analogy) that would be upsetting and unnecessary but it seems that ultimately the suicide part needs to come out at some point.

 

By the way... the story my family told them is not that one.  They added in more details which makes it feel more like a lie than simply the right amount of information for  the right age.

[Whereneverever]

At 17 and 18 I would address that sometimes people are so sick they can't go on or see a way out and can end their lives. When I saw kids in the previous posts I was picturing elementary aged children not teens.

 

And no, I wouldn't concoct some unrelated story before that point. I think explaining people can have real illnesses in their minds as well as their bodies is true and helps destigmatize mental illness.

[AimeeM]

I would be livid if I chose to spare my young children's feelings and their cousins told them otherwise; possibly enough to not allow the cousins (or you with the children) together unless directly under my supervision again. The children of the deceased aren't yours - I feel like you should respect mom's wishes on this.

[HRAAB]

Withholding information is not lying. When my children were young, I would just say uncle died. When they're older (up to the parent to determine) if they asked about his death, I wouldn't lie but maybe not necessarily tell them everything if they were satisfied by my answer. If directly asked, I would answer honestly. I would not directly lie, and I don't think anyone has the right to expect me to outright lie to cover their story. I would tell my children it is not something we talk about. I would try to respects the mother's choices, but I would not lie although I would try to avoid the issue/not be direct for her sake.

[Dancer_Mom]

And no, I wouldn't concoct some unrelated story before that point. I think explaining people can have real illnesses in their minds as well as their bodies is true and helps destigmatize mental illness.

 

 That's what they did.  

 

The mother made up a story that isn't true.  For example, telling them that he died of colon cancer or heart failure and made up details related to the story as well.  I don't want to post what she made up because this is a searchable board.  I don't think I initially made that clear.

 

Withholding information till kids are older is very different than making up an alternate story - I definitely agree with that. 

 

I don't feel comfortable telling my children the made up story.  Again, I would not be telling them the whole story till they were older, I just don't want to tell them a straight up lie.

 

I edited my original post for clarity.

[Murphy101]

Is telling kids that the person died from a mental illness without mentioning suicide a lie, though? Is that different then telling a child a person died from cancer without listing off the order their organs failed and that they actually died from respiratory distress, or whatever?

Yes. If for no other reason than:

 

That could cause an unreasonable fear of mental illness. (Given that these things can sometimes run in families, I would not want to set them up for that additional problem down the road.)

 

Most mental illnesses don't end in suicide.

 

Your cancer analogy isn't very good IMO.

 

It would be more like saying a person got sick, but not tell them what from or how. Great. Now they are scared of getting sick.

 

My kids know my mother died of cancer. I've not needed to go into morbid detail for them to know that she died of lymphoma. They asked how people get cancer. I explained there's lots of reasons, but her smoking a pack a day since she was a tween sure didn't help her. They asked why she smoked then if she knew it was dangerous. I explained she didn't know when she started and it's addictive, which means they can't stop craving it very easily.

 

In general, I don't think people lie for the kids. They lie bc for whatever reasons, they just don't want to handle the fallout tears and discussion. (Which I understand bc they are also desperately trying to cope themselves.) They convince themselves it will be easier for the child when they are older, but I don't agree that it necessarily is. And that's why far too often, "older" turns into never until the kids discovers it on their own.

 

There is never going to be a better age to find out dad killed himself. There just isn't.

[Murphy101]

And I'd be upfront about it. I would tell the mom from the start that I will not participate in the lie or tell my kids to do it either. I would not blind side her with thinking I'm going to go along with it and then no go along with it. Let her know that her kids are absolutely going to meet people who know and this is bound to slip at some point and it would be best for her to handle it first.

 

Lots of hugs and coffee and wine and more hugs.

[Murphy101]

This is just going to be an awful painful talk. It just is. Does she have several kids or just one or? Ideally, I'd suggest she start with the oldest and have a private discussion, explaining the younger ones deserve to hear it from mom in private too.

 

Maybe she has a counselor, priest, good friend that can help her think how to answer some questions that I think a typical young child is going to have?

 

ETA: and if they feel they just can't handle it, I'd strongly encourage them to set a goal for discussing it. One year later maybe?

[Dancer_Mom]

And I'd be upfront about it. I would tell the mom from the start that I will not participate in the lie or tell my kids to do it either. I would not blind side her with thinking I'm going to go along with it and then no go along with it. Let her know that her kids are absolutely going to meet people who know and this is bound to slip at some point and it would be best for her to handle it first.

 

Lots of hugs and coffee and wine and more hugs.

 

 

You are right and I had this thought myself today.  When the time comes - I would never blindside their mom. 

[Dancer_Mom]

This is just going to be an awful painful talk. It just is. Does she have several kids or just one or? Ideally, I'd suggest she start with the oldest and have a private discussion, explaining the younger ones deserve to hear it from mom in private too.

 

Maybe she has a counselor, priest, good friend that can help her think how to answer some questions that I think a typical young child is going to have?

 

ETA: and if they feel they just can't handle it, I'd strongly encourage them to set a goal for discussing it. One year later maybe?

 

 

She has two the same age... pre teens.  Unfortunately, we aren't close like chat on the phone - just friendly at family get togethers.  My personal family history is a LOT more troubled than my husband's.  This was huge for his family and unfortunately all too familiar for me.  They are incredibly kind, loving people but I do feel worlds apart from them when it comes to certain life experiences. 

[HRAAB]

I'm wondering how you keep a parent's suicide secret from a child unless they were very young. My very good friend's dh committed suicide when their only dd was 10. I don't see how it would have been possible to keep it secret by making up another story. Everyone knew: his co-workers, grandparents, friends, neighbors. Maybe not many people were aware of the circumstances surrounding his (uncle's) death, but I think it would be impossible to get everyone involved on the same page. I don't know how old these children are other than the OP said they were pre teens. I know there are families with big secrets, and I never understand how that works.

[MinivanMom]

I'm wondering how you keep a parent's suicide secret from a child unless they were very young. My very good friend's dh committed suicide when their only dd was 10. I don't see how it would have been possible to keep it secret by making up another story. Everyone knew: his co-workers, grandparents, friends, neighbors. Maybe not many people were aware of the circumstances surrounding his (uncle's) death, but I think it would be impossible to get everyone involved on the same page. I don't know how old these children are other than the OP said they were pre teens. I know there are families with big secrets, and I never understand how that works.

 

I've seen it kept a secret.  It's not that hard to do.  I mean how often do the deceased person's co-workers talk to the kid?  The only people you really need to get on board are the extended family and the school teacher.  It's even easier to keep secret if you move.   Suicide is so shameful in our society that most people would never bring it up anyway.

 

I agree that you don't need to tell small children every detail, but you also shouldn't outright lie to them.

[Murphy101]

I can see it. Some families just have a vibe of don't ask questions. Mine was like that and I decidedly did not fit in, black sheep from the start. LOL

 

Believe it or not, there are families where those kids would just be told, "dad died/had an accident" and that's all.

 

Now I can understand being that way with people outside the immediate family. I'm actually very much that way.

 

But in my house? Nope. I don't have the energy or creativity to keep or make up secrets. Besides, real life beats fiction every time.

[gardenmom5]

 The mother made up a story that isn't true. 

Withholding information till kids are older is very different than making up an alternate story - I definitely agree with that. 

 

I don't feel comfortable telling my children the made up story. 

so don't tell your kids the made up story.  it is a lie.   You don't have to repeat it. 

 

however:  if they repeat to you the story their cousins are being fed -what do you plan on saying to your children if/when they ask about it?  that is a likely scenario, and you should plan for it - especially if you hint at the truth with your children and the stories conflict.  if you see them at holidays - do you really want that to come up for conversation at thanksgiving?

 

you also don't have to (and shouldn't given their ages) go into detail with your own kids.  by the time they are old enough to know the details - they probably won't care.

 

btw: I see nothing wrong with the mental illness leading to his death explanation. 

[gardenmom5]

 Suicide is so shameful in our society that most people would never bring it up anyway.

  I agree that you don't need to tell small children every detail, but you also shouldn't outright lie to them.

sometimes it's just so mentally exhausting trying to deal with people - or listen to attempts to give trite "words of comfort", etc. for something that is complex.  some people want to treat it as one-size-fits all, but it doesn't.  at least when you tell someone your loved one died from cancer, they're probably won't ask any questions beyond "what kind?" and then change the subject.  not so with suicide.

 

lots of people get curious- and want details, and ask questions.  some are well meaning, some are pure gossip, some want to condemn (same people condemn smokers who get lung cancer.).  

 

I can see it. Some families just have a vibe of don't ask questions. Mine was like that and I decidedly did not fit in, black sheep from the start. LOL

 

Believe it or not, there are families where those kids would just be told, "dad died/had an accident" and that's all.

 

as an adult, I've read books on childhood grief.  too little has changed in the last 40 years.  children are treated as though their feelings don't matter if a parent dies, and their grief gets swept under the rug.   I can understand the surviving parent may be overwhelmed - but someone needs to step up and consider grief counseling for the kids - no matter what the cause of death.  the kids who talked to me the most - were one's whose father's had been diagnosed with a terminal illness and they wanted to know what was coming.

[FeFe]

That could cause an unreasonable fear of mental illness. (Given that these things can sometimes run in families, I would not want to set them up for that additional problem down the road.)

 

 

True but some parents give too much truth and details. Then you create a child who has many irrational fears. My parents had too many conversations around me and with me.

 

There's certainly a balance. It's unfortunate that the family fabricated such a story but I would never go against their wishes of having their children not know the truth.

[Murphy101]

btw: I see nothing wrong with the mental illness leading to his death explanation.

 

 

 

I see nothing wrong with explaining that mental illness led to the suicide, but leaving as "he died of mental illness" is a a far cry from that.

 

 

at least when you tell someone your loved one died from cancer, they're probably won't ask any questions beyond "what kind?" and then change the subject.  not so with suicide.

 

lots of people get curious- and want details, and ask questions.  some are well meaning, some are pure gossip, some want to condemn (same people condemn smokers who get lung cancer.).  

True. And those people should have their arse handed to them in a plate. This is where I am okay with "secrets" I guess. If you aren't immediate family? His wife. His kids. You don't get to comment or ask questions or give opinions unasked for. And I probably wouldn't.

 

as an adult, I've read books on childhood grief.  too little has changed in the last 40 years.  children are treated as though their feelings don't matter if a parent dies, and their grief gets swept under the rug.   I can understand the surviving parent may be overwhelmed - but someone needs to step up and consider grief counseling for the kids - no matter what the cause of death.  the kids who talked to me the most - were one's whose father's had been diagnosed with a terminal illness and they wanted to know what was coming.

Ugh. I've seen that too. Kids know mom/dad/grandma/pea is sick, but not how bad until they are told they are dying. I do not understand why.

 

I don't think it's that the kids grief is swept under the rug. I think people just have to get through it as best they can and expect young people to be more resilient. Which they are, but that doesn't mean they aren't affected.

[Whereneverever]

My answer with that was when I thought we were discussing the under nine or ten year old set. I said when I realized this was older kids more detail was called for.

 

I realize for some people that's still too little information.

[gardenmom5]

 

I don't think it's that the kids grief is swept under the rug. I think people just have to get through it as best they can and expect young people to be more resilient. Which they are, but that doesn't mean they aren't affected.

kids aren't more resilient, adults just think they are.  children have less experience with life and the world, which is required for *perspective*.  they have none.  when it is an immediate family member (re: parent/sibling) that is an enormous change in their life.   adults are experienced, independent, and far better equipped to understand the ramifications and how things fit into the bigger picture.  children do NOT.  when it is a parent, they are still dependent upon that parent for their daily living needs. now that parent upon whom they are *dependent* - is gone.  an adult child is living on their own, no matter how close they are (or dependent they think they are) to their parent who dies when they are an adult, it is not nearly the same because they are already living independently of that parent.

 

when my father died, my mother was very overwhelmed.  as far as I was concerned - my world had ended.  because my mother was so overwhelmed, I was ignored.  not only was my father gone - my mother had even less time for me than before. my maternal grandmother flat out told me to stop crying. contact with my paternal grandmother was cut off.  I became suicidal as a 13yo.

 

the kids in the OP's post need to be treated with care and compassion.

[Murphy101]

I never said they should not be treated with care and compassion.

 

Being honest with them is not contrary to treating them with care and compassion.

[gardenmom5]

I never said they should not be treated with care and compassion.

 

Being honest with them is not contrary to treating them with care and compassion.

I didn't mean to say you did.  (I've a pounding headache at the moment, and it's making my brain fuzzy.)  part was a heads up to the OP that yes - these kids are being lied to, but they are in more need than the adults close to them probably think.

children need more support than they often get - because people think children are resilient. 

 

there's being honest (and of course, withholding information and lies are two different things.) - and there is being realistic about what they can deal with - and making sure they get the support they need.  many kids have no clue what they need (and it makes it worse if the adults in their life lie to them), they don't know how to verbalize what they are experiencing - and if they have adults lying to them (they'll find out eventually, and it will hurt the relationship with the liar), they will be even less inclined to say anything, thus internalizing things more.

[Melissa in Australia]

I think it's important to wait to tell your kids until they are old enough to be boundaried and tactful around their cousins -- and to give specific instructions about what that looks like. There is a difference between privacy and secrecy. Nobody should find out from a cousin.

 

I currently describe suicide as "death resulting from sickness: specifically a mental illness" this casts well as, 'They died because their brain wasn't working properly. Some mental illnesses turn out to be fatal, just like some physical illnesses turn out to be fatal.' Kids who are young concrete thinkers think of that in physical terms 'something wrong with the brain, so they died'. Later the explanation can be expanded to include that the thing that was wrong with the brain had to do with depression and the will to live, therefore the person-in-illness irrationally chose to do something that ended their life.

 

I find even adults receive great comfort from the idea of a 'fatal mental illness' (as opposed to the idea of suicide as a free choice, rationally made, by a person not suffering any debilitation that compromised their agency with respect to that choice).

As a person who had her father commit suicide, I would have been extremely upset if someone said this to me. I would even to this day be upset if someone told me this. Not everybody who commits suicide has a mental illness, or a sick brain.

[Melissa in Australia]

I don't lie to my kids. If there's a family situation that needs to be addressed , then I address it in an age appropriate way. If there are details that I feel are too mature for them , then I explain to them that I can tell them more when they are older.... There are certain things children do not need to know but I won't lie about it. Kids can handle the truth most of the time. We have several family situations right now that my kids know about.

:iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:

 

Thank you for saying this

[Melissa in Australia]

Is telling kids that the person died from a mental illness without mentioning suicide a lie, though? Is that different then telling a child a person died from cancer without listing off the order their organs failed and that they actually died from respiratory distress, or whatever?

Not everyone who commits suicide has a mental illness. so it would be a lie.

[Melissa in Australia]

Yes. If for no other reason than:

 

That could cause an unreasonable fear of mental illness. (Given that these things can sometimes run in families, I would not want to set them up for that additional problem down the road.)

 

Most mental illnesses don't end in suicide.

 

Your cancer analogy isn't very good IMO.

 

It would be more like saying a person got sick, but not tell them what from or how. Great. Now they are scared of getting sick.

 

My kids know my mother died of cancer. I've not needed to go into morbid detail for them to know that she died of lymphoma. They asked how people get cancer. I explained there's lots of reasons, but her smoking a pack a day since she was a tween sure didn't help her. They asked why she smoked then if she knew it was dangerous. I explained she didn't know when she started and it's addictive, which means they can't stop craving it very easily.

 

In general, I don't think people lie for the kids. They lie bc for whatever reasons, they just don't want to handle the fallout tears and discussion. (Which I understand bc they are also desperately trying to cope themselves.) They convince themselves it will be easier for the child when they are older, but I don't agree that it necessarily is. And that's why far too often, "older" turns into never until the kids discovers it on their own.

 

There is never going to be a better age to find out dad killed himself. There just isn't.

:iagree:

Thank you for posting this

[tammieb]

My kids were 10 and 7 when my dad killed himself. My hubby & I both come from dysfunctional families! Mine lies about everything, his lives in complete denial. A few years ago we made the commitment to tell our kids the truth about whatever comes into our lives, and that day was no different.

 

It was the hardest thing we've ever done. My son asked "how" and my hubby told him -- gently but honestly. I was in SHOCK when he told him the complete truth. My son fell apart! We sat there & held him for what seemed like hours (actually about an hour), while he wailed uncontrollably and we could do nothing to ease the pain. It was the best thing we could have done! After that day, there were no unanswered questions. My children are able to talk about it without fear of any reprocussion or finding out something new or different from what they were told when it happened.

 

The person who wrote "there will never be a better age for them to be told the truth," that's exactly right.

 

I wish you the grace & understanding to handle this in the best way possible for your family. Your family will be stronger for it.

[bolt.]

I might be misinformed on the nature of mental illness. I was under the impression that suicidal thoughts and intentions were among the criteria that defined depressive and major depressive disorder. Therefore, if someone has committed suicide, isn't it reasonable to assume that before they did it, they has the thought to do it, and formed the intention? That inducates the diagnosis as far as I understand it... Not that a diagnosis at that point helps anyone.

 

Are people here saying that there are people who are not depressed, but in full rationality, with no sense of 'I don't want to live any more' commit suicide?

 

Or is it that some of you don't consider depression to be a mental illness?

 

Do you mean perhaps the 'giving your own life to save others' kind of action? (I don't think of that as suicide, but it might fit the technical definition, possibly.)

 

Or maybe people on drugs? That's chemistry more than mental illness, I guess.

 

I don't understand the comments at all, but I'd like to.

[gardenmom5]

I might be misinformed on the nature of mental illness. I was under the impression that suicidal thoughts and intentions were among the criteria that defined depressive and major depressive disorder. Therefore, if someone has committed suicide, isn't it reasonable to assume that before they did it, they has the thought to do it, and formed the intention? That inducates the diagnosis as far as I understand it... Not that a diagnosis at that point helps anyone.

 

Are people here saying that there are people who are not depressed, but in full rationality, with no sense of 'I don't want to live any more' commit suicide?

 

Or is it that some of you don't consider depression to be a mental illness?

 

Do you mean perhaps the 'giving your own life to save others' kind of action? (I don't think of that as suicide, but it might fit the technical definition, possibly.)

 

Or maybe people on drugs? That's chemistry more than mental illness, I guess.

 

I don't understand the comments at all, but I'd like to.

people kill themselves for multiple reasons.  it's not always about major depression/chemical imbalance of feeling utterly worthless and just wanting to end the pain.  people will kill themselves to avoid being held accountable for something  (e.g. cases where someone about to be arrested for a major crime - kill themselves instead).  to "hurt" someone else. (e.g.  cases of murder/suicide)  those two types of cases will occasionally make the news.  there are others. 

 

depression itself has multiple causes/triggers - and forms.   major stress can have the same disruptive effect upon the brain chemistry as depression. but the person doesn't necessarily  "feel worthless" and "want to die", even though the stress may push them into behaviors that could end their life.  not all depression responds to antidepressants.  (they only treat a very narrow idea of brain chemistry.)

 

the prevalent attitude that only people who "feel worthless, and want to die", kill themselves is actually rather dangerous in itself.  it means those who are suffering, but don't feel worthless or want to die, may be overlooked for the help they need.

 

I wasn't "lied to", nothing was directly addressed by my mother (the fact she was sobbing uncontrollably, she didn't have to say anything.).  I got the truth in a roundabout and piecemeal way.  honestly, I deeply resented those who told me as a 12 yo my father killed himself.  I got to wonder what I did wrong that he'd abandon me, and what I could have done differently to make him stay.  I felt guilt for having gone to a friends house to play that day.  (the next time I was there - I had a profound anxiety attack, but didn't understand why - and the parents had to stop everything to take me home.  because she didn't understand where it came from, the mother wasn't very polite about it either.)  Maybe if I had shown him my father's day gift instead of keeping it a surprise (yeah, he died on father's day), he'd still be there. 

 

One thing I've learned in retrospect (as I've talked to people who lost their father's as children, or whose parents divorced), death of a parent from suicide is a different pain than death of a parent from cancer/accident/etc.  it adds in some of the same pain the child of ugly divorce feels into the mix.  No *child* should EVER have to deal with that.

[Catherine]

I am really unsure how I'd handle telling this kind of information to a child. Fortunately, it has not come up for us in any of the ways that have been described so far. Several years ago, my middle son's music lesson partner of 3 years died in a horrible house fire. She and my ds were both 11. I told him and he was absolutely shocked, stunned, speechless for a long time. He buried his face in a pillow. He only asked me a few questions, but when her memorial service (doubly sad because her brother died too so it was for both of them) was held, he decided to attend it with me. I think this was very healing for both of us, but terribly, terribly sad.

 

However, I think there are different meanings to tragic and shocking events and I don't know that I'd handle them all the same way. Some of you may remember that my young adult nephew lived with us for 3 years (he's back, BTW!). His father, dh's brother, died unexpectedly in a motorcycle accident the week before dn turned 16. Dn's stepmother thought it fitting to share with him that his father was bisexual and gave him a number of specific details (very graphic ones) about how she discovered this. I was so angry at the time-she was doing this, IMO, to unburden herself of feelings about her relationship with her dead husband. These details were private and I am very sure my BIL would have wanted to share with his children when they were fully adults and mature enough to begin to understand why he might do such things-and I don't think he ever intended them to learn "gory details" any more than married couples share specifics about their sexual activity with their children. Argh. At the time I thought she was using him, a 15 year old, as a place to vent her own sad and confused feelings and it seemed very inappropriate.

 

The bottom line for me is that honesty is always something I strive for, while also preserving my child's sense of safety and other people's reasonable expectation of privacy.

[Melissa in Australia]

My kids were 10 and 7 when my dad killed himself. My hubby & I both come from dysfunctional families! Mine lies about everything, his lives in complete denial. A few years ago we made the commitment to tell our kids the truth about whatever comes into our lives, and that day was no different.

 

It was the hardest thing we've ever done. My son asked "how" and my hubby told him -- gently but honestly. I was in SHOCK when he told him the complete truth. My son fell apart! We sat there & held him for what seemed like hours (actually about an hour), while he wailed uncontrollably and we could do nothing to ease the pain. It was the best thing we could have done! After that day, there were no unanswered questions. My children are able to talk about it without fear of any reprocussion or finding out something new or different from what they were told when it happened.

 

The person who wrote "there will never be a better age for them to be told the truth," that's exactly right.

 

I wish you the grace & understanding to handle this in the best way possible for your family. Your family will be stronger for it.

thank you for posting this