fairfarmhand Posted September 24, 2013 Share Posted September 24, 2013 I wasn't allowed tampons either (granted, some of this was TSS concerns) and my undergarments were only allowed to be white or beige. I bought a black demi bra a few months before I was to be married (he was in basic training with the USAF) and my mother saw it...her response, "are you having sex?" because of the black bra? No, I wasn't having sex. Though she had no problem telling my stepfather that she thought I was and then turning around and telling me that I need to be fairwarned that he was thinking about taking one of the guns and killing me before the holidays were over with. I finally got tossed out when I was found defending myself...my brother had started taking to hitting me with objects and his fists. A few months earlier he had hit our mother and I jumped his case for it....guess who stepdad got pissed at...yep, apparently she asked for it and I should not have stepped in. I wasn't even allowed to see a doctor alone...with my mother would have been fine, but my mother and stepfather were standing there watching and I had to completely disrobe while the military doctor, male, discussed what stage my pubic hair was. Talk about humiliating. I go in with my children under a certain age. At a certain age, I allow them the privacy of a curtain so I'm not watching, but can still answer questions. At a certain age, I allow them with the doctor on their own. I understand that certain religious groups can be nutty, but the fact that a doctor, who should be an advocate for patients and respecter of their privacy, participated in this humiliation makes my blood boil. This board has made me ever so grateful for my kids' PCP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted September 24, 2013 Share Posted September 24, 2013 Mommaduck, I am horrified with your experience with the military doctor and your step-father. I am appalled that the doctor allowed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 It's so interesting to read both these threads.... I'd gone to the Basic Seminars as a teen and YA and taken in the materials so substantially that they were part of a subconscious belief system...that was slowly being changed, but I kept having these questions about my own formulaic thinking and couldn't figure it out.... Then at the beginning of October, I had this epiphany when I was reading something about 'true' and 'false' confessions in the Bible...which showed how different people in the Bible had used the exact same words - but the hearts of some were not right...so the confession was worthless. Gothard recommended this confession 'formula' basically and if you didn't constantly do this, you would be in trouble spiritually...(Keeping a clear conscience is one of the seven principles). Finally this jogged my memory and I reexamined IBPL material and found that indeed, this 'fear of failure' had been so ingrained that I didn't even consciously identify it normally....I've just jettisoned that notebook! I was so busy that I wasn't on the boards, but did mention to a WTM friend about my 'discovery' who mentioned that Gothard was discussed on the boards! :-) I should have thought of looking here - but it's also great timing as I see this isn't such an old thread.... I wanted to talk about this part from Part 1 though - it's where I got 'caught' (success is what we want - right?) Just some clarification: Back before the mid-80s, Gothard was a big name in evangelical circles. I went to his basic seminar in a large sports area that was filled. However, back in the 70s and very early 80s, he wasn't as far out. Sure, he took Bible verses out of context and had a few nutty ideas, but he was almost mainstream. He provided people with a framework, albeit an often faulty framework, where people could live successful Christian lives. It was comforting to people to be given a formula on how to make marriage and childrearing successful. We do want 'success'...but this can be a trap if it becomes the most important thing, the idea guiding all decisions....The 'god' of Gothard is 'success'...either consciously or subconsciously....and the modus operendi is 'fear' "Every problem in life can be traced to seven non-optional principles" - so then if you don't follow his principles, you'll fail and have continual problems...very scary, especially if living in tenuous circumstances... As people have reiterated in the various ways this is imposed, is so subversive....You get this deep-seated fear that if you do something 'wrong' you'll have problems....So life becomes one of trying to avoid 'problems', which is a natural human tendency anyway - but now elevated unnaturally higher. It's like these tentacles of diseased thought that have infiltrated my brain - getting rid of them is not so easy! But reading of different peoples' experiences is helpful - thank you Faith for starting these threads! Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Joan, yes, it took me years to realise that my thinking had been warped by this also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holly IN Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Wow this is all making sense to me why my hubby's parents hate me so much! Hubby said they do follow "some" of Gothard's teachings. (not so much anymore as his mom now wears pants and has short hair by Gothard's standards). However I was treated horribly by them when I refused Gothard's teachings. I told FIL that is crazy talk. Told him none of what he says is in scripture. So sad to read this!! Now it all makes sense why my FIL and MIL do not like me at all. Why they ignore my kids all the time. Why they do not like coming over to my house. Why they ignore me when I go to their house. sigh! now it is all clear to me.... DH's mom told him the only reason he believes what he believes now is because it is my religion. She told him that this is not his religion. He was furious when she told him that. He blew her off and said that he rejected their religion long before he met me. Glad to read this OP's posting on this. Holly IN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Wow this is all making sense to me why my hubby's parents hate me so much! Hubby said they do follow "some" of Gothard's teachings. (not so much anymore as his mom now wears pants and has short hair by Gothard's standards). However I was treated horribly by them when I refused Gothard's teachings. I told FIL that is crazy talk. Told him none of what he says is in scripture. So sad to read this!! Now it all makes sense why my FIL and MIL do not like me at all. Why they ignore my kids all the time. Why they do not like coming over to my house. Why they ignore me when I go to their house. sigh! now it is all clear to me.... DH's mom told him the only reason he believes what he believes now is because it is my religion. She told him that this is not his religion. He was furious when she told him that. He blew her off and said that he rejected their religion long before he met me. Glad to read this OP's posting on this. Holly IN :grouphug: FWIW, this is not always a Gothard thingy. My MIL told hubby he should divorce me shortly after we were married too. My sin? I had him stray from the Methodist church... his grandpa (her dad) had been a Methodist minister and they had always been Methodist. We got married in a Methodist church (even though it wasn't the church we went to), so she was happy then, but when she found out we didn't actually attend a Methodist church... she was livid. It took many, many years (and a bit of Alzheimers settling in - seriously) before I felt she accepted me. The rest of the family was fine - well - other than her identical twin. We didn't even leave protestant Christianity... and the Methodist church, itself, is not an "exclusive" denomination with their preaching, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 :grouphug: FWIW, this is not always a Gothard thingy. My MIL told hubby he should divorce me shortly after we were married too. My sin? I had him stray from the Methodist church... his grandpa (her dad) had been a Methodist minister and they had always been Methodist. We got married in a Methodist church (even though it wasn't the church we went to), so she was happy then, but when she found out we didn't actually attend a Methodist church... she was livid. It took many, many years (and a bit of Alzheimers settling in - seriously) before I felt she accepted me. The rest of the family was fine - well - other than her identical twin. We didn't even leave protestant Christianity... and the Methodist church, itself, is not an "exclusive" denomination with their preaching, etc. It's about control, that's what it is. You could easily find people in any Protestant denomination who feel that they are the "only" ones, and that marrying outside is a serious problem. My very nominal Methodist mother never did approve of DH, but not being Methodist was just one of his many faults in her eyes. The bottom line was that I didn't marry who she wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 It's about control, that's what it is. You could easily find people in any Protestant denomination who feel that they are the "only" ones, and that marrying outside is a serious problem. My very nominal Methodist mother never did approve of DH, but not being Methodist was just one of his many faults in her eyes. The bottom line was that I didn't marry who she wanted. My MIL actually liked me when we were dating... it wasn't until after the wedding that she started to realize how much I was corrupting her beloved son. ;) There were more ways than just a different church... some were probably due to my also being a Yankee (she's from the south - I'm not). I wasn't always "tolerant" of some of her views - esp racism. I now use one of our experiences to teach kids about the idiocy of racism... We were at a shopping mall with an indoor ice skating ring and were standing there watching the skaters. One young lady was "darker," but it wasn't evident whether she was a different race or merely had a dark tan. My MIL was totally focused on figuring out which it was - spending some serious time comparing her own tanned arm to her (from a distance), and asking me what I thought. (Shuffling feet...) I kind of told her what I thought... something to the effect of "How can your impression of someone depend upon your "final" answer here??? We don't even know the girl. She's the same girl whether she is dark from a tan or not." It wasn't what she wanted to hear. Couple my radical beliefs (in other ways too) AND steering her beloved son away from their church... I was akin to a ______. (Part of it probably was that I wasn't nearly as tactful then in my young 20s as I've learned to be now...) She is over it now, but it definitely took the Alzheimers to start changing things. Now she probably can't remember how I've changed him... and he has become very successful (in spite of me, I'm sure)... and our kids have done well (undoubtedly his genetics)... but in general, she remembers enough "good" stuff with his "success" that I'm ok now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 My MIL actually liked me when we were dating... it wasn't until after the wedding that she started to realize how much I was corrupting her beloved son. ;) There were more ways than just a different church... some were probably due to my also being a Yankee (she's from the south - I'm not). I wasn't always "tolerant" of some of her views - esp racism. I now use one of our experiences to teach kids about the idiocy of racism... We were at a shopping mall with an indoor ice skating ring and were standing there watching the skaters. One young lady was "darker," but it wasn't evident whether she was a different race or merely had a dark tan. My MIL was totally focused on figuring out which it was - spending some serious time comparing her own tanned arm to her (from a distance), and asking me what I thought. (Shuffling feet...) I kind of told her what I thought... something to the effect of "How can your impression of someone depend upon your "final" answer here??? We don't even know the girl. She's the same girl whether she is dark from a tan or not." It wasn't what she wanted to hear. Couple my radical beliefs (in other ways too) AND steering her beloved son away from their church... I was akin to a ______. (Part of it probably was that I wasn't nearly as tactful then in my young 20s as I've learned to be now...) She is over it now, but it definitely took the Alzheimers to start changing things. Now she probably can't remember how I've changed him... and he has become very successful (in spite of me, I'm sure)... and our kids have done well (undoubtedly his genetics)... but in general, she remembers enough "good" stuff with his "success" that I'm ok now. It's good that things evened out for you. Having a bit of closure helps. My side only got worse with time, and we went no-contact with some family members. Over time I was vindicated, especially when they were talking about the state mental hospital for my mother. Sadly, there are still broader family issues remaining even though both of my parents are gone. Lessons to be learned there! I hope that my children have picked up the concepts of self-respect and boundaries in relationships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 It's good that things evened out for you. Having a bit of closure helps. My side only got worse with time, and we went no-contact with some family members. Over time I was vindicated, especially when they were talking about the state mental hospital for my mother. Sadly, there are still broader family issues remaining even though both of my parents are gone. Lessons to be learned there! I hope that my children have picked up the concepts of self-respect and boundaries in relationships. :grouphug: to go with the "like." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 :grouphug: to go with the "like." Thanks. Thankfully I married into an extremely *NORMAL* family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in TN Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 "Every problem in life can be traced to seven non-optional principles" - so then if you don't follow his principles, you'll fail and have continual problems...very scary, especially if living in tenuous circumstances... As people have reiterated in the various ways this is imposed, is so subversive....You get this deep-seated fear that if you do something 'wrong' you'll have problems....So life becomes one of trying to avoid 'problems', which is a natural human tendency anyway - but now elevated unnaturally higher. My parents don't "do" Gothard any more (they've rejected it in a way), but my mom has simply moved to a similar "healing/counseling/prayer ministry" that uses prayer formulas and visualization to get rid of all your problems. She actually has a book that goes through every sickness and disease imaginable and lists their "root causes" - usually involving unresolved anger and bitterness, with a side of selfish pride. It seems that my stomach flu last week was really caused by unresolved fear from childhood? Please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Lynn Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Not to derail the discussion, but does anyone have a link to the part 1 of this thread? Or the part 3, if there was one? Of course, I searched, but couldn't find it. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigs Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Fraught with danger this is, but you asked. So, here is an overview of my experience with ATI & Bill Gothard. PT 1 I didn't see a part 3, but I might have missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Lynn Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 My parents don't "do" Gothard any more (they've rejected it in a way), but my mom has simply moved to a similar "healing/counseling/prayer ministry" that uses prayer formulas and visualization to get rid of all your problems. She actually has a book that goes through every sickness and disease imaginable and lists their "root causes" - usually involving unresolved anger and bitterness, with a side of selfish pride. It seems that my stomach flu last week was really caused by unresolved fear from childhood? Please. Ok, I HAVE to ask - curiosity is getting me... my brain tumor is caused by??? And visualization is all I need to get rid of it? I was thinking a handful of Mojitos on the beach in Bora Bora. Could I visualize there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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