Bill Gothard & ATI Part 2

[FaithManor]

As I said in a quick follow up post in part 1, my parents were not ATI. I was clinically depressed, not eating, losing weight, had become nearly electively mute, etc. due to physical bullying and sexual harassment, and when this little "new" private school opened up, my parents were grateful to have somewhere to place me. They knew very little about it other than A. we had to wear uniforms (not a problem in and of themselves) B. it used a Christian curriculum called A.C.E. and C. It was by in large, independent study. Since I was a very advanced student in gifted classes at the PS, they thought they had hit the jackpot - not so. Except for Algebra 2 (I'd had geometry in 7th, and was in algebra 2 when moved...ACE did not offer anything beyond algebra 2 at the time, and everything else was just way too easy for me). Parent orientation really did not cover how the students would be treated or disciplined at all. It didn't elucidate the extraordinary host of things students would be disciplined for...it sounded loving, and nurturing, and in desperation to help me, it sounded good. We did not attend the church that started it, and did not even know anyone else affiliated with it, so that didn't help with getting a "good bead" on the organization. The church was independent - so no oversight nor any formal theology or dogma that had to be followed. ..well, not in the traditional sense. Little did they know they had a dogma, it was just Bill Gothard's version.

 

To my own demise, when the spiritual abuse started, I listened to what the school told me...that obviously my parents agreed with everything that was being taught, everything that was being done to us in the name of saving our souls from the devil, etc. otherwise why would they have put their children in that school? This was the message, "Of course your parents believe this. If they didn't, you wouldn't be here." Because of the depression, I was unable to put two and two together, and figure out that in this it didn't add up to four! I couldn't seem to ascertain that there was this huge gulf in culture, belief, and practice between how things were at home and how things were at school. Such is the incidiousness of depression.

 

So, I endured for far too long, though in the grand scheme of things, it was less than an entire school year. And no, my parents did not consider homeschooling because at that time in Michigan, the big court case had not been won at the Supreme Court level and nearly every county in the lower penninsula, with an eye to this case in particular, had at least one over-zealous social worker willing to press the prosecutor for action against homeschooling families who were not of the two religious sects that were historically protected from intervention - Amish and Mennonite.

 

The school was the brainchild of the senior pastor of the church for reaching out to the community with the message of ATI...a recruitment for new families. Whether or not Bill Gothard himself would have approved of the things that happened there, the reality was that after attending the Advanced Institute and seeing the concept hammered home of unquestioning obedience to ATI elders, there was no doubt in our student minds that Mr. Gothard would not have condemned them for their efforts to get the devil out of us. They were careful - no beatings, nothing that would leave a mark and get them in trouble with legal authorities, so the abuse was less obvious.

 

Girls - every day we had to kneel on the floor and prove our skirts touched the floor with hem to spare just in case the devil had gotten us in the night and we decided to cut and hem our skirts shorter. In order to keep us in line concerning "dressing like a harlot', random teenage girls would be dragged to the bathroom to remove their uniform blouses to show that they were not wearing a demi-bra, a lace bra, or a color other than white - the color of purity as told over and over again. We had to avert our eyes if the pastor or a male teacher approached in order to show our proper place as a female which was really not much above bacteria. Purses were searched for tampons to make sure we weren't defiling ourselves. I remember one of the girls who only lasted a couple of weeks at the school before they booted her for her excessive mouthiness saying to the pastor, "Why don't you take a tampon and shove it up your a** and see how much pleasure you get from it! It's about the same for us." Her father was not amused when he discovered why she was being kicked out. Good for her....getting expelled was a real blessing.

 

I won't make an exhaustive list. Emotionally is very wearing to do so. Suffice it to say after school detention with physical labor assigned, standing on a chair on our tiptoes for extended periods, being sentenced to an entire school day on our knees at the altar for our sins was normal - no food, no water, no bathroom. Well, the no bathroom thing didn't last long because the morning that I'd lost my mind and forgot to make sure I hadn't inadvertently grabbed any library book NOT on the approved list and instead just grabbed my stack and stuck it in my backpack, and they found Shakespeare, and they sentenced me to purge myself at the altar, I had pretty much had enough. In a rare moment of rebellion, when I wasn't being supervised since there were enough of us in trouble that day that they didn't have adults to be in all places at all times, I slipped my knickers off and peed on the altar bench. No one ever said anything, but they went to making sure anyone else punished in such manner had a morning and afternoon bathroom break.

 

Upon removal, I was placed in a more traditional parochial school. It wasn't Lutheran or Catholic because unfortunately most of these local parishes were too small to support a school. But, it was one started by a very large mainstream denomination that had five churches that helped get it going. All of them had elected members on the school board, which reported to the church board, which reported to superintendents, who reported to bishops. The hierarchy, while no protection against an individual who is determined to abuse a child, was a definite protection against organizational abuse because the oversight was in place to make sure that the teaching and administration adhered to mainstream Christian belief and practice. This is the same experience I have had at both Lutheran and Catholic schools in which I have taught or volunteered over the years. Perfect - nope...humans are involved, forget perfection. More accountability and more avenue for reporting problems, absolutely. This particular school was good for me. Loving, nurturing, compassionate, and grace, lots of grace. It was there that I began to heal, and it was during that time that I saw a professional therapist, a Godsend. It didn't take long to come around. I'm a bit of a social butterfly at heart and in the company of good people, was inclined to let people in...if I'd been a natural born introvert, I wonder if it wouldn't have taken much longer.

 

At any rate, just to help you understand the topics covered in the advanced seminars, and the newletters, here is a SMALL laundry list of the things that dad discovered, and which I had heard preached during the week of "brainwashing by force'.

 

Makeup - the father or husband must approve it. No colors outside the guidelines that Bill Gothard outlined, and in one of his newsletters, he does make a big deal about what is and is not okay for females to have in this regard. The woman should not buy it for herself or her daughter. The male head of household should do it.

 

Clothing - ultra conservative, no pants, no shirts above the elbow, darker colors preferred, no lace around the color, no lacey underthings, men needed to pretty much be in ties if they weren't in the barn or doing a job in which a tie would be dangerous, and to that effect, in the 90's, Gothard published a picture of himself water skiing while wearing a suit and tie as a demonstration of how a godly man should always dress!

 

No mixed swimming, and in general Gothard was okay with men and boys swimming, but not women even if it was a ladies' only event.

 

Women should not have their names on checking or savings accounts, earn any money other than cash under the table so that they did not pay into SS because they should have no retirement income of their own, all woman must always be financially dependent on her father or husband. All money belongs to men. Only specific cottage industry jobs were allowed, cake decorating, floral arranging (out of your house, you could not own a store front), sewing, and writing on Christian women's topics were the primary industries allowed. Money was to be surrendered immediately to the husband or father because a female should have no money of her own. Grocery shopping and such should be done with cash on a budget created by the husband and enforced without mercy.

 

Pads, no tampons. It was believed that in particular, a tampon was an instrument to remove a girl's virginity and he believed that the insertion of such would make the woman experience pleasure - that being of the devil as well.

 

Extended periods of abstinence to increase fertility and allow the husband to focus on the Lord. Abstinence was also thought to reduce evil spirits or forces in the house.

 

Cleansing the bloodline of impurities by repenting of unknown sins of ancestors.

 

Adoption was not completely banned, but strongly discouraged because of the unknown bloodline of the child.

 

Pearlesque "breaking of the will" through corporate punishment from infancy was encouraged. Since he was speaking in public, he was a bit careful how he worded it.

 

Eating only bread made from home ground wheat. Kosher-ish diet...promising that infertility and disease would be cured, reduced birth defects amongst the ATI population would occur, and female problems would be resolved from eating this way. Women were to control their weight and remain petite waisted to appeal to their husbands.

 

Prosperity gospel - your family will be blessed financially if you follow the way. If you aren't blessed this way, you aren't doing it right. Actually stated outloud at the conference was that this is nearly always the fault of the wife or the children, never the dad.

 

There was strong suspicion against modern medicine though not an out and out prohibition. He put out pamphlets pertaining to women's health in which there were strong words to be said about getting help outside an ATI midwife for these issues. That said, it wasn't easy to enforce or practice because there weren't many ATI midwives around anyway. Some states severely restrict those that can practice as midwives outside the Amish tradition which also made things difficult because if you found an RN who pursued her CNM or other female interested in medicine enought to pursue her lay license where those are allowed, she'd have enough medical training to say, "What the h*ll" when confronted with Bill's ideas on the subject. As a result, to my knowledge, there have not been many accusations of maternal and infant death amongst ATI families, at least official reports any way.

 

While there was certainly no admonition against men who held regular 9-5 jobs, or had college educations, and what not, there was a preference for those that owned their own businesses. The preference was because it gave the men more flexibility to work on projects for ATI or in their churches, and it meant they would be able to employ their sons and future sons-in law, which provided jobs outside of the "world" as it was perceived. Of course, doing business with the world and taking the world's money was never bad! Donating the world's money to the organization was a must. Good followers donated lots and lots of money.

 

Women's hairstyles were to be controlled by husbands and fathers. Bill himself self-acknowledged preference for long and wavy, and it was the preferred ATI hair for women. Short hair was pretty looked down upon and women were told that if they were coming into the ATI family, they needed to start growing their hair immediately.

 

Higher education was discouraged for boys, though not prohibited. It was REALLY frowned upon for girls. The school that I attended issued a statement to families within the organiation that if a woman possessed a degree of some kind that gave her a title, she should immediately cease using it. (During one chapel, the pastor's comment was that the only reason to educate a girl was so that she wouldn't grow up to be too stupid to raise boys.)

 

The ATI curriculum itself very heavily favored history - dominionist, revisionist history in which the white Anglo Saxon protestant male was a paragon of virtue - no exaggeration here. One thing dad noticed at the convention was that there wasn't a person of minority amongst the thousands, nor a person of other ethinicity that worked for Gothard. The pictures of happy families in the brochures, in the curriculum, etc. were all white families.

 

There seemed to be, as dad put it, two extremes. Men embracing it like a capsized ocean goer upon seeing the lifeboat, or guys totally not buying into it and there out of duress from their wives who thought it would create for them the perfect family, or solve their marital woes. During the men's discussion times back at the area hotels, sometimes informal things that sprang up in the lobbies or over coffee, he really didn't meet more moderate types. I'm not saying they don't exist, but since then mom and dad have personally counciled families looking to leave ATI or at least questioning why it doesn't work for them, or who have moved to the area and think our church might be a good fit for them, only to discover NOT, and we haven't met any. Those that make it through the end of the advanced seminar seem to do one of two things, run or drink the cool aid. We've harbored a 19 year old ATI run away. Her family was of the "drink the cool aid" type.

 

The devil pretty much inhabited well, just about everything. Mom thinks Gothard may have some sort of paranoia issue going on because literally, he sees the devil around every corner. The devil could be in cabbage patch dolls, troll dolls, stuffed animals, the drapes, books, your pets - he had a prohibition against owning pets - it was ridiculous. If you are beset by the devil, take stock of what new things have come into your house because the devil could inhabit any inanimate object and be transported from one place to the other this way! Dad kind of thought Gothard needed a psych consult. I think that it's just a tool used to control people and make them live in fear so they would cower to his great wisdom. People are more volunerable to spiritual abuse when fearful than when confident.

 

He essentially resurrected the Old Testament Levitical laws for Christians despite the teachings of the New Testament on that subject. He decreed that women observe the cleansing times according to the gender they birth, the cirumcision rules and times, etc. He actually stated in the conference that dad attended that he would be quite pleased if enough families were converted to ATI to take over the political processes of the nation and reinstitute stoning for rebellious wives and teenagers. He believed that some day his godly followers would rise up an army of believers and take over the government through the election process. Ugh...since then, we have had an occasional politician with ties to ATI enter the national political arena. I don't want to get this thread banned by talking about any specifics. Just to say that for someone like me, this is just about the ultimate terror. I do not have panic attacks related to ATI anything these days, but I can assure you I'd probably go ballistic in some fashion if one of these nut bars ever made it to my state legislature much less congress!

 

This is a small list. There are hundreds of newsletters addressing a huge host of topics.

 

I'll do one more part sometime tomorrow just kind of an epilogue of how things went for our family and what happened to the school.

 

Faith

[brehon]

Just. Wow.

 

 

The things I've learned on this board. Dare I say it? This somewhere north of 40, mother of 6, paramedic of almost 16 years in an area with gangs, drugs, & white supremicists feels almost naive.

 

Thank you so very much for sharing.

[Chris in VA]

So interesting, and heartbreaking, too. I'm happy you had a good outcome. You must be very resilient.

[PrincessMommy]

Very interesting.  I'd love to hear more about how your parents helped former ATI people. 

[Halftime Hope]

Wow, I had no idea.  My brother went to a small church school that did ACE for a year when he was in 6th or 7th grade (?).  It wasn't great, but it was nothing like you described.  (Just saying that if anyone thinks there is an institutional connection between ACE and ATI/Gothard, it was probably just a coincidence.)

 

Faith, I'm so thankful to have been spared what you described.  Our brushes with Ezzo and company (mostly "and company") were bad enough.  Narcissism may not be as bad as paranoid delusion and sexual harassment.

 

I should be doubly thankful, that's two really bad things I've been spared. 

[mamajudy]

Wow. I am speechless. Thank God you got out of that school.

[Hikin' Mama]

I am a Christian and I am sickened by what you shared here. I'm so thankful that you were able to get OUT of there! Why do people fall for this stuff? None of this stuff is biblical!

[BYE]

Thank you for sharing. I never really knew these types of brainwashing existed. And all these threads have got me wondering something. This should probably be a new thread but here goes. Are there any religions or cults where the control is flipped around on the men? And I don't mean cultures where woman typically have more control. I mean a religion or cult whose leader or leaders claim supernatural knowledge that gives women the authority to control men? It just seems like one of the reoccurring themes in these groups is that women will receive their salvation by giving their husbands control of their lives.

[creekland]

Wow - and thanks for sharing.  It's sad...

 

Again, I'm generally  in favor of folks being able to do as they please, but I definitely don't care for it when it affects the kids the way this group does (esp girls, but boys too if they are raised thinking this is the only "normal" and "right" way to do things).

[trulycrabby]

Thank you very much for sharing your experience. I never knew this organization existed until your posts, so I am also amazed at the things I learn about on this board.

[HRAAB]

Oh my goodness.  There were a couple of homeschooling families back in the 90's that were rumored to be followers of Gothard.  They didn't do much with the large Christian homeschooling group, but even in a conservative Christian group, they really stood out.  The only family I personally knew with ties to Gothard had since converted to Catholicism.  Even so, that family was very, very dysfunctional.  They finally ended up divorcing, and none of the children have any contact with their dad.  Pretty sad.

 

This has been very educational. 

[zoobie]

Oh my word. I'm so sorry you had to endure that!

 

Now I want to toss my wheat grinder...

[Cinder]

:grouphug:  Thanks again for sharing.

[G5052]

:grouphug:

 

Thankfully I didn't run into this myself until adulthood.  I can't imagine how confusing it would be for a teen.

 

[FaithManor]

Creekland, I too agree that between two consenting adults, live and let live. My concern is always with

the children or with the spouse who does not want to go along and feels coerced. It was ugly for the

women forced into it, conversely it was also horrible and oppressive for the husbands whose wives were

ramming it down their throats. In the course of helping ATI families, mom and dad have seen numerous

divorces mostly where the husband wanted out of the lifestyle and the wife was adamant. It is

unfortunate that our courts are very pro mother so these dads ended up with very little visitation or

custody. While Gothard is adamantly opposed to divorce, some ATI communities are suppoertive of and will

suppport women who do not leave the lifestyle if their husbands want to....I guess that obedience to hubs

only goes as far as hubs does not forsake ATI.

 

Again, otherwise its a free country. But, for the sake of children, its worth it to me to talk about.

[PeachyDoodle]

Thanks for sharing your story. You must be extremely strong to have come through all of that, and it sounds like you have truly been able to minister to some others who have been hurt by the same evils.

 

I had never heard of Bill Gothard before these threads, but he must have a far-reaching influence, or else "interpretations" of scripture similar to his are easy to come to if one is seeking power. I've heard vestiges of these things (especially in regards to women's roles, marriage/dating, etc.) across the spectrum in the evangelical church. Even my parents' (conservative) Methodist church teaches some of this stuff, albeit in a milder form. We left that church a couple of years ago, when we got tired of being berated every week for not being perfect spouses and parents -- unlike, apparently, the pastor, with his "smokin' hot" wife (his words, not mine) and their adorable 2.5 kids and dog. No white picket fence, but hey, the church paid for the house, so I guess that wasn't his fault.

 

The essence of the gospel is the umerited GRACE God bestows to raise those who are dead in their trespasses and sins to newness of life in Christ. Why anyone wants to replace that with a list of which make-up and sanitary products a woman is allowed to use is beyond me.

[lllll]

:grouphug:

[fairfarmhand]

There are no words.  It is so amazing that people can pile on all this stuff and all they need is grace.

 

 

Grace. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Mommy22alyns]

Thank you once more, Faith.   :grouphug:

[G5052]

We left that church a couple of years ago, when we got tired of being berated every week for not being perfect spouses and parents -- unlike, apparently, the pastor, with his "smokin' hot" wife (his words, not mine) and their adorable 2.5 kids and dog. No white picket fence, but hey, the church paid for the house, so I guess that wasn't his fault.

 

The essence of the gospel is the umerited GRACE God bestows to raise those who are dead in their trespasses and sins to newness of life in Christ. Why anyone wants to replace that with a list of which make-up and sanitary products a woman is allowed to use is beyond me.

 

Some years ago I walked out of a sermon that was blaming all of the ills of society on fathers.  Furthermore, he also said that if a woman is in charge making any of the major decisions of the family, it will come to ruin because woman don't know how to make decisions and manage the finances.  So everything bad in our society was from fathers not doing their "duty" and women not doing their "duty."  Everything.  

 

I walked out with our small children and never stayed again for that particular speaker. Thankfully they moved away a few months later, and that influence didn't return to the pulpit although we still have a few families with ATI leanings in the congregation.

[CupOCoffee]

Thank you for your insight into this.  My parents dabbled a bit in Gothard, but it never really took -- step Mom wanted/needed too much control over the family I suppose.  I know they went to some of the seminars, I have a vague memory of that big red binder...was that for Basic Youth Conference?

 

 

My family had it's own weird issues, and I am estranged from them, but at least we never had to go through all the Gothard cr*p.

 

~coffee~

[*Michelle*]

My goodness. I can't even imagine.

[Luanne]

I don't know that ACE is actually connected to Gothard.  I do know that ACE is far inferior to other curriculums out there.  I have a cousin who went all the way through (part time in a private church school and the rest of the time at home) using ACE.  She hated it and did not get a very good education.

[Susan in TN]

I wonder if Gothard ever read much Stephen King, or maybe saw a lot of 1970's horror movies?  A lot of what he was afraid of demon-wise sounds straight out of that genre.  We've got one word for you there, sir, and that word is "fiction".  :)

 

I went to a basic seminar with my family as a 12yo(?) and my parents requested that dh and I attend the basic seminar before we got married, which we did and had some really good laughs over his ideas of godly music and other things.  And that was pretty much the last of my involvement.  I have relatives who have been very, very involved in ATI and their advanced seminars and homeschooling curriculum.  However, it does not seem that the kids (now grown) or parents have any involvement with them any more.  The daughter is a young, single professional with a law degree and is on a rowing team.  I had no idea of some of the sad laws they burden people with, but I've known of other programs and organizations that reflect ATI in many ways.

[PrincessMommy]

Oh my word. I'm so sorry you had to endure that!

 

Now I want to toss my wheat grinder...

 

This made me laugh!!  I felt that same way.

[Twigs]

… The essence of the gospel is the umerited GRACE God bestows to raise those who are dead in their trespasses and sins to newness of life in Christ. Why anyone wants to replace that with a list of which make-up and sanitary products a woman is allowed to use is beyond me.

:iagree:

 

… Grace. Nothing more, nothing less.

:iagree:

[Onceuponatime]

I wonder if Gothard ever read much Stephen King, or maybe saw a lot of 1970's horror movies?  A lot of what he was afraid of demon-wise sounds straight out of that genre.  We've got one word for you there, sir, and that word is "fiction".  :)

 

 .

 

Well...my Gothardite friends were into Frank Peretti's books for a while. Lots of demons following people around waiting to trip them up in those books. "Spiritual Warfare."

[DawnM]

Wow, that was so thorough and well written.  Thank you for taking the time to do it!  

 

I grew up VERY conservative and what I thought was legalistic.....but my family has nothing on a true Gothardite!

[maize]

Thanks for sharing your experience, this has been very informative.

[Ellie]

I don't know that ACE is actually connected to Gothard.  I do know that ACE is far inferior to other curriculums out there.  I have a cousin who went all the way through (part time in a private church school and the rest of the time at home) using ACE.  She hated it and did not get a very good education.

 

It isn't. I've known quite a few people whose dc attended ACE schools and who never had those kinds of problems.

[LucyStoner]

If I had a husband like this (in some alternate reality) I think the first thing I would do, even before running and divorcing, would be to shave my head, put on a hot pink lace demi bra and decorate the house with garlands made from tampons.

[mommaduck]

My husband was on the board of a school that used ACE. Every single graduate had to take remedial classes at community college. By the time they hit higher grades, the math and science were garbage. The PACES were such that kids could fly through them, extremely basic (ridiculously so) and would be left with nothing to do. There was no challenge. Do kids go through these schools and "do fine"?  "Do fine" is subjective. Do fine as far as passing the curriculum? Sure (honestly, it's not hard). Do fine in college? Some kids have a natural knack to pick up and go where they need to and others have had additional outside help. There are many though that test for college courses and are sent through remedial. Some people consider this not a problem. However, it shows the students weren't adequately prepared for college and definitely not for university. It doesn't mean these kids can't succeed, it just means they were not prepared.

[sunflowerlady]

Regarding ACE curriculum-I used the math paces for my dd for a few years. They were a good fit for her since math is not her best subject and it allowed her to progress with less frustration. They have redone and updated many of the subjects at most levels and they are now less "easy".

 

As far as college and career success, I know of two stories personally. There was a home school mom who used to post online. She had been to ACE schools and she said she had gone on to college and finished nursing school. Also dh and I have an IRL friend who attended ACE school. He went into the Navy, studied computers, worked for IBM at one point and now runs his own computer business. I have no idea if either of them needed remedial classes.

 

I know ACE has a negative rep here and on other boards but I think it is a curriculum that is overall pretty good.

[FaithManor]

I don't want this to turn into an A.C.E. curriculum discussion. I mentioned it in my post as part of a greater picture of the school as a whole not being a good fit for me academically and spiritually/emotionally, but due to some hedging about how the school was operated and the curriculum used, that my parents assumed it would be not realizing that in the 1980's, A.C.E. curriculum did not include advanced topics and I was already well beyond what was offered so their "independent study" claim was not helpful. I had been in the gifted program at the PS and was taking high school level work in 7th grade in nearly every subject so again, it was a comment on the bigger picture.

 

We'll go back to the other discussion now that we've rabbit trailed.

 

Faith

[Guest]

Faith, thank you again for having the courage to post about this. Much respect.

[SadieMarie]

It sounds really S&M ish to me, all that control and submission crap.  Just wrap it up in religion to make it OK or something.  

[hillfarm]

Thanks for posting this. Your insights are very interesting.

 

I think what bothers me the most about this is the fact that there are so many people who are willing to buy into it. Why are there so many who are willing to surrender their free will to some "authority"? Who are willing to treat their loved ones in such a harsh manner without a second thought. Who are willing to force such inappropriate punishments on students or congregants, that are in such direct contrast to the brotherly love called for in the Bible.

 

It scares me to think how vulnerable we are as a society to leaders like this, regardless of what religion or belief system they attach themselves to. If our children never learn to think critically and examine evidence thoroughly, if they never learn how to do their own, independent research, then we are a crop ripe for the picking. How frightening.

[MyThreeSons]

 

As I said in the other thread, we spent several years in a church that was heavily influenced by Mr. Gothard. Some of my observations, some of which are somewhat different from what the OP describes:

 

Our church had an annual camping trip at a lakeside campground or campground with a pool. There was definitely "mixed" swimming taking place, although we all knew that women and girls ought to be wearing very modest swimwear. But, I also remember that our pastor's son was on the diving team at the local community college, and his mother would not go to the meets, because she "didn't want to see him dressed like that". The pastor went and cheered for his son.

 

Definitely heard a lot about the cash-only, no-debt policy. I find it ironic that in one of the staunchest ATI families I know, the husband is a mortgage broker. He helped us refinance our home. And another guy is a realtor who regularly refers buyers to this broker. While both of their families are cash-only, they make a living off of others borrowing money.

 

One very strong ATI family that I have sort of kept up with through Facebook has a son who just received a Master's degree in some sort of engineering. But you're right -- most of the guys seem to go into the trades. Not that there is anything wrong with the trades, but it seems to be disproportionate.

 

I was the nursery coordinator at our church. It was almost impossible to find women to work in the nursery, because most of them subscribed to the "I'm training my baby to sit quietly through the church service" program. My own kids were in the nursery, and the kids of those who were serving elsewhere, so I was pretty much the only nursery worker three out of four services, at least.

 

There was definitely a cookie-cutter mentality about kids. There was no accounting for differences of temperament.

 

When we finally decided to homeschool our oldest ds for kindergarten, one of my church friends told me how glad she was, because if we had sent him to the public school, her kids would no longer have been allowed to play with mine. (I think this was more of an Ezzo influence than Gothard, but there is a lot of overlap in the two.)

 

These folks tend to be die-hard, unwavering in their support of Mr. Gothard and his teachings. They will not tolerate anyone questioning what he says, nor listen to any criticism. Errors of fact in ATI curriculum materials (not ACE) were not corrected when pointed out.

 

I do know several families that have broken away from that church and its teachings, and look back with wonder that they ever bought into it all. However, several other families are still hanging onto it.

[Mommyfaithe]

:grouphug:

 

Thankfully I didn't run into this myself until adulthood. I can't imagine how confusing it would be for a teen.

Oh, man. I agree!!!

[LucyStoner]

It sounds really S&M ish to me, all that control and submission crap. Just wrap it up in religion to make it OK or something.

S&M minus the fun and sexual satisfaction.

[SadieMarie]

S&M minus the fun and sexual satisfaction.

For the women. I bet Gothard is getting off in a big way. Am I the only one who sees this as largely about sexual control of women instead of religion? I wonder what the Taliban's position is on tampons. Lets train teenage girls to readily submit to disrobing so their underwear can be inspected and that they are not in charge of what goes into their vaginas. That's the way to raise them to be righteous.

[LucyStoner]

Which is all the more creepy as the dude isn't married. Yet he dishes out advice about and to women like he is some sort of expert. It helps to joke sometimes but honestly it makes me very sad for people living it. That article about a wife sent to reeducation camp...she had post partum depression. That was her main "you not living up to your duties" problem. I can't fathom having anyone harangue me when I was at my lowest point with ppd. I have a husband who wrapped me up in love and got me to the doctor and helped cushion my recovery so lovingly and completely. It makes me shudder to imagine otherwise.

[BYE]

For the women. I bet Gothard is getting off in a big way. Am I the only one who sees this as largely about sexual control of women instead of religion? I wonder what the Taliban's position is on tampons. Lets train teenage girls to readily submit to disrobing so their underwear can be inspected and that they are not in charge of what goes into their vaginas. That's the way to raise them to be righteous.

I totally agree! It always seems to be about controlling women.

[mommaduck]

For the women. I bet Gothard is getting off in a big way. Am I the only one who sees this as largely about sexual control of women instead of religion? I wonder what the Taliban's position is on tampons. Lets train teenage girls to readily submit to disrobing so their underwear can be inspected and that they are not in charge of what goes into their vaginas. That's the way to raise them to be righteous.

 

I wasn't allowed tampons either (granted, some of this was TSS concerns) and my undergarments were only allowed to be white or beige. I bought a black demi bra a few months before I was to be married (he was in basic training with the USAF) and my mother saw it...her response, "are you having sex?" because of the black bra? No, I wasn't having sex. Though she had no problem telling my stepfather that she thought I was and then turning around and telling me that I need to be fairwarned that he was thinking about taking one of the guns and killing me before the holidays were over with. I finally got tossed out when I was found defending myself...my brother had started taking to hitting me with objects and his fists. A few months earlier he had hit our mother and I jumped his case for it....guess who stepdad got pissed at...yep, apparently she asked for it and I should not have stepped in.

 

I wasn't even allowed to see a doctor alone...with my mother would have been fine, but my mother and stepfather were standing there watching and I had to completely disrobe while the military doctor, male, discussed what stage my pubic hair was. Talk about humiliating. I go in with my children under a certain age. At a certain age, I allow them the privacy of a curtain so I'm not watching, but can still answer questions. At a certain age, I allow them with the doctor on their own.

[swimmermom3]

Creekland, I too agree that between two consenting adults, live and let live. My concern is always with

the children or with the spouse who does not want to go along and feels coerced. It was ugly for the

women forced into it, conversely it was also horrible and oppressive for the husbands whose wives were

ramming it down their throats. In the course of helping ATI families, mom and dad have seen numerous

divorces mostly where the husband wanted out of the lifestyle and the wife was adamant. It is

unfortunate that our courts are very pro mother so these dads ended up with very little visitation or

custody. While Gothard is adamantly opposed to divorce, some ATI communities are suppoertive of and will

suppport women who do not leave the lifestyle if their husbands want to....I guess that obedience to hubs

only goes as far as hubs does not forsake ATI.

 

Again, otherwise its a free country. But, for the sake of children, its worth it to me to talk about.

 

Faith, thank you for sharing your experience.

 

I found it interesting that what appears to pull so many people in is the promise of a stronger, "better" family, yet the methodology employed to accomplish the ideal has an almost 1984ish feel to it. Children are subjected to abuse and humiliation; wives are reduced to the status of a child with a servant's duties, and even the man has restrictions on the type of work he can do and his sexual relations with his own wife. Every step seems to be designed to rob followers of their human dignity and to alienate family members from each other. Everyone is on unstable footing and removed from the better parts of familial reactions. With a lack of unity in a family, it would be much more difficult for anyone to leave.

[SadieMarie]

Faith, thank you for sharing your experience.

 

I found it interesting that what appears to pull so many people in is the promise of a stronger, "better" family, yet the methodology employed to accomplish the ideal has an almost 1984ish feel to it. Children are subjected to abuse and humiliation; wives are reduced to the status of a child with a servant's duties, and even the man has restrictions on the type of work he can do and his sexual relations with his own wife. Every step seems to be designed to rob followers of their human dignity and to alienate family members from each other. Everyone is on unstable footing and removed from the better parts of familial reactions. With a lack of unity in a family, it would be much more difficult for anyone to leave.

OK, this is a CULT that you are describing.

 

Faith, I am glad you got out that school and are talking about this. Maybe there are women being tempted by the idea of achieving some sort of Stepford family ideal and they will read your words and think again.

[J-rap]

These threads have been enlightening. My husband and I were invited to attend one of the ATI seminars in the early 1980's. My husband had recently become a Christian, and he did get some food for thought out of it regarding parenthood being a big responsibility and obedience toward God. However, my husband is also a strong feminist, so we disregarded most of it and forgot about it. We are not into Christian legalism in any way, shape or form.

 

However, a family that has been very dear to us over the years was a strong Bill Gothard family. We never talked to them about it in depth, but they all worked for his organization in Chicago and in fact they were sent to help start a branch in one of the countries mentioned (either in this thread or another, but I don't want to say which country in order to keep their anonymity). They are the jolliest, happiest, most loving family I have ever known, and we have often looked up to them when raising our own children.

 

They have always treated each other sooo lovingly, and they are all comedians, every last one of them. When my husband was hanging between life and death in the ER three years ago, they had all of us laughing in the waiting room, strange as that may sound. They are all so gentle and caring, and would give the clothes off their back for people. (In fact, the daughter and her husband gave us their home to live in for four months while my husband was at a rehab facility in Chicago.)

 

The three children in that family -- now in their late 30's and early 40's -- own and operate a company in Chicago. It is one woman and her two brothers. The woman is the most polished and articulate so she is the spokesperson for the company. She and her husband have no children.

 

Anyway, I'm not disputing anything that the rest of you are saying. Bill Gothard sounds bizarre and controlling. But I think there are good families that are in it simply because they feel they are doing the right thing as Christians, and they're not caught up in all the legalism of it either.

 

And honestly, I don't know if they're still Gothardites anymore or not. As I said, they started their own company about 12 years ago. I'll have to ask them next time I see them.

 

I wonder if Gothard started it all with good intentions and got off-track, or what.

 

Do you think IBLP is really much different than other more legalistic, fundamentalist Christian groups? In general, I don't. But I do think it's scary that one person is in charge of so much.

[SadieMarie]

I wasn't allowed tampons either (granted, some of this was TSS concerns) and my undergarments were only allowed to be white or beige. I bought a black demi bra a few months before I was to be married (he was in basic training with the USAF) and my mother saw it...her response, "are you having sex?" because of the black bra? No, I wasn't having sex. Though she had no problem telling my stepfather that she thought I was and then turning around and telling me that I need to be fairwarned that he was thinking about taking one of the guns and killing me before the holidays were over with. I finally got tossed out when I was found defending myself...my brother had started taking to hitting me with objects and his fists. A few months earlier he had hit our mother and I jumped his case for it....guess who stepdad got pissed at...yep, apparently she asked for it and I should not have stepped in.

 

I wasn't even allowed to see a doctor alone...with my mother would have been fine, but my mother and stepfather were standing there watching and I had to completely disrobe while the military doctor, male, discussed what stage my pubic hair was. Talk about humiliating. I go in with my children under a certain age. At a certain age, I allow them the privacy of a curtain so I'm not watching, but can still answer questions. At a certain age, I allow them with the doctor on their own.

Sorry for the serial posting, but I just read this and it makes me want to cry. I am so sorry that you, or anyone should have to grow up this way. I can't imagine how hard that would be. At least you are not carrying it on with your children though.

[Ellie]

 

I wonder if Gothard started it all with good intentions and got off-track, or what.

 

 

That's what I'm thinking. Many people from my church attended the Basic Youth Conflict seminar in 1974 in San Diego, and we saw many positive results.

[idnib]

I wasn't allowed tampons either (granted, some of this was TSS concerns) and my undergarments were only allowed to be white or beige. I bought a black demi bra a few months before I was to be married (he was in basic training with the USAF) and my mother saw it...her response, "are you having sex?" because of the black bra? No, I wasn't having sex. Though she had no problem telling my stepfather that she thought I was and then turning around and telling me that I need to be fairwarned that he was thinking about taking one of the guns and killing me before the holidays were over with. I finally got tossed out when I was found defending myself...my brother had started taking to hitting me with objects and his fists. A few months earlier he had hit our mother and I jumped his case for it....guess who stepdad got pissed at...yep, apparently she asked for it and I should not have stepped in.

 

I wasn't even allowed to see a doctor alone...with my mother would have been fine, but my mother and stepfather were standing there watching and I had to completely disrobe while the military doctor, male, discussed what stage my pubic hair was. Talk about humiliating. I go in with my children under a certain age. At a certain age, I allow them the privacy of a curtain so I'm not watching, but can still answer questions. At a certain age, I allow them with the doctor on their own.

 

I'm sorry this happened to you. Just unbelievable.

 

:grouphug: