What's wrong with starting out at CC or JUnior College and then transferring?

[...................]

I also just went on the CC website and found out that we are blessed enough to be near the number one ranked CC in the state for effective transfer to UC's.  So that is great!  I feel like I'm getting a solid understanding of the whole picture.

 

I've received a lot of excellent advice and ideas in this thread, thanks to all who waded in.

[Spy Car]

This is the biggest problem right now at the community colleges in California. I was prepared for my kids to not get the class they needed this semester, but we had no problem nor did any of their friends. I am wondering if perhaps after years of over-crowding it is starting to change a little. Either that or we just got lucky.  :)

I hope it is changing, because this option of 2 years of community college leading to UCs or State Universities used to be one of the "crown-jewels" of living in California.

 

My wife went to a very outstanding CC (Santa Monica City College) before going to UCLA and had a fantastic experience. She still talks about the fantastic professors she had in the English Department at the CC (who were easier to know than in typically larger University classes) and she also had good "teachers" in the classes she had that required good teachers. She loved UCLA;  there is an excitement of being on a gothic ivy-covered campus, but Santa Monica was a great option for her.

 

Congratulations!

 

I hope your children and their friends sail through.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

I also just went on the CC website and found out that we are blessed enough to be near the number one ranked CC in the state for effective transfer to UC's.  So that is great!  I feel like I'm getting a solid understanding of the whole picture.

 

I've received a lot of excellent advice and ideas in this thread, thanks to all who waded in.

 

 

Pasadena?

 

Bill

[Arcadia]

 I wonder then if these numbers reflect the actual rate of students successfully passing through a community college on their way to a four year. 

I just check for those nearer to me.  The transfer rates are not added into the graduation rates. 

 

Mission College

graduation rate                               22.4%           

transfer rate                                   13.8%

graduation + transfer rate              36.2%

 

Foothill College

graduation rate                                  53%          

transfer rate                                      14.8%

graduation + transfer rate                  68.2%

 

De Anza College 

graduation rate                                 59.7%                

transfer rate                                     12.3%

graduation + transfer rate                 72%

 

 

Pasadena?

 

Bill

 

Think she just moved near my area; NorCal

 

[cathmom]

My dd graduated from a c.c. and transferred to San Jose State as a junior.

 

It is, apparently, different in every state, but in California, you bet AA grads transfer as juniors into state colleges as well as private ones (within California; can't speak for outside California).

I'm sorry, Ellie, but when I last checked, San Jose State was not an Ivy, which is what I was talking about! :-)

 

I myself did an AA and then transferred with all my credits accepted to Rutgers-Camden as a junior. I could have applied to Penn, but I would have been starting over basically as a freshman, which was not acceptable to me. However ths was 20 years ago; policies may have changed.

[Teachin'Mine]

Cathmom I was curious about U Penn's transfer policy, so I looked it up.  No idea if any of your credits would transfer today because it is up to the department chairs and probably depends on the two year college, and each course itself.

 

Here's from their website:

 

"Credit earned at two-year institutions either the student is in high school (including the summer after) or after the student has matriculated at Penn (Credit Away) will not be posted to the Penn transcript. For students who transfer to Penn from a two-year institution, however, departments may at their discretion grant credit for course work done at the two-year institution."

 

Seems that at least half the major courses have to be taken at U Penn, but they do note that having prior courses would enable the student to take more upper level courses.   I think many of the universities are vague on what will transfer as they really have to evaluate each course and don't want an incoming student to count on having a lot of their credits transfer;  it's better to get a pleasant surprise of more counting.  

 

 

ETA:   Here's the link for U Penn's site for transfer students.   http://www.college.upenn.edu/transfer-students

[Jane in NC]

Cathmom I was curious about U Penn's transfer policy, so I looked it up.  No idea if any of your credits would transfer today because it is up to the department chairs and probably depends on the two year college, and each course itself.

 

Here's from their website:

 

"Credit earned at two-year institutions either the student is in high school (including the summer after) or after the student has matriculated at Penn (Credit Away) will not be posted to the Penn transcript. For students who transfer to Penn from a two-year institution, however, departments may at their discretion grant credit for course work done at the two-year institution."

 

Seems that at least half the major courses have to be taken at U Penn, but they do note that having prior courses would enable the student to take more upper level courses.   I think many of the universities are vague on what will transfer as they really have to evaluate each course and don't want an incoming student to count on having a lot of their credits transfer;  better to get a pleasant surprise of more counting.  

 

This is why articulation agreements between CCs and state unis can be helpful.  Penn and other private colleges can write their own rules. (Note:  we are talking about Penn, the Ivy League school, not Penn State, a public uni.)

 

I have a friend who is a high school counselor in New Jersey.  Many of her students attend out of state schools, often SUNYs.  I don't know if articulation agreements cross state lines for situations like this. I suspect that AP may be a more popular option that dual enrollment for this reason.

 

[SoCal Sandra]

Some other considerations, Calming Tea:

 

Re: a charter school, how important to you is a classical approach to education?

 

You mentioned your preference to maintain independence as a homeschooler and I see you use Calvert, which I believe is a classical curriculum. I understand the benefit of a-g courses through a charter school, but that may come at a cost if you have to give up the classical approach.  Most charter school curriculum at the high school level is not what most would call classical. If the goal is to arrive at a UC with a solid classical foundation then adding some Test Prep to that foundation might be less time consuming than jumping through the hoops of a charter school.

 

Re: CCs, when you consider the time and frustration of trying to get the necessary classes each semester (many students stand in the back of classrooms for the first week or two, hoping that enough students drop the class to create openings) you may decide that the time spent on test prep is not as bad as you think.

 

Just some more things to think about. Best of luck to you and your family!

[G5052]

What's wrong?

 

Not a thing, as long as you go in knowing what the score is for your particular CC.  

 

I teach at the local CC, and I always tell parents to talk to ***both*** the CC and the 4-year school they are targeting before enrolling.  This isn't difficult because the CC hosts the county college night, so you can hit several in one shot if you wish.  If you are completely clear on what the 4-year school expects before you get too many credits in hand, then it can work very well.  

 

And it doesn't hurt to ask about programs.  Ask the 4-year school about any shortcomings they see in the 2-year grades from the CC you're thinking of.  Some will tell you, "They do great, no concerns."  And some will say, "Glad you asked!  I would recommend XXX."  Even with the transfer agreements, sometimes they have opinions that will enhance the process of making the transition.  For example, I know that the neighboring CC has a writing class that one 4-year class highly recommends for liberal arts transfer students.  It could be taken online and transferred into the local CC as an elective, and then used to fill in a requirement at the 4-year school at less cost before starting there.  And I know that the state tech school recommends that engineering and science students take as much math as they can fit in, even using math for electives, even if they have the minimums for the transfer agreement.

 

And at my school the graduation rate doesn't include dual enrollment, non-degree, or transfer students.  And it still is less than 1/4.

[Ellie]

I'm sorry, Ellie, but when I last checked, San Jose State was not an Ivy, which is what I was talking about! :-)

 

I myself did an AA and then transferred with all my credits accepted to Rutgers-Camden as a junior. I could have applied to Penn, but I would have been starting over basically as a freshman, which was not acceptable to me. However ths was 20 years ago; policies may have changed.

 

At least two of David and Micki Colfax's sons, Grant and Drew, transferred from c.c. in California to Harvard (one is a doctor, I think the other is an attorney). Is that Ivy-League enough? :D  And I'm sure they are not the only ones.

[BlsdMama]

At least two of David and Micki Colfax's sons, Grant and Drew, transferred from c.c. in California to Harvard (one is a doctor, I think the other is an attorney). Is that Ivy-League enough? :D  And I'm sure they are not the only ones.

 

I am hoping those around here know who the Colfaxes are. ;)

 

Mmm.. We're on the high school board, so folks here may have been homeschooling long enough.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the 70s, yes? 

 

Is it just me or are we seeing FEWER schools accepting transfer credits from CC?

 

When I was in high school, the 90s not so very long ago, it seemed like many around me were doing just exactly this - going to a CC and transferring to the 4 year. 

 

Is it because of economy - the 4 year institutions are losing money by only getting two years' worth of tuition?

Or is it quality - they are seeing these CC students not wholly prepared for university courses?

 

I'm curious.

[delaney]

I am hoping those around here know who that is. ;)

 

Mmm.. We're on the high school board, so folks here may have been homeschooling long enough.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the 70s, yes? 

 

Is it just me or are we seeing FEWER schools accepting transfer credits from CC?

 

When I was in high school, the 90s not so very long ago, it seemed like many around me were doing just exactly this - going to a CC and transferring to the 4 year. 

 

Is it because of economy - the 4 year institutions are losing money by only getting two years' worth of tuition?

Or is it quality - they are seeing these CC students not wholly prepared for university courses?

 

I'm curious.

 

That could be the case. Here they have to accept the credits as long as they are from a predetermined list of things. My DS is knocking out all of the basic level classes for a whopping $5k per year. That includes books. My friends are paying $15K for the same basic classes. When he graduates from a 4 year school his piece of paper will look just like the ones that cost thousands more. Here in VA it is so hard to get into the schools as a freshman. From what I understand they take certain percentages from certain areas of the state. We live in the northern part so the competition is fierce. For the AVERAGE kid it is, for me, a waste of $$ to go all 4 years. We don't pay for room and board. The food is cheaper. The CC is 4 miles away. He has no classes on Friday. He is able to work on the weekends and still manage his course load. I really don't know how they manage all the transfers unless they are just balanced out by the kids that drop out? The big universities have gotten very greedy in my opinion.

 

 

[Teachin'Mine]

I would think that "top" schools admit fewer transfers because they have a high retention rate and fewer "spaces" open.  I would think that 4-year institutions make more money with transfers by filling dorm rooms and upper-level classes that would have fewer students due to drop-outs and students who transfer out.

[G5052]

Is it because of economy - the 4 year institutions are losing money by only getting two years' worth of tuition?

Or is it quality - they are seeing these CC students not wholly prepared for university courses?

 

I'm curious.

 

In my state, I've been told that the 4-year schools like the transfer agreement students because they're prepared, don't require as many services, and they generally don't live on campus.  There is some merit aid, and I've heard that need-based aid is also available.  There's a lot of communication between the CC's and 4-year schools to ensure that the system works well.

 

And yes, virtually all of the community colleges in the state are under a state community college system with a common master catalog, master student/course systems, etc.

[8filltheheart]

That could be the case. Here they have to accept the credits as long as they are from a predetermined list of things. My DS is knocking out all of the basic level classes for a whopping $5k per year. That includes books. My friends are paying $15K for the same basic classes. When he graduates from a 4 year school his piece of paper will look just like the ones that cost thousands more. Here in VA it is so hard to get into the schools as a freshman. From what I understand they take certain percentages from certain areas of the state. We live in the northern part so the competition is fierce. For the AVERAGE kid it is, for me, a waste of $$ to go all 4 years. We don't pay for room and board. The food is cheaper. The CC is 4 miles away. He has no classes on Friday. He is able to work on the weekends and still manage his course load. I really don't know how they manage all the transfers unless they are just balanced out by the kids that drop out? The big universities have gotten very greedy in my opinion.

 

 

I agree completely that in- state tuition in VA is absolutely ridiculous. It is definitely one of those states where looking out of state and at private schools may end up with much cheaper long-term options.

 

I did want to pt out that simply bc VA has articulation agreements between VCCS and the universities, it isnt quite as simple as entering as a jr in your major. There are some caveats to the above which may or may not apply to a given situation. I am not familiar with liberal arts majors, but the agreement isn't that straight-forward for engineering majors. I am not posting the below in reference to your situation (I don't eve have a clue what your ds is majoring in). I am simply posting it to show the larger picture for some situations.

 

For example, students are not guaranteed admission into their specific first choice major, simply into the dept at large. So say a student wants to major in chemical engineering--it does not mean that VT would have to accept them as a chemical engineering student. They are only required to accept them into the engineering dept and not the chemE if their chemE dept is full.

 

At the jr level that could have significant drawbacks. Engineering courses are major focused at that pt. It impacts faculty/advising, ability to intern/co-op/research (the latter of which can have significant impact on employment at graduation. A lot of students are researching/interning between soph and jr yr and/ or co-oping jr)

 

Another caveat in the agreement is that it never stipulates that they will only require 2 yrs to finish their degree. In the articulation agreement it states twice that graduation in 2 yrs is not guaranteed. When you look at the details, it looks like VT accepts 38-48 hrs, the remaining hrs may or may not satisfy degree requirements, and graduation requires 120-136 hrs. http://www.admiss.vt.edu/form-pdf/engineeringarticulationagreement.pdf

 

Potentially a student could have something like 22 hrs which are accepted but may not count toward degree-specific graduation requirements. (Most engineering programs really don't have that many non-degree specific hrs. I think my ds had something 2 English, speech, a social science, and maybe a couple of other non-core courses. Others were electives toward specific concentrations within his major.). In that case, they may have completed only slightly more than freshman level class work and be a yr behind where they could be. (Which would equate to a yr of lost salary)

[Farmgirl70]

I think CC is a viable option.  I do want to say, though, that we independently homeschooled all the way through.  Because the verbage on the CSU schools website was a little less defined for A-G requirements than on UC's website, we decided to give it a shot. My dd applied and was admitted to SFState with no additional testing and with one CC class under her belt.  The following year, my ds was also admitted.  With my daughter, they did have a special meeting of the admissions department to determine protocol, but they did end up admitting her.  With my son, there were no special meetings or glitches.  Easy like every other applicant.   My kids chose not to go the CC route because, after 12 years of homeschooling, they were ready for a more peer situation and CC is a more diverse group of people.  (Nothing wrong with that at all, but the peer situation was something they wanted to try after years of diverse age groups : )

[Lugrita]

Yeah, I saw that. So if he scores really fantastic on his SAT"s he can try admission to CAL State.

 

But you never know how someone is going to test, and if that is the only criteria- again, that is a LOT of pressure. Lots of amazingly smart, capable and bright children don't score so well that they would be chosen ONLY on their SAT scores over a bunch of other kids with great SAT scores and the transcripts they like. "Basically the idea is, if you are a genius, yeah, we will take a look at you." Still pressure.

 

But it;s nice to know. If my son scores a 2400 on his SAT's we can always apply to Berkeley. :huh:

 

Meanwhile, I just feel a lot of pressure is off my back and am so thankful God sent this friend from church. When I first moved here before I realized the transfer route was such a good option, I was pretty freaked out.

 

But I'm still curious why homeschoolers don't talk about it more. Save $$. Keep kids close by when they are still young....IDK...

IMHO, it isn't even worth it to jump through all of those hoops for a CSU. Currently the classes are so overloaded at most Cal States that they're projecting it will take at least 6 years to graduate from one. When I was a freshman at CSUN 21 years ago (yikes) they told us it would take at least 5 years to graduate simply due to the unavailability of the classes that we would need. Cal States are not worth that, IMO. After the '94 earthquake in my sophomore year I jumped ship and fulfilled as many requirements as possible at the local CC, and I found the quality of those classes to be superior to the classes I had taken at CSUN. We will consider a Cal State school, but we won't jump through those hoops for one.

 

We have our sights set on The Master's College, but that's possible only if grants and scholarships cover everything. :) There are a few other private colleges that we love as well. College Plus is next in line, and then if all else fails we'll go the CC route.

[flyingiguana]

These days, I'm seeing a number of fairly bright students doing cc for 2 years than transferring.  It just makes economic sense to them.  And many of them are getting aid as transfer students into 4 yr LACs.  The economic situation/tuition has made this a much more common option.  Colleges know this.  Many are adapting.

 

Back in the day, when I was doing cc classes in CA, I didn't find that they were all that terrible.  I went to a UC school after that, and didn't notice a huge amount of difference in the workload.  Back then, CA was putting a lot of money into higher education and I think the cc's benefited from that.  These days, who knows what's happening in CA, but it's possible the standards from years ago are persisting and the CA cc's are still good.  Also, for ones in urban areas, there are going to be a lot of qualified people wanting to teach there.

 

The big disadvantage I could see from doing cc first is that the student then only has 2 years to do the extracurricular stuff at the 4 year school.  Some kids can really benefit from the arts (theater, music etc) that might not be at the cc.  My experience with cc choirs and orchestras is that they're a bit, um, small, which makes some aspects of them not so great.  But this might not be a problem at a large cc.

 

fwiw -- we had trouble getting into classes at the Univ of CA way before things started to go downhill there, so it's not just a problem of the CA cc's.