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What's wrong with starting out at CC or JUnior College and then transferring?


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At least one Ivy actively recruits from our CC.   All the credits are accepted, but transfer students may need to take some of the core courses if they didn't take an equivalent course.   Transfer students are expected to graduate in 8 semester total - including whatever time was spent in CC.

 

Regarding the quality of calculus classes, there are different ones available with the highest level being specifically for scientists and mathematicians.   I guess we'll know in a year how it compares to ones at a university.

 

California is different from other states regarding overcrowding.  But this problem is as much a problem at the state universities as it is at the community colleges.

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Seems like CC's come up a lot around here, often in the context of DE, but frequently enough in the context of transfer-to-four-year.  I am curious, though about "Junior Colleges", which I don't think I've ever seen talked about on the boards.  I don't think we have them around here -- is this a regional thing?  To my mind, CC's are public, relatively inexpensive, and commuter. Or, are these two terms really synonyms? A relative just sent her eldest off to a two year junior college, and I'm not sure I'm understanding the value.  It is a private, residential college, and thus not cheap, and I'm not sure this private school has any transfer agreements with neighboring four year schools.

California has a number of public community colleges with some sort of on-campus housing. It seems to be largely those serving more rural areas.

 

I started at a high-ranked UC, dropped out, and then went to community college twice. I'm definitely in favor of the community college route. Course quality varied for both. Some were much easier at CC, others were basically equivalent (and I had more than one class at the UC that I passed despite rarely showing up for class, so they certainly weren't all particularly challenging). Students at CC were split between just out of high school who don't have anything better to do with their lives and "non-traditional students" who tend to be much more motivated and involved than what I saw in lower-level classes at the UC. The fact that most of the classes at the CC were small groups and not giant lecture halls worked much better for me. Not all the teachers at the CC were wonderful, but, on the whole, they were much more accessible and supportive than at the UC.

 

The biggest convincing argument I've seen against CCs is that people planning to apply to medical school may not be competitive if they take their science prerequisites at a CC.

 

 

Granted, it was eons ago, but when I taught future engineers at a public university, I found CC transfers were often at a disadvantage.  They may have had courses like Calculus or Chemistry at their CCs, but the content was often tweaked at the uni to gear students specifically for engineering/hard science programs.  One of my local tutees attended a CC to save money and live at home.  When he was accepted into an engineering program, he had to spend three years on campus to complete his requirements--not the two years that he had hoped. 

 

How common was it for students who had started out at the university to take an extra year? I know that, where I went, Engineering frequently ended up being a 5 year degree.

 

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Most of the homeschoolers I know (in CA) go the CC and then transfer route. The quality of the CC varies even within CA. However, we have had no trouble with the quality thus far. Most of the homeschoolers who have gone this route also have not had any trouble to speak of. In our area it seems that some of the CC schools do meet the Univerisity standard of the lower general ed courses. I encourage you to consider doing it this way for the reasons you already mentioned (less stress, lower cost etc.). In CA you can take many of the A-G required courses while still in highschool and be just fine transering in. It really can be much lower stress and pressure than it seems. Also, if a highschooler takes a course at the CC the cost is extremely low. They do not pay the fee per unit; only the student health fee (or something like that). I believe we paid $ 23 this semester. It IS a very viable option.

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As to the bolded, this is not always true. According to Yale's website, they do accept transfers from cc after one or two years at another school, and they specifically state on their website you can transfer from a cc. :)

 

http://admissions.yale.edu/faq/transfer-program#t181n1696

This is actually a better link explaining the process. One of the pages also states that over 1000 students apply as transfer students and they only accept 20-30.

 

http://admissions.yale.edu/transfer

 

The main reason I am posting that link, though, is they explicitly state they will not grant credit for online courses. We have run into that multiple times as we have been looking at various schools. While our ds has not taken any online courses through the universities, his sister has taken multiple courses through the CC and many of them are only offered virtually. So, for those going the CC route, you might want to completely investigate the virtual piece.

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This is actually a better link explaining the process. One of the pages also states that over 1000 students apply as transfer students and they only accept 20-30.

 

http://admissions.yale.edu/transfer

 

The main reason I am posting that link, though, is they explicitly state they will not grant credit for online courses. We have run into that multiple times as we have been looking at various schools. While our ds has not taken any online courses through the universities, his sister has taken multiple courses through the CC and many of them are only offered virtually. So, for those going the CC route, you might want to completely investigate the virtual piece.

 

How do they know what is an online course and what isn't? All the online/distance courses I've taken at a CC have shown up with no notation on the transcript that they were online. Obviously, if it was something that was only offered online, it would be obvious if they bothered to look. But a lot of classes are offered in various versions, with no distinction between them on the transcript.

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How do they know what is an online course and what isn't? All the online/distance courses I've taken at a CC have shown up with no notation on the transcript that they were online. Obviously, if it was something that was only offered online, it would be obvious if they bothered to look. But a lot of classes are offered in various versions, with no distinction between them on the transcript.

 

I am assuming that they require the same sort of process that many universities require when transferring credits.   It is not as simple as simple as submitting your transcript and them checking off boxes.  Courses have to match their courses.   Simply b/c courses are labeled the same title or same # does not mean you will receive credit.   And MOST schools are going to stipulate that the courses need to cover the same material. 

 

When we have been discussing transferring core courses for our ds (he hopes to receive credit for 200-300 level math and science courses) we have been told that in addition to course descriptions, depending on the school, he may be required to submit syllabii (one school even mentioned copies of final exams which he has never received back, so we aren't quite sure about how to handle that one and decided not to worry about it unless necessary.)   They will be able to tell.  

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How do they know what is an online course and what isn't? All the online/distance courses I've taken at a CC have shown up with no notation on the transcript that they were online. Obviously, if it was something that was only offered online, it would be obvious if they bothered to look. But a lot of classes are offered in various versions, with no distinction between them on the transcript.

 

At the CC where I taught, section numbers of courses offer a key as to whether they are classroom, hybrid, or online.  Minimal research would reveal the nature of the class to the person in the registrar's office who is comparing course descriptions, etc.

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We may do it for financial reasons, if for no other. I realize many people are hoping for scholarships to tier 1 schools, but we are not even attempting this. Our fd has been through too much and we need time without excess pressure for her to become skilled in areas that others have already matured in. We are still educating her well and planning for college, but our aims are not quite as high. So, although I love this board, I have to sometimes tell myself, "I have a different child and different goals than some of these moms and I need to remember that.

 

Re: the OP, though, Berkeley may not be "Ivy League" but it is considered a very, very good school, especially in certain areas and much more than adequate in any area. Just because a school is a state school, does not necessarily make it bad. One does not automatically get into Berkeley because they live in CA. They "might" automatically get into the University of California at Podunk City (forgive me if there really is a Podunk City, lol).

 

There are some situations where a tier 1 school really really matters - where your starting pay and chance for advancement to the top is more. I'd certainly rather have an engineering degree from MIT than from the University of New Mexico; I'd rather have a law degree from Harvard than the U of CO. But in some cases, it doesn't matter as much. And in other cases, it is where you went to graduate school that matters. 

 

Many community colleges have agreements with the state-funded colleges and sometimes, with other schools as well. Our county community college system is the largest in the country and my fd will have no trouble transferring to the U of AZ or ASU. Either of these schools are quite adequate for what she currently thinks she wants to major in or for any other area of study she has considered. But checking out whether the community college has agreements with other schools is well worth the effort. When my youngest son was college age, the community college in the area we then lived was not high calibre at all and even the better same state schools there did not accept every credit. He ended up going to a school out of state anyway for all four years. 

 

I think there is a tendency of a few people on this board to be disdainful toward anything the absolute best. I understand that. I wanted the best education possible for my sons and for my fd - but the best education possible really does look different for different people.

 

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As to the bolded, this is not always true. According to Yale's website, they do accept transfers from cc after one or two years at another school, and they specifically state on their website you can transfer from a cc. :)

 

http://admissions.yale.edu/faq/transfer-program#t181n1696

I met a few CC transfers when I was at Stanford, but they were all "diversity" candidates. One was white, but she had been a foster youth who'd dropped out at 16, worked as a blacksmith, and then decided in her late 20's to earn her H.S. diploma at night, and then attend CC. So she had a far more interesting life story than a typical CC graduate looking to transfer to a 4 year school.

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Getting back to the OP, it is very easy to satisfy the UC a-g credits with okay SAT II or AP exam scores (~540-570 for SAT II, 3+ on the AP exams). If my kids aren't able to score >570 on the SAT II tests, then IMHO they aren't cut out for a UC and should seriously consider a more vocational type program.

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I went to Caltech and we had a CC transfer. The school let his two years at CC count as one year at Caltech, but he did fine in the end. Don't know how much money he ended saving, though.

 

I think one problem at CC is that many people you are with aren't very motivated. Check out the CC graduation rate.

 

Emily

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Re: the OP, though, Berkeley may not be "Ivy League" but it is considered a very, very good school, especially in certain areas and much more than adequate in any area. Just because a school is a state school, does not necessarily make it bad. One does not automatically get into Berkeley because they live in CA. They "might" automatically get into the University of California at Podunk City (forgive me if there really is a Podunk City, lol).

 

Currently, the lowest ranked UC school is pretty podunk :) But it is new, and hasn't established itself yet. The other podunk-UC is in the top 10 public universities nationally. As are many of the UCs (podunk or not).

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That is worst case scenario, but getting out in 2 years (here) is unlikely now. The economic crash did not help. But there has been much discussion about this in the LA Times and other places.

 

Bill

Maybe near you, because I have never heard of this being an issue.  I'm even searching the news and the education union back issues dh gets.  Off to Google more.

 

How do they know what is an online course and what isn't? All the online/distance courses I've taken at a CC have shown up with no notation on the transcript that they were online. Obviously, if it was something that was only offered online, it would be obvious if they bothered to look. But a lot of classes are offered in various versions, with no distinction between them on the transcript.

In all of my online courses (all just gen ed requirement type things), the course number is exactly the same as in class.  That's ok, though, as I don't intend to go to an Ivy League.  ;)

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In all of my online courses (all just gen ed requirement type things), the course number is exactly the same as in class.  That's ok, though, as I don't intend to go to an Ivy League.  ;)

 

Same here (with the exception of two classes that were only offered online). I remember being told in high school to keep my college class syllabi (and have dutifully done so for no particularly good reason thus far), but I've never had to do more than provide the course description from the catalog in order to get transfer credit. But I've never applied anywhere Ivy League and doubt I ever will :)

 

Though I'd err on the side of safety and stick to in-person classes if I planned to transfer to that college, I have a suspicion that particular requirement may be aimed more at programs that are entirely online rather than courses that have (and cover the same content as) in-person equivalents.

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On the budget cuts/class availability issue, our local cc did some major belt-tightening during the recession (as well as having more adult students due to the unemployment rate) but it was big new that they were expanding offerings and adding back in scholarship programs for the 2013-14 school year.  So I'm sure it varies depending on the economy.

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In all of my online courses (all just gen ed requirement type things), the course number is exactly the same as in class. That's ok, though, as I don't intend to go to an Ivy League. ;)

One of the schools in which the dean stated they would not accept the credits if they were online courses was an out of state public university that is ranked somewhere around the 100 mark nationally, so it isn't a really "top" school. Eta: Btw, this had nothing to do with the online courses being from a CC. he wouldn't have accepted virtual courses from a 4 yr regional university either.

 

Dual enrolled students have often have similar issues if the courses are taught at their high schools vs. on a college campus.

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Sigh.  Whenever this topic is raised, there are a few of us who point out potential pitfalls of attending CCs for some students.  We are not condemning all CCs nor the students who enroll at them.  The CC near me (at which I once taught) is mediocre.  Does this imply that all CCs are mediocre?  No, but it does prove that not all CCs are wonderful.

 

The CCs with which I am familiar have open enrollment policies.  I believe these schools serve an important role in our society and I am particularly glad to hear from fellow posters that so many states fund these institutions so robustly.  That is not the case here in NC where the majority of faculty are underpaid adjuncts.

 

Attending a CC and then matriculating into a four year school is a viable path for some students.  It would not have been for my son--as I pointed out earlier.  Nor would it have been possible for my son to commute to a regional university while living at home.  I regularly hear that this is an option that students should pursue to save money but it assumes that a four year school with a student's desired program is within driving distance.

 

Some posters assume that only the Ivies do not accept CC or online course credit.  This is also true of other non-Ivy colleges.  Students and their parent counselors should be aware of this.

 

Attending an in-state public university is one path for some students.  It is not the only path.  Many parents learn that attending private colleges may be less expensive after merit aid or financial aid is considered.  Your mileage may vary.

 

So glad that our homeschooled students have many options.

 

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Re: the OP, though, Berkeley may not be "Ivy League" but it is considered a very, very good school, especially in certain areas and much more than adequate in any area. Just because a school is a state school, does not necessarily make it bad. One does not automatically get into Berkeley because they live in CA. They "might" automatically get into the University of California at Podunk City (forgive me if there really is a Podunk City, lol).

 

 

 

 

Go Bears!

 

Bill

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As a former admissions and financial aid counselor, I am familiar with both the advantages and the disadvantages of the CC-to-transfer path, but three things have made it an excellent option for my students: (1) the quality of the local college, (2) the Illinois Articulation Initiative, and (3) the majors they've chosen.

 

We are wrapping up college visits for Miss M-mv(i) next month, and I have encouraged her to apply to her top four choices. Assuming she is admitted, she can then make an "educated consumer" decision: What, if any, scholarships and grants have you been offered? For how long? With what stipulations? Is the actual cost to attend still significantly more expensive than the CC-to-transfer path? Decision made.

 

As for how often this topic is discussed, I actually think it comes up a fair bit, which I greatly appreciate. It has been our experience that even in this current economic climate, people are still willing to sink themselves -- and their children -- into insurmountable debt, simply for the "privilege" of slapping "My child (and my paycheck) go to [insert college name here]" bumper stickers on their family vehicles. (I jest, of course, but I'm guessing many of you know what I mean.) Really, I am surprised that such a stigma -- social, financial, academic -- still applies to the CC route, but, boy, does it! It is only here on the WTM forums that I've "met" other parents with similar situations -- that is, bright students who, for any number of reasons, determine that CC or CC-to-transfer is a smart option.

 

Thank you. Now I can stop reading. My point has been made.

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One of the schools in which the dean stated they would not accept the credits if they were online courses was an out of state public university that is ranked somewhere around the 100 mark nationally, so it isn't a really "top" school. Eta: Btw, this had nothing to do with the online courses being from a CC. he wouldn't have accepted virtual courses from a 4 yr regional university either.

 

Dual enrolled students have often have similar issues if the courses are taught at their high schools vs. on a college campus.

I'm just confused as to how they would know.  I guess it depends on the college as to the description and numbering of the course.  I've transferred and been admitted to several colleges (we move a lot) and it's never been an issue-even with Duke.  That would really be frustrating if they didn't accept the online courses, especially since that's largely where education is headed.  Many colleges and universities are pushing the hybrid and online courses. 

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I'm just confused as to how they would know. I guess it depends on the college as to the description and numbering of the course. I've transferred and been admitted to several colleges (we move a lot) and it's never been an issue-even with Duke. That would really be frustrating if they didn't accept the online courses, especially since that's largely where education is headed. Many colleges and universities are pushing the hybrid and online courses.

We actually met with the dean in person since the dean of the various depts at this university have the final say as to what is accepted as transfer credit and what is rejected. We brought course descriptions with us.

 

Before he fully understood ds's dual enrollment situation, he told ds flat out that he would not accept CC coursework bc they have had too many issues with students having trouble transitioning into their sequence. When ds explained he had taken them at a 4 yr university, the dean asked for the course descriptions and asked ds about the classes. After their discussion, he said that he would accept them but that if they had not been in person on a 4 yr university campus he wouldn't have. He said that they reject all virtual courses.

 

Whether that is the case in every dept, I can't say. But this dean made his position very clear.

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You can transfer, but as a junior? I looked into transferring to Penn after getting an AA from a community college. I essentially would have been starting over. I went to Rutgers- Camden instead.

 

My dd graduated from a c.c. and transferred to San Jose State as a junior.

 

It is, apparently, different in every state, but in California, you bet AA grads transfer as juniors into state colleges as well as private ones (within California; can't speak for outside California).

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So it got me to thinking, why not just take two years at a lesser college, or even (gasp) a community college and then transfer.  I'm not talking about dual enrollment but actually just going to CC or an easier to get into state college and then transferring.

 

 

I posted this local link (Mercury News) in a thread in the college board.  Below is just for community colleges in Santa Clara County.  I'm not happy with the graduation rate.  I'm assuming dual enrollment is not counted into the graduation rate.  I am considering dual enrolment though as the unit fees are waived if my kids go to the one walkable from our home. 

 

Name                                    Grad Rate Default Rate Students on Loans Avg. Net Price

San Jose City College *          19%             20.0%            3%            $11,324

West Valley College *             26%            10.8%             2%                 $10,246

Evergreen Valley College *     23%            14.4%            2%                $9,395

Mission College *                    22%             19.7%           1%                $8,811

Gavilan College *                    19%             36.0%           4%                $7,313

Foothill College *                    53%            15.6%              4%               $6,994

De Anza College *                  60%            17.0%             4%                $5,237

 

(Sources: U.S. Department of Education the The Project on Student Debt

 

* Due to data availability, for marked colleges average net cost is from the 2012-2013 year while the rest of the information is from 2011-2012. Average change in net cost among colleges for which we have both 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 data is +$626.07.)
 
ETA:
 
" COLLEGE OF ENGINEERING

B.S. DEGREE

ô€´ô€€  Requires strong preparation in math and physical sciences.

ô€´ô€€ Applicants must have a minimum 3.0 GPA and have completed the equivalent of all required core UC Berkeley preparation courses (see assist.org) to be eligible for admission.

ô€´ô€€ If a series of courses is required, all courses in the series must be completed to receive credit. No partial credit is given.

ô€´ô€€ The Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum (IGETC) offered at California community colleges is not accepted as completion of breadth"  (Source, UCB transfer admission info)

 

"ASSIST is an online student-transfer information system that shows how course credits earned at one public California college or university can be applied when transferred to another. ASSIST is the official repository of articulation for California’s public colleges and universities and provides the most accurate and up-to-date information about student transfer in California."

http://www.assist.org/web-assist/welcome.html

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I think one problem at CC is that many people you are with aren't very motivated. Check out the CC graduation rate.

 

I don't think graduation rate is a very accurate bar for measuring the motivation of CC students.  There are so many reasons people sign up for classes at CCs.  Some just because they're interested in a few courses, some to improve their employment outlook.  My niece recently started at UNC (Chapel Hill) and was told that if she wants to graduate in four years and spend some time at home during the summer, she better start researching summer classes available at our CC.  She won't be graduating, but that certainly doesn't mean she won't be a motivated CC student.  And then of course you have people who go to CCs to accumulate credits and then transfer to four-year schools before they receive a full AA degree.  My nephew was one of those.  Again, the fact that he didn't graduate wouldn't have been an accurate indication of his motivation while there.

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This is actually a better link explaining the process. One of the pages also states that over 1000 students apply as transfer students and they only accept 20-30.

 

http://admissions.yale.edu/transfer

 

The main reason I am posting that link, though, is they explicitly state they will not grant credit for online courses. We have run into that multiple times as we have been looking at various schools. While our ds has not taken any online courses through the universities, his sister has taken multiple courses through the CC and many of them are only offered virtually. So, for those going the CC route, you might want to completely investigate the virtual piece.

I thought that was the page I linked, and I see now I posted the FAQ. I did see how tiny a group they admit. Definitely slim odds. Which is why I think if they choose to admit, they must feel confident the student will succeed.

 

Also, didn't we recently have a mom on here whose daughter started at cc due to finances and has now ended up at a great school (not Ivy) on a scholarship? Wasn't she choosing between two great schools? Very accomplished girl. If cc is what has to happen for whatever reason, it's not something a person can't move beyond if they want to.

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My DS is just starting CC and here's why. I refuse to pay out the butt for 100 level classes. They are not easier. He has a 3 page paper due weekly for his business 101 class and that isn't all. He has no idea at his age what he REALLY wants to do. Why choose a 4 year school? If he takes what they say and keeps his grades up he is guaranteed transfer into any VA school. VA Tech, William and Mary, UVA.......his choice. No picking his second choice because they competition was so tight as a freshman. Also, if he really wants to attend a private school it will be more manageable for 2 years instead of 4. There is NOTHING wrong with a CC. Those teachers are there by choice and not because they are tenured and resting on their laurels.

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One of the schools in which the dean stated they would not accept the credits if they were online courses was an out of state public university that is ranked somewhere around the 100 mark nationally, so it isn't a really "top" school. Eta: Btw, this had nothing to do with the online courses being from a CC. he wouldn't have accepted virtual courses from a 4 yr regional university either.

 

Dual enrolled students have often have similar issues if the courses are taught at their high schools vs. on a college campus.

 

So glad that Virginia has made this whole process easy. The CC literally gives us a list and schedule for the 2 years our kids will be there. Then they transfer over. No issues.

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Also, didn't we recently have a mom on here whose daughter started at cc due to finances and has now ended up at a great school (not Ivy) on a scholarship? Wasn't she choosing between two great schools? Very accomplished girl. If cc is what has to happen for whatever reason, it's not something a person can't move beyond if they want to.

 

That most impressive young woman won a Jack Kent Cooke Scholarship.  I applaud her success!

 

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My DS is just starting CC and here's why. I refuse to pay out the butt for 100 level classes. They are not easier. He has a 3 page paper due weekly for his business 101 class and that isn't all. He has no idea at his age what he REALLY wants to do. Why choose a 4 year school? If he takes what they say and keeps his grades up he is guaranteed transfer into any VA school. VA Tech, William and Mary, UVA.......his choice. No picking his second choice because they competition was so tight as a freshman. Also, if he really wants to attend a private school it will be more manageable for 2 years instead of 4. There is NOTHING wrong with a CC. Those teachers are there by choice and not because they are tenured and resting on their laurels.

 

The reasons you provide for why the CC is a good option for your son are the reasons why it was not for mine.  He knew what he wanted to study and was taking a 300 level course in the field as a freshman.

 

As a former underpaid CC instructor, I will challenge your statement that "Those teachers are there by choice." Some of the adjuncts whom I knew where happy to teach part time in retirement or as a parent.  Many of the newly minted MAs/MSs/PhDs were often piecing together a subsistence living by teaching at several CCs.  It really was not a choice but a way to keep their heads above water.

 

Perhaps the CCs in your state hire more full time faculty.

 

 

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I'm just confused as to how they would know.  I guess it depends on the college as to the description and numbering of the course.  I've transferred and been admitted to several colleges (we move a lot) and it's never been an issue-even with Duke.  That would really be frustrating if they didn't accept the online courses, especially since that's largely where education is headed.  Many colleges and universities are pushing the hybrid and online courses. 

 

How would they know?  Some of the colleges to which my son applied simply asked.  The common app had individual college supplements and some asked if any community college classes had been taken on a high school campus or online.

 

Nan

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I'm just confused as to how they would know.  I guess it depends on the college as to the description and numbering of the course.  I've transferred and been admitted to several colleges (we move a lot) and it's never been an issue-even with Duke.  That would really be frustrating if they didn't accept the online courses, especially since that's largely where education is headed.  Many colleges and universities are pushing the hybrid and online courses.

 

Well if nothing else, they call the school and ask. If it's a more known department at that school, they likely know the odds if it being online.

 

Just because education is largely headed to online/hybrid doesn't mean it's good. The quality of instruction or lack there of can be quite stark and good colleges know that. Until there is more uniformity of quality, I think many universities are going to be hesitant about giving credit across the board for online/hybrid courses. And I think they have good reason to do so at this point. I do see it improving, but it's not quite there yet.

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I posted this local link (Mercury News) in a thread in the college board.  Below is just for community colleges in Santa Clara County.  I'm not happy with the graduation rate.  I'm assuming dual enrollment is not counted into the graduation rate.  I am considering dual enrolment though as the unit fees are waived if my kids go to the one walkable from our home. 

 

Name                                    Grad Rate Default Rate Students on Loans Avg. Net Price

San Jose City College *          19%             20.0%            3%            $11,324

West Valley College *             26%            10.8%             2%                 $10,246

Evergreen Valley College *     23%            14.4%            2%                $9,395

Mission College *                    22%             19.7%           1%                $8,811

Gavilan College *                    19%             36.0%           4%                $7,313

Foothill College *                    53%            15.6%              4%               $6,994

De Anza College *                  60%            17.0%             4%                $5,237

 

(Sources: U.S. Department of Education the The Project on Student Debt

 

* Due to data availability, for marked colleges average net cost is from the 2012-2013 year while the rest of the information is from 2011-2012. Average change in net cost among colleges for which we have both 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 data is +$626.07.)
 
ETA:
 
" COLLEGE OF ENGINEERING

B.S. DEGREE

ô€´ô€€  Requires strong preparation in math and physical sciences.

ô€´ô€€ Applicants must have a minimum 3.0 GPA and have completed the equivalent of all required core UC Berkeley preparation courses (see assist.org) to be eligible for admission.

ô€´ô€€ If a series of courses is required, all courses in the series must be completed to receive credit. No partial credit is given.

ô€´ô€€ The Intersegmental General Education Transfer Curriculum (IGETC) offered at California community colleges is not accepted as completion of breadth"  (Source, UCB transfer admission info)

 

"ASSIST is an online student-transfer information system that shows how course credits earned at one public California college or university can be applied when transferred to another. ASSIST is the official repository of articulation for California’s public colleges and universities and provides the most accurate and up-to-date information about student transfer in California."

http://www.assist.org/web-assist/welcome.html

 

Both of my daughters began their c.c. careers at Evergreen Valley College when they were 14yo. They enrolled as "Student Under 18, Not Enrolled in High School." IOW, not dual-enrolled, but actual college students. They paid tuition and earned college credit; dual-enrolled students earned high school credit, and after high school graduation, they had to take additional classes that equaled the same number of credits as the classes they took while in high school. Perhaps this policy has changed, but it made no sense to me for my dc to earn high school credit--as a private school, I did not need someone to give my dc credit for graduation, KWIM?--when they were doing the exact same work as the other students. Older dd graduated from EVC and transferred to San Jose State as a junior. Younger dd transferred to and graduated from...another one, the name of which I cannot remember at this moment, lol...because she wanted a major not offered by EVC. She decided not to go on to San Jose State (long story).

 

Not all community colleges have the same enrollment options as EVC, though. Some give college credit to dual-enrolled students, most have age requirements and will only enroll students 16 and over. Some of my friends' children took classes for a whole semester only to find out that they were actually not enrolled and received no credit at all. :glare:

 

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 There is NOTHING wrong with a CC. Those teachers are there by choice and not because they are tenured and resting on their laurels.

 

You cannot assume that a CC professor does not have tenure.  While it varies from CC system to  CC system, many of the systems do have tenured professors.  You also cannot assume that attending a 4-year school means that you will be taught by a tenured or a tenure-track professor.  Universities are relying heavily on adjunct, non-tenure tracked instructors and graduate students to teach, especially lower level courses.

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I know that some parents seem really determined that their kid have the whole "college experience".  To them that means living on campus at a 4 year university.

 

For me, that's exactly something I would not prefer for DD at 17 when she will be graduating.  I much prefer the idea of a gradual transition, living at home and going to CC for a couple of years first. I've also seen too many kids waste a ton of time (and expense) changing majors at university, sometimes repeatedly.  I think after 2 years, they might have a better idea where they are going with their education.

 

 Our local CC has a great reputation and articulation agreements.  That's definitely the way we want to go.

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I think CC differ greatly in various parts of the country.  I lived in a state in which they were virtually non-existent and moved to a state where they are an extremely popular option.  Although I understand the logic of not spending a lot of money on a four-year school until the student knows what he or she wants to major in, I have seen many students flounder at CC.  The four-year college provides students more than an experience of frat parties and dorm living.  The clubs, organizations, senior students as mentors, etc. allow underclassman to explore majors and careers in ways that they can't at a CC.  Students can begin to meet and know the professors who will be teaching upper division classes.  I think it is harder for a student at a CC to get excited about a particular major or career path.  

 

Also, there may be agreements that a student will be admitted to a four-year college and that the credit will transfer, but it does not guarantee that the credit will count toward a degree in the field the student chooses.  For example, if a student takes 6-hours of math at CC, that might transfer as credit on the transcript, but it may not be the 6-hours needed for a business degree.  So, if a student doesn't know what he/she wants to major in, taking classes to get them out of the way at CC may not be accomplishing much because they may not count toward the eventual degree.  (In my experience CC advisors are not good at explaining this.)  

 

It will also show on the students' transcript that those courses were taken at a CC, not at the four-year institution. I have seen that factor into the graduate school admission process and into scholarship awards, especially if the student's GPA at the CC tends to be higher than the GPA of the four-year institution courses.

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You cannot assume that a CC professor does not have tenure.  While it varies from CC system to  CC system, many of the systems do have tenured professors.  You also cannot assume that attending a 4-year school means that you will be taught by a tenured or a tenure-track professor.  Universities are relying heavily on adjunct, non-tenure tracked instructors and graduate students to teach, especially lower level courses.

 

In addition, you can also not assume that being tenured or not has any impact on the teaching abilities.

Some tenured professors, untenured instructors, grad students are outstanding teachers.

Some tenured professors, untenured instructors, grad students are mediocre (or worse) teachers.

 

The only difference would be that a completely lousy untenured instructor would get fired more easily.

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 There is NOTHING wrong with a CC. Those teachers are there by choice and not because they are tenured and resting on their laurels.

 

 

I agree that there is nothing wrong with CC, but I disagree about the implications of your second statement.

 

First, many CC instructors are there because they need a job to make a living or boost their retirement income. Since the pay is pretty low, many instructors cobble together a full-time job by teaching at several different CCs to make ends meet; some are parents who are seeking only part-time employment to supplement the family income. For most, I would assume they chose this kind of job because they enjoy teaching, but please do not think they are there out of the goodness of their hearts. It is a job as any other job and involves as much choice as another job.

 

Second, being tenured does not mean a professor is resting on his laurels and does not care about teaching. Many tenured professors are at a university because they enjoy teaching; in fields like mine, they would make a lot more money with their qualifications if they worked in industry. Most people who join academia do so because they enjoy working with students.

 

I do not believe that you can make any inferences about an instructor's quality based on whether he is teaching at the CC or at a university and whether he is tenured or not.

At both CCs and universities, there will be great instructors and some that are not good teachers.

 

But the implication that tenure equals slacking off is pretty insulting to my colleagues who work extremely hard to be great instructors. (And no, I am not tenured).

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I think CC differ greatly in various parts of the country.

I agree. I have had kids take a total of approx 70 hrs at CCs in one the states a poster in this thread is happy to have her children take courses at. W/o qualm, my kids and I would both say that the quality of those classes were definitely not on par with university classes they have taken with the exception of an art history class which was excellent. Chemistry and anatomy were extremely subpar.

 

I think students transferring from those CCs into a university where those courses were foundational would be at a distinct disadvantage than students who had taken the core major requirements at that university. As a matter of fact, when we went to a university and spoke with one of the professors there, he literally rolled his eyes when dd told him where she had taken her courses and said he would not recommend skipping them there. Just bc they can doesn't necessarily mean they should. Non-major requirements, otoh, are more of a non-issue.

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So much of this depends on funding.  Your state is perhaps more generous than some--or smaller geographically.  In my state, students in populated areas are nearer CCs with more options.  My rural area has a CC that often has limited sections of the basic courses.  In fact, certain math and science courses outside of remedial classes are only offered in the fall or spring--not both semesters and certainly not in the summer.

 

It is possible for a student to earn an AA or AS in two or three years, but whether the student will have the courses that he or she requires for a particular major is a problem.  For example, my CC does not always offer Calc II annually which is a requirement for an engineering/hard science degree.  Students hoping to enroll in the nursing program face tough odds since they only accept a small number of students each semester due to space limitations on campus. 

 

Consider yourself fortunate that you have flexibility to take courses at any time of day.  Some students with jobs, children or transportation issues cannot do this. 

 

You note that any good CC knows the demand for specific classes.  But can they fund them or find the instructors??

 

 

I made too many unfair assumptions in my posting. I apologize if I have caused offense. 

 

Mostly, I was referring to SpyCar's post that for some students, it would take 6 years to receive an Associate's degree. There are many part-time and full-time working students at my CC who do not take anywhere near that long. I myself will take three years to complete my Associate's in Medical Lab Science, because I am taking pre-req courses now and can only apply for Fall admission. 

 

I am very fortunate that my school offers the wide range of degrees/classes that it does, as well as course availability. I am also fortunate to live on a bus route that leads directly to my CC --- about a 5 minute ride. 

 

Honestly, I do not know where my state (Massachusetts) falls in regards to student and institution funding. I believe it is pretty high up there, though. 

 

This is an interesting article I found about performance based funding. It is an article specifically about Massachusetts CC's, but the article states that at least 10 other states link at least some of their funding to performance. This of course has some potential, but I do not know if the risks will be worth it. A college would be more likely to recruit from higher performing high schools, yes? There would be a huge gap in services offered to the potentially high performing students, and those with less potential. It looks though as if there may be incentive to have lower income students performing above average, so who knows, this may be a great idea. 

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CC is a great option for some students at their CC and not so great an option for some students at their CC.   IMO graduation rates and averages for students don't really matter as it's about how your student will do at your CC.   As far as extracurriculars, the CC may not have the hundreds of options often offered at universities, but they do provide quite a few and are open to more.  It's up to the student to show initiative and seek them out and get involved.  Top students can stand out and excel in many different colleges.   Clearly if the student has already taken all the courses available in their major at the CC, then that would be a really poor choice for them.   As far as graduation rates, even some well ranked national universities have very low 4-year graduation rates.  Again, it's not the average that matters, to me, it's how well will your student do at the college.   In fact, a low graduation rate may be indicating that the courses are challenging, in addition to the other reasons already mentioned.  

 

As far as credit being given at a university, that is highly variable.  At the top ones its usually more a matter of placing out of lower level courses than getting credit.  If a student plans to spend another 4 years at the university, then the credit earned isn't critical anyway.   If the CC courses were done to reduce the total education costs, then a university should be found which will provide credit for the courses taken; usually in-state universities will be able to accommodate this.

 

I know that few universities will give credit for online classes, but does anyone know for a fact, first-hand, that the hybrid classes are treated the same?   Often times the online component is not "teaching" but "homework" types of assignments.

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I must live in one of the poorer community college areas.

 

Attending the local community college is not an option here. Their highest math class actually scheduled is precalc. All of the local high schools go further. They have one language class this fall-Italian I. No biology. No chemistry.

 

And it's $215 per credit hour (on a trimester system), so if they did offer chemistry, it would have cost $1900 for the year!

 

They claim to have an articulation agreement with four colleges but its pretty useless given the course offerings.

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Both my kids started down the cc to transfer path, but wound up at private out-of-state schools simply because the schools were a better fit.   With merit aid, the cost of attending an out of state, for one of my sons at least, is exactly the same as if he had stayed in state and lived in the dorms.  

 

This.

 

Everyone has to find their fit.  You might find that CC works great for your oldest and in a few years, decide on something entirely different for your next one.  I can tell you right now, I have children who will explore all sorts of different options - university, CC, and trade. 

 

Our oldest is taking a CC class this semester.  That said, because we want her to be steeped in a conservative Christian worldview for her first year, we've chosen to apply to several Christian universities.  We suspect the cost will ultimately be about the same as CC due to financial and merit based aid.  We'll see.

 

But I think *every* family considers all their options, CC included.  They then make the best choice that fits their family and their child.

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Mostly, I was referring to SpyCar's post that for some students, it would take 6 years to receive an Associate's degree. There are many part-time and full-time working students at my CC who do not take anywhere near that long. I myself will take three years to complete my Associate's in Medical Lab Science, because I am taking pre-req courses now and can only apply for Fall admission. 

 

 

 

My point is that what was once a very viable path (2 years at a CC followed by 2 years at a State University or UC) here in California, has become much less attractive due to the problems most students have in getting the classes they need (both at CCs and (later) at the State Universities). Some students may be lucky at registration, but they can't count on it.

 

At least in this area many (most) young people who would hope to be full-time students can't get the classes they need to get in and out in 2 years. So they become "part-time" students by default. The process can add many years to the BA/BS path. 

 

There was talk here recently (and I'm not sure the current state of things) of basically kicking all the students who were doing enrichment, self-growth, art, professional advancement, and things of that nature, and to focus on students who were on the 2 year path to University. It caused the predictable fire-storm.

 

 

Bill

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Everyone has to find their fit. You might find that CC works great for your oldest and in a few years, decide on something entirely different for your next one. I can tell you right now, I have children who will explore all sorts of different options - university, CC, and trade.

.

I agree. Our dd has made the decision only even to seek an associates degree from an Allied Health program vs pursuing a BS after talking with the governing licensing professional association bc the difference is really between associates and masters with no advantage with a bachelors unless grad school wants to be pursued (in which case you would basically have to start over bc the associates coursework is non-transferrable to a 4 yr program)

 

I don't get the ruffled feathers when people discuss the pros and cons. They both exist. It isn't as if the cons aren't real in some circumstances. The cost factor and other pros are real as well in others.

 

What is great for our dd would be a disaster for our ds.

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I posted this local link (Mercury News) in a thread in the college board.  Below is just for community colleges in Santa Clara County.  I'm not happy with the graduation rate.  I'm assuming dual enrollment is not counted into the graduation rate.  I am considering dual enrolment though as the unit fees are waived if my kids go to the one walkable from our home. 

 

Name                                    Grad Rate Default Rate Students on Loans Avg. Net Price

San Jose City College *          19%             20.0%            3%            $11,324

West Valley College *             26%            10.8%             2%                 $10,246

Evergreen Valley College *     23%            14.4%            2%                $9,395

Mission College *                    22%             19.7%           1%                $8,811

Gavilan College *                    19%             36.0%           4%                $7,313

Foothill College *                    53%            15.6%              4%               $6,994

De Anza College *                  60%            17.0%             4%                $5,237

 

 

Many students at a community college do not graduate, they transfer. Although you can receive an AA, many don't when they transfer. If you are on the UC path to transfer you are not getting an AA. I wonder then if these numbers reflect the actual rate of students successfully passing through a community college on their way to a four year. 

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My point is that what was once a very viable path (2 years at a CC followed by 2 years at a State University or UC) here in California, has become much less attractive due to the problems most students have in getting the classes they need (both at CCs and (later) at the State Universities). Some students may be lucky at registration, but they can't count on it.

 

At least in this area many (most) young people who would hope to be full-time students can't get the classes they need to get in and out in 2 years. So they become "part-time" students by default. The process can add many years to the BA/BS path. 

 

There was talk here recently (and I'm not sure the current state of things) of basically kicking all the students who were doing enrichment, self-growth, art, professional advancement, and things of that nature, and to focus on students who were on the 2 year path to University. It caused the predictable fire-storm.

 

 

Bill

 

This is the biggest problem right now at the community colleges in California. I was prepared for my kids to not get the class they needed this semester, but we had no problem nor did any of their friends. I am wondering if perhaps after years of over-crowding it is starting to change a little. Either that or we just got lucky.  :)

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Like everyone else said, you do what is best for your kid. I think that California has a reputation for excellence in CC's and there is probably some state control over quality and that really helps.

 

However, in Michigan that is not the case. If varies quite wildly from quite good to absymally poor. There isn't any state oversight. Therefore, the good 4 year college are leery and the few that do accept the credits, rarely offer any scholarship money to transfers. That's another issue as well...all of the merit aid offered to traditional freshman that is missed out on going the CC route. So, again, if you live near a really good one, and the credits will be readily accepted, and you can afford the last two years of the bachelor's without the merit aid, then it can be a really great option. Though, I add one caveat. Many uni's now have specific courses in gen ed for each major instead of "college writing" for everyone, or "Biology 101" or whatever. So, you may take what you think are basic gen ed courses at the CC, transfer, and then take them all over again because they weren't specific to your major. The College Writing class my one of ds's would take at MSU would actually be a different course than his brother's College Writing class. Gen Ed isn't so general anymore.

 

In our case, we could drive 1.5 hrs. each way to get to the really good CC, or we can do AP's and plan on a four year uni. Given the recent huge increase in per credit hour tuition at that CC, three hours of driving each day at nearly $4.00 per gallon in gas, and the fact that we can't be absolutely certain those "less expensive" credits would actually transfer to their first choice colleges, financially it's too great a gamble to be worth the effort. Now, if I were in California, I can tell you there's a lot of high school I would have already outsourced to my local CC. Unfortunately, I'm in Michigan and my local CC does not offer any math beyond college algebra, very few sciences and the quality of those is highly suspect since many of the nurses who graduate the practical nursing program and then try to go the uni for their BSRN or the other CC for the ADN have a very high failure rate, no foreign language, and no history courses or fine arts. It's so very limited and many of their programs are licensing programs and not degrees. That's fine, there is definitely a place for all of those licensing programs, it just isn't helpful to me as a homeschooler with kids determined to get BS degrees in the sciences as well as post-grad degrees where getting into their program of choice means not having "dings" on their resumes.

 

Personally, I wish Michigan adopted a more specific approach to the CC issue and provided appropriate oversight so that CC was a legitimate option for everyone wanting to later attend one of the state flagships. I am no fan of dictating anything in that regard to private institutions. But, it sure would be a great boon to everyone if at least some of the CC's became part of the state college system instead of being independently owned, operated, and allowed to have a huge range of standards. The uni's need to have some assurance that the quality is there and the material is being covered.

 

In my experience, it appears that both of the coasts do better in regards to CC education than the Midwest.

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I am a current California resident with college age kids.  

 

Most of the homeschool kids I know have stayed in state, attending a community college then transferring to either a UC or Cal State school.  Some kids take the CHSPE, the Cal High School Proficiency Exam, which allows teens to be full time cc students after their sophomore year of high school.  The articulation agreements work, courses DO transfer.  Shoot, before kids I worked in an academic department at a UC, and the undergrad advisor worked very closely with the community colleges to keep those articulation agreements current.  Anyway, the best part of the cc route is the lower expense.  

 

Other homeschool kids I know have gotten around the homeschool/a-g course issue by attending a WASC accredited charter umbrella school which offers a-g courses.  There are pros and cons to the charter schools, but almost all the high school homeschoolers I know have wound up at one.  (I had one graduate from a charter and one stay independent to the end.)

 

I also know lots of kids going to school in Arizona (especially NAU in Flagstaff) and Oregon as there are in-state tuition agreements for CA residents. Don't remember how homeschool friendly they are, but it is another option.

 

Both my kids started down the cc to transfer path, but wound up at private out-of-state schools simply because the schools were a better fit.   With merit aid, the cost of attending an out of state, for one of my sons at least, is exactly the same as if he had stayed in state and lived in the dorms.  

Thanks Jennifer, this is very helpful.  Looking to the future, I am thinking that I will just allow my kids to dual enroll for their junior high school year and then probably graduate them completely (meaning they will also start 9th grade a year early), then take 2 years at CC and transfer.

 

Either that, or my husband and I will have to think about the charter route which makes me really bummed because I value my freedom as an independent homeschooler and I definitely don't like the idea of charter/public schools at all.

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