What's wrong with starting out at CC or JUnior College and then transferring?

[...................]

I just moved to CA where most of the affordable colleges are woefully unwelcoming toward homeschoolers.  In fact the overall situation here is just so vastly different to where we came from (FL) where homeschoolers are welcomed and even recruited.  THe UC's admission is so difficult now that even the top performing students from the best school districts are competing with each other, as the UC officials are recruiting far more out of state students who pay 4 times as much tuition money.  

 

Stanford is too expensive, and there are no wonderful colleges for Computer Science that I can think of...

 

So it got me to thinking, why not just take two years at a lesser college, or even (gasp) a community college and then transfer.  Im not talking about dual enrollment but actually just going to CC or an easier to get into state college and then transferring.

 

Why don't we talk about that more here?  I met a lady at church.  Her son went to Community College and transferred right into Berkeley.  NO stress, no fuss, no pressure.  He was ready, sent in his transcript and transfer app and he was done.  They accepted him based on the classes and excellent grades he got at CC.

 

SO why don't we talk about that more?

[mommymilkies]

There is nothing wrong with it.  You get what you put in.  My dh is a professor at a cc.  We both went to universities.  At least in many CCs, you don't have intro classes with 300+ students, like my brother at UofI C-U has. 

 

If you search back, you'll see many people here are biased against CCs.  Some say the CCs near them are sub-par.  Some have no experience with it, but assume they are.  There's a stigma attached that does not extend into university transfer and admissions.

[regentrude]

It is certainly a valid path, works well for many students, has financial advantages, but it also has some drawbacks that have to be mentioned:

1. Some schools will not accept transfers. You can't go to CC and then transfer to an Ivy for Junior year.

2. The quality of CCs varies greatly. The transfer students that transfer to our university usually tell me that our expectations are so much higher, that they are not used to the work load, and that some of their CC classes did not prepare them adequately.

3. The last point also means that strong students will very likely not be adequately challenged by the coursework at CC.

Yes, there are exceptions, but it simply is a matter of statistics and numbers: since the top performing high school students usually will go to a four year school, the student population at CC contains many students who are either unprepared for a four year school or who return to school at a later point in their lives. Since a good teaching is always geared towards the students, the numbers will mean that a gifted student will not be challenged - because then the class would be too hard for almost everybody else.

 

This is something to keep in mind and to research carefully before adopting this path.

 

ETA: The above is not a statement about teacher quality one way or the  other. Both CCs and 4 year universities can have great, dedicated teachers who take time for their students as well as lousy teachers.

[...................]

Well I just researched and in my state the big name hard to get into state colleges all have 100% transfer agreements with the CC's.  Not only that, but a friend told me that her profs in CC were so kind, really actually loved teaching and would take time to help and explain things to students.  And with my son's inability to live on campus anyway, I don't see that he would miss out by attending two years at a CC and then transferring.  

[Chrysalis Academy]

:bigear:  :bigear:

 

We have a great cc nearby.  Besides being less hassle, it would be a lot easier on the budget.

 

My dh did it - cc then transferred to UC Santa Cruz and loved it.  I went to Cal State LA and lived at home, graduated from college with zero debt, and went to grad school at MIT.  It was a good alternative path to the highest (educational) destination I could have aspired to.

 

ETA:  we live in a highly desirable area, north of SF in the heart of wine country.  This is where a lot of good profs want to retire, or choose to live, and our cc benefits accordingly.

[...................]

Those are good points.  Thank you Regentrude.  

 

(I would rather my kid stress at age 19 over a higher expectation, then to stress at ages 15 and 16 over nearly impossible to meet expectations and goals, in a system that is totally against homeschoolers though I guess.)

[...................]

Yeah, I'm confused about the Cal States.  We have one of those really close and they seem to also require the a-g approved courses for admission, which puts us in a difficult situation unless we enroll in a charter or private school or constantly pay for outside a-g approved classes.

[mommymilkies]

I don't have a lot of experience with Ivy Leagues, but I do with University of Illinois and Notheastern. 

 

http://www.collegexpress.com/interests/transfer/articles/how-transfer/want-ivy-league-degree-consider-community-college/

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/16/education/community-colleges-offer-path-to-four-year-degrees.html?_r=0

 

Ivy Leagues and top tier schools are extremely difficult to get into, anyway.  CC does not make that path more difficult.  It certainly did not hurt when I gained admittance to Duke.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, I know that for the UCs you can be admitted by examination - based on SAT/ACT scores, even if you don't have a-g classes.

 

For Cal States, I'm not sure.  I went to a private, non-accredited high school and we sure as heck didn't have a-g classes.  But I had no trouble getting accepted and I got into the GE Honors program and got a scholarship, all based solely on on SAT scores.  I'm not sure why it would be different for homeschoolers.  Granted, this was 23 years ago . . .  :scared:

[...................]

Yeah, now they supposedly accept only a-g approved courses.  AND only a certain percentage of those are allowed to be taken online or off campus.  SO I would imagine the private schools are also only teaching a-g approved courses.  The private shcool I looked at did say they were a-g approved.  

 

What a bunch of halloo-y.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Here is the relevant passage from Cal State's Admission handbook.  So, you can be eligible based on your SAT/ACT scores, regardless of a-g coursework, just like UCs.  

 

Home School

Students completing high school through 

home schooling are expected to meet the 

same admission requirements as those 

of students attending traditional schools. 

Home schooling may be affiliated with 

high schools or public school districts. 

In those cases, courses presented for 

satisfaction of the college preparatory 

subject requirements must appear on the 

University of California’s “a-g†course list. 

Other home schooling may not be 

affiliated with high schools or districts. If 

there are insufficient courses from the UC 

“a-g†list, the CSU campus will review 

the application on an individual basis 

to determine that all requirements have 

been met. Applicants may be asked to 

submit supplemental information, e.g. SAT 

subject examinations, ACT subscore, AP 

examinations, etc. to document completion 

of CSU eligibility requirements.

[...................]

Yeah, I saw that.  So if he scores really fantastic on his SAT"s he can try admission to CAL State.  

 

But you never know how someone is going to test, and if that is the only criteria- again, that is a LOT of pressure.  Lots of amazingly smart, capable and bright children don't score so well that they would be chosen ONLY on their SAT scores over a bunch of other kids with great SAT scores and the transcripts they like. "Basically the idea is, if you are a genius, yeah, we will take a look at you."  Still pressure. 

 

But it;s nice to know.  If my son scores a 2400 on his SAT's we can always apply to Berkeley.   :huh:

 

Meanwhile, I just feel a lot of pressure is off my back and am so thankful God sent this friend from church.  When I first moved here before I realized the transfer route was such a good option, I was pretty freaked out.

 

But I'm still curious why homeschoolers don't talk about it more.  Save $$.  Keep kids close by when they are still young....IDK...

[Ellie]

I just moved to CA where most of the affordable colleges are woefully unwelcoming toward homeschoolers.  In fact the overall situation here is just so vastly different to where we came from (FL) where homeschoolers are welcomed and even recruited.  THe UC's admission is so difficult now that even the top performing students from the best school districts are competing with each other, as the UC officials are recruiting far more out of state students who pay 4 times as much tuition money.  

 

Stanford is too expensive, and there are no wonderful colleges for Computer Science that I can think of...

 

So it got me to thinking, why not just take two years at a lesser college, or even (gasp) a community college and then transfer.  Im not talking about dual enrollment but actually just going to CC or an easier to get into state college and then transferring.

 

Why don't we talk about that more here?  I met a lady at church.  Her son went to Community College and transferred right into Berkeley.  NO stress, no fuss, no pressure.  He was ready, sent in his transcript and transfer app and he was done.  They accepted him based on the classes and excellent grades he got at CC.

 

SO why don't we talk about that more?

 

"Unwelcoming"? Huh. The homeschoolers I knew when we were there did not find that to be the case.

 

UC's policies affect all private school students, not just homeschooled students. And as you can see, there are also issues with public school grads, as well, so I don't think it's valid to say that UC is unwelcoming to homeschoolers, KWIM?

 

That Stanford is expensive does not mean it is unwelcoming. In fact, Stanford has a very cool admission policy: they don't have a set of requirements for all applicants, and they think of homeschoolers as applicants from small private colleges who may have to do a couple of other things just because Stanford isn't familiar with them, not because they are homeschoolers.

 

I don't know the numbers, but the majority of homeschoolers I knew did community college and transferred to either CalState or UC. Some of us did c.c. instead of high school, since c.c. has no requirements for high school transcripts or diplomas, no ACT/SAT scores, and the tuition is SO inexpensive. This makes California unique (why should we be surprised?); most of the people who post here are *not* in California, and so they have to be far more concerned about transcripts and all that stuff.

 

Did you not know that c.c. transfers are *guaranteed* to be admitted to CalState/UC? They might not get the exact campus they want if their degree is impacted, but they can transfer later. So it isn't just that your friend's son was accepted because of the classes he took and the grades; it was that he had enough transferrable credits from the c.c. (which is not to put down his good grades or anything).

[Chrysalis Academy]

Yeah, now they supposedly accept only a-g approved courses.  AND only a certain percentage of those are allowed to be taken online or off campus.  SO I would imagine the private schools are also only teaching a-g approved courses.  The private shcool I looked at did say they were a-g approved.  

 

What a bunch of halloo-y.

 

Not parochial schools.  Maybe the super-expensive college prep privates, but there a plenty of private schools in CA who don't do a-g approved classes.  And a lot of those kids go to college.

[...................]

I didn't say Stanford was unwelcoming.  Stanford is actually very open to homeschoolers.  But, being IVY league, that would put us back in the high stakes pressure department.  One can't put all of one's eggs in one basket especially not an IVY league basket.

 

But yeah, if you look up, you will see we covered the fact that all UC's have 100% articulation arrangements with the CCs.  

 

 

[Jilly]

This was the path I took when I was younger. I took my Proficiency Test when I was 16, and I started at Pasadena City College the next semester. I went two and a half years at PCC and then transferred to UCSB as a junior at 19. I have never regretted taking that path, and I am encouraging my own teens to do the same. In doing so it takes a good deal of pressure off the kids and myself in the high school years as we are not worried about being competitive. It also is very cost effective which is important to us. 

 

As far as getting into UC schools as a homeschooler you can meet the a-g requirements by taking various tests including the AP and SAT subject test. You can see what is required here.  Cal State has similar rules. They require a-g classes but the requirement can also be met with SAT subject tests. I found this info online although it was from 2009-2010. I am not sure if it has changed or not. 

 

Other home schooling may not be 

affiliated with high schools or districts. If 

there are insufficient courses from the UC 

“a-g†list, the CSU campus will review 

the application on an individual basis 

to determine that all requirements have 

been met. Applicants may be asked to 

submit supplemental information, e.g. SAT 

subject examinations, ACT subscore, AP 

examinations, etc. to document completion 

of CSU eligibility requirements.

 

The problem I have with all this testing is that it costs money, and because I have twins, it adds up quickly. With community college they can take classes while still a high school student and it costs nothing besides the cost of books. The twins are taking their first class at the local cc this semester. By next year I hope to have them take two classes a semester and their junior year three. By the time they graduate they will have almost enough credits to transfer to a UC school and it will have cost us very little. This is one of the main reasons we are going this route. 

[...................]

Not parochial schools.  Maybe the super-expensive college prep privates, but there a plenty of private schools in CA who don't do a-g approved classes.  And a lot of those kids go to college.

 

Well then I guess they aren't going to UC's based on my current understanding. ?  I read the UC admissions pages today and they are absolutely clear that if the courses aren't a-g approved, you are not getting in.  I guess those kids just apply to other colleges, like out of state or private colleges.  If their parents have money or if they can get scholarships then that is just fine.

 

Anyway to wrap this back around, I'm just glad the CC has such good agreements.  Makes me chill.

[Teachin'Mine]

One thing I would suggest is to use Stanford's online calculator as they are extremely generous with aid.   Personally, I would probably go through the applications process for all the colleges the student would like to attend, while keeping in mind that the community e college option is available as well.  Less pressure and nothing to lose.   IMO the only situations, that I'm aware of (ETA:  at this very moment off the top of my head), which would not make CC for two years the best option (ETA:  For those students who want to go to CC first and for whom the CC meets their academic needs) is if the CC has sub-standard course requirements and does not adequately prepare students for university, or if the student would qualify for 100% aid from a 4-year university.  (ETA Previous sentence not worded properly, but I hope you know what I mean.)  Transfer scholarships are available, but in general they are less $$$ than an incoming Freshman would receive or there are fewer available.

 

Our experience with community college has been awesome.   As your state universities accept all in-state CC courses, I don't think you have anything to worry about regarding the quality of the courses.   As far as the quality of CC courses, ours are not dumbed down.   In some of the courses with the tougher grading professors, half or more fail.   Statistics shouldn't matter as you're not looking at how the average student does, but how well will your student do.   Many (most?) community colleges have honors programs/courses available.  You will find very intelligent and highly motivated students and some of them will apply to ivies, and other highly selective universities, and be accepted as transfer students.   I would suggest calling the universities your student is interested in and ask them if any students from XYZ Community College have been accepted as transfer students.   That would be your most accurate information. 

 

IMO CC is often a great option.  To get a better idea of what your CC is like, your student can take a course or two there this spring as a dual enrolled student.

 

(Ugh, this is probably all a repeat as 9 posts have been added since I started typing this.  lol I'm watching a movie at the same time.)

[...................]

Exactly!  And it's a lot of pressure!  Not only do you then have to have good SAT scores but also study and take a whole bunch of SAT subject tests.  I'm not saying I dont want to push my kids and challenge them but really that is just beyond necessary.

[mommymilkies]

Absoluely, any other state (IDK which ones accept all CC classes) double check the articulation agreements.  I always check mine before taking another class.  Here in IL, many CCs have articulation agreements for transfer of most classes. Not all, obviously, as I'm not sure where things like EMT classes would fit in.

[Jilly]

Exactly!  And it's a lot of pressure!  Not only do you then have to have good SAT scores but also study and take a whole bunch of SAT subject tests.  I'm not saying I dont want to push my kids and challenge them but really that is just beyond necessary.

 

I agree. And I want to say that I was considering the testing route. I have two SAT subject test study guides sitting right here next to me on my desk because we were going to take that path. Then I realized that studying for the tests was taking away from the joy of learning the material. It was stressing all of us out. I know my kids could take the tests and do fine, but I decided I don't want them too. I want high school to be a joyful time for them without all the stress associated with trying to get into a UC school. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well then I guess they aren't going to UC's based on my current understanding. ?  I read the UC admissions pages today and they are absolutely clear that if the courses aren't a-g approved, you are not getting in.  I guess those kids just apply to other colleges, like out of state or private colleges.  If their parents have money or if they can get scholarships then that is just fine.

 

Anyway to wrap this back around, I'm just glad the CC has such good agreements.  Makes me chill.

 

No, they are still getting in to CS & UC - they are doing it based on test scores.  It's the "admission by examination" option.  Like you said, it's a problem if your student doesn't test well, but it is a perfectly viable option followed by many.

 

Personally, of all the hoops I may encourage my kids to jump through, test prep to help them test as wll as possible is at the top of the list.  Having high PSAT/SAT/GRE scores opens a lot of doors, all by itself.  I'm happy to have the CC-UC transfer route as a perfectly viable option, though.

[lmrich]

I think it is wise choice. Besides all the hurdles you have mentioned, there are other concerns of sending off a child to college. Some kids are mature enough to handle the crazy college life, others not so much. Ultimately you know what is best for your child and what is best for your budget. On another note, so many kids are getting master's degrees that saving any money in the beginning could mean more help in the future.

[Murphy101]

We talk about it all the time? Different perspectives I guess.

 

Anyways...

 

It really depends. Does the community college have the classes that will transfer to the ending school goal? Does the community college offer the same financial and career opportunities as other options? Will it impede anything later? (For example, if I knew that in junior year they are given limited apprenticeship opportunities and those who were sophomores get first shot vs transfers, I'd be taking that into consideration.). Usually community college is cheaper and closer, but sometimes it pays, literally, to double check financial aid packages for other places.

 

Also, many people take community college credit in high school, so they did use it first, but they are still going to straight to uni after high school.

[Wheres Toto]

I think they can be the right step for some students.  Any student that may need remedial classes - makes much more sense to get them at CC.  Students that don't know what they want to study - good idea to get some of the general core BS classes out of the way at CC, while they figure it out.  Certain majors can probably be started at CC without losing too many credits during transfer. 

 

But, sometimes it doesn't work out so well.  While state schools often have transfer agreements with the CC's, that doesn't mean the classes are going to transfer into the major requirements, or even specific core requirements.  Often CC classes will only transfer as General Education or Electives.

 

I've done a lot of research on this because we are currently in the midst of a battle with my oldest's father over college costs.  He wanted her to go to our local CC (which is actually considered VERY good by the standards of CC's and has been considering offering some 4-year degrees).   I had to go class-by-class that she was taking at the state school and see if the CC offferings would transfer.  Most would not and NONE of her major classes would transfer in as anything but electives.  The state school she is attending offers a 5-year combined Masters/Bachelor's program - going to CC would make it impossible for her to enter that program.   She was also able to test out of some of the freshman level Math and English classes, which means she would have run out of classes to take at the CC or had to take classes that were at a lower level than she should have been taking (if the intention was to get an Associates degree).

[Hunter's Moon]

I attend CC and I absolutely have loved the experience so far. My professors have truly been amazing. Since most of them work only part-time, they have to work within their profession as well. My Psych teacher last year was a practicing Psychotherapist with his own office. My Medical Terminology teacher was a Nurse in L&D, and had been for 20 years. This is especially common within the technical programs, such as Dental Hygienist and Medical Assisting, as well as Automotive and HVAC systems. 

 

My CC also has a transfer agreement with all of the Massachusetts state Universities. The classes do not have minimal workload --- not at all! The effort the student puts into their work really reflects in their grade. 

 

Also, I have absolutely no loans attending my CC. My tuition and fees are all covered by scholarships and grants. That is a definite bonus for me! Of course, this will not be true for everyone in every area. 

 

[-M-]

I just moved to CA where most of the affordable colleges are woefully unwelcoming toward homeschoolers.  In fact the overall situation here is just so vastly different to where we came from (FL) where homeschoolers are welcomed and even recruited.  THe UC's admission is so difficult now that even the top performing students from the best school districts are competing with each other, as the UC officials are recruiting far more out of state students who pay 4 times as much tuition money.  

 

Stanford is too expensive, and there are no wonderful colleges for Computer Science that I can think of...

 

So it got me to thinking, why not just take two years at a lesser college, or even (gasp) a community college and then transfer.  Im not talking about dual enrollment but actually just going to CC or an easier to get into state college and then transferring.

 

Why don't we talk about that more here?  I met a lady at church.  Her son went to Community College and transferred right into Berkeley.  NO stress, no fuss, no pressure.  He was ready, sent in his transcript and transfer app and he was done.  They accepted him based on the classes and excellent grades he got at CC.

 

SO why don't we talk about that more?

 

As a former admissions and financial aid counselor, I am familiar with both the advantages and the disadvantages of the CC-to-transfer path, but three things have made it an excellent option for my students: (1) the quality of the local college, (2) the Illinois Articulation Initiative, and (3) the majors they've chosen.

 

We are wrapping up college visits for Miss M-mv(i) next month, and I have encouraged her to apply to her top four choices. Assuming she is admitted, she can then make an "educated consumer" decision: What, if any, scholarships and grants have you been offered? For how long? With what stipulations? Is the actual cost to attend still significantly more expensive than the CC-to-transfer path? Decision made.

 

As for how often this topic is discussed, I actually think it comes up a fair bit, which I greatly appreciate. It has been our experience that even in this current economic climate, people are still willing to sink themselves -- and their children -- into insurmountable debt, simply for the "privilege" of slapping "My child (and my paycheck) go to [insert college name here]" bumper stickers on their family vehicles. (I jest, of course, but I'm guessing many of you know what I mean.) Really, I am surprised that such a stigma -- social, financial, academic -- still applies to the CC route, but, boy, does it! It is only here on the WTM forums that I've "met" other parents with similar situations -- that is, bright students who, for any number of reasons, determine that CC or CC-to-transfer is a smart option.

[creekland]

It is certainly a valid path, works well for many students, has financial advantages, but it also has some drawbacks that have to be mentioned:

1. Some schools will not accept transfers. You can't go to CC and then transfer to an Ivy for Junior year.

2. The quality of CCs varies greatly. The transfer students that transfer to our university usually tell me that our expectations are so much higher, that they are not used to the work load, and that some of their CC classes did not prepare them adequately.

3. The last point also means that strong students will very likely not be adequately challenged by the coursework at CC.

Yes, there are exceptions, but it simply is a matter of statistics and numbers: since the top performing high school students usually will go to a four year school, the student population at CC contains many students who are either unprepared for a four year school or who return to school at a later point in their lives. Since a good teaching is always geared towards the students, the numbers will mean that a gifted student will not be challenged - because then the class would be too hard for almost everybody else.

 

This is something to keep in mind and to research carefully before adopting this path.

 

ETA: The above is not a statement about teacher quality one way or the  other. Both CCs and 4 year universities can have great, dedicated teachers who take time for their students as well as lousy teachers.

I agree with this totally.  In our area (meaning from our high school and local region) cc is intended for those looking for 2 year degrees or certificates or those who really aren't ready for 4 year schools for some reason or another.  The profs my guys have had (taking college level DE classes) have all been liked, but the content of the material is definitely not up to their respective 4 year schools.  My guys got some of the few As in their classes (as few as 4 in one class).  The caliber of the students is not the same.

 

This is not necessarily true in all areas.  One should investigate their area to see.

 

Cc is a valid, great path for the right student heading toward a 2 or 4 year degree, but it is not the right path for all students.  It can even be the right path for some given a certain area, but not given another area.  There are some students that I highly recommend cc to IRL, and others I mention some of the cons to.  It all depends on their goals.

 

On a totally different line of thinking - there are many aspects of a 4 year college that are also appealing and not available at a cc.  My middle son - right after freshman year - was able to get two lab jobs working at his college - top level research labs - by being at a 4 year school.  One of those has continued on into this school year. He could not have done that at our cc.  He's also enjoying residential college life - a dance troupe, an ASL club, an Improv club, a Christian club, and oodles of experiences that come from sharing residential life.  One can possibly get that if one lives on campus for 2 years later, but I can't imagine it's the same.  For some, this aspect of college is not important.  For us, it is equally as important as the degree.

 

But I'm still curious why homeschoolers don't talk about it more.  Save $$.  Keep kids close by when they are still young....IDK...

It is talked about - fairly often IMO.  It's the right path for some and not for others - just like with ps kids.

 

Both my homeschooled and ps sons have taken cc DE classes.  I think it's common for many hs kids to take DE classes.  Some get their 2 year degree or credits to transfer and others prefer starting as a freshman.  Each of us does what we feel is best for our student based upon our desires and opportunities.

[JennW in SoCal]

Well then I guess they aren't going to UC's based on my current understanding. ?  I read the UC admissions pages today and they are absolutely clear that if the courses aren't a-g approved, you are not getting in.  I guess those kids just apply to other colleges, like out of state or private colleges.  If their parents have money or if they can get scholarships then that is just fine.

 

Anyway to wrap this back around, I'm just glad the CC has such good agreements.  Makes me chill.

 

I am a current California resident with college age kids.  

 

Most of the homeschool kids I know have stayed in state, attending a community college then transferring to either a UC or Cal State school.  Some kids take the CHSPE, the Cal High School Proficiency Exam, which allows teens to be full time cc students after their sophomore year of high school.  The articulation agreements work, courses DO transfer.  Shoot, before kids I worked in an academic department at a UC, and the undergrad advisor worked very closely with the community colleges to keep those articulation agreements current.  Anyway, the best part of the cc route is the lower expense.  

 

Other homeschool kids I know have gotten around the homeschool/a-g course issue by attending a WASC accredited charter umbrella school which offers a-g courses.  There are pros and cons to the charter schools, but almost all the high school homeschoolers I know have wound up at one.  (I had one graduate from a charter and one stay independent to the end.)

 

I also know lots of kids going to school in Arizona (especially NAU in Flagstaff) and Oregon as there are in-state tuition agreements for CA residents. Don't remember how homeschool friendly they are, but it is another option.

 

Both my kids started down the cc to transfer path, but wound up at private out-of-state schools simply because the schools were a better fit.   With merit aid, the cost of attending an out of state, for one of my sons at least, is exactly the same as if he had stayed in state and lived in the dorms.  

[8filltheheart]

I agree with others that it is discussed a lot.

 

In addition to the other points mentioned, I thought I would pt out a few others......

 

While in-state schools often have articulation agreements between CC's and universities, those agreements may not extend out of state.   For families that are not mobile, that may not be an issue.  But we have lived in several different states since our kids have been in high school/graduating. 

 

Also, if your student is interested in applying to an out-of-state public university, same applies.   Our ds is applying to 2 public universities and we have met with the dean of the dept for his major at one of them.   The dean told us that if he had taken the courses at a CC, he would not accept the credits, but since they were taken on campus (another differentiator we have have come across)  at a 4 yr university he would. 

 

Lastly, the level of classes offered at CCs are limited to lower level classes.   So students that are beyond 200 level courses won't be able to take appropriate level coursework.

[Barbara H]

Why don't we talk about that more here?  I met a lady at church.  Her son went to Community College and transferred right into Berkeley.  NO stress, no fuss, no pressure.  He was ready, sent in his transcript and transfer app and he was done.  They accepted him based on the classes and excellent grades he got at CC.

 

 

 

This certainly can be a great idea. It is important to understand though that transfer admissions are Berkeley are very competitive, much as undergraduate admissions are so it isn't just be ready and you are in. The transfer acceptance rate for fall of 2013 was about 26%, that's higher than the freshman admit rate of 21% but not that much higher. There are specific curriculum requirements and admitted students have very strong grades. California is tough all around!

Seems like CC's come up a lot around here, often in the context of DE, but frequently enough in the context of transfer-to-four-year.  I am curious, though about "Junior Colleges", which I don't think I've ever seen talked about on the boards.  I don't think we have them around here -- is this a regional thing?  To my mind, CC's are public, relatively inexpensive, and commuter. Or, are these two terms really synonyms? A relative just sent her eldest off to a two year junior college, and I'm not sure I'm understanding the value.  It is a private, residential college, and thus not cheap, and I'm not sure this private school has any transfer agreements with neighboring four year schools.

[at the beach]

It is certainly a valid path, works well for many students, has financial advantages, but it also has some drawbacks that have to be mentioned:

1. Some schools will not accept transfers. You can't go to CC and then transfer to an Ivy for Junior year.

2. The quality of CCs varies greatly. The transfer students that transfer to our university usually tell me that our expectations are so much higher, that they are not used to the work load, and that some of their CC classes did not prepare them adequately.

3. The last point also means that strong students will very likely not be adequately challenged by the coursework at CC.

Yes, there are exceptions, but it simply is a matter of statistics and numbers: since the top performing high school students usually will go to a four year school, the student population at CC contains many students who are either unprepared for a four year school or who return to school at a later point in their lives. Since a good teaching is always geared towards the students, the numbers will mean that a gifted student will not be challenged - because then the class would be too hard for almost everybody else.

 

This is something to keep in mind and to research carefully before adopting this path.

 

ETA: The above is not a statement about teacher quality one way or the  other. Both CCs and 4 year universities can have great, dedicated teachers who take time for their students as well as lousy teachers.

 

As to the bolded, this is not always true. According to Yale's website, they do accept transfers from cc after one or two years at another school, and they specifically state on their website you can transfer from a cc. :)

 

http://admissions.yale.edu/faq/transfer-program#t181n1696

[regentrude]

As to the bolded, this is not always true. According to Yale's website, they do accept transfers from cc after one or two years at another school, and they specifically state on their website you can transfer from a cc. :)

 

http://admissions.yale.edu/faq/transfer-program#t181n1696

 

Thanks, I stand corrected on this point.

 

I would, however, worry about the level of coursework and whether a CC education for two years really puts the student on the same level as the class mates who took their coursework at an elite institution. While there may be subjects where this could be irrelevant, I would be very concerned about the level of math and science instruction for a STEM major, where often you could not even find enough courses at CC in the respective majors to transfer on level and not be significantly behind.

[regentrude]

Lastly, the level of classes offered at CCs are limited to lower level classes.   So students that are beyond 200 level courses won't be able to take appropriate level coursework.

 

I completely agree. Your DS and my DD would not even find any classes to take in their major, because they have taken the first two years worth of major courses already while in high school.

[mommymilkies]

Thanks, I stand corrected on this point.

 

I would, however, worry about the level of coursework and whether a CC education for two years really puts the student on the same level as the class mates who took their coursework at an elite institution. While there may be subjects where this could be irrelevant, I would be very concerned about the level of math and science instruction for a STEM major, where often you could not even find enough courses at CC in the respective majors to transfer on level and not be significantly behind.

It depends on the college.  My dh is a chemistry professor.  He has at least 5 students transfer to universities to finish their Engineering or Pre-med (Physics, Biology, or Chem usually) each year.  It's a small college and even still that knocks off all their requirements to get into the upper level courses.  Most transfer to SIU or U of I C-U which are great schools.  In CA they seem to also have articulation agreements and numerous course offerings.  NONE of them are behind because of their time at CC unless you count the ones who messed around and had to retake classes because they were consistently hung over. :glare:  Luckily those are far and few between!  Obviously you can't expect to spend more than the 2 years at a CC full time and have upper level courses transfer unless there is a transfer setup where they take some upper level courses taught by the university on campus (that's common at a few colleges here who have partnerships with the major universities).

[Lori D.]

... I am curious about "Junior Colleges", which I don't think I've ever seen talked about on the boards...  To my mind, CC's are public, relatively inexpensive, and commuter. Or, are these two terms really synonyms?

 

 

Yes, in the U.S., Junior College and Community College are synonymous -- 2-year post high school institution which porvides acadmeic, vocational and/or profession education, with the highest offering being an Associate's degree. The CC term has been more frequently used in the last number of years to emphasize that the school aims to serve the local community -- but they also gladly accept out-of-state students, and often have credit transfer agreements not only with nearby universities, but also with other other of state CCs.

 

In some other nations, a Junior College is either the stepping stone between mid-high school and college, or is more of a polytech or vocational trianing option for students not going beyond mid-high school.

 

(see the Wikipedia article on Junior College for more)

[mommymilkies]

I will say that as much as I hate my state sometimes, I do like the college/university transfer setup.  You will have to check out your individual states.  I *think* Ohio is set up very similarly.  Or so I've gathered from helping my brother out.

[Bootsie]

I agree with Regentrude that there can be good reasons to start out at a CC, there are also downsides that must be considered.  

 

Students who attend CC for two years and then a university for two years can miss out on opportunities because the teachers, advisors, etc. at the university do not know them as well.  I teach (mostly juniors and seniors) at a university.  A number of summer internships are available to students that can lead to great jobs after college.  Some are available only to those between their sophomore and junior year.  Or, companies want recommendations during the first few weeks of the junior year.  We also have some scholarship opportunities open to students who are juniors; many of these require a particular number of hours completed at the university.  Students who are new to the university in their junior year miss many of these opportunities.  They also miss opportunities to be involved in student organizations for four years, working their way up into leadership positions in the club.

[PhotoGal]

This only affects a small number of students, but I have heard that sometimes medical schools will not accept classes taken at community colleges. (For example, if the med school requires 4 years of science and a student took 2 years at a community college, the med school may not accept that). I didn't really look into it, but it is something to research if your child may go that way.

[regentrude]

It depends on the college.  My dh is a chemistry professor.  He has at least 5 students transfer to universities to finish their Engineering or Pre-med (Physics, Biology, or Chem usually) each year.  It's a small college and even still that knocks off all their requirements to get into the upper level courses.  Most transfer to SIU or U of I C-U which are great schools.  In CA they seem to also have articulation agreements and numerous course offerings.

 

Sounds like your DH's college is fabulous! That's great.

 

I was not so much thinking in terms of having taken the correct number of classes but more the rigor of classes themselves.

A substantial portion of our students take their math courses at CC because they are significantly easier than at our university (they tell me this is the reason, I am not guessing here). While this may be fine to fulfill the math requirement for students who will never again need another math course, students whose coursework builds on this will be at a significant disadvantage when they switch to an institution where the course with the same name was more rigorous and included more material, and where the subsequent courses expect this level of preparation.

 

As many people have emphasized on this board before, the quality of CCs varies greatly! That's why it is important to research carefully, as the existence of an articulation agreement does not automatically mean that the classes are of the same quality.

If they are actually on par with the offerings of the four year school, as it seems to be the case at your DH's college, that is  wonderful opportunity for students. Sadly, this seems to be more of an exception than the norm.

 

 

ETA:

 

NONE of them are behind because of their time at CC unless you count the ones who messed around and had to retake classes because they were consistently hung over.  Luckily those are far and few between!

 

Completely off-topic, but I find this remark interesting. You must have more motivated student than we do. Over the last decade, our stats have been consistently that about 20% of students have to retake introductory physics every semester. If the grade distribution of such a course did not have about 20% Ds+Fs, I would be concerned that either the grades were inflated or that the level of the course was too low.

 

[PhotoGal]

Another consideration is that the community college have faced budget cuts in California and had to cut classes. It can be tough to get the classes that you want (and freshman have last pick).

[Jane in NC]

Granted, it was eons ago, but when I taught future engineers at a public university, I found CC transfers were often at a disadvantage.  They may have had courses like Calculus or Chemistry at their CCs, but the content was often tweaked at the uni to gear students specifically for engineering/hard science programs.  One of my local tutees attended a CC to save money and live at home.  When he was accepted into an engineering program, he had to spend three years on campus to complete his requirements--not the two years that he had hoped. 

 

There is no one singular path that is right for all students.  Our local CC was fine for my son as a high school student for Chemistry and Composition, but none of the courses that he took as a first year student at his LAC were offered at the CC.  Granted, he may be esoteric (Archaeology major, Classics minor) but there are other considerations.  To what kind of school will your student be transferring?  Are there certain types of writing intensive courses, language offerings, lab opportunities at the four year school which the CC just does not have?

 

Also, our CC does not have research opportunities. How active are the faculty in professional associations?  Not all undergraduates attend conferences, but some schools do make this sort of thing possible for sophomores.

 

Does the four year college offer merit aid to transfers?  Some programs may look expensive on the basis of sticker price, but prove to be the same cost as lower sticker price schools when financial aid is considered.

 

All I can say is that being the college counselor for our kids can be tough!

[cathmom]

As to the bolded, this is not always true. According to Yale's website, they do accept transfers from cc after one or two years at another school, and they specifically state on their website you can transfer from a cc. :)

 

http://admissions.yale.edu/faq/transfer-program#t181n1696

  

Thanks, I stand corrected on this point.

 

I would, however, worry about the level of coursework and whether a CC education for two years really puts the student on the same level as the class mates who took their coursework at an elite institution. While there may be subjects where this could be irrelevant, I would be very concerned about the level of math and science instruction for a STEM major, where often you could not even find enough courses at CC in the respective majors to transfer on level and not be significantly behind.

You can transfer, but as a junior? I looked into transferring to Penn after getting an AA from a community college. I essentially would have been starting over. I went to Rutgers- Camden instead.

[Spy Car]

I don't know if anyone else mentioned this, as I skipped many posts, but the biggest problem these days (in what otherwise might be a good plan) is that the over-crowding/lack of classes means that at some CCs it can take up to 6 years to get 2 years worth of required credits.

 

It is a big problem.

 

Bill

[at the beach]

 

You can transfer, but as a junior? I looked into transferring to Penn after getting an AA from a community college. I essentially would have been starting over. I went to Rutgers- Camden instead.

Well, according to the link I posted, at Yale anyway, yes, it seems possible. I don't have personal experience, so I have no clue what they would or would not give credit for. Their website goes into some specifics and does not exclude cc credits from being accepted. I was just pointing out that the website at one Ivy said something different than what was posted here, so I wanted to add that bit of info in case it might be helpful to someone. I have not looked at other top tier policies. Also, I would think if a school the caliber of Yale accepts someone after a year or even two of cc, the admissions people must believe that student will do well in that environment.:)

[mommymilkies]

Sounds like your DH's college is fabulous! That's great.

 

I was not so much thinking in terms of having taken the correct number of classes but more the rigor of classes themselves.

A substantial portion of our students take their math courses at CC because they are significantly easier than at our university (they tell me this is the reason, I am not guessing here). While this may be fine to fulfill the math requirement for students who will never again need another math course, students whose coursework builds on this will be at a significant disadvantage when they switch to an institution where the course with the same name was more rigorous and included more material, and where the subsequent courses expect this level of preparation.

 

As many people have emphasized on this board before, the quality of CCs varies greatly! That's why it is important to research carefully, as the existence of an articulation agreement does not automatically mean that the classes are of the same quality.

If they are actually on par with the offerings of the four year school, as it seems to be the case at your DH's college, that is  wonderful opportunity for students. Sadly, this seems to be more of an exception than the norm.

 

 

ETA:

 

 

Completely off-topic, but I find this remark interesting. You must have more motivated student than we do. Over the last decade, our stats have been consistently that about 20% of students have to retake introductory physics every semester. If the grade distribution of such a course did not have about 20% Ds+Fs, I would be concerned that either the grades were inflated or that the level of the course was too low.

Dh's students tend to be pre-med and engineering students.  His Intro kids don't tend to do quite as well, but we have many international, displaced homemakers, "nontraditional" and sports students.  If most of those drop below a certain grade (checked up on by the departments several times a semester), then they lose their aid or position on the sports teams.  He has smaller classes, so 20% Ds & Fs would means a good many students do not pass.  If his students do not pass, he has less students for the next level course, such as Organic.  His funding and our income depends on all of those classes going, so he spends a large amount of extra time tutoring students who are not doing as well.  He's not an easy teacher-he was my teacher once (we had dated before that, don't worry, nothing illegal about it ;) ).  But he really goes out of his way to make sure either everyone passes or if they're doing badly, to drop out of the class before they face financial aid penalties.  We're a poor rural community, so the college works with students to keep them from getting to that point.  There are usually several grade audits and counseling about how they're doing in their classes and what needs to be done-do they need more remedial work, do they need more tutoring, do they need to drop some extra classes if they're overextended, etc. It was very similar in the last urban college he worked at, too.  There were a LOT more students, though.  It helped that there were dedicated lab people so he had extra time to aid students when he worked there. :)  I'm certainly not saying dh is the best teacher ever.  I've had some terrible teachers at both CC and Uni, but the system in this state seems to work pretty well.

 

I don't know if anyone else mentioned this, as I skipped many posts, but the biggest problem these days (in what otherwise might be a good plan) is that the over-crowding/lack of classes means that at some CCs it can take up to 6 years to get 2 years worth of required credits.

 

It is a big problem.

 

Bill

Whoa.  Idk what it's like in other states, but I've attended 2 CCs over the years and dh has taught at several, and this has never been the case.  Maybe California has more overcrowding, but even in major CCs with many thousands of students, we've never seen that.  The only problem I've seen is a lack of computer classes at my current college.  There aren't enough students signed up for them, so they often don't go.

[Hunter's Moon]

I don't know if anyone else mentioned this, as I skipped many posts, but the biggest problem these days (in what otherwise might be a good plan) is that the over-crowding/lack of classes means that at some CCs it can take up to 6 years to get 2 years worth of required credits.

 

It is a big problem.

 

Bill

 

I attend a CC with thousands of students in a large city. The age range is 16 - 80s. I have rarely seen this issue play out, and definitely not to that extreme. Of course, I do not know every single person on campus. 

 

I registered pretty late for classes this semester, about a month before classes began. I was still able to get into all the classes I needed because I was willing to take the 7:40 and 8:00 am classes. Not everyone will be willing to do that, so that may be one reason they will not get the class they try to. 

 

Any good CC would know the demand for specific classes. The Gen. Ed. courses, such as English 1, Psych 1, etc. should have many more sections than a Pre-Calc course. There have been instances where a student will sit in for the first few classes who was not able to get a spot, but usually they are enrolled in the course after the student drop period because at least 1 student will not show up, though the norm is more like 4.

 

If a student absolutely cannot get a sit in a required class, they can always take it during Summer session as well. Classes are first come, first serve in most cases. Re-enrolling students have a registration date about a week ahead of freshman, but there are still plenty of seats after that week.  

[Spy Car]

 

Whoa.  Idk what it's like in other states, but I've attended 2 CCs over the years and dh has taught at several, and this has never been the case.  Maybe California has more overcrowding, but even in major CCs with many thousands of students, we've never seen that.  The only problem I've seen is a lack of computer classes at my current college.  There aren't enough students signed up for them, so they often don't go.

 

That is worst case scenario, but getting out in 2 years (here) is unlikely now. The economic crash did not help. But there has been much discussion about this in the LA Times and other places.

 

Bill

[Jane in NC]

I attend a CC with thousands of students in a large city. The age range is 16 - 80s. I have rarely seen this issue play out, and definitely not to that extreme. Of course, I do not know every single person on campus. 

 

I registered pretty late for classes this semester, about a month before classes began. I was still able to get into all the classes I needed because I was willing to take the 7:40 and 8:00 am classes. Not everyone will be willing to do that, so that may be one reason they will not get the class they try to. 

 

Any good CC would know the demand for specific classes. The Gen. Ed. courses, such as English 1, Psych 1, etc. should have many more sections than a Pre-Calc course. There have been instances where a student will sit in for the first few classes who was not able to get a spot, but usually they are enrolled in the course after the student drop period because at least 1 student will not show up, though the norm is more like 4.

 

If a student absolutely cannot get a sit in a required class, they can always take it during Summer session as well. Classes are first come, first serve in most cases. Re-enrolling students have a registration date about a week ahead of freshman, but there are still plenty of seats after that week.  

 

So much of this depends on funding.  Your state is perhaps more generous than some--or smaller geographically.  In my state, students in populated areas are nearer CCs with more options.  My rural area has a CC that often has limited sections of the basic courses.  In fact, certain math and science courses outside of remedial classes are only offered in the fall or spring--not both semesters and certainly not in the summer.

 

It is possible for a student to earn an AA or AS in two or three years, but whether the student will have the courses that he or she requires for a particular major is a problem.  For example, my CC does not always offer Calc II annually which is a requirement for an engineering/hard science degree.  Students hoping to enroll in the nursing program face tough odds since they only accept a small number of students each semester due to space limitations on campus. 

 

Consider yourself fortunate that you have flexibility to take courses at any time of day.  Some students with jobs, children or transportation issues cannot do this. 

 

You note that any good CC knows the demand for specific classes.  But can they fund them or find the instructors??