Are college foreign language courses the equivalent of high school?

[BlsdMama]

Working on transcripts this morning.

 

DD is taking Russian I at the local comm. college this semester.

She will take Russian II next semester.

 

Is that the equivalent of two years of high school foreign language or just one?

 

[klmama]

It should be the equivalent of two years, with some variation based on the quality of the cc courses. 

[BlsdMama]

So, then do I assign both Russian I and Russian II to her senior year because that's when she took them? 

[klmama]

Yes, and use an asterisk or something on the transcript to indicate that they were dual enrollment classes at whatever CC.  If the college calls them Russian 101 and Russian 102, call them that on your transcript. 

[gingersmom]

Why is a college semester equal to one year of high school language?

 

When I was in college I took an entire year of Spanish 1. 

 

My daughter is in Spanish 4. So that would be the equivalent of 8 years of spanish?

[JumpyTheFrog]

I took five years of Spanish in school. Two years of middle school Spanish equaled one year of high school Spanish, so it was like having four years. I took a few years off Spanish and then took one more course in college. In college, I took beginning Spanish 2 and it was maybe a year behind what I'd done. So yes, that first quarter of Spanish at my college must've been equal to three years of HS Spanish.

[regentrude]

Why is a college semester equal to one year of high school language?

 

Because the level of instruction, teacher qualification, and amount of work required of the student in a college class typically means that they manage to cover the amount of material of a one year high school course in one semester.

Two years of college foreign language typically put the student where he would be after four years of high school instruction, and often far beyond, considering the abysmal quality of many high school courses taught by teachers who are not proficient in the language they are teaching.

[Kareni]

So, then do I assign both Russian I and Russian II to her senior year because that's when she took them? 

 

Yes, place the courses on your daughter's transcript in the year in which she took them. 

 

Make a note somewhere on your transcript as to how you determine the worth of college credits in terms of high school credits.  On my daughter's transcript, I included this information in the Notes section:

 

Courses taken at Z Community College (ZCC) as a high school student; 0.50 credit assigned to each 4 or 5 quarter credit class taken at ZCC.

 

Regards,

Kareni

 

[Teachin'Mine]

College language classes cover a lot of material at a very fast pace, both with grammar and vocabulary.   One semester is definitely worth a year of high school language.   I've never heard of a college offering Language I spread out over two semesters.  Maybe it was just their way of describing a course and it was actually the equivalent of Language I and  Language II.

[kiana]

Why is a college semester equal to one year of high school language?

 

When I was in college I took an entire year of Spanish 1. 

 

My daughter is in Spanish 4. So that would be the equivalent of 8 years of spanish?

 

Only if she's had 8 college semesters.

 

[klmama]

I've never heard of a college offering Language I spread out over two semesters. 

 

Funny you should say this.  I just looked at our local cc to see what languages they offered, and their usual first semester courses are also offered as a two semester course for those who think they need a slower pace, i.e. just like a high school course. That's the only one offered that way, though, and it looks like it's not part of the transfer credit program (agreement with state 4-year institutions).  I'm going to look into it, though, because one of my dc wants to take a language I can't teach, and that pace would be perfect. 

[Teachin'Mine]

Klmama I think it's great that they do offer the more spread out version, especially for those who haven't had any exposure to the language.  I just wasn't aware that it was available.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

In the 300 level language classes I took (Russian and German at two different schools), students were expected to be able to read news articles, chapters in history books, poetry, and short books.  We had to write longer assignments in the target language (paragraphs to full essays), give presentations in the language and watch video presentations in the language.  I think we had pretty much covered standard grammatical concepts at this point.  Most classroom discussion was in the target language.

 

This is a level of ability that would easily correspond to the end of 4th year of high school language. 

[regentrude]

In the 300 level language classes I took (Russian and German at two different schools), students were expected to be able to read news articles, chapters in history books, poetry, and short books.  We had to write longer assignments in the target language (paragraphs to full essays), give presentations in the language and watch video presentations in the language.  I think we had pretty much covered standard grammatical concepts at this point.  Most classroom discussion was in the target language.

 

This is a level of ability that would easily correspond to the end of 4th year of high school language. 

 

That was DD's experience as well. French 1 and 2 contained the major vocab and grammar instruction. The 3rd semester French course was composition and reading.

 

ETA: I should clarify that they did learn further vocabulary after the first year; they just not longer used a textbook (after all, you learn new vocab for decades when studying a language.). But all grammar topics had been covered, if I remember correctly; they only reviewed isolated aspects in the third semester.

 

The fourth semester was Masterpieces of French Literature where they read excerpts of French authors from the Middle ages to the 20th century in the original, with long writing assignments and LOTS of reading.

 

The 5th semester is a 300 level course on French culture with a very dense textbook about French geography and sociology in French, plus 15+ pages auxilliary reading per week.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

That was DD's experience as well. French 1 and 2 contained all the vocab and grammar instruction. The 3rd semester French course was composition and reading. The fourth semester was Masterpieces of French Literature where they read excerpts of French authors from the Middle ages to the 20th century in the original, with long writing assignments and LOTS of reading.

 

The 5th semester is a 300 level course on French culture with a very dense textbook about French geography and sociology in French, plus 15+ pages auxilliary reading per week.

That sounds even faster paced than my classes. Sounds like she's getting some great instruction.

[Teachin'Mine]

I can't imagine any language course being done with vocabulary, or grammar either (with the exception of Latin), after just a year!   The conversation, reading and writing components definitely picked up after Language 2 though.  I guess each college is different.

[regentrude]

I can't imagine any language course being done with vocabulary, or grammar either (with the exception of Latin), after just a year!  

 

Just curious: why would you make an exception for Latin? After all, Latin has a more complex grammar than many modern languages, since it has declensions.

 

[Teachin'Mine]

Because I believe that the grammar is covered in Henle Latin I and Henle Latin II, so theoretically it's "done" in two years.  

[regentrude]

Because I believe that the grammar is covered in Henle Latin I and Henle Latin II, so theoretically it's "done" in two years.  

 

I get that, but why would you think that not doable for a modern language? For many, there would be much less grammar to cover than for Latin. (unless of course you have something with genders and six cases and before-time/continuing participles, like Russian. Or a language that is crazy like German and assigns the genders to words with no rhyme or reason and consists solely of exceptions, LOL)

[Teachin'Mine]

Obviously I am mistaken as your university's French professor does cover it all in two semesters.   :001_smile:     

 

ETA ... or a language like English!

[regentrude]

Obviously I am mistaken as your university's French professor does cover it all in two semesters.   :001_smile:     

 

Oh, I did not mean to argue or sing praises of our course. Not knowing much Latin, I was merely curious why you wrote what you did, because I was under the impression that Latin grammar is especially complex, compared to other languages. So I thought since you made the comparison, you might be able to explain your reasoning behind it. I would never have thought to expect that Latin grammar of all things would take less time than any other grammar, but since you said it would, I just wanted to ask because I was intrigued. Sorry.

 

ETA ... or a language like English!

 

Actually, I found English grammar quite easy to learn. There are no genders, no declensions, hardly any verb conjugations... pretty simple. It is the spelling that is weird ;-)

[ThisIsTheDay]

So, then do I assign both Russian I and Russian II to her senior year because that's when she took them? 

 

 

Yes, and use an asterisk or something on the transcript to indicate that they were dual enrollment classes at whatever CC.  If the college calls them Russian 101 and Russian 102, call them that on your transcript. 

 

ITA.  Dd took two semesters (101 and 102) of Chinese through dual enrollment/community college as a senior.  She is taking a 210 level class this year as a freshman at a university.  The lower level courses use exactly the same text that she used at CC.

[flyingiguana]

Just curious: why would you make an exception for Latin? After all, Latin has a more complex grammar than many modern languages, since it has declensions.

 

 

Because there's no conversational component?  This takes up a lot of time in modern languages.

[flyingiguana]

Funny you should say this.  I just looked at our local cc to see what languages they offered, and their usual first semester courses are also offered as a two semester course for those who think they need a slower pace, i.e. just like a high school course. That's the only one offered that way, though, and it looks like it's not part of the transfer credit program (agreement with state 4-year institutions).  I'm going to look into it, though, because one of my dc wants to take a language I can't teach, and that pace would be perfect. 

 

Sometimes there's a course for absolute beginners that goes a bit slower, and a refresher course for students who have had the language in high school.  The refresher course goes faster than the usual beginner course because the students will have SOME knowledge -- just not enough to get them into the next level.

[ThisIsTheDay]

If you've got a senior in high school, or even a junior, there's no reason why they couldn't keep up with a regular-paced 101 class at CC.  There are several advantages.  They earn two high school credits for one year of language at a CC. They can get credit if they go to a state university, or they can test out of 100 level and begin with 200.  (Of course everyone's college will vary, so it's wise to check into this ahead.)

 

My dd went into her freshman year at college with 8 credits of Chinese.  Not only does this free up time later to take on an additional language (something she wants to do), but it also gives her a bit of a cushion to not feel pressured to begin freshman year taking 16 credits.  (She had 16 credits total that transferred.)

[Teachin'Mine]

Regentrude, because as Flyingiguana pointed out there is generally no conversation involved in classical Latin and classical Latin also has a "relatively" small vocabulary (I've read anywhere from roughly 1500 to 4000 as the figure for classical Latin).  You originally posted that "all" the vocabulary and grammar was covered in two semesters, and that is the comment to which I replied.  I see that you've since edited that.   And my comment about English was put in as a quick afterthought since you had added that bit about Russian and German after I had replied to your original post which did not include it.  I suppose that technically all the homophones and homonyms could be called spelling, but I've just always lumped many parts of a language into the category of grammar as that is included in the English grammar books we've used.   Whatever you want to call it all, English is considered one of the more difficult languages, even though our tenses are fairly easy and we don't have masculine/feminine and such, but we do seem to have quite a few rules and many exceptions for just about everything, including spelling.   But in general, when I type my posts, I just type off the top of my head as I don't consider these to be formal debates where each and every word needs to be measured.  I think of these posts as people adding their thoughts and opinions and generally not whether they're right or wrong.   Other than my daughter having taken Henle Latin I and my having taken Latin for a year many moons ago, I have no knowledge of Latin.  I was simply adding my surprise at how much was covered at your university in a year of French.   As I said, I guess each school is different.  

 

You know, I often type and think of all the disclaimers I should include in my posts, but I decide to just post it as I type it anyway.   I suppose I should have added the words "possibly" with the exception of Latin, but I didn't.   Not that any of this matters from a hill of beans anyway regarding the OP's original question.  lol

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

Regentrude, because as Flyingiguana pointed out there is generally no conversation involved in classical Latin and classical Latin also has a "relatively" small vocabulary (I've read anywhere from roughly 1500 to 4000 as the figure for classical Latin). 

 

Oh, THAT makes perfect sense, thanks! (I said I don't know Latin)

 

 

  I suppose that technically all the homophones and homonyms could be called spelling, but I've just always lumped many parts of a language into the category of grammar as that is included in the English grammar books we've used.   Whatever you want to call it all, English is considered one of the more difficult languages, even though our tenses are fairly easy and we don't have masculine/feminine and such, but we do seem to have quite a few rules and many exceptions for just about everything, including spelling.

 

I was just commenting that *I* did not find it difficult - compared to the other foreign languages I have been learning (and compared to my native language which seems to drive foreigners crazy).

 

 

 

  But in general, when I type my posts, I just type off the top of my head as I don't consider these to be formal debates where each and every word needs to be measured.  I think of these posts as people adding their thoughts and opinions and generally not whether they're right or wrong. 

 

Oh, I do that too, absolutely - and I hope my question did not come across as wanting to debate or being argumentative, because i did not mean to. I was merely curious. Thanks for pointing out the issue about vocabulary! Why is that, by the way? I mean, we have so much literature that has been passed on, did Vergil, Cicero and Cesar really only use 4000 words in their writing?

(To make it perfectly clear: this is a curious question of a non-Latin-person! I am not snarky or anything, just wondering.)

[Melissa B]

Around here only the first two semesters of college foreign language count a full year, Spanish I and Spanish II would be two high school credits. They are typically 5 college credits each.  After that the classes are 3 credits each and only count as .5 credits on a high school transcript.

[Teachin'Mine]

Regentrude, that's a good question about the Latin vocabulary.  I have no idea.  Maybe someone else will have some insights.  :001_smile:

 

ETA:  I think it's so easy to take posts the wrong way as it's so hard to convey intention and "tone of voice".   :  )

Generally speaking, I think that most college foreign language classes spent the first two semesters on grammar & vocab, and the rest on literature and culture.  Now I'm curious if there are any languages for which this is not the case?

 

As far as Latin, it also takes 2 semesters to cover most of the grammar and a good chunk of vocab.  Even though, as someone pointed out, Latin is more highly inflected than most other modern languages, and thus, one would think, take longer to learn, there are some things that make it easier.  First, it is very regular.  There are only something like 5 irregular verbs and a handful of irregular nouns.  Second, as someone else pointed out, it is extremely phonetic, so not only do you spent no time learning how to pronounce it (compare this to Chinese!), you can trivially spell any word you can pronounce, so there are no spelling issues, which also makes it easier to memorize words.  Third, the vocab is very easy, though learning it all never ends.  Most beginners learn about 1,000 in the first year, which is thought to cover roughly 80% of classical usage.  Moreover, there are a ton of cognates to English, and the semantics are very straightforward, at least to English speakers.  Ancient Greek, on the other hand, not only has a much larger vocabulary, but many of the words have very fine shades of meaning, making it harder to learn.

 

A quick look at an online vocabulary tool claims that Caesar's de Bello Gallico has 4,500 unique words, and the Aeneid has 7,100.  Of course, the latter is verse, so words much also be chosen for metrical reasons.  One of the reasons that Caesar is taught early is that he is famous for sticking with a small, consistent vocabulary.