The Smartest Kids in the World..anyone read this?

[Halcyon]

http://www.danielwillingham.com/1/post/2013/09/book-review-its-the-curriculum-stupid.html

 

Review above. I want to read this; e author of the review makes some very interest comments about rigor, challenge and American education.

[TracyP]

I heard an interview with the author on NPR. I immediately put it on hold at the library, but I'm still waiting.

 

This book sounds excellent. :bigear:

[Alte Veste Academy]

I have it on hold at the library too. Loved the definition of rigor!

The second assumption I often see is that "rigor" and "misery" are synonyms. Rigor means that you will be challenged. It means you may not succeed quickly. It means your cognitive resources will be stretched. It doesn't mean you are being punished, nor that you will be unhappy.

 

[Dana]

It's a good book. Well worth reading. Had dh and ds read it as well to discuss it.

[jennynd]

Nm

I also heard an interview, and am waiting for the book from the library.  I haven't read the book, but a couple of "likes" from the interview:

 

The exchange (high school) student from the US who spent a year in Finland (a very high performing country) was struck by how little technology was in the Finnish classrooms.  They had no smart boards, no laptops in class, and the teachers just lectured from notes, not with powerpoint.   In the US we have this fetish for technological solutions.  I think it is very WTM to think that you can get a first-rate education without learning powerpoint or a using a smart board or mandating that every child has a laptop or ipad.

 

Instead of running lots of standardized tests to figure out which teachers are good or bad, and trying to fire or improve the bad ones, they work really hard on the "front end" of teacher training, and set the bar very high for entrance to schools of education.  Interestingly, it is more difficult to get into school for elementary ed than secondary.

 

 

 

 

[craftyerin]

I heard an interview with the author on NPR. I immediately put it on hold at the library, but I'm still waiting.

 

This book sounds excellent. :bigear:

What show was it on, do you remember? I'd love to listen!

[GailV]

I'm so glad you started this thread. I heard part of the NPR interview, but had to get out of the car, and forgot to follow up on it.

 

Sorry to say that I don't recall which show it was. I'm in the middle of a bad cold, and my brain isn't working quite right.

[crazyforlatin]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=217641034

 

Waitlist is so long - worth buying?

Here's the show I heard:

 

http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2013-08-19/amanda-ripley-smartest-kids-world

 

 

[TracyP]

What show was it on, do you remember? I'd love to listen!

 

 

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=217641034

 

Waitlist is so long - worth buying?

 

Yep. That is it. :)

 

ETA: OK, just actually listened and that wasn't it. The one I heard had a male interviewer. It must have been my local public radio, but I can't find it. Anyhoo, this one is good too.

[JennyD]

I have read a couple of reviews of this and am also eagerly waiting for my hold to come up at the library.  

 

 

[Dana]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=217641034

 

Waitlist is so long - worth buying?

Possibly. It is very good, but I don't think it would likely be a reread here. Again, I did have the three of us read it, so if multiple people at your house will read it, it may be worth purchasing. She's an author I'd be pleased to support though!

[GailV]

Yep. That is it. :)

 

ETA: OK, just actually listened and that wasn't it. The one I heard had a male interviewer. It must have been my local public radio, but I can't find it. Anyhoo, this one is good too.

I thought Diane Rhem had a guy subbing for her the past couple of weeks, so maybe GGardner's link?

[BlessedMom]

Thank you for sharing & for the link.  i am looking forward to reading the book in the very near future!

[SorrelZG]

The library option is out for me so ... To buy or not to buy ...

 

Thanks for the interview links.

[MtnTeaching]

I am 4th on the waitlist at my library.  It will be a while.  I wonder if there is a decent Kindle price... off to see what it is.

Oh, and something curious that the author said in the interview, that no one followed up on,

 

"We educate twice as many teachers as we need in the U.S. "

 

 What did she mean by this?  Are we hiring twice as many teachers as we need?  Are half the ed school graduates not going into teaching?  Does anyone who read the book knows what she was getting at here?

[kubiac]

Oh, and something curious that the author said in the interview, that no one followed up on,

 

"We educate twice as many teachers as we need in the U.S. "

 

 What did she mean by this?  Are we hiring twice as many teachers as we need?  Are half the ed school graduates not going into teaching?  Does anyone who read the book knows what she was getting at here?

 

"Yet Rhode Island’s teacher colleges already churned out 1,000 teachers a year, about 800 more than the school system needed to hire." Ripley, Amanda (2013-08-13). The Smartest Kids in the World: And How They Got That Way (p. 91). Simon & Schuster. Kindle Edition. 

 

She says in a couple of places (I'll look for others) that the education schools here produce teachers at a rate that is much larger than the number actually demanded. Now, Rhode Island may export teachers, but I got the overall impression that this happens throughout to the country and it's mostly a function of low standards. It comes up a couple of times in her section on teacher training.

 

I'm just finishing it up and it's basically excellent, lots of density and value here. I think my overall takeaway is her description of American education as a "moon bounce" where kids can flop around for years without the slightest consequence, i.e. absolutely no negative impact on their lives if they are failing to learn until after they get out of school.

 

She compares the American moon bounce to the Korean "hamster wheel" and says (while that's obviously a false and incomplete analogy) she wishes we had more hamster wheel in our education system.

 

EDIT: Oh, here's another teacher supply bit:

 

"Nationwide, the United States produced nearly two and a half times the numbers of teachers it needed each year. The surplus was particularly extreme for elementary school teachers. The United States was not exceptional in this regard. The combination of low standards and high supply plagued education systems around the world, dumbing down the entire teaching profession." Ripley, Amanda (2013-08-13). The Smartest Kids in the World: And How They Got That Way (p. 88). Simon & Schuster. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

"Yet Rhode Island’s teacher colleges already churned out 1,000 teachers a year, about 800 more than the school system needed to hire." Ripley, Amanda (2013-08-13). The Smartest Kids in the World: And How They Got That Way (p. 91). Simon & Schuster. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

Thank you!  This is a fascinating statistic that I've seen nowhere else.  I must confess I'm a somewhat skeptical, I had several college friends who were education majors, and they all seemed to get teaching jobs upon graduation (though many of them burned out early).

[Laura Corin]

Spam reported

 

L

[TracyP]

A couple interesting tidbits I remember from the interview:

 

She said that no one here or in Korea thought we should be trying to emulate the SK system. It may turn a lot of smart students but the pressure and stress on the students is too much. She said the South Koreans are trying to look at what other countries do to change that.

 

I liked that she talked about how low tech these other countries are. I am not anti technology in any way, but i-pads and smart boards don't teach kids. I wish this got talked about more - not here, but in the larger conversation.

 

I love how these other countries look at training teachers. These are prestigious jobs that only the best of the best can get into. Wow! What a difference compared to America.

 

I have really been looking forward to reading this, and I'm not even on the holds list. I requested it through ILL and they said my library is considering purchasing this book, so they will wait until that decision is made before fulfilling my hold. That was 2 weeks ago! I may be in for a long wait. :nopity:

[craftyerin]

Thanks so much! I put it on hold at my library.  Currently all 5 are checked out, but I'm #1 on the list.  Shouldn't be too long!

[Soror]

Many Americans seem to think that it's not normal for schoolwork to be challenging enough that it takes persistence. In fact, if you have to try much harder than other kids, in our system you're a good candidate for a diagnosis and an IEP. 

 

I love this quote from the article.  It goes back to the American mindset that you are either "smart" or not.  You should not have to work hard at school, if you do you either you have a learning issue or the work is too hard.  I've entirely changed my *mindset* in that regard (thanks to the book Mindset and several others).  The kids know(in a good way mind you) that if they just breeze through their work then they are not being challenged enough and I will look for work that is at the appropriate level.  

 

Hopefully I can find this book ILL!  Thanks for posting!

[Dana]

I got certified in secondary education with a math specialty. Her comments about the education system in the US do match my experience. I honestly believe my 11 yo could pass my graduate courses in education right now with maybe one or at most two exceptions. All the others really were that easy.

 

My son says that Finland would be where he'd want to be from reading the book :)

[GailV]

Oh, and something curious that the author said in the interview, that no one followed up on,

 

"We educate twice as many teachers as we need in the U.S. "

 

 What did she mean by this?  Are we hiring twice as many teachers as we need?  Are half the ed school graduates not going into teaching?  Does anyone who read the book knows what she was getting at here?

 

Thanks to Kubiac for expanding on what the author had to say about this.  It's one of the quotes from the interview that stood out for me.  

 

I used to work at a university that had a large Elementary Ed program, years before I had kids.  That's where I started considering homeschooling -- I was appalled at the quality and quantity of students coming through the program.  Yes, there were some that were amazing, and who went on to become wonderful teachers.  But there were quite a few who apparently chose the degree because they thought they wanted some sort of college degree and this seemed easy because, hey, the little kids were dumber than they were (yes, I actually heard someone say that!).

 

This has continued to bother me all of these years, so when I heard the interview the quote above was exciting to hear.

[idnib]

I win! Or lose, rather. I'm #21 on our wait list! I'm sure they'll notice at some point and get another copy, right?

 

 

 

The exchange (high school) student from the US who spent a year in Finland (a very high performing country) was struck by how little technology was in the Finnish classrooms.  They had no smart boards, no laptops in class, and the teachers just lectured from notes, not with powerpoint.   In the US we have this fetish for technological solutions.

 

 

I wonder if we really have a fetish for technological solutions or if the lobbying/sales network at the state and local levels "encourages" decision-makers to buy this stuff.

[8filltheheart]

The discussion on the book intrigued me. Our library system doesn't have it, but they are ordering it for me, so I am first on the list. :)

 

I am curious to see how it compares with my own experiences. While I have a degree in elementary ed, my university didn't have an elementary ed program. You majored in something else and earned your degree through 1 full semester of teacher training courses followed by a semester of part student teaching and part coursework.

[Julie Smith]

Oh, and something curious that the author said in the interview, that no one followed up on,

 

"We educate twice as many teachers as we need in the U.S. "

 

 What did she mean by this?  Are we hiring twice as many teachers as we need?  Are half the ed school graduates not going into teaching?  Does anyone who read the book knows what she was getting at here?

 

I don't know about the US. But in Toronto Ontario I heard the waitlist for getting hired as a teacher is 8000 people long. My SIL has been a teacher for 8? years. Here you get hired in order of senoirty. So you get on the list, then new people getting added to the body. She is now number 80 on the list. She has been hired many times to fill in for other teachers, but likely wouldn't get a full time job for another couple of years.

 

I have heard that the wait list is almost zero if you speak French.

 

http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2011/06/15/two-thirds-of-new-teachers-cant-find-full-time-work/

[musicianmom]

I gave in to impulse and bought the Kindle book. It's worth the money in my opinion.

 

The author goes into the history of the educational reforms in S. Korea, Finland, and Poland. She asserts that what made the most difference in Finland was the strenuous entrance requirements for teacher training. Maybe that resonated with me because I have always been appalled by which of my peers became teachers. Only two of them, in my opinion, were of superior intellect. In the U.S., caring about kids is seen as more important. In Finland, being smart and well-educated is the top requirement.

[Dana]

I win! Or lose, rather. I'm #21 on our wait list! I'm sure they'll notice at some point and get another copy, right?

 

You can also ask about it when you're next at the library. When I've commented, they've sometimes bought additional copies. Worth asking rather than waiting for them to notice :)

[GailV]

Okay, hold number 40 at our library.  They have 10 copies already, and have ordered 8 more in the last week, which is probably due to the NPR interviews.

[TrixieB]

http://www.danielwillingham.com/1/post/2013/09/book-review-its-the-curriculum-stupid.html

 

Review above. I want to read this; e author of the review makes some very interest comments about rigor, challenge and American education.

 

I want to read it, but am hold #126 on the library waitlist.  I may have to cave and buy the Kindle version, because six months is a long wait for a library copy.

[Lilaclady]

I am #3 on the cd list which is shorter than the book list. I am quite interested in reading the book as I have been intrigued about the Finnish education system for a while.

[K&Rs Mom]

But there were quite a few who apparently chose the degree because they thought they wanted some sort of college degree and this seemed easy because, hey, the little kids were dumber than they were (yes, I actually heard someone say that!).

 

This has continued to bother me all of these years, so when I heard the interview the quote above was exciting to hear.

 

 

I think as long as our system is pushing *everybody* to go to college, this problem will continue.  I wonder if that's different in some of the other countries where they are tracked into vocational programs instead?  Does that prevent having "too many" of any one vocation?

[blondeviolin]

I'm in the middle of it. It was an insane wait through my library so I bought the kindle version. I'm enjoying it. It reads very smoothly. :)

[ElizabethB]

I am waiting on the book, too.

 

In the same genre, I enjoyed "The Learning Gap" and "The Teaching Gap," as we'll as the math specific "Knowing and teaching elementary math." They might be good books to reserve and read while waiting.

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Teaching-Gap-Improving-Education/dp/1439143137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1378263800&sr=8-1&keywords=Teaching+gap

 

http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Gap-Schools-Japanese-Education/dp/0671880764/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1378263962&sr=1-1&keywords=The+learning+gap

[kubiac]

FWIW, Smartest Kids in the World is probably my favorite education book since Paul Tough's How Children Succeed: Grit, Curiousity and the Hidden Power of Charcter and his earlier work Whatever It Takes: Geoffrey Canada's Quest to Change Harlem and America.

 

If you want a school-y book to read while waiting for Smartest Kids to surface in your library queue, Tough's books are worth a look. I highlighted the heck out of both of them. :)

[craftyerin]

I am waiting on the book, too.

 

In the same genre, I enjoyed "The Learning Gap" and "The Teaching Gap," as we'll as the math specific "Knowing and teaching elementary math." They might be good books to reserve and read while waiting.

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Teaching-Gap-Improving-Education/dp/1439143137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1378263800&sr=8-1&keywords=Teaching+gap

 

http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Gap-Schools-Japanese-Education/dp/0671880764/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1378263962&sr=1-1&keywords=The+learning+gap

 

 

FWIW, Smartest Kids in the World is probably my favorite education book since Paul Tough's How Children Succeed: Grit, Curiousity and the Hidden Power of Charcter and his earlier work Whatever It Takes: Geoffrey Canada's Quest to Change Harlem and America.

 

If you want a school-y book to read while waiting for Smartest Kids to surface in your library queue, Tough's books are worth a look. I highlighted the heck out of both of them. :)

Thanks so much for the other recommendations! 

[Grantmom]

Thanks so much! I put it on hold at my library.  Currently all 5 are checked out, but I'm #1 on the list.  Shouldn't be too long!

 

 

Wow!  Your library has five copies??  I checked our library catalog and we don't have it here.  I could request it, but I want to read it now after reading this thread.  So I looked on Amazon and it says usually ships within one to two months?!!

[Luckymama]

Our system has 6 copies. I am tenth on the waiting list, but I will get bumped to the top when the copy belonging to my "home" branch is returned.

 

I heard three different interviews with the author over the past week :D

 

Signed,

NPR Junkie

[Grantmom]

I requested it at our library, so we'll see.  I wish I had a Kindle!  I have a NOOK, and it seems like every book I've wanted recently is NOT on the NOOK!

[Alessandra]

Our system has loads of copies, all checked out. I got the Kindle version -- it is totally absorbing.

 

Thanks for posting!

[quark]

I requested it at our library, so we'll see.  I wish I had a Kindle!  I have a NOOK, and it seems like every book I've wanted recently is NOT on the NOOK!

 

Can you download the PC/Mac/ mobile version (depending on your platform)?

I don't have a Kindle either. I either read it on the iPad or the Cloud.

Just started reading the book.

[bumblesmama]

I have found it difficult to accept that a 23 yr old, graduating with an education degree, is qualified to teach anyone! As a TA, in another field, I have seen the fodder senior undergraduates produce in writing, and lack of critical or imaginative thinking. They are taught to spit back information. It can be just as bad at the graduate level!

 

I have a problem with biology, physics, chemistry, math, literature and social studies teachers teaching middle and high school from a textbook, having themselves NEVER worked in that field, with life experience in that field, and a true passion for that field. Passion about something IS contagious! The kids will learn if the person that is teaching something is impassioned and ethusiastic about it!

 

These education graduates are taught with the same "lowered-bar" expectations; then they are let loose on young minds with the same boring, indoctrinated, unimaginative approach to learning.

 

I am not saying ALL teachers are this way, but the ones that are passionate about creating a learning environment get burned out or sucked into the system in order to stay in the system.

 

Why do I home school?

[8filltheheart]

I have found it difficult to accept that a 23 yr old, graduating with an education degree, is qualified to teach anyone! As a TA, in another field, I have seen the fodder senior undergraduates produce in writing, and lack of critical or imaginative thinking. They are taught to spit back information. It can be just as bad at the graduate level!

 

I have a problem with biology, physics, chemistry, math, literature and social studies teachers teaching middle and high school from a textbook, having themselves NEVER worked in that field, with life experience in that field, and a true passion for that field. Passion about something IS contagious! The kids will learn if the person that is teaching something is impassioned and ethusiastic about it!

 

These education graduates are taught with the same "lowered-bar" expectations; then they are let loose on young minds with the same boring, indoctrinated, unimaginative approach to learning.

 

I am not saying ALL teachers are this way, but the ones that are passionate about creating a learning environment get burned out or sucked into the system in order to stay in the system.

 

Why do I home school?

 

:)   I swore I would never teach in ps and my kids would never step foot in a ps b/c of being required to teach in the "same boring, indoctrinated, unimaginative approach to learning."     I was literally told that I had to use worksheets, etc. and that I could not do the critical thinking activities that I had planned.   Blech.  

 

My sil went into teaching and was teaching in an inner city school.   She was told that the only way she was allowed to approach reading was using a word wall and sight words.   Her kids were not learning how to read.   She tried to incorporate phonics instruction and was reprimanded b/c she was interfering with the way the kids spoke and she was forbidden to do that.  She finally quit when she could no longer deal with the bureaucracy over actually teaching the children.

 

It is more than just the degree programs that are broken.

[TracyP]

...

 

These education graduates are taught with the same "lowered-bar" expectations; then they are let loose on young minds with the same boring, indoctrinated, unimaginative approach to learning.

...

 

I heard another interview with a woman who was a scientist (I'm going to say physicist, but I'm not 100%). She decided that what she really wanted to do was teach kids. She jumped through the hoops to get her teacher license and went on to get a job teaching high school physics. She loved teaching. She loved the kids. She only lasted 4 years. She said there was absolutely no intellectual challenge. She had no freedom to try new ideas and do new things in her classroom. She was forced to follow the textbook and that was that.

 

This is a paraphrase, but she basically said(in a more pc way): This is why intelligent people do not become teachers. You have to be able to accept going to a completely mindless job day after day.

 

Again this is so different than the Finnish model. They train top notch people and then they get the heck out of their way and let them teach.

[froggiemomof3]

I tried to reserve this book at the library and they sent me a message today saying that even though there are like 7 copies in the state system, they won't put me on the list.  :confused1:    I am going to try and get added to the list again next week.

[kpnick in nc]

Thank you!  This is a fascinating statistic that I've seen nowhere else.  I must confess I'm a somewhat skeptical, I had several college friends who were education majors, and they all seemed to get teaching jobs upon graduation (though many of them burned out early).

 

I once worked for an education researcher, and back in 2007, our state at least, had been anticipating a teacher shortage. A common figure (applies to many states I believe) is that half of newly hired teachers will change professions after 5 years. Many states even started alternative licensure programs (as a PP mentioned) for those with degrees who want to get licensed to teach. I can see that the excess in college teacher ed programs made up for the poor retention. 

 

Then in 2008, the economy tanked.  This changed everything in my state.  Teachers close to retiring were no longer retiring as soon as they could; newer teachers would be more reluctant to leave a solid teaching job for something else, even if they wanted to.  School funding was cut, so schools weren't hiring as much either.  The interest level in our local university's online licensure program (for degreed people) skyrocketed as people were looking for stable jobs. 

 

Would love to finish, but it's bed time...

[Halcyon]

Ugh, I think I am going to have to just buy the kindle edition. My library hasn't even received the book yet, and already there's a long wait list.