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Children seized from homeschooling family in Germany


countrygal
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Then that really makes no sense. It was 1982 when I was buying the Always-like pads in Germany -- complete with wings and super-absorbent core. I also shopped for them, and can't remember belted pads even being available for sale anymore at that time.

 

Come on now. We're supposed to buy the story hook, line, and sinker.

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I've had the opposite experience. My entire family there thinks it's cool that I home school. Each time we visit there and it comes about that I home school my kids the people (neighbors of my family, strangers in the store, at the park, cafes, and so forth) have all been fascinated with the idea. They see my kids and are impressed with what they see and hear. They usually ask a ton of questions and are genuinely interested in my answers unlike a lot of Americans who ask "loaded" questions because they really just want to defend their choice of schooling. I'm always more than happy to enter a conversation about homeschooling with Germans. I have yet to meet one German who has told me that they think home schooling is a horrible idea. They have all said something along the line of as long as there is some kind of accountability to ensure that the kids are getting an adequate education then more power to the super mom (or dad) who does it. I've had a few women tell me that they would not give up their hard earned careers to stay home to home school though. I can sympathize with that as there are days I feel it.

 

Yes, the above has been my experience as well. I have gotten lots of curious questions from my friends and family in Germany, some understandable skepticism, but always a willingness to listen to my explanations. I never had a negative response.

this said, I never had a negative response in the US either, no loaded questions.

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I don't understand this as an act of courage. They let the state take their children rather than comply with the law and try to change things in such a way that would ensure their children living at home. This seems to me like their kids are pawns in their game, and I have a difficult time understanding it as anything noble. I guess I can see it if they had worked this out as a family and made arrangements for their kids to go live with relatives or friends in advance and this was all planned out, but I don't know if that was the case or not.

 

 

I called it courage because they have a conviction and they were willing to risk everything to stand up for that conviction.  I'm guessing that the kids were well-prepared for this eventuality.    I doubt that anyone would risk their family for "a game".  

 

I hope that if a law is made in my country that would cross a deep conviction I have, that I would have the same courage to take a stand about it.  

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I called it courage because they have a conviction and they were willing to risk everything to stand up for that conviction.  I'm guessing that the kids were well-prepared for this eventuality.    I doubt that anyone would risk their family for "a game".  

 

I hope that if a law is made in my country that would cross a deep conviction I have, that I would have the same courage to take a stand about it.  

 

Having a deep conviction and being willing to risk everything to stand up for that conviction isn't necessarily a noble thing.

 

22_jonestown2.jpg

 

Was her conviction courageous?

(btw, this is not meant to be a snarky

or sarcastic question)

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On the subject of pads or lack thereof: I'm not sure why, even if one lacked disposibles, that it would be sooooo traumatic. I mean, seriously, women have used rags for ages (and at one time they didn't). There are mamas here that use cloth. How many of us in an emergency have had to use a rag or washcloth? What they dickens is sooo traumatic about starting one's cycles in Germany vs the US?

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The point is being missed. As Americans we have NO clear understanding of how life is in Germany. The two worlds and mid frames are very different. Things that we as Americans would NEVER tolerate are common place in Germany.

 

I'm very sorry you had such a difficult time. You experiences are unfortunate.

 

I'm American and I lived in Germany, on the economy,  from 1987-1992.  Nothing you describe is like anything I ever encountered . In fact, in Munich the area of the US base that contained a Burger King wasn't a secured area and Germans frequently ate there, so American fast food wrappers in a trash can wouldn't have warranted a glance. And, we Americans were  allowed to present German nationals with items purchased from the px/commisary if they were given as bona fide gifts and under a certain value. So, soda cans in a German trash can would not have raised any attention. We frequently had German guests and would serve American soda.

 

I remember police in the airports carrying large weapons, but if I saw it in our local villages, I would have been surprised. Nothing like that happened where we live.

 

It sounds like you had a horrible time living in Germany but I'm not sure you experience is a fair generalization of life there. I recall that it was indeed different than life in the USA, but certainly the brutality you describe was not the norm for the entire country.

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I called it courage because they have a conviction and they were willing to risk everything to stand up for that conviction. I'm guessing that the kids were well-prepared for this eventuality. I doubt that anyone would risk their family for "a game".

 

I hope that if a law is made in my country that would cross a deep conviction I have, that I would have the same courage to take a stand about it.

I don't think it is even remotely possible for children to be "well-prepared" to be taken away from their home and their family, and I think it would be absolutely horrible for any parent to even consider intentionally breaking the law if they knew something like that could happen.

 

Hey, I'm as passionate about homeschooling as everyone else here, but I'm not willing to have my child taken away from me just to make a political gesture, and I think I would be an incredibly selfish person to allow my own child to become a pawn in that kind of situation.

 

I don't understand "risking everything for a conviction" at the expense of my own child. This is about homeschooling, not some life-or-death emergency.

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Come on now. We're supposed to buy the story hook, line, and sinker.

And since it was not your experience, then it must not be true, seriously, my little town had 1 market to shop in. The options were very limited and the choices for pads were 2-3. I tried them all.

Y'all are viscous. This is simply ridiculous. My story is true, I could say that your story is not true. I have never in my life been accused or implicated to create a story. Wow. So, if I were to believe you ladies, then in all of Germany, eastern and western, there were no belted non adhesive pads with no waterproof backing available any longer. Ludicrous. I lived this. Trust me, I used those things! It was gross! Come on, y'all are not the end all be all authority. Neither am I, merely sharing my life experiences. Good grief.

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And since it was not your experience, then it must not be true, seriously, my little town had 1 market to shop in. The options were very limited and the choices for pads were 2-3. I tried them all.

Y'all are viscous. This is simply ridiculous. My story is true, I could say that your story is not true. I have never in my life been accused or implicated to create a story. Wow. So, if I were to believe you ladies, then in all of Germany, eastern and western, there were no belted non adhesive pads with no waterproof backing available any longer. Ludicrous. I lived this. Trust me, I used those things! It was gross! Come on, y'all are not the end all be all authority. Neither am I, merely sharing my life experiences. Good grief.

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but if anyone is being ludicrous, I'm afraid it's you. Your story simply doesn't ring true. At the very least, it sounds quite exaggerated.

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You know, the one thing that comes to my mind is that children often misunderstand, misconstrue and/or are not fully informed of MANY situations. She is describing something that happened when she was a child. Yes, many of us (myself included) have lived in Germany as adults and experienced different things from what she describes. Maybe parental choice or expense played more of a role than she realizes.

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Having a deep conviction and being willing to risk everything to stand up for that conviction isn't necessarily a noble thing.

 

22_jonestown2.jpg

 

Was her conviction courageous?

(btw, this is not meant to be a snarky

or sarcastic question)

 

Of course convictions can be in error because they are deeply held personal beliefs or opinions.  

 

I said I admired their courage to stand for their convictions.  It's o.k. not to agree with their convictions (or mine).    For the lady in your example, I have no idea if her conviction was courageous or not.  Maybe for her, it was . . . I'm thinking it must have taken some courage to follow that particular leader :)

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I don't think it is even remotely possible for children to be "well-prepared" to be taken away from their home and their family, and I think it would be absolutely horrible for any parent to even consider intentionally breaking the law if they knew something like that could happen.

 

Hey, I'm as passionate about homeschooling as everyone else here, but I'm not willing to have my child taken away from me just to make a political gesture, and I think I would be an incredibly selfish person to allow my own child to become a pawn in that kind of situation.

 

I don't understand "risking everything for a conviction" at the expense of my own child. This is about homeschooling, not some life-or-death emergency.

 

 

You're right . . . I might not hold that homeschooling is that important to risk my children being taken away.  In fact, I probably wouldn't because I live in area with really good public schools but they aren't in my situation.  I'm sure they didn't make this decision lightly and I'm sure that after a year of having the German government basically ignore the situation, they were probably hoping that nothing would happen.  

 

I am guessing but am  reasonably convinced that their children had probably been better prepared to be taken away from their home and family than my own children are at this point  since they have known for some time (since their children's passports were seized!) that it was a possibility.

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I heard this site was a great place. Several people I know suggested it stating it was a wealth of knowledge and a great place for discussion. Being a new person, I have not quite had that reception. I posted in another thread and the responses were lovely and kind. Not so much here. I have done nothing other than share my true story and have been basically called a liar. Pretty sure this site is not for me. Never been treated like this before, and never expected this here. Thanks for the welcome.

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I heard this site was a great place. Several people I know suggested it stating it was a wealth of knowledge and a great place for discussion. Being a new person, I have not quite had that reception. I posted in another thread and the responses were lovely and kind. Not so much here. I have done nothing other than share my true story and have been basically called a liar. Pretty sure this site is not for me. Never been treated like this before, and never expected this here. Thanks for the welcome.

 

I'm sorry you were treated harshly. I, for one, didn't mean to doubt your story. Your experiences were your experiences. My post was only to point out the YOUR EXPERIENCES are not necessarily representative of the country of Germany as a whole. In fact, your experiences are in direct contrast to my experiences in everything from fast food wrappers to tampons.

 

As Mrs Mungo said, it is possible that your memories have shifted over the years or that you might not have know all of the back story to give your memories context.

 

Also, I've made a post or two here that has not been well received. I've taken some heat for a few of them sometimes from the very same people who click 'like' on other posts. It happens. You move on. There is a vast wealth of info to be had here on this board. Please don't give up visiting or posting. Just know that not everything you have to share will be equally well received by all. That's okay. Take what you can use and leave the rest - including the criticism, if that works for you.

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I heard this site was a great place. Several people I know suggested it stating it was a wealth of knowledge and a great place for discussion. Being a new person, I have not quite had that reception. I posted in another thread and the responses were lovely and kind. Not so much here. I have done nothing other than share my true story and have been basically called a liar. Pretty sure this site is not for me. Never been treated like this before, and never expected this here. Thanks for the welcome.

 

I don't think anyone meant to treat you badly. But, there are a lot of people here who have lived in Germany (including me) and people who were born and raised in Germany who never experienced anything like what you are describing. Since you were a child when all of this happened, there is little context for the events that you describe. Those things cast doubt on your story, not in terms of you lying, but it terms that most people find it unlikely that it is the whole story. 

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The point is being missed. As Americans we have NO clear understanding of how life is in Germany. The two worlds and mid frames are very different. Things that we as Americans would NEVER tolerate are common place in Germany.

I fail to see how the experience of an unhappy, bullied American child in rural Germany in the 1980's is terribly informative towards helping us grasp the current situation surrounding the family in the article. Places change a lot. I don't think many *current* Germans fully expect to have their homes raided by the military over soda cans.

 

Honestly, the event was quite traumatic, and I wouldn't be surprised if your parents maybe explained some complicated international issues to a small child in age appropriate terms by saying, "They were upset that our friend brought over American goods like this-and-that." (Being in Germany as an American family at that time was probably pretty complicated! It sounds like they were simply being harassed on a pretext, possibly attempting to 'drive the Americans away'.)

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And since it was not your experience, then it must not be true, seriously, my little town had 1 market to shop in. The options were very limited and the choices for pads were 2-3. I tried them all.

Y'all are viscous. This is simply ridiculous. My story is true, I could say that your story is not true. I have never in my life been accused or implicated to create a story. Wow. So, if I were to believe you ladies, then in all of Germany, eastern and western, there were no belted non adhesive pads with no waterproof backing available any longer. Ludicrous. I lived this. Trust me, I used those things! It was gross! Come on, y'all are not the end all be all authority. Neither am I, merely sharing my life experiences. Good grief.

 

Vicious? I'm asking...what was traumatic about only having three choices of older style pads? Gross? Again, there are many here that use cloth because store bought creates health and skin issues and for other environmental reasons. Women have done so for generations. There are some women here that are old enough to have probably used belted, non-adhesive, non-leakproof pads here in the States.

 

nm, the event could have been traumatic for you even if you had been in the States. I wouldn't say it's because of these things, but some girls simply do not take well to the change.

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I heard this site was a great place. Several people I know suggested it stating it was a wealth of knowledge and a great place for discussion. Being a new person, I have not quite had that reception. I posted in another thread and the responses were lovely and kind. Not so much here. I have done nothing other than share my true story and have been basically called a liar. Pretty sure this site is not for me. Never been treated like this before, and never expected this here. Thanks for the welcome.

HUGS to you ! It is a great place. I am so sorry you were treated with less than kindness.....calling someone a liar in effect is not kind in my book, It really is a good site with great people.

 

To all who question the validity of 2 biscuits post let me say I can verify her family were treated very harshly and in a non typical way during this incident. My family was there and attended the church...we were witness to the unbelievable events. When we visited and brought any American food to their house we had to take all trash and leftovers with us. I have no idea why this happened to them.

 

I had all my babies in Germany and the pads provided had no adhesive on them at all....this was in 2001 when my youngest was born that I was given said pads to use. had my husband bring me some from home to use.

 

I know this post has nothing to do withe topic other than to say...wow, how amazed and disappointed I am that my friend was made to feel less than welcome and called a liar just because her experience was different than others.

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I had all my babies in Germany and the pads provided had no adhesive on them at all....this was in 2001 when my youngest was born that I was given said pads to use. had my husband bring me some from home to use.

 

 

 

Strange. I had babies in Germany in 1998 and 2001 and the pads I was given were just like what I was given in the US hospital with my eldest.

 

Again, I don't think most people were calling her a liar. I most people were saying "that isn't at all typical in Germany" and/or "I think there are things about the situation of which you were unaware."

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I assume almost everyone on the internet might possibly be not typing the absolute truth.

 

Isn't that basic internet safety?

 

(I suppose it's also good manners to refrain from saying so?)

 

(But, also, wondering if someone might have had a non-representative experience in a foreign country, or wondering if his/her remembrance might be skewed due to childhood -- those things are not the same as calling someone a liar.)

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Again, I don't think most people were calling her a liar. I most people were saying "that isn't at all typical in Germany" and/or "I think there are things about the situation of which you were unaware."

It also didn't help that she was brand new to the forum, and by her fourth post, she was already telling an incredibly dramatic story that didn't sound entirely accurate to several people -- some of whom had direct, real life experience with living in the same country at the same time.

 

I still believe that her story is exaggerated.

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HUGS to you ! It is a great place. I am so sorry you were treated with less than kindness.....calling someone a liar in effect is not kind in my book, It really is a good site with great people.

 

To all who question the validity of 2 biscuits post let me say I can verify her family were treated very harshly and in a non typical way during this incident. My family was there and attended the church...we were witness to the unbelievable events. When we visited and brought any American food to their house we had to take all trash and leftovers with us. I have no idea why this happened to them.

 

My guess is that this is NOT the norm in Germany. Given what many that have lived or raised their have said, it has led others to speculate that it is possible there was more going on than what either she knows or has mentioned (whether it was illegal activity or someone with a grudge). The point is that it's not a norm (and, yes, understandably unbelievable to others that have lived there).

 

I had all my babies in Germany and the pads provided had no adhesive on them at all....this was in 2001 when my youngest was born that I was given said pads to use. had my husband bring me some from home to use.

 

And the big deal about this is? This is like a red herring that was tossed out as though it was some character flaw on the German culture. Which is humorous when so many women here in the US are avoiding modern, storebought pads.

 

I know this post has nothing to do withe topic other than to say...wow, how amazed and disappointed I am that my friend was made to feel less than welcome and called a liar just because her experience was different than others.

 

She wasn't called a liar. She was told that her story didn't sound credible (and again, understandably considering how many others have lived there or were raised there and can testify to the laws and the culture). Some gave her the benefit of the doubt given the fact that she was a child at the time and children do not always have all the information of what was actually happening and WHY.

:)

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It also didn't help that she was brand new to the forum, and by her fourth post, she was already telling an incredibly dramatic story that didn't sound entirely accurate to several people -- some of whom had direct, real life experience with living in the same country at the same time.

 

I still believe that her story is exaggerated.

 

I fail to see how that matters.  How new she is, I mean.

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Having a deep conviction and being willing to risk everything to stand up for that conviction isn't necessarily a noble thing.

 

22_jonestown2.jpg

 

Was her conviction courageous?

(btw, this is not meant to be a snarky

or sarcastic question)

 

Oh yes,  leave it to you to pick an extreme example to try and prove your point.  You know nobody in their right mind would agree with that.

 

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 (Being in Germany as an American family at that time was probably pretty complicated! It sounds like they were simply being harassed on a pretext, possibly attempting to 'drive the Americans away'.)

 

I lived in Germany years before that, and the Germans were quite friendly toward, practically fond of Americans.  I think the PP said her parents were missionaires?  I have a suspicion that could have had a lot more to do with any possible hostility than their nationality.  The Germans are very wary of lifestyles that they perceive as drawing their citizens away from the national culture or that could create a sub-culture - like converting to non-mainstream religions (ie not Catholic or Lutheran) or yes, things like homeschooling.

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I lived in Germany years before that, and the Germans were quite friendly toward, practically fond of Americans.  I think the PP said her parents were missionaires?  I have a suspicion that could have had a lot more to do with any possible hostility than their nationality.  The Germans are very wary of lifestyles that they perceive as drawing their citizens away from the national culture or that could create a sub-culture - like converting to non-mainstream religions (ie not Catholic or Lutheran) or yes, things like homeschooling.

 

Especially if it was a small village. I've had friends and acquaintances that are from small villages in Germany. One converted away from Catholicism. She never has anything nice to say about Catholicism. I'm guessing that the Catholics in the area had nothing nice to say about the missionaries there to convert people away from their faith either.

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I had all my babies in Germany and the pads provided had no adhesive on them at all....this was in 2001 when my youngest was born that I was given said pads to use. had my husband bring me some from home to use.

Since you had all your babies in Germany, perhaps you don't know that the postpartum pads they give you in US hospitals also don't have any adhesive. They are huge things that practically don't fit in your panties. They have absolutely nothing to do with what is available in the stores for women to use during their normal cycles.

 

I lived in very, very tiny German town of 600 people in 1982/3 and found pads identical to the ones I used in the US with absolutely no difficulty.

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I fail to see how that matters.  How new she is, I mean.

 

Really? You trust someone you just met at the bus stop as much as you do friends and neighbors you have known for years? 

 

Oh yes,  leave it to you to pick an extreme example to try and prove your point.  You know nobody in their right mind would agree with that.

 

 

You can put people on an ignore list in your User CP and their posts won't show up. If someone has a tendency to get under your skin, then it comes in handy. Just a little FYI. 

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Really? You trust someone you just met at the bus stop as much as you do friends and neighbors you have known for years?

 

I don`t see this as the same.   It isn`t a matter of trust for me.  There is no reason for  me not to believe it.  I don`t think it makes a difference what her post count is.

 

And I guess I give people the benefit of the doubt until  I have  reason not to.

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Since you had all your babies in Germany, perhaps you don't know that the postpartum pads they give you in US hospitals also don't have any adhesive. They are huge things that practically don't fit in your panties. They have absolutely nothing to do with what is available in the stores for women to use during their normal cycles.

 

I lived in very, very tiny German town of 600 people in 1982/3 and found pads identical to the ones I used in the US with absolutely no difficulty.

 

That's why they give you those lovely, HUGE mesh panties to wear with the monstrous non-adhesive pads. :lol:

 

My last child was born in 2007 in a large, US teaching hospital in a large town in a very populated state (a hospital where famous people regularly have children - my ob/gyn delivered The Cake Boss's wife's baby. :D ) and I was given the humongous pads with the mesh panties.

 

ETA: the word 'wife's' to Cake Boss.  It was his child but his wife was the one delivering it. LOL.

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I don`t see this as the same.   It isn`t a matter of trust for me.  There is no reason for  me not to believe it.  I don`t think it makes a difference what her post count is.

 

And I guess I give people the benefit of the doubt until  I have  reason not to.

 

Okay, well, other people are going to disagree with that POV, and it does matter to them. 

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I don`t see this as the same. It isn`t a matter of trust for me. There is no reason for me not to believe it. I don`t think it makes a difference what her post count is.

 

And I guess I give people the benefit of the doubt until I have reason not to.

So basically, you're saying that you believe everything everyone tells you, no matter how farfetched it may sound, simply because you don't know them well enough to doubt them?

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I heard this site was a great place. Several people I know suggested it stating it was a wealth of knowledge and a great place for discussion. Being a new person, I have not quite had that reception. I posted in another thread and the responses were lovely and kind. Not so much here. I have done nothing other than share my true story and have been basically called a liar. Pretty sure this site is not for me. Never been treated like this before, and never expected this here. Thanks for the welcome.

 

This is a great site but the fact is people will disagree with you from time to time.  You will have debates back and forth in one thread with the same people you will be jovial with in another.  That is the nature of the board.  Perhaps you are right and this site is not for you, only you can decide that. You are new here, joined a heated thread with your extreme story and expect everyone is suddenly going to change their opinions of the situation with that family in Germany based on your story of what happened decades ago.  That is not going to happen.  Even with a compelling story, it is merely anecdotal.  It was your experience but clearly not the same experience that others living in Germany at the same time as you experienced.  They did not call you a liar, they shared their stories as well.  And guess what, that is what these boards are for, sharing with each other.  Not so the new one can hold court and expect everyone else to supplicate.  If you want to fit in here, follow these "rules" 1. don't jump into heated threads and then get mad when people disagree with you.  2. take everything with a grain of salt and let lots roll right off your back 3. don't post a woe is me swan song when you don't get the response you want, 4. understand the members here love this community and as such they work to contribute to it not just post in the hot threads and pout. 

 

 

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So basically, you're saying that you believe everything everyone tells you, no matter how farfetched it may sound, simply because you don't know them well enough to doubt them?

 

I was thinking the same thing.  

 

I am the type that does not freely and blindly trust.  Trust is earned as relationship is built.  Maybe that is why I am able to "catch" the fakers faster.  I don't know.  Whether online or irl until a relationship is actually built everything said is taking with a grain of salt and not believe sight unseen.  When it comes to online obviously I can't actually see if they are telling the truth, but that is why relationship is important.  YOu can get a feel for their online voice, their story, their history and see who is full of crap and who is genuine.  Until then I am a doubting Thomas towards you.

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So basically, you're saying that you believe everything everyone tells you, no matter how farfetched it may sound, simply because you don't know them well enough to doubt them?

 

Nope, not saying that at all.  A farfetched sounding story doesn`t make it not true though.

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I was thinking the same thing.  

 

I am the type that does not freely and blindly trust.  Trust is earned as relationship is built.  Maybe that is why I am able to "catch" the fakers faster.  I don't know.  Whether online or irl until a relationship is actually built everything said is taking with a grain of salt and not believe sight unseen.  When it comes to online obviously I can't actually see if they are telling the truth, but that is why relationship is important.  YOu can get a feel for their online voice, their story, their history and see who is full of crap and who is genuine.  Until then I am a doubting Thomas towards you.

 

Well i don`t spend alot of time online building relationships with people so that is probably why her story doesn`t bother me and if it turns out she lied, it still wouldn`t bother me.  It will be ``oh well`` for me and I would just go on with my life.

 

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Well i don`t spend alot of time online building relationships with people so that is probably why her story doesn`t bother me and if it turns out she lied, it still wouldn`t bother me. It will be ``oh well`` for me and I would just go on with my life.

 

I hardly think any of us will lose any sleep over it.

 

In fact, you seem more concerned about it than we do. :)

 

For someone who doesn't care about building online relationships, you certainly seem quite worried that we are doubting someone's story.

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I hardly think any of us will lose any sleep over it.

 

In fact, you seem more concerned about it than we do. :)

 

Nope, not really.  Just wondering the reason for the distrust is all as it isn`t the first time I`ve seen it on this forum.  More curious then anything.

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I had all my babies in Germany and the pads provided had no adhesive on them at all....this was in 2001 when my youngest was born that I was given said pads to use. had my husband bring me some from home to use.

 

The pads provided by the hospital for postpartum bleeding may well have been non adhesive ones.

I have lived in Germany from 1968 to 2001, have given birth to children there, had access to adhesive pads for regular use, and yes, been provided non-adhesive postnatal pads (and disposable mesh underwear to use them with) while in the hospital.

Shrug.

ETA: And I even remember the belted ones, because those were the only ones we had in the East when I started to need them. (Thankfully, only for a short time, until they developed adhesives.). They were uncomfortable, yes, but hardly traumatizing.

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Oh yes,  leave it to you to pick an extreme example to try and prove your point.  You know nobody in their right mind would agree with that.

 

 

The only point was that acting on strong convictions isn't noble just because one has strong convictions. That's a silly rationalization, made clear by the image. 

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The pads provided by the hospital for postpartum bleeding may well have been non adhesive ones.

I have lived in Germany from 1968 to 2001, have given birth to children there, had access to adhesive pads for regular use, and yes, been provided non-adhesive postnatal pads (and disposable mesh underwear to use them with) while in the hospital.

Shrug.

 

That is what I was provided with in the US in 2003.

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