Apples & Pears, Barton, or....???

[allymom]

I'm feeling VERY frustrated with teaching my older two girls to read and spell.  I don't think it's me, but there's this nagging doubt that I'll not be able to teach my younger children to read either.  My oldest (10, 5th grade) has been evaluated and definitely has dyslexia and some auditory processing issues.  My 8 year old has not had any evaluation, but I wouldn't be suprised if she was ADHD and dyslexic.  Last year we started with the LIPS program, we only did the first portion, and then moved to The Phonics Road to Spelling and Reading for actual reading/spelling instruction.  I drilled the phonograms daily and they really seemed to have them down.  Spelling went okay.  My 10 year old seems to be able to memorize lists well if she practices it.  My 8 year old is a bit more random and never got 100% on any of the spelling tests.  Now after a few months off from that program...their reading/spelling skills have gone way downhill.  My 10 year old reads fairly well, but when she reads out loud I find her substituting words that look similar, all the time.  Like chair and chart, sometimes, they don't even have to be that close.  Or a completely different word that has the same meaning, like "cooked" for "She prepared breakfast."  Basically, her reading and spelling skills are good enough to get by, but not great.  My 8 year old is doing much worse, though no worse than my 10 year old was doing at her age.  Spellings for words are kind of sounded out, but she still uses "f" for "v" or "th" sounds.  She speaks them correctly now, but must be thinking them wrong.  I don't think autocorrect would be able to figure out most of her spellings.  She has trouble sounding out words even though we drilled the phonograms into the ground.  She can read words she has memorized easily and stumbles through the rest.  I'm not sure where to go from here.  I feel like I'm failing them and not sure how I'll even have time to ever teach my younger children.  I'm considering/looking into/researching Barton, Apples & Pears, Dancing Bears, All About Spelling...and anything else you guys might suggest.  I have also sent out an email to the Barton people about tutors in my area.  I'm not sure if that's something we can afford, but I'm very frustrated with this area and about ready to hand it off.  

[City Mouse]

I have only used Barton. I started this summer with my DS11. I like it because it goes slow and breaks everything down into very small steps. This way I was able to find small details that he had trouble with that had been missed in PS. I also like that it does not look babyish and obviously isn't a program that was first designed for little kids. There are stories for each lesson (starting with level 3) that were writen specifically for older learners. I like how you are always supposed to end a lesson with something they are successful at doing. After so many years of having trouble, it is nice that he can feel successful. We both like the routine of doing the lessons the same way every time.

 

The training DVDs are very detailed but a bit repetitive and boring at times. The materials are of good quality and will last through multiple students.

 

The only down side to the program is the expense.

[Cynful]

I have used AAS, Barton and Apples & Pears.  AAS I love, but my son could not handle it at the time.  Barton, we've both hated and the rules are just too much (don't hate me).  Apples & Pears is what is working for us right now.  The more we use it, the better it gets and the better my son gets.  I'd start with the Fast Track reading or the last level - USE THE CURSOR LIKE THEY SUGGEST.  The cursor/notched card has really, really made a difference for my son.  He HATES using it, but it works. My son had similar reading errors of just guessing a word in context or not finishing truly reading the word so substituting something he knew.  The cursor helps that immediately.  If you feel they need some more phonics awareness, Literacy Leaders from EPS is good.  My plan is to go back to AAS after we finish all of Apples & Pears, though I may go to Sequential Spelling instead - that's still up in the air and also depends on time.  This is the first time I've seen him transfer what he's learning to his writing.  As always, your mileage may vary.

 

Good luck,

[allymom]

Thank you both!  Apples and Pears looks like it could be a good fit for us, especially for my older dd.  I'm not sure if she would need Dancing Bears, but my 8 year old might.  I was really hoping to phase them out of needing mommy intensive instruction soon so I could focus on my kindergartener more.  Oh well.

[OneStepAtATime]

We are using Barton and had bumps at first but the system is definitely working for both of my kids, now.  My daughter, who was  TERRIBLE at spelling and frequently earned single digit numbers on her spelling tests even after studying every day for a week, just passed a criterion referenced, independently administered test of a list of words she had not seen and did not study ahead of time with a 100.  Through the whole test she was using skills she learned with Barton to figure out how to spell the words.

 

 I love Barton because my kids are no longer dependent on having seen a word before to know how to spell it.  Reading is also improving quite well.  We aren't at grade level yet but we are far, far closer than we were a year ago.  We move slowly, do lots of review so the rules because automatic, and incorporate games.  We also do shorter sessions 5 days a week (sometimes as short as 20 minutes) instead of 2 or three long sessions.  The kids don't burn out, they are far more enthusiastic about using the system now and there is plenty of review to help them retain the info. long term.  Sometimes, people rush the program and the information doesn't stick, so we are trying hard not to do that.  My daughter actually takes 2 weeks with each lesson or she doesn't retain the rules.  Just this last week, she was frustrated that a rule wasn't sticking.  I reminded her that with practice, review and enthusiasm, she had overcome other hurdles.  She kept trying.  Suddenly, this week she was spelling out words and looked up at me with a huge grin.  She realized she hadn't had to think through the rule at all.  It just came automatically as she was writing.

 

By the way, my son has an auditory processing issue.  I know that you mentioned one of your children does, too.  That can really negatively effect learning in subtle but debilitating ways.  Even if you don't go with Barton. take the free, very short test they have for tutors and then administer the student test to your kids.  If either has an auditory processing issue that the beginning of LiPS didn't remediate, the test should catch it.  That really needs to be addressed BEFORE you start them on Barton or AAS or Apples and Pears.  We re-mediated my son using LiPS even though he hated it, then re-administered the Barton test and he showed remarkable improvement.  He now does Barton and does well, but he still sometimes substitutes sounds that don't belong, so we go slow, follow Barton's recommendations and it works really well.

 

I was always a good student in school.  I do not have dyslexia and language arts was my strongest subject.  Even I am learning a LOT from this program.  It was kind of irritating to use at first, but once I embraced the system, used the recommendations they have for when you get stuck or how to handle resistant pre-teens and teens, things really smoothed out.  After my daughter passed that criterion referenced spelling test, she ASKED to do extra Barton lessons because she saw that it was reaping results.

 

Barton isn't for everyone, but if your kids are really struggling, i recommend you at least take the free test then give it to the kids.  It may help you determine what the issues might be.

[OneStepAtATime]

One more thing, the videos really are pretty boring for teaching tutors to teach, but if you can just ignore that and follow her instructions, including for when things don't work, it DOES work.  I am so grateful for those videos no matter how boring they are because they really do help.  Now that we have been doing the system for a while, I don't need nearly as much hand holding but I still watch the videos for each lesson to smooth out my own delivery and make certain I am not missing a step.  You cannot rush this program.  Also, she goes slow and is repetitive on the DVD not because she thinks we are all idiots but because many parents have never tutored before and some may be dyslexic since it runs in families.  The DVDs have to support the newbie and dyslexic parents as well as the tutor savvy ones.  It may not be fast paced enough for some, but if you are the type that just has to rush to the finish line without taking every step to get there, this program is not for you and your kids will not succeed using it.

 

All kids are different and all parents are different so it is hard to know what would work best for your family.  I hear that AAS, AAR, Apples and Pears, and Sequential Spelling are all good, and I know several people using AAS and AAR very successfully.  However, each approaches the situation differently.  It may take a while to find a good fit.

 

Good luck!

[Lecka]

Have you read Overcoming Dyslexia?  I think it is good for helping me organize my thoughts and identify problems, a little bit. 

 

I am also going to share a video that helped me a lot!  I have spent a lot of time sitting with my son while he reads (at an easier level!) in addition to reading programs.  The notched card helped a lot, and also these videos helped me a lot.  Also advice to follow the line with a pencil, and stop the pencil at a mistake, as a non-oral signal to make a correction.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RbA3VKeQXw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06yj-onS7kY

 

My son didn't have the kind of problems you are mentioning.  But those are just things that helped me when I was sitting with him when he read, apart from what reading program I used. 

[OneStepAtATime]

I thought of a few more things that might matter to you (sorry!).  

 

1.  Barton IS expensive but far cheaper than what we were paying for specialized tutoring.  We were burning through $800+ every month and a half.  It was horrible.  And the kids were not progressing with the tutoring sessions nearly as well as they are now with Barton.  Barton has a high resale value, too, so once you are done using it, you can resell it for nearly the price you paid for it.

 

2.  As someone else mentioned, the materials are really sturdy, too, so they will last for a long time.  

 

3.  To determine initial cost, each level is about $250 and Level 1 and Level 2 go relatively quickly, so you will almost certainly need to purchase both in one year and if your kids pick things up sort of fast, you may start Level 3 that year, too.  After that, some parents use a Level a year, with lots of review.  Others go more quickly and cover 2-3 or even 4 levels a year.  Even with all the review we are doing, we are trying to complete 3 levels in one year, but the levels get much, much longer and more intense after Level 2.  Level 4 is the longest and arguably the most intense, so many take an entire year for that one.

 

4.   I have had friends who completed a Level then took 2-3 months off for summer break and discovered their children had lost almost everything. They had to start over with the previous Level before they could progress to the next one.  I don't think they reviewed enough and I think they progressed through the previous level too quickly, but even so with dyslexic kids especially, you have to keep reviewing, no matter what system you use.  During the summer, we took 2 weeks off, then did short sessions every day for a month, then took another 2 weeks off and went back to sessions every day again.  It worked well.  The kids felt good about the fact that they were retaining the info and we still got to take breaks.  During this school year we are going to try taking a one week break every 6 weeks.

 

5.   Once you complete a level, if you cannot afford to buy another Level right away, just keep reviewing the level you already have, even it is only twice a week.   The kids retain the information and getting additional review will help them progress more smoothly in the next level anyway.  

 

 

6.  I also hear that AAR and AAS are really worth the investment, too, but that system does not start with really basic sound associations like Barton does in LEVEL 1.  Some kids don't need to go back to that really basic step, but my kids definitely did.  LEVEL 1 seemed SO basic that I thought we had made a mistake in ordering it.  I was wrong.  It helped tremendously as we heading into higher levels.  Not all kids need that, though.

 

Sorry i am so long-winded on this.  I didn't have anyone to advise me when I was first looking for help for my kids and we made a LOT of mistakes along the way.  I just wanted to give you as much info as I could think of so you could compare it with what others are saying and make an informed decision.  Parenting kids with special issues is challenging, but teaching them is even more so.  Again, good luck!

[OneStepAtATime]

The Mislabeled Child and The Dyslexic Advantage by Brock and Fernette Eide are great resources, too.  Both books are based on current scientific research and really help explain things, including all the possible strengths that you may not be aware they have.  In fact, I think both books should be required reading for public school teachers and administrators.

[allymom]

Thank you all for the responses.  I'm taking it all in and watching the videos and looking at websites.  I'll look into all the books suggested too.  My husband is dyslexic, but with a high IQ and never struggled with learning to read.  His difficulties were in other areas.  Reading came so easily to me that I've really struggled with why my girls can't seem to latch onto this.  My oldest is reading well (in her opinion) and has great comprehension, but her out loud reading is difficult to listen to and with the problems I mentioned above.  So I do think she could use some remedial reading work, again.  

[OneStepAtATime]

Wish you all the best.  I know it is difficult to know where to turn.