Math - Am I on the right track

[coffeefreak]

I've been perusing old threads and new threads regarding my oldest's nemesis, MATH. :scared: 

 

 We're ready for Pre-Algebra (seriously never thought we'd make it), and I'm thinking about combining Math U See with Bob Jones' Distance Online Learning classes for this year.  My thoughts are, she does really well with Math U See, but I know it's not going to be enough for High School.  After reading several threads where people have talked about their experiences, I feel like it's a good tutor type program, but not a good stand alone program.  I also feel like the time is coming where colleges are going to be very familiar with different homeschooling curriculum, and it would be better to have her in a mainstream type textbook curriculum, rather than an alternative curriculum.  So, here are my questions:

 

1.  Am I on the right track?  Do you think my plan is a good one?

2.  Is it better to have her in a mainstream program making Cs, rather than in an alternative program like Math U See making As?

3.  We own MUS Pre-Algebra, but I've heard and read that Teaching Textbooks is a better program for High School Algebra and Geometry.  Should we switch to TT next year alongside a traditional textbook program?

4.  If you are using two programs, how do you grade?  I was thinking we would list BJU as the curriculum and only grade those assignments/tests.  MUS would be a tutor type program and the assignments would not be graded.

 

I think that's it for now. Thanks for your help!

Dorinda

[regentrude]

 We're ready for Pre-Algebra (seriously never thought we'd make it), and I'm thinking about combining Math U See with Bob Jones' Distance Online Learning classes for this year.  My thoughts are, she does really well with Math U See, but I know it's not going to be enough for High School.  After reading several threads where people have talked about their experiences, I feel like it's a good tutor type program, but not a good stand alone program.  I also feel like the time is coming where colleges are going to be very familiar with different homeschooling curriculum, and it would be better to have her in a mainstream type textbook curriculum, rather than an alternative curriculum.  So, here are my questions:

 

1.  Am I on the right track?  Do you think my plan is a good one?

2.  Is it better to have her in a mainstream program making Cs, rather than in an alternative program like Math U See making As?

3.  We own MUS Pre-Algebra, but I've heard and read that Teaching Textbooks is a better program for High School Algebra and Geometry.  Should we switch to TT next year alongside a traditional textbook program?

4.  If you are using two programs, how do you grade?  I was thinking we would list BJU as the curriculum and only grade those assignments/tests.  MUS would be a tutor type program and the assignments would not be graded.

A few general comments (I am not familiar with either of the programs you mention, so can not comment specifically on those):

 

Mastery is important. It does not matter what you use to get there. A C in a traditional program does not reflect mastery.

Pre-algebra is not considered a high school level course, so colleges will not care what program you used.

 

Even for high school level math, college care little about the name of your program (if they request that information at all) and more about demonstrated performance on standardized tests. Having used a "mainstream" math program is irrelevant if the student does not show that he knows math on the test; conversely, nobody will care about the name of your alternative math program when the student aced the math section on the SAT. So, I would worry less about how it "looks" to colleges and more about how your student learns best.

 

No matter how many math programs I'd use, the only thing I grade is a comprehensive final at the end of the semester. I want my students to retain the concepts in the long term, so that is what I test. You know what concepts the student has studied and should have mastered; write one test that tests all those skills. If you wish, you can test more frequently - but this is irrespective of the number of programs you use.

I would not grade daily work at all; daily work is for practice, and I would not want to penalize a learner for making mistakes while learning a new skill.

 

[kiana]

Because of the unusual order of Math-U-See, I would complete their pre-algebra program. Many topics are covered in pre-algebra which are covered earlier in other courses (this is NOT necessarily a bad thing, but it would not be a good idea to use a program which expects that she has already had exposure and just needs a reminder).

 

I do not think that C's in a more rigorous program are better than A's in a lighter program. If possible, I would rather go a little more slowly (not sure if distance learning will let you do this) to give a student enough time to really grasp and understand the concepts rather than accepting C's. I'm not sure as to why you'd want to do two complete programs -- TT is a complete program, so is MUS. MUS especially is somewhat lighter than other programs, but the important thing is that your dd UNDERSTAND and REMEMBER what she's doing and even more importantly why she's doing it. This is what's going to set her up for success in the long run, and on the SAT/ACT -- not going through a more rigorous program, not understanding what she's doing, resorting to memorization and dumping which is usually enough to get a C, and having to repeat it all at university.

 

Now, if she *can* handle a more rigorous program and understand it well, I would do it. I would go ahead and give it a shot for Algebra 1. But if it's too much for her -- if she starts floundering -- do not hesitate to switch back to the program she was understanding.

[coffeefreak]

Hmmmm.....  Ok, I see what you guys are saying.  Here are a couple thoughts/questions.

 

1.  It wasn't that we were going to do two complete programs,  I was going to use it as a back up.  If she doesn't understand the lesson for Bob Jones, here's Steve to explain it another way.  I look at it as MUS would be her tutor for what she doesn't quite get at first.  I had math tutors all through high school, not that it did a whole lot of good honestly, but I'm not sure what else to do.  

 

2.  When I look at MUS's Pre-Algebra, it does not feel complete to me.  MUS is so simple and basic and I don't feel like there will be retention.  There isn't enough review for retention.  On her final Unit Test this year (she completed Zeta) she got a low A, but that's on the new information covered in the unit, NOT on the review portion of the test. She did that all year.  On the final exam for Zeta, she received a 75%.  Everything that she had just covered she aced.  Everything else was hit and miss. I'm VERY concerned about this going forward.  I know my Math grades didn't reflect my actual retention in school, but I think the idea that a child has to have an A or a B before moving on is unrealistic.  I think the grade should actually reflect the knowledge and ability.  This is something I've gone round and round on.  Is an A or B in MUS REALLY acceptable knowing that it would be a B or a C for her in a more mainstream curriculum?

 

3.   From what I read here, MUS is not complete for High School, especially Geometry.  My concern is, if we do only MUS for Pre-Algebra, she will not be prepared for Algebra I in High School.  I would LOVE to just use MUS for pre-Algebra this year and consider TT or something else next year, but I'm worried waiting will be a mistake.  Will she really be prepared for a mainstream Algebra I program if we use MUS this year?  I talked to someone else that said because MUS uses different language than what is on the ACTs, her son got very confused and basically had to take them over because of how poorly he scored on the math portion.  Back to my daughter, she was not tested this year because we moved.  Last year, after 6th grade, she tested higher than the year before but still under the 50th percentile.  She had just finished Epsilon (fractions) and scored on the middle to low end.  She had not covered decimals yet and did not score well at all.  I assume she would score better if she tested this year, but I don't know. :confused1:

 

So, the way I see it is if I continue with MUS, she may make good grades, she may understand the basic ideas and concepts of what she's studying, but she won't at all be ready for college level math. I want to try to give her the tools she needs.  I don't see where it's possible with MUS alone.   :confused1:

 

I think my head is going to explode LOL!

Dorinda

[coffeefreak]

I do not think that C's in a more rigorous program are better than A's in a lighter program. If possible, I would rather go a little more slowly (not sure if distance learning will let you do this) to give a student enough time to really grasp and understand the concepts rather than accepting C's.

 

Kiana - I missed this the first time.  With BJU's DLO, the teaching segments are all taped.  You can watch them as many times as you want and there are multiple worksheets/reviews for you to do before moving on if the student is struggling.  My youngest used the DLO program last year for 4th grade and it was actually overkill for her (she's my mathy kid).  That's why we're considering it.  So, theoretically, we could require mastery before moving on with that particular program.

Thanks!

Dorinda

[Mom22ns]

If you finish the MUS sequence with Pre-Algebra she will be ready for any algebra course. Their sequence is very different, but it is complete through pre-algebra. My kids both switched during the high school sequence, one half way through Algebra and one early in Algebra 2. Neither had any trouble picking up on a "more rigorous" program, nor did they have any holes that weren't filled in the standard review.

 

I would warn you, having gone to Lial's, it has far LESS review than MUS did. There are 3 pages of review in every MUS chapter that review all the preceding material. You will not find another program that has that much unless it is Saxon :).

[coffeefreak]

If you finish the MUS sequence with Pre-Algebra she will be ready for any algebra course. Their sequence is very different, but it is complete through pre-algebra. My kids both switched during the high school sequence, one half way through Algebra and one early in Algebra 2. Neither had any trouble picking up on a "more rigorous" program, nor did they have any holes that weren't filled in the standard review.

 

I would warn you, having gone to Lial's, it has far LESS review than MUS did. There are 3 pages of review in every MUS chapter that review all the preceding material. You will not find another program that has that much unless it is Saxon :).

 

That helps a lot!  So, I can use MUS this year and decide next year what to do going forward.  

 

 

OK, so why did you switch with some of your kids?

[Mom22ns]

My oldest needed more practice than MUS Algebra 2 offered. It just became confusing. My youngest needed more challenge. She was moving through Algebra like lightning and hardly stopping to think. Switching forced her to engage her brain (which I must say did not please her).

 

I really like MUS Geometry though and dd is using it this year, then she will return to Lial's or something similar for Algebra 2 next year. We really struggle with me as her teacher for math. I tried to get her to go with Jan in TX last year and failed. I think we'll be ok through geometry, but I'm really not sure where we're going after that. Maybe I should consider BJU DVDs :).

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

A few random thoughts from an insomniac at 12:20 am.

 

1) 2 programs will drive you BATTY. At one point, my oldest son had 5 math programs on the shelf. Poor kid.

 

 

2) Any program you choose you will regret.

 

3) #2 was a joke, but you know that because you know me pretty well ;)

4) You will do great with Teaching Textbooks new versions.

 

5) If you MUST choose 2 programs, get Life of Fred as your 2nd. It is WONDERFUL as a supplement.

 

6) I MUST be batty because we use TT and LOF

 

7) I am sure you could have done better without my reply.

 

 ;)

 

[hsmamainva]

A few random thoughts from an insomniac at 12:20 am.

 

1) 2 programs will drive you BATTY. At one point, my oldest son had 5 math programs on the shelf. Poor kid.

 

 

2) Any program you choose you will regret.

 

3) #2 was a joke, but you know that because you know me pretty well ;)

 

4) You will do great with Teaching Textbooks new versions.

 

5) If you MUST choose 2 programs, get Life of Fred as your 2nd. It is WONDERFUL as a supplement.

 

6) I MUST be batty because we use TT and LOF

 

7) I am sure you could have done better without my reply.

 

 

  ;)

 

I'll be batty right there with you!!

 

My 13yo uses LOF as a supplement to the new version of TT Algebra --- and we owned the original!  The new version is sooo much better!

 

My oldest (now 22) had used the original TT Algebra I and she, being a girl, wasn't as allergic to pencils and paper as my 13yo boy is.  ;)

 

Seriously -- he does fine with scratch paper but having it filled in neat and tidy with the properly lined up problems?? No way.  Loves the new version where he answers it all on the pc.

[PeterPan]

I've been perusing old threads and new threads regarding my oldest's nemesis, MATH. :scared:

 

 We're ready for Pre-Algebra (seriously never thought we'd make it), and I'm thinking about combining Math U See with Bob Jones' Distance Online Learning classes for this year.  My thoughts are, she does really well with Math U See, but I know it's not going to be enough for High School.  After reading several threads where people have talked about their experiences, I feel like it's a good tutor type program, but not a good stand alone program.  I also feel like the time is coming where colleges are going to be very familiar with different homeschooling curriculum, and it would be better to have her in a mainstream type textbook curriculum, rather than an alternative curriculum.  So, here are my questions:

 

1.  Am I on the right track?  Do you think my plan is a good one?

2.  Is it better to have her in a mainstream program making Cs, rather than in an alternative program like Math U See making As?

3.  We own MUS Pre-Algebra, but I've heard and read that Teaching Textbooks is a better program for High School Algebra and Geometry.  Should we switch to TT next year alongside a traditional textbook program?

4.  If you are using two programs, how do you grade?  I was thinking we would list BJU as the curriculum and only grade those assignments/tests.  MUS would be a tutor type program and the assignments would not be graded.

 

I think that's it for now. Thanks for your help!

Dorinda

Dorinda, I just checked, and it looks like they finally FINALLY have the new videos to go with the new edition of the pre-algebra text.  You'd have Mr. Harmon teaching, and he's quite good.  He's slower than some teachers at explaining things, so it makes it easier for some students to connect.  He's also been known to hang from the rafters in his classes.  :D  

 

That said, I'd be reluctant to change if completing MUS' sequence gets you through the standard material and it has been working really well for her.  No, I wouldn't say it's better to be a C student with BJU than an A student with MUS.  A *C* student with BJU might not actually UNDERSTAND as much as an A or B student with MUS, TT, or some of the others that get slammed.  There's basically been nothing in the BJU that wasn't covered in TT, nothing of serious importance.  The main difference is that BJU steps up the word problems and complexity of the problems dramatically.  But you know, I go back to the idea of doing something they understand.  It's NOT necessarily better that they be swamped with a hard program.  If it were, you'd just put them in school and tell them to be C students, kwim?  

 

It's almost as if you're asking if it's valid to have an A on her transcript beside TT algebra 1 when it would have been a C or D beside BJU Algebra.  The test scores are going to make obvious to the college what was going on.  I don't think there's an ethical consideration there.

 

When you have a dc who's been struggling, I'd do what you can get to connect.  Watch the samples of Mr. Harmon and look at the book.  Can you see her doing it?  Like what is just your gut reaction to it fitting her?  For us, if you look at my sig, we've been having really good success with TT for our backbone and a dash of BJU done as we can, 10-15 min. a day.  In that time I can hit the harder problems from BJU.  I don't attempt to coordinate them at all.

 

I can't guarantee you that doing the BJU video lessons will work out well for your girl.  You'll notice I'm not using it. I don't even attempt to teach the BJU lessons as our main program.  I say defer on explanations to something you know will work for her.  If she still finds the MUS manipulatives and approach distinctives helpful, that's probably where I'd be staying.  You might find yourself a year from now half way through BJU rather than all the way through MUS.  Some people find their struggling student does better with the *old* edition BJU than the new.  They've updated things and bumped the rigor DRAMATICALLY.  I'd rather see a student get through something with understanding than be swamped.  It's up to you whether that something is BJU, spread over as much time as necessary, or just a simpler program.  I have different friends who've chosen different routes in that scenario, so it's more just a choice you make about your philosophy and what's important to you.  I don't think you're going to be *happy* plowing through 4 years of BJU at C level.  What's probably going to happen is you're going to slow it down dramatically, do the harder problems, but have to give it time.  Some people decide the harder problems are not important to them and getting the 4 years done is.  I have no opinion on that.

 

I suggest you look at the samples.  BJU has whole chapters, and CBD has quite a bit.  Find a rep near you or hit a hotel meeting or something.  Find someone who has the text so you can sit down and look and see how that will really work for your student.  I think, and this is just my two cents, there's a sort of maturity necessary for it that goes beyond merely doing the math. (long involved problems that throw lots of things together, etc.)  That's why I say look at it and go with your gut.  And in your situation, if you want into BJU, I would go in at the Pre-Algebra.  They've bumped the new editions so much, I don't think a weak student should go in at their algebra 1, just my two cents.  It doesn't start all the way at the beginning and build up the way the old algebra 1 books do (Foerster, etc.).  Right out of the bat, lesson 1.2, BJU algebra 1 has them using brackets, order of operations, absolute value, etc.  Not that kids can't do those things coming out of any typical pre-algebra, but usually an algebra 1 program ramps up much more slowly.  This is assuming a lot and builds quickly.

 

Just as a total aside, we're doing the BJU geometry now, just started last week.  She's enjoying it, but it's, um, well it's got a lot of set theory.  It's nothing like the geometry I did in high school.  It's fine, but I could see a lot of kids not enjoying it.  That would be a really good one to jump at and do TT.  And about the time you do the new, super awesome TT 2.0 version of one year of math, you're going to wonder why you weren't doing it for the others.  :D

[coffeefreak]

Thanks OhElizabeth and everyone else for the help.  I sold our MUS (had to to buy something new) and I THINK we're going to switch to BJU.  I emphasize think because I'm going to give myself another week to think about it. :001_unsure:   Our goal has always been to prepare our kids for college whether they choose to go or not.  I know we've discussed this time, and time, and time again, but I have a hard time seeing where MUS will do that.  But, I've also never made it a secret that I don't understand MUS and over the last two years it was DH that took over with her for math.  HE says it's time to move her into a more mainstream math program and that's why I'm doing it.  I've been trying to move her for years and this is the first time DH actually agrees and says she can handle it.  So, here we go!  I know TT gets a lot of good reviews, but I sense that BJU will better prepare her for college.

 

 I find it interesting that everyone would rather have an A on a transcript from a remedial program than a C from a mainstream, rigorous program.  While it brings her GPA down, it actually better reflects her capabilities.  Not only that but it more accurately lines up with her standardized test scores.  If a child leaves school with an A and then thinks they can handle college math, but fails the class or has to re-take Algebra at the community college, doesn't that further prove to the colleges that homeschool transcripts are inaccurate?  That's one of the arguments for the Common Core from the colleges.  They're tired of students whose GPA does not match their capabilities.  

 

Just a thought from a mom who isn't there yet but is pondering these things. 

 

Thanks so much for helping me think this through!  Math is the one subject I loathe in this house. :ack2:

Blessings!

Dorinda

[Mom22ns]

 I find it interesting that everyone would rather have an A on a transcript from a remedial program than a C from a mainstream, rigorous program.  While it brings her GPA down, it actually better reflects her capabilities.  Not only that but it more accurately lines up with her standardized test scores.  If a child leaves school with an A and then thinks they can handle college math, but fails the class or has to re-take Algebra at the community college, doesn't that further prove to the colleges that homeschool transcripts are inaccurate?  That's one of the arguments for the Common Core from the colleges.  They're tired of students whose GPA does not match their capabilities.  

 

 

The thing is, I have not yet met the person whose child finished MUS or TT (also low level) and not placed in the next level and done well at that level in college. They all seem to thrive. The reason for this is just what others have suggested to you. Covering less information, but understanding it well will always be better than covering more and  not understanding all of it or understanding it all partially. 

 

BJU is an excellent program and will prepare your kids very well.

 

Best wishes.

[coffeefreak]

Ah, I see. I have met two IRL. One was prepared for college math but had to retake his ACTs because he didn't understand what they were asking him to do. The mom said she thought Steve corrected the problem in the 2009 edition, but I don't know. When I compare the terminology I MUS to the terminology in BJU, BJU is familiar to me, MUS is not. And maybe that's the thing. Since I am not comfortable with MUS, I'm going to gravitate toward the familiar.  I know that's my problem, but all I have to go on is my own experience in college and the advice of math teachers, some of whom are current homeschoolers.  One friend of mine realized in Geometry that her daughter was  not getting enough geometry to prepare her for the PSATs and ACTs.  She switched her to TT and then enrolled her in the community college for math the following year.  That's when she realized she didn't have enough Algebra from MUS either.  I asked her to weigh in on this and she said she would definitely switch next year (Algebra I) if not this year.  Her daughter had a lot of catch up to do  to prepare for a 4 year institution.  That has weighed heavily on my decision.

 

Blessings!
Dorinda

[Mom22ns]

Just for comparison, my ds's worst subject is math. He was weakest in math in public school and MUS fixed that. When he took the PLAN (10th grade pre-ACT) with no prep part way through MUS Geometry, he aced the geometry section and only missed a few algebra questions. We did switch and I do think it is a good move to switch. You can search for MUS on this board though and I think I've only ever found one person whose child didn't do well in college after MUS and there are many families even here on the WTM where MUS isn't popular that will tell you their kids did great with it. TT has similar results and has had a similar scope and sequence for their high school courses to MUS, although I understand their new editions have upped their content level.

[coffeefreak]

Dorinda, I just checked, and it looks like they finally FINALLY have the new videos to go with the new edition of the pre-algebra text.  You'd have Mr. Harmon teaching, and he's quite good.  He's slower than some teachers at explaining things, so it makes it easier for some students to connect.  He's also been known to hang from the rafters in his classes.   :D

 

 

 

 

Just as a total aside, we're doing the BJU geometry now, just started last week.  She's enjoying it, but it's, um, well it's got a lot of set theory.  It's nothing like the geometry I did in high school.  It's fine, but I could see a lot of kids not enjoying it.  That would be a really good one to jump at and do TT.  And about the time you do the new, super awesome TT 2.0 version of one year of math, you're going to wonder why you weren't doing it for the others.   :D

 

LOL!  And this is why I say I'm going to give myself a week to think.  I'm trying not to let cost factor in but I HAVE to have the videos teach, and I'm hearing great things about TT 2.0 *ahem Amber* ;)  And, since my friend I mentioned above uses it and had success with it, I'm seriously considering it.

Blessings!

[coffeefreak]

Just for comparison, my ds's worst subject is math. He was weakest in math in public school and MUS fixed that. When he took the PLAN (10th grade pre-ACT) with no prep part way through MUS Geometry, he aced the geometry section and only missed a few algebra questions. We did switch and I do think it is a good move to switch. You can search for MUS on this board though and I think I've only ever found one person whose child didn't do well in college after MUS and there are many families even here on the WTM where MUS isn't popular that will tell you their kids did great with it. TT has similar results and has had a similar scope and sequence for their high school courses to MUS, although I understand their new editions have upped their content level.

 

 

I do appreciate your input Debbie.  It gives me another perspective.  One of the things DH and I discussed was, we can always go back to MUS, but it would be hard to switch out of it later KWIM?  She would be missing things.  I think 8th grade is a good year to try mainstream math without scaring her too much ;) .  She's game so we might as well.  I think she also would like to do better on her standardized tests, and she is excited that she's finally "Caught up" with her peers.  Many of her friends are in BJU or TT this year and I think that's why she's interested in trying something new.  It's like we have finally tapped into the part of her that believes she can succeed.  We've always felt some of her math issues were self esteem.  Everything else has come easily, TOO easily to her, and we were so hard on her in the beginning because we felt she was just giving up without trying.  She does have some learning issues (glitches as Dianne Craft calls them), but once we got past those, it was hard to convince her that we needed to leave the mistakes of the past behind and look forward.  The poor oldest child is always the guinea pig.

 

I tell you what, if I only had that 3rd child.....

 

LOL!

[coffeefreak]

Ok, so in the last 2 hours, I looked at a thread that mentioned AoPS, wanted to know what it stood for, found a thread on Pre-Algebra Fence Straddlers  (there's one for Algebra too), discovered a curriculum called TabletClass, discovered they're having a sale ($50 for the entire year), watched the demos, stalked people using it to find out what they think, and bought it.   :w00t:  :scared:  :svengo:

 

I decided to give it a try.  It's getting good reviews, BJU DLO is $350+ per year, TT is $180ish, and, I figure the worst that can happen is she struggles with it and we have to pick up BJU and we're out $50.  dereksurfs said his son transitioned to it from MUS and that further encouraged me.

 

So, there you have it!  I'll let you know how it goes. 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[PeterPan]

Dorinda, if you're reading, well I don't find myself liking most of the alternative things that get tossed around.  LoF wasn't adequate in our house.  Khan Academy was, well it wasn't adequate either.  I haven't looked at the others you mentioned, but I'd run it by your dh first.  (see me scrunching my face)

 

I had a long chat with a friend today who has made the decision to continue with her struggling dd in the BJU math.  They're plowing forward, so she's the proverbial C student in the BJU math.  Her conclusion is that, like you're saying, she'd rather have her be a C student with a harder program.  That's not a choice I had to make, because my student is an A student by doing BOTH programs.  That's the mix that works for us and what I require.  

 

That's all just to say somebody has felt the same was as you, if it makes you feel any better.  And as I talked with my friend, it kind of begged the question of why *I* didn't make that choice.  But you know we all make choices about what we value, what we emphasize.  To my friend the struggle is good, and she likes the spiritual challenge for the child to hit her fears and frustrations head-on.  In our house, well I know my kid and that's not what we're emphasizing.  The Bible has this verse about provoking not your children to wrath, and I choose not to do that.   ;)   That was partly a joke, but really not.  We're good friends, and she has chosen one way while I've gone another.  I think her choice is amazing, but that doesn't mean it's the right choice for my kid.  In our house we've chosen to emphasis discipline and diligence, having things that can get done.  I test, I know how my kid does, I know how she tests, and I do the harder problems from the BJU to know my kid is on track.  I did calc and organic chemistry and all kinds of things in college.  I have NO concerns about whether my girl is on-track.  The IRONY is that this dc who does the "suck up and do the harder material cuz it's better for you" approach scores radically lower on standardized testing than mine.  So if I use easier materials and get it to STICK, was that less than her using harder materials that don't stick?  I don't know, something doesn't compute there.

 

I'm a TEACHER.  I teach.  It's not the curriculum.  I can compare results by looking at what it does to my kid, not just at the % score the curriculum gives me.  If she does TT at 100% and can't do BJU's C and Dominion Math problems, she's not an A student in my book, but that was just my standard.

 

Anyways, if your gut, heart, or values are speaking to you a certain direction, go ahead and do it.  You're not invalid in your concerns, and indeed there ARE, most certainly are horror stories for TT, MUS, etc.  There are also really good stories.  My friend tells me the horror stories, and I remind her of the good ones.  We say the good ones, and someone pipes up with the horror stories. I think sometimes the differences reflect inherent abilities or thought processes of the student.  Nobody wants to admit that some students are the half that makes the top half possible.  Standardized testing is an impartial judge of that, and those kids might have had the same test scores doing another (harder) curriculum.  There's sort of this false assumption that if they had used something else their scores would have been dramatically different.  I don't think this is always the case. My dd had the same conceptual scores with ALL the math curricula we've used.  That doesn't mean EVERY student will score well with TT, mercy.

 

I think if your gut thinks that's a likely outcome for your student (that it wouldn't fare well to do TT or MUS), you shouldn't go that way.  And doing TT *plus* BJU the way I do is not for the faint of heart or light of pocketbook.  I buy a lot of new editions, because they're coming out right as we bump up.  That's $$$ on top of new 2.0 TT.   :svengo:   I do it because, well because it works for us.  I also don't tell my dh what I spend a year on math.   ;)  If you want to do BJU straight and your dh's gut sees that as a better route, by all means do it.  It's amazing stuff, love the new texts, and you'll have no doubt you covered what you needed.  Dig in for the long-haul and plan to spend some time.  

[coffeefreak]

Dorinda, if you're reading, well I don't find myself liking most of the alternative things that get tossed around.  LoF wasn't adequate in our house.  Khan Academy was, well it wasn't adequate either.  I haven't looked at the others you mentioned, but I'd run it by your dh first.  (see me scrunching my face)

 

I had a long chat with a friend today who has made the decision to continue with her struggling dd in the BJU math.  They're plowing forward, so she's the proverbial C student in the BJU math.  Her conclusion is that, like you're saying, she'd rather have her be a C student with a harder program.  That's not a choice I had to make, because my student is an A student by doing BOTH programs.  That's the mix that works for us and what I require.  

 

That's all just to say somebody has felt the same was as you, if it makes you feel any better.  And as I talked with my friend, it kind of begged the question of why *I* didn't make that choice.  But you know we all make choices about what we value, what we emphasize.  To my friend the struggle is good, and she likes the spiritual challenge for the child to hit her fears and frustrations head-on.  In our house, well I know my kid and that's not what we're emphasizing.  The Bible has this verse about provoking not your children to wrath, and I choose not to do that.   ;)   That was partly a joke, but really not.  We're good friends, and she has chosen one way while I've gone another.  I think her choice is amazing, but that doesn't mean it's the right choice for my kid.  In our house we've chosen to emphasis discipline and diligence, having things that can get done.  I test, I know how my kid does, I know how she tests, and I do the harder problems from the BJU to know my kid is on track.  I did calc and organic chemistry and all kinds of things in college.  I have NO concerns about whether my girl is on-track.  The IRONY is that this dc who does the "suck up and do the harder material cuz it's better for you" approach scores radically lower on standardized testing than mine.  So if I use easier materials and get it to STICK, was that less than her using harder materials that don't stick?  I don't know, something doesn't compute there.

 

I'm a TEACHER.  I teach.  It's not the curriculum.  I can compare results by looking at what it does to my kid, not just at the % score the curriculum gives me.  If she does TT at 100% and can't do BJU's C and Dominion Math problems, she's not an A student in my book, but that was just my standard.

 

Anyways, if your gut, heart, or values are speaking to you a certain direction, go ahead and do it.  You're not invalid in your concerns, and indeed there ARE, most certainly are horror stories for TT, MUS, etc.  There are also really good stories.  My friend tells me the horror stories, and I remind her of the good ones.  We say the good ones, and someone pipes up with the horror stories. I think sometimes the differences reflect inherent abilities or thought processes of the student.  Nobody wants to admit that some students are the half that makes the top half possible.  Standardized testing is an impartial judge of that, and those kids might have had the same test scores doing another (harder) curriculum.  There's sort of this false assumption that if they had used something else their scores would have been dramatically different.  I don't think this is always the case. My dd had the same conceptual scores with ALL the math curricula we've used.  That doesn't mean EVERY student will score well with TT, mercy.

 

I think if your gut thinks that's a likely outcome for your student (that it wouldn't fare well to do TT or MUS), you shouldn't go that way.  And doing TT *plus* BJU the way I do is not for the faint of heart or light of pocketbook.  I buy a lot of new editions, because they're coming out right as we bump up.  That's $$$ on top of new 2.0 TT.   :svengo:   I do it because, well because it works for us.  I also don't tell my dh what I spend a year on math.   ;)  If you want to do BJU straight and your dh's gut sees that as a better route, by all means do it.  It's amazing stuff, love the new texts, and you'll have no doubt you covered what you needed.  Dig in for the long-haul and plan to spend some time.  

This is one of those posts that we need to sticky somewhere for all the moms who suffer with that ONE subject their child just doesn't seem to get.  Thanks for those wise, encouraging words OhElizabeth.  I absolutely agree with you, and it's nice to know someone out there (your friend) is living my life LOL!  We absolutely have to remember we're the teachers and curriculum is not the magic pill to all our woes.  I KNOW that in every other subject besides math.  I have looked at Rod and Staff and said, "WHAT?!?!  Forget what they said, here's what you need to know," and I have abandoned writing curriculum altogether in favor of teaching it to my daughter in a way that makes sense to her and helps her with her weaknesses.  So going forward, I am determined to remember that with math.

 

 I am so glad you brought up what I highlighted above. Some kids will never fully understand certain concepts, no matter what you used, and some students just don't test well on standardized tests.  I looked at her scores again and she simply didn't attempt over half the problems last year.  The ones she did she got right.  Since she scores off the charts on all other subjects, math is her white whale and I think she freezes when she comes to that part of the test.  That's something we need to work on, and I already see her confidence rising since she feels like she's caught up with her peers.  Tabletclass was totally worth the money, even if we decide to add BJU in half way through the year.  If nothing else, it's giving her a gap program since I was supposed to start school the 9th and there is no way we'll be able to get another program here before then.  I hear you on math prices!  I think there's some price gouging going on in the curriculum world.  It's the most expensive subject for us, even more than science.   :glare:

 

Seriously, a great post.  

Thanks!

Dorinda