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The Complete Writer: Writing with Ease (WWE) -- All separate threads merged here


Colleen in NS
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Now I am wondering whether I should get WWE, as well. As I see it, these are my options:

 

A. Continue OPG to the end. Start FLL 1/2 once he's finished OPG L140, as advised at the Peace Hill website. Do all the optional activities in FLL (narrations, copywork). And add extra narrations and copywork from history, science, and lit.

 

B. As above but skip all optional narrations and copywork in FLL 1/2, and instead use WWE. Use the main WWE text only, adding narration and copywork from the content subjects.

 

C. As in Option B, but use a WWE workbook, and do not do any narration or copywork from the content subjects.

 

Q2) In Option C, do I really not need to do any narration from history, science, and lit? Is it wise to omit these? Or should I use the workbook, which is very appealing, and still do narrations, at least, from content areas at another time of day? Is Option A just as good?

 

I still wonder about this same question (Q2 above), and I've been doing this all year. I've asked before, and I know I've gotten an answer somewhere on these boards... but for the life of me I can't keep it straight. After listening to Susan's Writing w/o Fear CD, I think the writing program is just that: focused on the mechanics of writing. Writing for History, Science, Lit., etc. is separate, but should include concepts learned in the grammar and writing programs.

 

Oh Susan, if you have a moment, could you clarify this for us? :D

Thanks a million!

 

P.S. Update from my last post in this thread: Ds 8 dug back into WWE 2 today and it went suprisingly well! He was able to pick out the main idea - albeit in one long run-on sentence (which we corrected together). I'm seeing him stretch and grow in his abilities with WWE. Thank you for this program, Susan!

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I am doing FLL4 in the fall, but will be done at Christmas. My girls are 10 and 11 so they can go through it pretty quickly. I wanted to use WT 1 and 2 with them after that along with the diagraming and outlining recomendations for the logic stage. After using WT1 with my oldest this year I saw the "holes" in our language arts so I got FLL 3 and 4 and now going through WWE 1-4 as review. all that being said, where do you think I should start them in R&S after I finish WT2?

 

bump

 

I still wonder about this same question (Q2 above), and I've been doing this all year. I've asked before, and I know I've gotten an answer somewhere on these boards... but for the life of me I can't keep it straight. After listening to Susan's Writing w/o Fear CD, I think the writing program is just that: focused on the mechanics of writing. Writing for History, Science, Lit., etc. is separate, but should include concepts learned in the grammar and writing programs.

 

Here is my understanding, from her recent writing workshops. If kids are regularly practicing copywork/dictation, narration, outlining, rewriting from outlines (the latter two being after the first two are mastered), and they are practicing these skills on their history/science/lit. reading, then there is no need to have another time in the day for a history narration or whatever.

 

So let's say in 5th grade you decide to have your child do two outlines per week and two narrations per week. You do one of these activities each day for four days, and just vary the content you practice them on. That way, they practice the skills, learn some of the content a little more deeply, put to practice the grammar they are learning, and get really comfortable with it all for when they do more complex outlines and start rewriting from them.

 

Now - this is MY understanding :D, and it's what I'm comfortable doing right now (all subject to change if I see a reason for it, of course). I *could* add in more narrations each week on top of the ones we do already, but for us, it would only be to just add another narration of info. to the notebook, not to practice writing skills - it would just be too much for my son, especially.

 

hth

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bump

 

 

 

Here is my understanding, from her recent writing workshops. If kids are regularly practicing copywork/dictation, narration, outlining, rewriting from outlines (the latter two being after the first two are mastered), and they are practicing these skills on their history/science/lit. reading, then there is no need to have another time in the day for a history narration or whatever.

 

So let's say in 5th grade you decide to have your child do two outlines per week and two narrations per week. You do one of these activities each day for four days, and just vary the content you practice them on. That way, they practice the skills, learn some of the content a little more deeply, put to practice the grammar they are learning, and get really comfortable with it all for when they do more complex outlines and start rewriting from them.

 

Now - this is MY understanding :D, and it's what I'm comfortable doing right now (all subject to change if I see a reason for it, of course). I *could* add in more narrations each week on top of the ones we do already, but for us, it would only be to just add another narration of info. to the notebook, not to practice writing skills - it would just be too much for my son, especially.

 

hth

 

Well that makes sense to me. So much so, that I've been tempted to just toss the idea of using a WWE workbook for level 3 when we get there, and just use passages from our content subjects. It's the WWE workbook that throws me into this confusion. It's convenient and all done for me, which I love, love, love. But, it does add an extra subject to our schoolday by having a separate subject for writing.

 

I'm working with grammar stage kiddos, so there's not any outlining being done yet. WWE (the workbook) covers the copywork, narration, narration/dictation, and dictation in that order over 4 days - but on literature passages that we aren't using anywhere else in our studies.

 

I just realized that I should restate my question: If one is using the WWE *workbooks*, then are they supposed to practice all those skills again in content subjects as well? That would double the amount of work required of the child. Or is the child supposed to be first doing those within a separate writing program and then also using them on content subjects?

 

If I were just using the WWE textbook, it wouldn't be an issue for me. I would just use passages from the kids' sci., hist., and lit. It just looks like a ton of work trying to find specific literary and grammatical elements as WWE suggests, esp. when I limit the text options to the kids' content subjects.

Edited by Annabel Lee
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If you're using the workbook, you would absolutely cut down on the number of narrations you're doing in history/science/lit. You wouldn't want to eliminate them, because they have value for those subjects, but you wouldn't want to double the child's workload.

 

Not to work myself out of a sale but I think it's ideal to use the WWE textbook and do what it says WITH your history/lit/science. Writing should be something, in the best case scenario, that's taught along with the other subjects in the curriculum. But it does take both time and ease with the process, which is why we publish the workbooks.

 

If it helps, I'm using the workbooks with DD8 and doing less in history/lit/science. Yes, it would be ideal to only use passages from history/lit/science. But I did all the research and prep already in the workkbook and don't really want to do it all again. Plus, this way my husband can help out with the writing instruction too. :001_smile:

 

SWB

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I see the dictation passages start getting pretty long in WWE3 and then extremely long (paragraph length) in WWE4. What is the expectation here? Am I correct in understanding that my 4th grader should be able to listen to me read an entire paragraph 3 times and then write it word for word? How much deviation from the passage is acceptable? I can't imagine my child doing this. As a matter of fact, I am going to ask my husband to dictate some of the longer passages to me and see if I can do it.:)

 

I've got a child that struggles and I don't want to needlessly frustrate him if I am misunderstanding the dictation process. I have been doing dictation with him, but he usually switches a word or two around even with short sentences.

 

Thank you!

Lisa

 

ETA: For dictations this long, is the child supposed to start writing while you are reading the passage or do they wait until you are completely done reading the entire passage 3 times and then make an attempt?

Edited by LisaTheresa
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Bless you, Susan, for being up so early checking the boards - on a Sunday no less!

 

What a relief to know that I can just continue in what I'm doing. The prospect of "reinventing the wheel" doesn't look very appealing to me. ;)

 

Would you mind sharing how much you have your 8 yr old do in history/lit/science in addition to the WWE workbook?

 

Just a sidenote: My DH thinks it is so cool that another homeschooling mom/university prof. wrote the curriculum that I'm using for our DC, and that I can come here and get answers from the author. Thanks for providing this forum and for all the work you put into the entire scope of the WTM (to include WWE, TWEM, etc).

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Not to work myself out of a sale but I think it's ideal to use the WWE textbook and do what it says WITH your history/lit/science. Writing should be something, in the best case scenario, that's taught along with the other subjects in the curriculum.

SWB

 

I know it wasn't directed at me , but that helps me a lot.

 

I have WWE and want to work through it with ds who will be in grade 5/6 next year. I was thinking to use just your weekly lesson and do that at his pace until we're done with the book and he's feeling more confident about the writing.

 

Of course, by the time we're through WWE, you'll have the logic stage book out, right? :D

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I have really appreciated this thread. I have read through most of it in the last couple days.

Both of mine are very hesitant writers. Neither of them like writing and I don't think I have pushed enough in this area. The main thing is I haven't really known how to go about it. I have read about copywork/dictation/naration for some time but haven't been able to figure out just how to implement it all.

I have just gotten the WWE HB and WWE I. I am so grateful for something that is precise and that I feel I can implement when we start up this fall.

Here is what I am thinking of doing. I want to start my dd, 9 will be 10 in Nov., in WWE 1. Looking at it I am thinking of doing 2 days worth of work in one day thus covering 2 wks in one. I think she will be able to handle this if I don't do to much other writing with her.

I have another program that is copy work that we will be using for penmanship and we use R&S for English but do it orally at this point. The only other writing she would be doing is the work book and phonics for her R&S reading.

Does this sound like a workable plan? to much? to little?

She is a very good reader and has good comprehension but has a difficulty narrating back to me and to put it down on paper is way out there for her. It is tears day after day. I can't stand that as I don't feel she should be so stressed/unhappy with something like this. She is a very compliant girl. She will do anything that I ask but this is something that REALLY seems to stress her out. I feel that being able to put the wkbk down in front of her and help her work through it will be a major help.

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If you're using the workbook, you would absolutely cut down on the number of narrations you're doing in history/science/lit. You wouldn't want to eliminate them, because they have value for those subjects, but you wouldn't want to double the child's workload.

 

Not to work myself out of a sale but I think it's ideal to use the WWE textbook and do what it says WITH your history/lit/science. Writing should be something, in the best case scenario, that's taught along with the other subjects in the curriculum. But it does take both time and ease with the process, which is why we publish the workbooks.

 

If it helps, I'm using the workbooks with DD8 and doing less in history/lit/science. Yes, it would be ideal to only use passages from history/lit/science. But I did all the research and prep already in the workkbook and don't really want to do it all again. Plus, this way my husband can help out with the writing instruction too. :001_smile:

 

SWB

 

Thank you for your honesty, Susan! This eliminates my confusion. I am looking forward to starting WWE soon.

 

I also liked what someone said about doing two days of work in one day, as my oldest will be in 4th grade next year and will need some catch-up in this area. (Sorry, I don't know how to quote two posts.) Assuming my son doesn't have a problem with the work, is there any reason I shouldn't double up on assignments? Or even an entire week's work in one day? Has anyone done this? Or can anyone tell me how they've accelerated the WWE program in another way, such as skipping from Week 1 to Week 4 without the extra first-level practice of Weeks 2-3?

 

I am hesitant to move so quickly through this program, but I also want my son to be ready for outlining and such before 4 years from now. (I have yet to give him an evaluation, so it may not be as bad as that.) I am sure I have read about this concern before, but I would be interested in knowing specifics on how WWE users have accelerated the program.

 

Thanks for any ideas!

 

Teonei

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I would be interested in knowing specifics on how WWE users have accelerated the program.

 

I had been doing copywork/dictation and narration with my son since he was in grade 1. Trying my best to follow the instructions in WTM on how to do so. Things went pretty well, except looking back, I see that I was trying to get him to do too much, too early. So he came to the end of fourth grade last year, able to write down a 2 or 3 sentence narration, but not able to take a very long dictation without a LOT of stopping and starting. Oh, and coming up with those narrations was painful, too. I think all of it was because I was missing several steps that are now, thankfully, demonstrated in WWE.

 

So I bought WWE last summer or so to use with my dd8, and looked through each section of each level to figure out what skills were being taught, why, and how. Then I figured out what skills my son needed and helped him with those. So, I didn't start neatly at the beginning of a level, but if I thought he needed practice on something, I might go back to the previous section in a level and see what he could do there, then move forward once I gained his confidence. Then I had him do a week here and there from each section, and for awhile I did have him doing two or three days worth of work in one day. But like I said, I didn't follow anything really neatly - I just figured out that he needed me to ask him comprehension questions first before narrating, and once he understood that, narration got a whole lot easier so he zoomed forward in that. So then I concentrated on dictation. I backed up and started over again with shorter dictations, and used the instructions in each section to guide me in conducting dictations. I guess you could say that now he is up to level 4 dictations and we will just keep practicing these for awhile until he gets really comfortable.

 

All that to say, what I did was very messy. But yes you can certainly double or triple or quadruple on lessons if you want to move forward neatly - just go at your child's pace and stop for the day when it's getting to be too much. :)

 

Also, if you search for posts about starting WWE later, you will find others who have accelerated it and how they did it, in case no one else replies here. I just keep replying because it pops up on my saved threads every so often (and because I love the book so much - it has been a lifesaver here). :)

Edited by Colleen in NS
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I see the dictation passages start getting pretty long in WWE3 and then extremely long (paragraph length) in WWE4. What is the expectation here? Am I correct in understanding that my 4th grader should be able to listen to me read an entire paragraph 3 times and then write it word for word? How much deviation from the passage is acceptable? I can't imagine my child doing this. As a matter of fact, I am going to ask my husband to dictate some of the longer passages to me and see if I can do it.:)

 

I've got a child that struggles and I don't want to needlessly frustrate him if I am misunderstanding the dictation process. I have been doing dictation with him, but he usually switches a word or two around even with short sentences.

 

Thank you!

Lisa

 

ETA: For dictations this long, is the child supposed to start writing while you are reading the passage or do they wait until you are completely done reading the entire passage 3 times and then make an attempt?

 

:lurk5:

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I just ordered the instructor's guide. Has anyone used JUST the guide, and come up with copywork/dictations and the other assignments from your other subjects? I use TOG, and would love my lang. arts to use what we read there.

Thoughts, anyone?

 

Thanks in advance,

tonya

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:lurk5:

 

Hi, LisaTheresa started a separate thread with this question and it got answers.:001_smile:

 

I just ordered the instructor's guide. Has anyone used JUST the guide, and come up with copywork/dictations and the other assignments from your other subjects? I use TOG, and would love my lang. arts to use what we read there.

Thoughts, anyone?

 

Thanks in advance,

tonya

 

Yes, I do, and I've seen here that others do, too. I find it pretty easy to do - we just take our material from our history/science/literature reading.

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Also, if you search for posts about starting WWE later, you will find others who have accelerated it and how they did it, in case no one else replies here. I just keep replying because it pops up on my saved threads every so often (and because I love the book so much - it has been a lifesaver here). :)

 

Thank you, Colleen. I am glad to know I can move more quickly through the program. I gave my son the third-grade mastery evaluation a couple of days ago and was surprised by how well he did. No problem with the narration and even better than he thought he could do with the dictation. When he starts fourth grade in a couple of months, I'm going to start him somewhere in Level 3, but I think he'll move through that pretty quickly.

 

I am so glad I have this book to start from the beginning with my soon-to-be first-grader, though! :001_smile:

 

Teonei

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  • 3 months later...

I have a new question. Well, one I haven't asked yet; perhaps someone else already has. I'm using WWE 2 with my 8yo son who isn't completely writing-phobic. I just read over the grammar stage writing section of WTM 3rd rev. last night & saw that WWE is best for kids who get stuck or are "pencil phobic". While I don't think I could give him a minimal starter (ex. "Write a page about your best friend") without great frustration, he does write on his own as part of playing. Both he and my 6yo ds write pretend menus, ballots, campaign posters, etc. in playing with their stuffed animals.

I chose WWE w/o connecting the dots between all of this info. - the target audience for WWE & my son's writing habits. Have I chosen the wrong program for this child? Am I at all holding him back by not putting him in Writing Strands, IEW, etc.? Or will the outcome be basically the same by logic stage if I continue w/ WWE all the way through?

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he does write on his own as part of playing. Both he and my 6yo ds write pretend menus, ballots, campaign posters, etc. in playing with their stuffed animals.

 

What you describe that he does is creative writing. WWE teaches skills for expository writing, setting the stage for future (high school) persuasive writing. I think expository/persuasive writing is necessary for everyone, and I think creative writing is something that some people like to do. I'd continue with WWE, and if you think his creative writing should be nurtured, then find something else to nurture that in addition to WWE (but I would favour the necessary over the creative, if time and interest are constraints).

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Colleen, I agree that expository/persuasive writing takes priority over creative. I'm just second-guessing if I should have started off with WWE from the get-go. I guess my question is more about what WWE's intent is: was it meant for kids who are clearly writing-phobic? I never gave my kids a chance to show me whether they are or not before deciding on WWE. I like it, esp. since it's easy to do. But that's my preference for me, the teacher. Does it sound like I've misunderstood what SWB was getting at in the grammar stage writing section of WTM about this? I'm trying to understand how I should have gone about choosing a writing program in the first place. Thanks for the reassurance, Colleen!

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Colleen, I agree that expository/persuasive writing takes priority over creative. I'm just second-guessing if I should have started off with WWE from the get-go. I guess my question is more about what WWE's intent is: was it meant for kids who are clearly writing-phobic? I never gave my kids a chance to show me whether they are or not before deciding on WWE. I like it, esp. since it's easy to do. But that's my preference for me, the teacher. Does it sound like I've misunderstood what SWB was getting at in the grammar stage writing section of WTM about this? I'm trying to understand how I should have gone about choosing a writing program in the first place. Thanks for the reassurance, Colleen!
I think that you just might want to work through WWE quickly.

Looking forward to seeing other thoughts.

My DD is writing much better now and all it took was maturity and a teacher to make her work. We have barely dented WWE (I think we are on week 7, still only one sentence copywork) and she will already write 3 summary sentences for a science assignment.

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I'm just second-guessing if I should have started off with WWE from the get-go. I guess my question is more about what WWE's intent is: was it meant for kids who are clearly writing-phobic? I never gave my kids a chance to show me whether they are or not before deciding on WWE. I like it, esp. since it's easy to do. But that's my preference for me, the teacher. Does it sound like I've misunderstood what SWB was getting at in the grammar stage writing section of WTM about this? I'm trying to understand how I should have gone about choosing a writing program in the first place. Thanks for the reassurance, Colleen!

 

Oh, after reading that part in the new WTM, I think I see what you're wondering and why. (I missed the "heart" of your other post, but now I see it :D)

 

Hmm....well, my interpretation is that she was offering an alternative to things like IEW, Writing Strands, or whatever in the early grades, that would set the basic foundations in place - then the student could more easily do IEW, etc.. But, I think there are students out there who maybe don't need WWE (?) and do fine with other programs that start a little beyond copywork/dication and narration. ?? I mean, WWE definitely works for the writing-phobic! But I see what you mean about wondering if your kids really needed it. (thinking out loud now) I never thought about that - I know my son *needed* the run through of WWE after years of fits and starts of copywork/dictation and narration. And with dd, I just started her, I didn't look around at other programs for her, probably because I just liked the foundation that WWE sets. She did "take to" writing more easily than ds did, and she loves to do creative writing like poems and stories on her own. Anyway, my reasoning for WWE for her was 1)liked foundation 2)liked how easy it was 3) liked how I could tie the content areas in with it and make a curriculum multi-task our days 4) price for four years' worth of instruction.

 

That said - as ds progressed through R&S grammar books, we did the "creative writing" lessons such as poems and stories, but I did not "use them across the curriculum" with him. I did the lesson with him more as just a taste to see if he bit, and to introduce elements of stories and poems. Beyond that, he didn't bite and I don't care. I think as dd progresses through R&S, she might delve deeper into the creative writing lessons and she might take off with them on her own. I guess the creative writing lessons in R&S will be tools she can learn and use to enjoy poems and stories, as well as actually writing some on her own. Does that make sense? So in that sense, I don't regret using WWE for her, because I know what is in R&S as far as creative writing. Creative writing instruction will be there for her if she wants it. But she'll also have the foundation with WWE that I definitely want her to have.

 

hth!

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