High School Progrssion for Pre-Med

[flyingiguana]

Here's a quote from the Denver School of Medicine.

"Can I take my prerequisite courses at a Community College?

On occasion, applicants who graduated from college and had not initially chosen medicine as a career during their undergraduate years will take a small number of their prerequisites at the local community college. However, part of the overall assessment of each candidate includes the "strength of the science background" taken. If some of the science prerequisites are taken at the community college, these should be coupled with outstanding MCAT scores."

 

However, they say they receive over 4,500 applications for 160 positions, with 600 interviews granted.  I have to think that it would be hard to compete with community college in the sciences, unless the student really stood out in other ways.

 

 

 

Here's a quote from the University of Minnesota School of Medicine:

"Can I take some of the prerequisites at a community college?

Yes, you can take some but not all of the prerequisites at a community college. Some of the prerequisites call for upper level courses which can only be fulfilled at a four-year institution."

 

This year the U of M only admitted 170 students out of a pool of 3,669.

Neither of these guidelines in any way proves that a student can't do some classes at a cc for eventual med school admission. In fact, it seems to argue the opposite. The U of M one is just pointing out that cc's don't offer the upper level classes one might need. It doesn't say the lower level ones can't be done at a cc.

 

The first quote actually seems more to be saying that a couple of freshman chem and bio courses isn't going to get you in unless you can also demonstrate a real grasp of the science on the MCAT. In other words, if you don't have the upper division courses, you'd better wow us with your science knowledge. They're being open to admitting people who don't have all the courses. That's all.

 

The cc's are accredited. Most of the courses (if the student knows what they're doing) will transfer into any 4 year college. So how are they not up to snuff for med school? The arguments in this thread seem to be coming down to people just imagining that it wouldn't look as good -- and because med school is hard to get into, any kid with a cc class is automatically going to be cut from consideration. But I'm not seeing any proof of this in the above quotes.

 

I would not be surprised, if one looked at statistics, if a kid with cc classes looked more likely to get in to med school. A student who comes up through the cc system and still finishes at a 4 year college might look MORE attractive because they "suffered" some in their early years of college. It's just a hypothesis.

 

Maybe this is just me hoping that med school admissions have become more open to taking on students that aren't just straight A wunderkind. Back when I was still teaching genetics, I saw an awful lot of bozos get into med school. They happened to have straight A's. But they were, well, kind of dumb when it came to life. Other kids had a lot more compassion and smarts and did not get in. They would have made much better doctors.

[Julie in MN]

Neither of these guidelines in any way proves that a student can't do some classes at a cc for eventual med school admission. In fact, it seems to argue the opposite. The U of M one is just pointing out that cc's don't offer the upper level classes one might need. It doesn't say the lower level ones can't be done at a cc.

 

The first quote actually seems more to be saying that a couple of freshman chem and bio courses isn't going to get you in unless you can also demonstrate a real grasp of the science on the MCAT.

Hmm, interesting how we can all read the same thing and come to different conclusions :)

 

What I see:

a. My son has a VERY SMALL chance of getting in. 

b. Community college credits are different enough from courses at regular colleges to warrant their own FAQ conversation, complete with special precautions.

c. Thus cc credits are noticed by med schools and not just lumped with other college courses.

d. All of this together means that my son's VERY SMALL chance might become VERY, VERY SMALL if he were to take cc sciences.

 

 

flyingiguana:  Back when I was still teaching genetics, I saw an awful lot of bozos get into med school. They happened to have straight A's. But they were, well, kind of dumb when it came to life. Other kids had a lot more compassion and smarts and did not get in. They would have made much better doctors.

 

I totally agree, my son said the same thing of engineers he graduated with.

 

However, it doesn't mean that admissions folks will see that, especially if you don't make the cut into interviews.  Almost 4,000 applicants are not even given an interview, every year, at one school.  And in the end, often interviewers can't rely as much on interviews, because so many folks are just good at talking themselves up.

 

My son interviewed a pharmacy tech who was trying and trying to get into pharmacy school, had done tons of real-life stuff with patients, and was running the entire chemotherapy department, ordering and mixing everyone's chemo every day, and it was tough even for him to get into his pharmacy program, took several years of applications. 

 

That's not medical school, but just to say that wanting something to be, and even believing something to be, doesn't mean it will be.

[creekland]

Neither of these guidelines in any way proves that a student can't do some classes at a cc for eventual med school admission.

They don't have to prove it as no med school will want it to be impossible.  However, note that Denver is talking about students who did not initially plan on going into medicine -  "On occasion, applicants who graduated from college and had not initially chosen medicine as a career during their undergraduate years will take a small number of their prerequisites at the local community college.'

 

Students who think they want medicine from the get go are those who are discouraged from taking pre-req courses at a cc due to the perceived difference in the caliber of the classes and the other students.  It may be only a perceived difference or it may be a real difference, but it doesn't really matter.  Incidentally, between our cc and middle son's 4 year school it's a real difference as youngest took the cc class and was able to compare sitting in with middle son on a visit - not to mention test questions they shared with each other (after the test, of course).  However, at lower level 4 year schools the courses can be similar to cc (using students from school to assess).  Nonetheless, the perception as we were told is that it is the "easy" way out for grades and taking the "easy" way is not a trait they want to see from future med students.

 

We can argue all we want on any particular forum as to whether it should be that way or not, and whether our country is losing potentially good doctors or not (I agree that I suspect we are), but when it comes down to a high school student wanting to go into medicine, telling them to take pre-reqs at a cc is not doing them any favors when it comes to admission.  The competition is fierce.  Yes, they may make it anyway, but they also might not.  I do not think the odds are anywhere near in their favor when compared to an identical candidate who took their pre-reqs at a reasonably decent 4 year school.

 

Currently, less than half the applicants who apply make it into ANY med school.  We opted not to have nicks on middle son's app if he still wants to apply when the time comes - and if not - taking the pre-reqs at a 4 year school certainly didn't hurt him.

[Gwen in VA]

"The cc's are accredited. Most of the courses (if the student knows what they're doing) will transfer into any 4 year college. So how are they not up to snuff for med school?"

 

Not all classes are equal. Calculus I at the community college does not equal Calculus I at a top-ranked LAC does not equal Calculus I at a top-ranked engineering school. The classes may all cover approximately the same material, but (at least from my and my kids' experience) the CC will do more of a copycat method of the basics, so the student can do "normal" expected calculus problems; the LAC will have significantly harder problems, and the engineering school will emphasize unusual applications. Do all courses cover Calculus I? Yes. Are the courses remotely equivalent? No! (This is written from first-hand experience, BTW!)

 

Another way of looking at it. Almost all U. S. students take U.S. History. Some students will have read an easy textbook and that's it. Some students will use a much harder text and written essays. Some students will have not only used a harder text but also read huge numbers of primary source documents and written analyses of those primary sources. At the end of the year, all the students will have passed U.S. History, but the courses were not remotely equivalent.

 

The quality of the college DOES matter to med schools and grad schools. I am not saying grads from Harvard are a shoe-in; I'm saying that there are colleges from which a student would be hard-pressed to be competitive in the post-baccalaureate educational pool. Make sure that students from the school your student is taking classes have succeeded in doing what your child is interested in pursuing (or its educational equivalent!)!

[creekland]

Not all classes are equal.

Comparing our cc to middle son's 4 year, English, Calc, Bio, and Chem are all incredibly easier at our cc.

 

Comparing our cc to oldest son's 4 year, English was easier at the cc.  I have no way to compare the other classes.

 

Comparing our cc to lower level 4 year schools kids from school attend the science/math classes tend to be comparable.

 

I've yet to see our cc be more challenging with these classes, but they can be equal at some - definitely not at all.

 

Med schools don't actually need the content to be super in depth (so I'm told) as they teach you all you need to know in med school.  They mainly want to see that potential pre-meds are willing to take on the competition and end up at or very near the top of their class.  When a student seems to want to opt out of the competition (take the easy way out), that's a personal trait they don't want to see.  IF one can get an app looked at (very high MCAT or other), then they could probably see when some choose to do it for the money/cost rather than due to the competition, but getting an app looked at - and an interview - isn't always so easy.  Med schools get all transcripts from all colleges where one took any classes - even from high school.  If they choose to not care for cc, they can.  There are oodles of applicants they can consider.

 

Some states are easier to get into med school than others due to having nice in-state options where slots are reserved for in-state students and there isn't as much competition. I would suspect those med schools to be more lenient with where credits come from.  However, many of us don't live in those states.

 

Thus, the general advice to check with med schools you think your student might be interested in and see what they recommend BEFORE making important decisions about pre-req classes is still the best advice.

[flyingiguana]

I still think folks are reading this wrong.  The few quotes from med schools that were provided here don't say anything about cc courses not being accepted.  Or being perceived as being lesser.  The two quotes actually only state that one can't take the upper division courses at a cc, because they don't exist there.  So either take them at a 4 yr institution (the only place they exist) or show us you've picked up the knowledge in some extra curricular fashion with a stellar MCAT score.

 

I'm only repeating this because there may be people reading who will take all this as actual knowledgable advice.  I don't think it is.  It seems to be some guesswork based on faulty logic: a) there are comments about cc courses from the med schools (none of them actually consecending) and b ) few students get into med school -- ergo -- cc courses make it impossible to get into med school.  It doesn't make sense when laid out like that, but that is exactly the argument that is being made above.

 

The point is being made (by those med school quotes) that one actually has to have some science knowledge to get in.  That's certainly fair.  But the quotes do not make any value judgement on how that knowledge was attained.

 

And I will repeat this, despite the anecdotes above, there are many cc's where the classes can be just as demanding as at a 4 yr university.  If you want to assess this, perhaps the best way is to look at what graduates do.  Do cc graduates go on to 4 yr schools and then into fields you or your student want to get into?  At what rate? (Assuming the goal is a 4 yr college...)

 

I've also taken some pretty AWFUL classes at major 4 yr institutions.  (I've seen some pretty awful ones as well, on coursera, at those big name places like Yale and Stanford and Berkeley.  Course, I'm judging them on content and presentation, and whether I could do as well or better -- not on the name.  Which seems to wow a lot of people.)  But one can't assume that one bad class at a cc means all cc's and all classes at cc's are bad.  You really can't tell anything from a couple classes.  What you need to make these statements is a statistical analysis.  I still haven't seen that in this discussion.  Anecdotes can be made back and forth.  They don't really mean anything.

[creekland]

I still think folks are reading this wrong.  The few quotes from med schools that were provided here don't say anything about cc courses not being accepted.  Or being perceived as being lesser.  The two quotes actually only state that one can't take the upper division courses at a cc, because they don't exist there.  So either take them at a 4 yr institution (the only place they exist) or show us you've picked up the knowledge in some extra curricular fashion with a stellar MCAT score.

 

I'm only repeating this because there may be people reading who will take all this as actual knowledgable advice. 

 

As I've mentioned many times, people on here should be doing their own research based upon where they are and the schools their student may be interested in.  That will be current info from the horse's mouth (so to speak) and based upon paths they are likely to choose.

 

But I also have to say you're doing a huge disservice having not looked into things personally and offering folks info that you wish to be true as advice.

 

For the most part (some variation), the pre-req courses for med school are 1 year of Bio, 1 year of Chem, 1 year of Organic Chem, 1 year of Physics, 1 year of English/writing, and 1 year of Calc.  Some are starting to add social sciences, genetics, and humanities.  Which of those aren't offered at cc?  Here they are all offered.  If one takes the "basic" classes at a cc, then many med schools want to see additional credits in Bio/Chem, etc at a 4 year school instead, but even that isn't preferred.  It just makes it more acceptable than just the cc classes.  Ditto that with AP if using credits.

 

Otherwise, check out Student Doctor Network for some "real" students going through the process (now) and real advice online.  Check out College Confidential for thoughts from doctors, parents, and students all in various stages of the process now.  Check with med school admissions themselves.

 

Definitely don't take advice from a forum with folks NOT in the process who haven't investigated what they are talking about IMO.

 

Can someone take a pre-req cc course or two and still make it in? Sure.  There will be some stellar students out there and they are likely to be "found" somewhere and make it in.  They will also likely have great LORs or other hooks to help.  Is it the preferred method for the vast majority of pre-med wannabes?  Not according to the advice we've received when we looked into it 2 years ago.  Not according to the advice I still see on pre-med specific forums.  If one prefers to go with the better odds, I'd be cautious.  We aren't talking a basic degree with 2 + 2 and then grad school.  We're talking med school.  Med schools are in their own realm - at least - most of them are - and they get oodles of apps allowing them to be super choosy.

[flyingiguana]

All I'm saying is that no one in this particular thread has given any concrete evidence that a cc course or two (or an AP) will doom a student who wants to go to med school.

 

The only evidence given (quotes from the schools themselves) actually refutes the general consensus that cc is bad and will keep a student out of med school.

 

The rest of it is hearsay.

 

I'm not doing anyone a disservice by pointing out that they should check into this on their own through the colleges rather than depending on the opinions offered here.  On that we agree, so I'm not quite sure why the argument seems to continue.

[regentrude]

The cc's are accredited. Most of the courses (if the student knows what they're doing) will transfer into any 4 year college.

 

That is simply not correct. Just because a cc is accredited does not mean that any 4 year college will accept transfer credit.

In fact, some of the universities DD is interested in will not even accept any transfer credit from another 4 year university.

 

[flyingiguana]

That is simply not correct. Just because a cc is accredited does not mean that any 4 year college will accept transfer credit.

In fact, some of the universities DD is interested in will not even accept any transfer credit from another 4 year university.

"If the student knows what they're doing..."

 

I'm only pointing out that tarring all cc's as deficient is pretty silly.

 

The student needs to do some research. Which is all I've been saying from the start. Depending on opinions here without supporting evidence is going to lead people astray.

 

In any case, if a particular college will not accept outside credit, then the discussion here is pretty irrelevant. The question, as I understood it, was whether a few cc courses early on, that then transferred into a 4 year university was going to slam the door shut on med school for an otherwise promising student.

 

I'm actually kind of getting the feeling that some folks here are thinking I'm advocating trying to get into a med school with only an AA degree.

 

I'm only advocating for logic and individual research, rather than depending solely on questionable advice on this forum.

[regentrude]

"If the student knows what they're doing..."

 

Even if the student knows what he or she is doing, the courses will not transfer to "ANY" 4 year college as you claimed, but only to some.

 

 

[Candid]

All I'm saying is that no one in this particular thread has given any concrete evidence that a cc course or two (or an AP) will doom a student who wants to go to med school.

 

The only evidence given (quotes from the schools themselves) actually refutes the general consensus that cc is bad and will keep a student out of med school.

 

The rest of it is hearsay.

 

I'm not doing anyone a disservice by pointing out that they should check into this on their own through the colleges rather than depending on the opinions offered here.  On that we agree, so I'm not quite sure why the argument seems to continue.

 

Creekland's evidence is strong and in my opinion out weights finding two school with kind of maybe information on the web. Could you still be right? Sure, but her evidence will need to be set aside with more than what you've presented. 

 

I'm also puzzled why you don't do what she did and ask admission's folks at med schools the same question you asked here. Tell them your proposed senario, ask if that student has straight As, perfect standardized test scores and glowing recommendations, will they be accepted? If so, then ask what level below that will cause them to not be accepted?  IF their answer is radically different then come back here and let us know and tell us which schools told you that. We'd all like to hear that. 

 

As is it begins to feel like a waste of time to discuss this here with you. You've got your mind set on a course and you won't be swayed. I'm fine with that, but don't expect in giving advice to others to find yours the only opinion. 

 

As for hearsay, that's nonsense and begins to feel a bit insulting to Creekland and others. Hearsay is a rule of evidence for criminal courts where people are sent to jail or even excuted based on the evidence, not forums. To invoke it is both off and at least in my mind implies you don't believe they heard that. 

[creekland]

The question, as I understood it, was whether a few cc courses early on, that then transferred into a 4 year university was going to slam the door shut on med school for an otherwise promising student.

 

There may very well be some med schools that know their local ccs and are ok with courses from there.  This is most likely to happen with med schools that cater to in state residents.  Here's a list of all med schools (MD) in the US, their number of applicants, % from each state, and # of matriculants:

 

https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/2012factstable1.pdf

 

To know if this could be a successful path, check with the school(s) to see if students regularly successfully follow this path.  If so, then it's a viable one.  If one student does it every now and then, I'd be cautious personally.  Do research and check.  The schools we checked with were ones my guy was likely to want to apply to in the future (two in state, one Top 10 private).  We did not check with ALL schools and would have no reason to check with schools catering to other state residents.

 

I'm not anti-cc in general.  I just think people need to be cautious if heading to med school based upon research we've personally done.

 

Ccs can be great for various other medical fields (nursing, techs, etc) providing great programs at a lower cost.  Around us, there's no problem with graduates getting jobs.  I often recommend cc to students looking in these fields.

 

All of my boys have had cc DE classes (the oldest and youngest are not even remotely pre-med).  Middle son had Microbio, Effective Speaking, and English.  We had planned on him taking Chem until we went to the first of three med school admissions days we attended.  There I first heard the caution about cc classes, and it worried me so I asked the med school rep.  They told me he would be fine since it wasn't a pre-req - just make sure he does well in it.  When I mentioned that we had planned on doing Chem we were told, "I wouldn't recommend it."  Both later sessions (different med schools) offered the same caution in group sessions.

 

Considering med school acceptance rates are equivalent to tippy top undergrad school rates, we opted to go with what was preferred.  YMMV.

 

For those who do choose to start at ccs for financial reasons (or whatever), then try not to take pre-reqs there.  If you need to put one or two in, Calc and Physics seem to be the two med schools care about the least (some don't even require those classes).  If you need to do the others, plan on doing higher level courses when at the 4 year.  This often means doing 2 + 3 rather than 2 + 2 to fit it all in and still isn't considered ideal (some adcoms REALLY want to see how students handle the "weeder" classes at the 4 year school), but it's not fatal - esp if everything else looks impeccable.

 

If one is a high school student looking for DE to support hs grades, it's simple.  Pick courses that aren't pre-reqs and do well in them.

 

And note that this is all for students who know they want med school from the beginning - whose applications will reflect that.  For those who decide later the "rules" are completely different.  Why?  (Yes, this was asked at a group session...)  Because students choosing that path from the beginning are perceived as looking for the "easy" route - not a trait they like to see.  Students who decided later were totally "clueless" about it all (as it relates to med school).  It may be the $$, but that's not the perception.  I guess in general, students who end up being med school candidates often have the stats to do well with merit aid at many 4 year schools (not necessarily top ones that don't offer merit aid, but at others) so cost shouldn't have to be an issue, but yes, that last part is a guess as to their reasoning.  A plausible guess.

[creekland]

I should add... to find schools that tend to cater to in-state populations, check your state and look for schools where matriculants are > 80% in state.  If app percentage is lower from in-state, and matriculants are > 80%, you've got a good candidate.  Then check with that school to see if they'd care about pre-reqs coming from ccs.  They may not care or they may tell you to take an additional year at a 4 year school or something else?  (If so, please share.)  If one checks, you'll see we don't have such a school in PA.  Our schools are quite competitive - esp since a larger population gives us a higher in state pool too.  Two lines above us, OK looks to be such a school.  AL appears to have good candidates too.  Check with schools near you.  You may live in an "easier" state. ;)

 

Here's a chart showing numbers of applicants from each state.  Note PA is in the thousands.  OK is in the 300s and almost half can make it in to the local school, AL in the 400s and again, their two med schools can take roughly half of those based on quick estimates from percentages.  It's possible (note I'm just saying possible as this is all mental reasoning, NOT anything "official") that they will care less about cc courses as pre-reqs.

 

Maybe the homeschool advice for those looking at med school should be to look at moving if in a "more difficult" state...

[kroe1]

All I'm saying is that no one in this particular thread has given any concrete evidence that a cc course or two (or an AP) will doom a student who wants to go to med school.

 

The only evidence given (quotes from the schools themselves) actually refutes the general consensus that cc is bad and will keep a student out of med school.

 

The rest of it is hearsay.

 

I'm not doing anyone a disservice by pointing out that they should check into this on their own through the colleges rather than depending on the opinions offered here.  On that we agree, so I'm not quite sure why the argument seems to continue.

 

Well, it's not hearsay in my case as we've already been through the process with multiple family members.  Admittedly, the last one who went through medical school was 8 years ago, but the process hasn't changed in 50 years.  I was working with 4th year medical students up until last year and listened to similar testimonies many times over.  The points I made on page 1 of this thread should get just about anyone an interview.  The only thing I didn't mention was how to do the interview, but I figure if someone makes it to that point, he'll figure it out. 

 

You can also find tips for acceptance in most MCAT study guides. 

 

We have a good friend who still sits on a medical school acceptance committee.  He has a very vague way of addressing would be applicants and rarely answers specific questions unless pinned to the floor.  The reason is that schools want tons of applicants.  Not only does it give them a wider pool from which to make a choice, it also makes the application statistics better.  In other words, it does not behoove them to discourage applicants before the application is received.  So get your information from as many sources as possible. 

 

HTH

[at the beach]

I don't know if this is off-topic. Here's the issue for us. Online AP classes may not always be the right option, especially when seeing them through and taking the AP exam at the end of such a class. All you need to do is go read reviews on the PAHS site to see how much time kids are putting into these. I just don't think it is as efficient (for my child anyway) or works for all kids to learn in that format. Some kids learn better by listening to a teacher lecture and having access to a live teacher. 

 

I could give my daughter an AP level text, buy a lab kit and tell her to have at it, but she would not enjoy that. And doing a class on one's own, some kids would find it daunting at best to make their way through an AP level textbook and prepare for an exam without a class of some kind. Science is not my speciality, and I do not have time to do a whole science class with her. Furthermore, I'd be unhappy at the end of the year if she wasn't prepared for both a subject exam and an AP exam because I am interested in outside validation for science classes for my child. That's not a risk I am willing to take. 

 

My daughter is doing cc biology as a high school student at our cc with the Raven AP level book. She loves it. She loves the teacher, who has a great background. She loves the labs. She is incredibly excited to be doing this. Online science would have been a tedious exercise for her I think. She did fantastic with DO Physics last year. But she now tells me it would have been so much more efficient to learn it in a class with a live teacher in her opinion. She did DO honors version and always maintained a very high A. 

 

Easy to say, have a child do AP science and avoid cc. Sometimes not so easy to implement or not the best choice. That's the reality here. And I just thought I would share. I am fully aware these college grades will count.

 

If a homeschooled high schooler decides that the cc is the best way for him/her to get a science education in high school, I would hope a med school would down the road be able to understand that,  but I cannot make decisions now based on what might happen close to a decade in the future. JMO. I will note that on another list I am on there have been discussions about this. One mom shared how her son did tons of cc courses, including science prerequisites. He went to a highly competitive (top 10?) undergrad school and is in a highly competitive doctor scientist program. I recall other moms also wrote about how doing this did not hurt their students from what I recall. No hard data, of course, just those mother's personal experiences with their children. I also read a thread on coll conf where several doctors (and I think they are on admissions committees but don't recall for sure) also don't agree that this is such a risky thing. Maybe I can find the thread and link it. But as with anything, we all have to decide what level of risk we're willing to take and everyone has a different opinion on what is risky. ;)

 

I absolutely agree, if you go to a four-year college and suddenly you are taking your science prerequisites someplace else or over the summer, it can perhaps look questionable. That's not what we have been talking about here, though. 

[Crimson Wife]

If your DD is interested in primary care, you may want to encourage her to consider physician's assistant or nurse practitioner as a career. Those programs are a total of 6 years vs. 8 for bachelor's + med school plus another 3-5+ year residency. PA's and NP's make only a bit less than primary care physicians and they've got a lot more autonomy these days to practice medicine (which is only likely to grow under Obamacare).

 

I dropped out of pre-med halfway through college when I started to get serious with my now-DH and realized that I didn't want to be in grad school & residency until I was in my 30's and then having to stay employed in order to pay off huge student loans. The last 2 years of college, I thought I wanted to go into medical genetics/genetics counseling but I got waitlisted for Master's programs and for various reasons chose not to re-apply.

 

I really wish that when I was in high school & college I had been encouraged to explore other health professions instead of everyone pushing the most prestigious-but-family-unfriendly one of being a physician.

[creekland]

 I will note that on another list I am on there have been discussions about this. One mom shared how her son did tons of cc courses, including science prerequisites. He went to a highly competitive (top 10?) undergrad school and is in a highly competitive doctor scientist program.

I'd be curious to know if the Top 10 (or 20) undergrad allowed those cc credits.  Those we were interested in did not, nor does the school my guy goes to now (Top 30).  If not, her son would have taken the weeder course in undergrad and I definitely wouldn't see where that would be any cause for alarm - esp coming from a Top something undergrad.  The cc course (or AP) would have been "normal" high school fare for students going in to that intro course (likely a deeper level course).  If the student transferred into the Top something college, I think he was already outside the norm (transfer admissions rates to those schools are really low) meaning he already proved himself as something special.  Transferring that experience to a "normal" applicant might be risky, but overall, yes, it does show that cc classes are not a fatal nick in the app - esp when one can prove their caliber afterward.  ;)

 

If you're recalling the same college confidential thread I think you are, ONE doctor was saying it didn't make any difference and quite a few were saying otherwise.  That doctor currently worked in a hospital, but not on any (current) admissions committee.  He was having his daughter start at cc because it was easier.  It'll be interesting to see how it turns out if he stays on cc.  Of course, having a daddy as a doctor would seem to be a nice hook... so it might not be a fair comparison for those of us without such hooks.  But it might not be the same thread.  I would guess that happened 6 months or so ago, but sometimes I'm not so good with recalling the passage of time.  After all, it was only yesterday that my youngest was starting kindergarten... ;)

[creekland]

If your DD is interested in primary care, you may want to encourage her to consider physician's assistant or nurse practitioner as a career. Those programs are a total of 6 years vs. 8 for bachelor's + med school plus another 3-5+ year residency. PA's and NP's make only a bit less than primary care physicians and they've got a lot more autonomy these days to practice medicine (which is only likely to grow under Obamacare).

 

FWIW, these are being encouraged more and more everywhere we go from high school guidance to college advisers to even med school advisers.  Many are seeing the value and pros of these routes vs the traditional MD route.  They are definitely worth considering.

 

However, my guy still has his heart set on MD, so we'll see where it leads (if he continues to want it).

[at the beach]

I'd be curious to know if the Top 10 (or 20) undergrad allowed those cc credits.  Those we were interested in did not, nor does the school my guy goes to now (Top 30).  If not, her son would have taken the weeder course in undergrad and I definitely wouldn't see where that would be any cause for alarm - esp coming from a Top something undergrad.  The cc course (or AP) would have been "normal" high school fare for students going in to that intro course (likely a deeper level course).  If the student transferred into the Top something college, I think he was already outside the norm (transfer admissions rates to those schools are really low) meaning he already proved himself as something special.  Transferring that experience to a "normal" applicant might be risky, but overall, yes, it does show that cc classes are not a fatal nick in the app - esp when one can prove their caliber afterward.  ;)

 

If you're recalling the same college confidential thread I think you are, ONE doctor was saying it didn't make any difference and quite a few were saying otherwise.  That doctor currently worked in a hospital, but not on any (current) admissions committee.  He was having his daughter start at cc because it was easier.  It'll be interesting to see how it turns out if he stays on cc.  Of course, having a daddy as a doctor would seem to be a nice hook... so it might not be a fair comparison for those of us without such hooks.  But it might not be the same thread.  I would guess that happened 6 months or so ago, but sometimes I'm not so good with recalling the passage of time.  After all, it was only yesterday that my youngest was starting kindergarten... ;)

 

 

Hi, creekland. :) No, I think this was a typical student entering as a Freshman. In fact, there were several people who I recall talked about something like this. Like you said, with time passing, it's hard to recall exactly. And so maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it? But my only point was I think sometimes we just have to make our best decision now for our child and not worry too much about the distant future. There are always going to be anecdotal stories to support either perspective probably. :)

 

FWIW, my oldest daughter's friend did not get into med school first time around even though he had a high MCAT and a doctor dad. He did get in the second time around after he did some shadowing/volunteering. 

 

I don't know if we are referring to the same cc thread. I found the link, though, for the one I was referring to and it seems to me there were two doctors commenting. Here it is: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/1525379-33-act-pre-med-where-go-ug-5.html

[creekland]

I don't know if we are referring to the same cc thread. I found the link, though, for the one I was referring to and it seems to me there were two doctors commenting. Here it is: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/1525379-33-act-pre-med-where-go-ug-5.html

 

I think I'm combining threads mentally, but yes, that's one that came to mind.  I just re-read the whole thing.  Frugaldoctor is the poster I was referring to who was pro.  The rest left that part alone (the cc part).  Bartleby was talking about how people from many walks of life can get into med school (no arguments there).  The rest were talking about how one can get to med school from pretty much any school, but all mentioned were 4 year schools - just different caliber (no arguments there either).  MiamiDAP's daughter went to a free ride school (not high caliber).  I've got ideas about which one, but I'm not positive, so don't want to put a name on here.  It doesn't really matter.  I've seen students go to fairly low level colleges and make it into med school if they've done well.  The advice I gave on there is the same as what I give on here - find a school where your student's stats are in the Top 25% of students entering, and then, as Bartleby suggested (twice), work hard.

 

We do have to all make our own choices based upon what is available for us.  To anyone heading toward med school, I wish you (them) luck - regardless of path chosen!

[creekland]

Just a final comment here...

 

One thing has been bugging me about this thread, but until now I couldn't quite place what it was.  Now I think I "have it."  I feel like I'm being combative in this thread and I don't like that feeling.  I don't ever want to be combative in a forum, especially so in a homeschooling forum.  I never mind sharing info - I feel we ALL win when people share experiences and thoughts.  Then readers can pick and choose what "fits" them and we all win.

 

I've shared what I've learned with regards to pre-med and our experiences.  It might be helpful for some, it might not apply to others.  Either is ok with me.  We all pick our own paths based upon pros and cons.  I'm not likely to "know" more until middle son starts going through the app process (this assumes he chooses to stick with it).  Thus...  what I've written is already on here and I don't really have more to add.

 

As stated before, to anyone considering pre-med, I wish you well on your journey (no matter how you decide to try to get there)!  I feel our country (and this world) needs more doctors and I tend to think homeschoolers are likely to be good at it (being able to think outside the box and such things)!  I may be biased, but such is life. ;)

[Alice]

My thoughts as a practicing pediatrician (who admittedly went through the application process back in the age of the dinosaurs, but has been involved with application committees since then)....

 

To the OP who asked specifically about what to do for a high school student interested in medicine.

 

-Encourage her interest. Encourage her to seek out volunteer opportunities or real-life shadowing opportunities to see if she really likes medicine. Encourage her to talk to people who are doctors. Yes, some of us are dinosaurs and some of us are bitter and would choose another path but some of us love medicine and love to talk to teens who are interested in it.

 

-Encourage her to read. The New Yorker idea mentioned earlier is fantastic but also books by people like Atul Gawande, Jerome Groopman, Oliver Sacks, Harold Klawans, Perri Klass, Richard Selzer, Bernard Rouche. Copied from my blog here is a link to medical books I love:http://supratentorial.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/the-deadly-dinner-party-and-some-other-books/ From a pragmatic standpoint, reading these kinds of books as well as things on more recent developments/research/ethics will help in interviews. From a more important standpoint, if she likes medicine she’ll find them really fascinating. 

 

-Encourage her to develop other passions. Yes, so it will “make her standout†but also because it will make her a more interesting person and a better doctor. And because sadly, time is limited once you start the pre-med, medical school treadmill and it’s nice to have time to develop your love for art or music or theater or fencing or whatever now while you have the time. 

 

-Build a strong foundation in science and math. I think there are almost too many options out there today. I won’t get into the Community College/AP class/credit debate. I majored in Chemistry and Biology in college and I do know that even then I was told that they preferred us not to use our AP credits to get out of intro Chem or Bio as the AP classes were not considered true college level classes. Mostly though, just take a lot of science and have a good foundation in Math, at least through Calculus. Statistics is almost always required also, but can be taken in college. If she loves science it will be fun to take lot of upper level science classes. If she doesn’t, well she might need to rethink her career choice. I say that not to be snarky but I can’t tell you how many people have said to me over the years “I would have gone into medicine if it didn’t require so much science.†We could have a debate over whether the current track to medical school makes the most sense but the fact is that it is the current track. It requires a lot of science. Medical school requires a lot of science. A practicing career in medicine requires at least some enjoyment and knowledge of science. If you don’t like science, medicine is probably not a good choice. 

 

-Work on writing and communication skills. Many doctors are lacking in these and I think in today’s world a candidate who has strong writing and interviewing skills will stand out even more. 

 

-I am a strong believer in doing what you love. I saw many people in college, medical school, residency or later who were there for the wrong reasons. Wrong reasons to me would be anything other than “I want to be a doctor because I want to be a doctor.†Financial security, parental expectations, not knowing what else to do with a science degree, some idea about job stability are all bad reasons. It’s a LOT of work along the way. Major in something she loves. If it happens to be Biology, great. That will come out in the interview and application process and make her stand out from all the other biology majors who did it because there parents told them to. If it happens to be Philosophy, great. That will stand-out and be just fine (as long as she can prove that she can do the science and math). 

 

And just for interest (and as somewhat of a rebuttal to the idea of not listening to those of us who did all this years ago) I include these stats which I think are interesting. 

 

https://www.aamc.org/download/153708/data/charts1982to2012.pdf

 

If you read the charts you see that the rate of applications over the past 30 some years has gone up and down some as the rate of matriculation (and acceptance) has remained about the same. It was about 50% in 1996 and is about 50% now. The number of applications actually peaked in the 90s. And although the number of applications was low in the early 80s, so was the number accepted giving a rate of 32% total. I think the difference may be that similar to colleges people now focus more on “the top tier†and so applications at certain schools has gone way up, giving them a much lower acceptance rate. But OVERALL the rate of acceptance has been fairly steady over time. 

 

 

[Alice]

 

I really wish that when I was in high school & college I had been encouraged to explore other health professions instead of everyone pushing the most prestigious-but-family-unfriendly one of being a physician.

I know we’ve had this conversation before and I do agree that we should talk to girls (and boys) about what it is realistically like to balance careers and families. However, I have to disagree completely with the notion that being a physician is by definition family unfriendly. I know a lot of women in medicine and there are many many different ways of balancing a family with being a physician. I work very little, I know other women pediatricians who work even less. :) 

[flyingiguana]

Started thinking about this again...

 

I've only looked at one med school, however, this is what the Univ Minn says about AP courses:

"Requirements cannot be fulfilled by AP credits. If you received AP credit for courses such as general chemistry or biology, you’ll still need 1 semester of chemistry and biology with labs. This can be an advanced chemistry, organic chemistry, or any advanced biology course. Do not re-take coursework for which you already received AP credit."

 

Although some may read that sloppily and conclude that AP is not allowed, that's not the case at all.

 

AP credit is FINE.  As long as the student subsequently demonstrates that they can do college level lab work in a real college course.

 

And if you look at their requirements, you'll see that most students would HAVE to take another lab science course in college, even if they had lots and lots of AP credits, just to fulfill the further requirements.  They aren't going to get AP credit for organic chemistry, for example.  They'll have to take it.  It should have a lab (if not, the college choice should probably be reconsidered).  So they'll have their science lab course at college done that way.

 

I also see no mention of ACT scores being necessary.  Or any restrictions on cc courses.

 

I'm not going to med school, so I'm not doing an exhaustive search.  There may be some schools with issues about these things, but my guess is that most are fairly enlightened about this.

 

In fact the science requirements look fairly weak to me.  A total of 6 science courses (that's 6 semesters) -- without even a full year of freshman bio or chemistry (although a full yr of one of the other may be implied by the fact that one has to take a few upper level classes in one or the other).  There's no requirement that these even be majors courses.  No math? This makes me think that getting into med school is not about years and years of prep -- it's more about demonstrating, one way or another, that you can do the work once you get there.  My guess is that they'll even consider chem majors who just never got around to taking that one required semester of bio.

 

My advice?  Don't sweat it.  Get a good foundation in something, with enough science courses that it looks like you can do med school work. If some med school has requirements you didn't fulfill, apply anyway and write a note about why you didn't fulfill them.  Most schools are more flexible than people think.  And if you don't get in the first time, go out and get some experience in the health fields and apply again.  I knew a number of people who got in on the 2nd or 3rd try.  (Some of them probably should never have got in, so I have my fingers crossed that they didn't finish....)

 

And any advice one gets in person from admissions reps is liable to be a bit over the top.  They want to avoid liability issues, so they're not going to admit that they let people in who had this or that ding or deficiency.  (It would not surprise me if a bit of humility in a student is a positive in admissions -- and it may be harder to appear humble if you're straight A with every i dotted and t crossed.  Particularly if the application reeks of someone who is proud of that accomplishment and has nothing else to offer.  The medical field is a helping profession.)

 

UM med school science requirements:

Biology with lab

• Biological sciences coursework with emphasis on general principles, cell biology and/or physiology
• 1 semester or 1 quarter 

Chemistry with lab

• General or Organic Chemistry
• 1 semester or 1 quarter 

Life sciences (additional courses)

• Biology, genetics, zoology, botany, parasitology, biochemistry, chemistry (general or organic, but must be in addition to the general or organic chemistry listed above), physics, etc. At least 2 must be upper-level courses.
• 4 semesters or 4 quarters

 

 

 

BTW -- the only programs I could find in my brief look who seemed to want ACT scores were BA/MD programs -- combining both the undergrad and the medical school in one fell swoop.  Of course they're going to want ACT scores.  I'm not finding this for regular MD programs.  Possibly they're out there, but they don't come up in a quick google.

[creekland]

From what I've heard of SAT/ACT scores, they are in the secondary apps and appear to be WUSTL and Duke - possibly others.  It was news to me, but appears to be true.

 

I picked VCU to check and list - mainly because a relative recently went there.  Here's what they say:

 

• What are the core prerequisite courses required for admission to medical school?
  Biology (with lab): Two semesters
  General Chemistry (with lab): Two semesters
  Organic Chemistry (with lab): Two semesters
  General Physics (with lab): Two semesters
  College Mathematics: Two semesters
  English: Two semesters
• Are community college classes accepted as prerequisite course credit?
  They may be, but the Admissions Committee generally expects students to complete all prerequisite courses at a four-year undergraduate institution.

http://www.medschool.vcu.edu/admissions/md/faq.html#q11

 

Same school - more info:

 

Applicants may be admitted on the basis of 90 semester hours of outstanding achievement; however, the majority of students admitted are completing their baccalaureate programs. Students are encouraged to select their college major in accordance with the individual student’s aptitude and interest. The prerequisites for the School of Medicine have been reduced to a minimum in order to permit the widest possible latitude in preparation for medical education. Prerequisites for admission include a minimum of 90 semester hours (or the equivalent) in a U.S. college or university accredited by the regional accrediting agency. This program of study must include a minimum of:

1. English or writing intensive courses : two semesters. One semester to include grammar and composition. Both courses must include intensive writing requirements. Other courses may be substituted upon request, please contact the admissions office.
2. College mathematics: two semesters. Statistics courses are considered as mathematics.
3. Biological science: eight semester hours, including laboratory. This may be satisfied by general biology, general zoology, or botany. No more than half may be botany.
4. General or introductory chemistry: eight semester hours, including laboratory. A portion of this requirement may be met by courses in analytical chemistry or physical chemistry.
5. Organic chemistry: eight semester hours, including laboratory. Biochemistry may be subsituted for half of the organic chemistry semester hours requirement. The courses should be equivalent to and acceptable for continued studies in a chemistry major.
6. General or introductory physics: eight semester hours, including laboratory experience.

The MCAT will change beginning in 2015
The changes include an added emphasis on the social and behavioral sciences, scientific inquiry, statistics and reasoning skills, and introductory biochemistry.
To learn more about the new exam, go to https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/273712/120216.html

The 2015 MCAT changes will result in the addition of biochemistry, sociology, psychology, and statistics (one semester of each) course prerequisites to the required program of study listed above that must be completed prior to admission. These changes will affect applicants applying for the 2016 entering class.

Students are encouraged to pursue their own intellectual interests in college in order to obtain a broad education consistent with their major program. Courses in medically related science areas will not relieve the student of his/her responsibility for these subjects in the medical curriculum. Science GPA is highly regarded by the Admissions Committee.

 

http://www.medschool.vcu.edu/admissions/md/prerequisites.html

 

It's important for those in the process now to see how things will be changing as the new MCAT comes.