High School Progrssion for Pre-Med

[thowell]

So Dd13 is leaning more and more towards a medical career. She ordered information from a couple of colleges she is interested in that have Pre-Med. So, I will admit I have no idea what I am doing in this regards!! Here is where she is now, Math she will be taking Algebra 1 8th grade and Apologia Physical Science with alot of living books and reference books added in. So, can you please help me map out her high school years to get the most out of them? We do plan to have her dual enroll in 11th and 12th. I am just not sure what courses to have her take to make sure she is ready. She also took Abeka's Biology course in 7th grade but will do another Biology in high school as AP (I am leaning towards BJU).

[Jann in TX]

One of my dds began college as Pre-Med (she has since switched majors).

 

Calculus 1 is the only required college math-- it is needed in order to work the required Calc-based college Physics class.  It can be taken in high school or College.  Many colleges still  require at least one math class in college-- so if calc is taken in high school it is often repeated in college.  Basic Accounting would be an excellent math elective in college for a Pre-Med student (in fact any business course would be good!).

 

Lots of science classes, Biology, Chemistry and Physics.  You could dual enroll for Chem 1 and Chem 2 if your CC or university you are using has a transfer agreement with the university she will eventually attend. My dd took Chem for non majors (basic high school Chem) dual enrollment then followed that with Chem 1 (standard college course).  She liked having the college lab access.

 

You look fine in Biology--if you have time add Bio 2--this is anatomy and physioligy (sp?).

Chem 1 and 2 (high school level or college level)

Physics-- a good solid high school course for foundation

 

Math-- a solid foundation in Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2 and Pre-Calc  with Calc option (you want to make sure the math progression does not have a year gap-- if she does not want or is not ready for Calc 1 then take Statistics Sr year if a math class is needed).

 

***ACT and/or SAT scores WILL be used to determine medical school placement options.  This is especially true if you are not a minority.  So those scores are not just for undergrad placement for Pre-Med students.

 

Make sure to check back with potential undergrade universities before she begins 11th grade to see if any of their requirements have changed...

 

HTH
Jann

 

 

[regentrude]

Lots of science classes, Biology, Chemistry and Physics.  You could dual enroll for Chem 1 and Chem 2 if your CC or university you are using has a transfer agreement with the university she will eventually attend.

 

Just a comment on this recommendation:

Creekland (?I think) has extensively researched med school admission, and she has repeatedly posted that it will be held against the student if he took basic science courses at CC instead of at the four year university; apparently this is seen as "taking the easy way out". The advice she received was not to transfer the credit if the student uses CC for high school, but to retake it at the university.

 

I have no idea whether this is the case; you may want to search for creekland's threads.

[regentrude]

***ACT and/or SAT scores WILL be used to determine medical school placement options.  This is especially true if you are not a minority.  So those scores are not just for undergrad placement for Pre-Med students.

 

How much weight do these carry compared to the MCAT?

[Jann in TX]

I talked to the university dd was wanting to attend and since our local CC had a matriculation agreement it would not be considered 'taking the easy way out'.  They did suggest having a high school level Chem on her transcript-- this is why we opted with the Chem for non-majors first.

 

Dual enrollment is seen differently from state to state... so rule #1 is Check with the University your child will be attending (or wants to attend).

 

As far as how much weight the ACT/SAT's carry-- I was shocked to see that it was linked more to ethnicity (the whiter your skin the more important they were and the HIGHER score needed)... the MCAT still determines graduate school... the ACT/SAT score demonstrates consistent aptitude (supposedly).

 

My dd teetered between Pre-Med and Pre-Dental.  The Dental schools were the ones who were the worst about ethnicity and ACT/SAT scores-- but we did find score minimums even in the requirements for medical school (graduate level).

 

PS-- my dd was looking mainly in Texas

[regentrude]

I talked to the university dd was wanting to attend and since our local CC had a matriculation agreement it would not be considered 'taking the easy way out'.  They did suggest having a high school level Chem on her transcript-- this is why we opted with the Chem for non-majors first.

 

Dual enrollment is seen differently from state to state... so rule #1 is Check with the University your child will be attending (or wants to attend).

 

What creekland reported was NOT about the university the students attend for their premed/undergraduate, but how the medical school views the college coursework. The med school did not want to see science courses taken at CC, even if the university had no problem accepting the credit for undergrad.

[Jann in TX]

The med schools we inquired about suggested that the first level of science be taken in high school-- so dual enrollment for the college sciences was fine.  Not every high school offers 'high school Chem 2'...

 

This is also why my dd took 'Chem for non majors' (knowing she would not get college-science credit for it due to her major).  It was viewed as high school Chem.

Most medical schools want to see the student take courses at the high school level then dive deeper into them at the college level.  Students who use Chem 1 and Chem 2 (through a CC or other dual enrollment college/university) for their lone high school Chemistry are seen 'skipping' a foundational level... so that is why they frown on it. 

 

This is why inquiry to specific schools is important.

[Twigs]

I highly recommend Medical Terminology before taking Anatomy and Physiology

 

In this thread I recommended Medical Terminology (the thread is about prepping for a nursing major - at the high school level, pre-med and pre-nursing will be comparable).

 

Here's another thread - check out post #10

 

I am currently working through The Language of Medicine as a refresher (I took med.term. many years ago). I kept watch on amazon and was able to get the 9th edition a few months ago pretty cheap when the 10th edition came out. It has since gone back up in price. This is workbook, so you will want a new copy. There are other workbooks available.

 

Best wishes

[creekland]

Ah, the joys of prepping for pre-med.  BTDT, so far, quite successfully.  At this point, whether he'll get into med school or not will totally depend upon him and the rest of his college days... he's at a good school and has a good start!

 

But for prep?

 

Yes, it's recommended that one stay away from any pre-req courses at community colleges if heading into college knowing one wants to be pre-med (different rules for those who decide later).  It will not kill your app, but it will be a nick against it according to ALL med school admissions folks we listened to.  AP does not do the same.  Taking courses at a cc is not a problem, but do realize ALL grades will count toward your GPA and sGPA (science and math classes).  It's only taking the pre-reqs there that is frowned upon due to the perception that such courses are easier.  In reality?  They definitely are easier when I've been comparing them to upper level schools.  They are more equivalent to state schools and less selective 4 year schools.  (I've been comparing via students from my high school who have gone on to colleges, then returned - comparing Bio, Chem, and Calc.  For Bio, youngest son has also taken cc Bio here and sat in on classes elsewhere during a couple of college visits.  He'll be comparing more in the fall.  He's not pre-med so having cc Bio credits is not a problem for him.)

 

My pre-med guy found it helpful to have AP level Bio, Chem, and Calc his senior year of high school so it was fresh when he took those classes at his 4 year school (a higher level school, so he started in 101 courses that were all well above AP level - Calc was the closest).  Since he was ahead in math, he opted to take Stats his junior year to take Calc his senior year.  He also took Anatomy and Physiology his senior year (with Apologia) and said that was incredibly helpful too (more for his Brain and Cognitive Science class than Bio).

 

Science - his schedule was heavy on this and he regrets none of it:

 

9th Apologia Bio

10th Apologia Chem

11th + 12th (split over two years) AP level Bio + Chem, Bio using Campbell's, Chem using Apologia's book 2 - I'd use Zumdahl in hindsight (did not take AP tests as did not want credit).

11th Microbio (DE class at cc - ok to have since it's not a pre-req science class)

12th A & P using Apologia, Physics (both books) using Apologia

 

Math:

 

9th Alg 2

10th Pre-Calc

11th AP level Stats (did accept credit for his 5 in this)

12th AP level (BC) Calc (did not take test as didn't want credit)

 

Also did AP level Psych (did accept credits for his 5) and I'd recommend putting that in as the MCAT and med schools are moving toward wanting more things like it even though they aren't pre-reqs at this point.

 

Some states are easier to get into med school than others due to having state schools that are specifically for students coming from that state.  Many of these can be more lenient in what they want or will overlook (like cc pre-reqs perhaps).  We designed our "start" to fit in with any med school including those in the Top 10 for rankings - hence - we shied away from any nicks going in.  Even the state med school program we listened to here frowned upon pre-reqs from cc.  It could be different in other states (we're in PA).

 

As to whether or not you should accept AP credit for Bio or Chem (Calc tends to be ok if you want it), my current suggestion is to check with the undergrad institution your student will be attending.  At some schools the Bio/Chem courses are identical to AP material so the only reason to do it over is to get an easy A (NOT really a bad thing for pre-med, but can be boring).  At other schools they assume practically all the students coming in have had Bio/Chem at the AP level and the intro course assumes that knowledge, then delves much deeper.  This is the case where middle son is.  Anyone coming in without that knowledge has far more to learn in the same amount of time - something I consider a disadvantage.  If you accept AP credit, note that many (not all) med schools will not and will want to see higher level courses completed at the 4 year school in Bio/Chem even if not needed for your major.

 

It is NOT required that one attend a top school to get into med school.  Choose an undergrad based upon fit, but then do very well at it.  I definitely recommend choosing a school where your student is in the top 25% of stats going in.  This guarantees nothing as the score doesn't show work ethic, but it does tend to show they have a good foundation compared to their peers.  I've seen many students from the school where I work who leave thinking they will be pre-med.  Those who drop out due to grades (several) OFTEN have selected a school where they were overmatched (easy to do from our high school :glare: ).  If they had gone to a less selective school they could very well have made it.  Those who have chosen schools where they are in the top of the top have often done quite well no matter if that school is very selective or less selective).

 

In the meantime, check colleges with med schools around you and see if they have any special "pre-med" days.  We went to three of these (different schools), but all were in the summer.  On these days the schools had their med school admissions folks presenting info to future pre-med wannabes (and their parents).  They also had question and answer sessions.  By the third one we realized we were hearing the same thing over and over (more or less) so felt we had a good handle on what we needed.  You appear to have time to try to hit one (or more) of these next summer if you want to hear things directly from the schools yourself.  I recommend it.

 

[daijobu]

So Dd13 is leaning more and more towards a medical career. She ordered information from a couple of colleges she is interested in that have Pre-Med. So, I will admit I have no idea what I am doing in this regards!! Here is where she is now, Math she will be taking Algebra 1 8th grade and Apologia Physical Science with alot of living books and reference books added in. So, can you please help me map out her high school years to get the most out of them? We do plan to have her dual enroll in 11th and 12th. I am just not sure what courses to have her take to make sure she is ready. She also took Abeka's Biology course in 7th grade but will do another Biology in high school as AP (I am leaning towards BJU).

 

FYI, you don't necessarily need to major in pre-med to attend medical school.  I might argue that your chances are improved if you do not.  She should major in a topic that interests her, and one in which she would earn high grades.  

 

Make sure she takes as many advanced science and math courses as she can before college.  In particular, I would definitely have her take AP or honors level chemistry.  Freshman year of college is NOT the time to be taking chemistry for the first time!  

 

It's still early, so just make sure she is taking challenging, high-quality science and math classes in high school.  The real time to worry about med school admissions is in college.  Good luck!  

[8filltheheart]

Just one other thought.   A major other than pre-med is sometimes a better decision.   She could even major in something like chemical engineering or biomedical engineering. ;)    Also, shadowing hrs during high school/college are going to be important.   Some universities have an acceptance into a specific honors program that leads to guaranteed acceptance into their medical school.   Most of those programs are highly competitive and shadowing hrs during high school are vital for acceptance.

[8filltheheart]

FYI, you don't necessarily need to major in pre-med to attend medical school.  I might argue that your chances are improved if you do not.  She should major in a topic that interests her, and one in which she would earn high grades.  

 

Make sure she takes as many advanced science and math courses as she can before college.  In particular, I would definitely have her take AP or honors level chemistry.  Freshman year of college is NOT the time to be taking chemistry for the first time!  

 

It's still early, so just make sure she is taking challenging, high-quality science and math classes in high school.  The real time to worry about med school admissions is in college.  Good luck!  

 

You and I had similar thoughts and typing at the same time.   I agree!

 

[thowell]

Just one other thought.   A major other than pre-med is sometimes a better decision.   She could even major in something like chemical engineering or biomedical engineering. ;)    Also, shadowing hrs during high school/college are going to be important.   Some universities have an acceptance into a specific honors program that leads to guaranteed acceptance into their medical school.   Most of those programs are highly competitive and shadowing hrs during high school are vital for acceptance.

 

I m confused by this. You and the other poster said the same thing. Why would she pick a different major if she knows she wants to do med school? What are the advantages to this?

 

[thowell]

Ah, the joys of prepping for pre-med.  BTDT, so far, quite successfully.  At this point, whether he'll get into med school or not will totally depend upon him and the rest of his college days... he's at a good school and has a good start!

 

But for prep?

 

Yes, it's recommended that one stay away from any pre-req courses at community colleges if heading into college knowing one wants to be pre-med (different rules for those who decide later).  It will not kill your app, but it will be a nick against it according to ALL med school admissions folks we listened to.  AP does not do the same.  Taking courses at a cc is not a problem, but do realize ALL grades will count toward your GPA and sGPA (science and math classes).  It's only taking the pre-reqs there that is frowned upon due to the perception that such courses are easier.  In reality?  They definitely are easier when I've been comparing them to upper level schools.  They are more equivalent to state schools and less selective 4 year schools.  (I've been comparing via students from my high school who have gone on to colleges, then returned - comparing Bio, Chem, and Calc.  For Bio, youngest son has also taken cc Bio here and sat in on classes elsewhere during a couple of college visits.  He'll be comparing more in the fall.  He's not pre-med so having cc Bio credits is not a problem for him.)

 

My pre-med guy found it helpful to have AP level Bio, Chem, and Calc his senior year of high school so it was fresh when he took those classes at his 4 year school (a higher level school, so he started in 101 courses that were all well above AP level - Calc was the closest).  Since he was ahead in math, he opted to take Stats his junior year to take Calc his senior year.  He also took Anatomy and Physiology his senior year (with Apologia) and said that was incredibly helpful too (more for his Brain and Cognitive Science class than Bio).

 

Science - his schedule was heavy on this and he regrets none of it:

 

9th Apologia Bio

10th Apologia Chem

11th + 12th (split over two years) AP level Bio + Chem, Bio using Campbell's, Chem using Apologia's book 2 - I'd use Zumdahl in hindsight (did not take AP tests as did not want credit).

11th Microbio (DE class at cc - ok to have since it's not a pre-req science class)

12th A & P using Apologia, Physics (both books) using Apologia

 

Math:

 

9th Alg 2

10th Pre-Calc

11th AP level Stats (did accept credit for his 5 in this)

12th AP level (BC) Calc (did not take test as didn't want credit)

 

Also did AP level Psych (did accept credits for his 5) and I'd recommend putting that in as the MCAT and med schools are moving toward wanting more things like it even though they aren't pre-reqs at this point.

 

Some states are easier to get into med school than others due to having state schools that are specifically for students coming from that state.  Many of these can be more lenient in what they want or will overlook (like cc pre-reqs perhaps).  We designed our "start" to fit in with any med school including those in the Top 10 for rankings - hence - we shied away from any nicks going in.  Even the state med school program we listened to here frowned upon pre-reqs from cc.  It could be different in other states (we're in PA).

 

As to whether or not you should accept AP credit for Bio or Chem (Calc tends to be ok if you want it), my current suggestion is to check with the undergrad institution your student will be attending.  At some schools the Bio/Chem courses are identical to AP material so the only reason to do it over is to get an easy A (NOT really a bad thing for pre-med, but can be boring).  At other schools they assume practically all the students coming in have had Bio/Chem at the AP level and the intro course assumes that knowledge, then delves much deeper.  This is the case where middle son is.  Anyone coming in without that knowledge has far more to learn in the same amount of time - something I consider a disadvantage.  If you accept AP credit, note that many (not all) med schools will not and will want to see higher level courses completed at the 4 year school in Bio/Chem even if not needed for your major.

 

It is NOT required that one attend a top school to get into med school.  Choose an undergrad based upon fit, but then do very well at it.  I definitely recommend choosing a school where your student is in the top 25% of stats going in.  This guarantees nothing as the score doesn't show work ethic, but it does tend to show they have a good foundation compared to their peers.  I've seen many students from the school where I work who leave thinking they will be pre-med.  Those who drop out due to grades (several) OFTEN have selected a school where they were overmatched (easy to do from our high school :glare: ).  If they had gone to a less selective school they could very well have made it.  Those who have chosen schools where they are in the top of the top have often done quite well no matter if that school is very selective or less selective).

 

In the meantime, check colleges with med schools around you and see if they have any special "pre-med" days.  We went to three of these (different schools), but all were in the summer.  On these days the schools had their med school admissions folks presenting info to future pre-med wannabes (and their parents).  They also had question and answer sessions.  By the third one we realized we were hearing the same thing over and over (more or less) so felt we had a good handle on what we needed.  You appear to have time to try to hit one (or more) of these next summer if you want to hear things directly from the schools yourself.  I recommend it.

 

Ok so if I am wrapping my brain around all this correctly, you are basically saying she should not take the prereqs. for pre med in dual enrollment and not to take the AP credit for these either. Instead use her AP credits or dual enrollment for things tht are not specifically prereqs?? Is this correct?? So, if this is correct, can you give me a quick list of some of the subjects she might consider taking as dual enrollment or AP credits?

 

 

[regentrude]

I m confused by this. You and the other poster said the same thing. Why would she pick a different major if she knows she wants to do med school? What are the advantages to this?

 

 

Because it makes the student stand out from the crowd. If 95% of the applicants have the same track record of majoring in biology or premed, the student with the unusual degree will be more noticeable. A premed or bio undergrad is not a prerequisite.

It also gives the student a unique background with skills that may be very useful in their further career. A student interested in radiology will greatly benefit from physics and math background for example.

 

One of the students in my department double majors in physics and math with minors in chemistry and French, and his ultimate goal is to be a doctor. His med school application will stand out in the sea of life science majors.

[Julie in MN]

Because it makes the student stand out from the crowd. If 95% of the applicants have the same track record of majoring in biology or premed, the student with the unusual degree will be more noticeable. A premed or bio undergrad is not a prerequisite.

It also gives the student a unique background with skills that may be very useful in their further career. A student interested in radiology will greatly benefit from physics and math background for example.

 

My son interviewed a lot of working medical personnel about careers and this was what he heard, too. 

 

Another thing he heard is that it's hard to get a job with a Biology degree, because so MANY college students major in Biology, hoping to go to med school, and either aren't accepted or decide not to move forward, so they are all out in the job market looking for jobs with their Biology degrees.

 

Julie

[creekland]

I m confused by this. You and the other poster said the same thing. Why would she pick a different major if she knows she wants to do med school? What are the advantages to this?

 

Actually, you can't major in pre-med itself except at a small handful of colleges.  Instead, what you are likely seeing on those "sent to the home flyers" is pre-med advising.  One can get to med school from practically any college (just be sure they have an accepted accreditation - the vast, vast majority do - it tends to be newer colleges and some super strict religious colleges that do not).  The higher the selectivity the school the more they seem to turn out med students, but that's mainly because they had all talented students coming in and med school is a popular path in today's age (moreso than even 20 years ago).  But almost all schools will have top stat students and almost all send students to med school every single year.  Kids from our school have even gone to schools that didn't make Forbes most recent Top 650 list and they still get into med schools if they have what it takes.

 

Contrary to popular belief, majoring in Bio is not a problem as far as med school is concerned.  The statistics of acceptance aligned with equal GPA and MCAT is not really significant.  More apply with lower grades/MCAT, so that can make it seem skewed.  It's always recommended that one choose a major the student likes - ANY major (except perhaps Business or Nutrition, etc according to some - "working" majors like those do seem to be discriminated against - Engineering is just fine).  Why ANY major you like?  Because you are likely to do better in something you like and being at the top is the goal.  You don't learn what you need to know to become a doctor in undergrad.  They teach you that in med school.  The pre-reqs are there because they want you to have basic info and they want to see how you compete against your peers (another reason they don't like to see those skipped).  They want the best "talent" out there for med school.  Incidentally, talent is not limited to academics.  They are going to want to see some sort of "life involvement" too (extra curriculars).  Those can set you apart more than what you chose to major in.

 

Ok so if I am wrapping my brain around all this correctly, you are basically saying she should not take the prereqs. for pre med in dual enrollment and not to take the AP credit for these either. Instead use her AP credits or dual enrollment for things tht are not specifically prereqs?? Is this correct?? So, if this is correct, can you give me a quick list of some of the subjects she might consider taking as dual enrollment or AP credits?      

AP credit will depend upon your undergrad school and potential desired med schools.  Definitely do AP level regardless of whether you accept the credit or not.  You'll want the solid foundation.  Freshman year of college is NOT the time to try to get that if you are heading pre-med.

 

Otherwise, yes, how about history or English (or other languages) or other electives?  My guy did three DE classes (English, Effective Speaking, and Microbiology).  His current undergrad does not grant credit for DE classes, so he ended up having them for just high school credit, but I'm ok with that.  Had he chosen a less selective school they'd have accepted his credits, but that wasn't our goal.  Those classes will still show up on his med school applications and will be factored into his GPA for that though, so it's good that he got As in all of them.  My guy also had two AP tests - Psychology and Statistics.  He does have college credit for those. (His college gives credit for AP, but not DE.)  He also did AP level with Chem, Bio, and Calc (BC).  He just skipped the test for those (to save money and time).  History would have been an option, but he took his high school history courses back in 8th and 9th grades... (World and American) and we didn't even think to do AP tests at that time.  He could have if we'd aimed that direction.

 

If you're thinking of cc for two years then transferring to a state school due to cost, the med school admissions folks recommend taking any class you can that isn't a pre-req, then saving your pre-req's for your junior and senior year at the 4 year school.  Senior year is tricky as you're already applying by then (sometimes), but apparently you can do some courses like Physics then without an issue.  I'm not sure how they'd work in Organic Chem.  You'd need to ask.  We never planned on that route ourselves.  I just remember them briefly talking about it when asked.

 

College confidential has a Pre-med forum that can be worth hanging around on to get a feel for the whole process.  If you feel really "strong" there's also SDN (Student Doctor Network) that has a wealth of info. Beware on both that there are some really strong competitors - esp on the latter.  You also need to sort through advice, because, like anywhere, it can vary.  I've only gone to 3 med school presentations.  While those 3 said the same thing, that doesn't mean ALL say the same thing - esp if there's an in state med school that caters to in state students without being in a high population state.  It is well worth it to go to actual presentations from those doing the deciding currently.  Even getting info from "your" doctor isn't likely to be valid as the process had changed a bit (gotten more difficult) since they went to med school.  The head of one of the Top 10 med schools told our group that he'd be lucky to be a janitor in the hospital if he had to get in now (by today's standards).  It's kind of sad when you think about how many potentially good doctors never get a chance, but on the other hand, I WANT my doctor to be top of the top and able to do quite a bit, so I'm sort of torn on it.  We resolved our feelings by saying, "it is what it is and if you want to be in the race, 'tis best to do it in a way they want to see."

 

My guy chose Brain & Cognitive Science as his major and will likely get a dual major or minor in American Sign Language and/or Spanish.  He's finished his freshman year of college doing superbly (has Bio, Chem, and Calc out of the way for pre-reqs) and is getting lab experience (working in two labs) this summer.  One will carry over into the school year.  Going in he wasn't sure if he wanted pre-med or research.  Now he's pretty certain he wants pre-med as he's seen the "horrors" out there with funding cuts into research, but research will still be his back up plan if he doesn't make it in to med school.  Less than 50% of applicants make it in...and almost all have good stats.  Even with top of the top stats, the odds are currently just at 90%.  One out of ten top of the top kids needs to use their backup plan.  It's best to have one.

[creekland]

These two links can prove useful.  The first is a written profile of U Rochester's med school class of 2015 showing many of the non GPA/MCAT stuff from the students they selected.

 

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/publications/rochester-medicine/summer-2011/online-specials/class-of-2015.cfm

 

The next is a bunch of real stats (GPA/MCAT and more) from which you can calculate acceptance rates, etc from the AAMC:

 

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/

[daijobu]

I m confused by this. You and the other poster said the same thing. Why would she pick a different major if she knows she wants to do med school? What are the advantages to this?

 

 

I'm going to answer this less eloquently than others.  

 

Majoring in pre-med just sounds icky to me.  Drone-like.  Lacks imagination.  UNLESS there is something else in that person's background that says otherwise.  Like they enjoy jumping out of airplanes.

 

English majors who love Shakespeare and will discuss sonnets for hours?  Very cool.

 

Math majors who will eagerly discuss their favorite theorems?  Very cool.

 

History majors who could write pages about their favorite president?  So cool.

 

Who do you want as a colleague?

[daijobu]

Ooh!  I have another idea, I wish someone had told me.  Get her a subscription to the New Yorker magazine.  Or pick up copies at the library.  Or read the NY Times online.  

 

These publications (and others) have many articles about medicine, health, public health policy, medical research, and all sorts of interesting controversies.  And lots of non-medical subjects.  If something interests her (even or especially if it's not medical), encourage her to learn more.  Do some research.  What professors at what universities are studying this issue?  Encourage her to become an expert.  When she lands at university, approach some of these professors and ask to help them in their research.  

 

This sort of intellectual curiosity, independent research, and expertise is highly valued in medicine.  On ANY subject.  Good luck!  

[creekland]

Here's a link showing major (fields), average MCAT scores of applicants and matriculates, and numbers of applications, etc:

 

https://www.aamc.org/download/321496/data/2012factstable18.pdf

 

Calculating the percentages the odds were:

 

Biology ------  42.1%, Mean successful MCAT 31.0, Mean sGPA 3.64, Mean GPA 3.69

Humanities -  50.4% Mean successful MCAT 31.8,  Mean sGPA 3.59, Mean GPA 3.66

Math/Stats -- 49.7% -------------------------------- 32.8, ----------------- 3.67,---------------- 3.68

Other --------- 41.0% -------------------------------- 31.0, ----------------- 3.62,---------------- 3.68

Physical Sci -48.4% -------------------------------- 32.4, ----------------- 3.65,---------------- 3.67

Social Sci---- 45.4% -------------------------------- 31.4 ------------------ 3.58,---------------- 3.64

Health Sci---- 33.0%-------------------------------- 29.6 ------------------ 3.62,---------------- 3.69

 

So yes, Bio tends to have a lower rate, but also lower scores on the MCAT...  All in all, I think the overall trend is that one wants > 31 on the MCAT and > 3.6 GPA and then some successful prayers (or vibes for those who don't care for prayers).  ;)  But remember, these are means.  If one gets a lower score, they can still try as long as you pick an undergrad school that will support your effort.  MANY with high acceptance rates (approaching 100%) will NOT let those with lower stats - even these mean stats sometimes - apply as they don't want their high numbers to drop.  IF you are a borderline candidate, you'd be sunk.  It's better (IMO) to choose a school with a lower acceptance rate, but that doesn't stop students with lower stats from applying... High stats will still have good chances of being accepted.  Lower stats will have some chance (vs none if you can't apply).

[Candid]

I m confused by this. You and the other poster said the same thing. Why would she pick a different major if she knows she wants to do med school? What are the advantages to this?

 

 

Because med schools are looking for success but not necessarily cookie cutter med students. If you do a search at Google on "philosophy med school" you will turn up scads of information showing philosophy majors stand a better chance of getting into med school than do science majors. Here's a document that shows the breakdown: 

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CEAQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amsa.org%2FAMSA%2FLibraries%2FMisc_Docs%2FMajor_Anxiety.sflb.ashx&ei=Zw75UZXkEY7S8wS-14HADQ&usg=AFQjCNFcCogEKPXEOcD9UVTSV0B74v5qUA&sig2=e_AskeTcD4_e3eFNcug1Vg&bvm=bv.49967636,d.eWU

 

 

There's another problem with pure science majors as well, often the best students in those disciplines will be planning to major and go to graduate school. Those students can change the grading scale in a class to make it more difficult to achieve the high GPA a med school candidate needs. 

[creekland]

From the article you linked (dated stats, but still valid content), this sums up nicely what many of us have been trying to say:

 

 

So what does this mean to you? If you're at all interested in the humanities, then study them in college. Select one as your major, and do well in those classes. Take the minimum science requirements and apply to medical school. There is no compelling reason for you to jettison your personal interests for four years in science. Some may say that you'll have very little time and few opportunities to enjoy the humanities later as a physician, so make the most of it in college. These are wise words.

 

Conversely, if you are truly interested in the sciences, if running gels, titrating solutions and examining shark innards are your cat's meow, then by all means you should major in the sciences. The point is that you should study what you enjoy and do well in those courses. Whether it's philosophy, biology, mathematics, economics, music, art history, physics, or biochemistry, study what you like. No major provides better preparation for medical education or medicine than any other, and you should never selecta science major because of the assumption that it will give you an extra advantage in medical school or medical school admissions.

[ocelotmom]

You know, while I'm certainly not one to discount the possibility of having multiple interests, I have to question whether someone who wants a major in something totally unrelated is going into doctoring for the right reasons.

[regentrude]

You know, while I'm certainly not one to discount the possibility of having multiple interests, I have to question whether someone who wants a major in something totally unrelated is going into doctoring for the right reasons.

 

What, in your opinion, are "the right reasons"?

I can think of many different reasons to go into medicine. Wanting to do "good" is not the only one, nor is the the one that necessarily produces the most capable doctors.

[creekland]

You know, while I'm certainly not one to discount the possibility of having multiple interests, I have to question whether someone who wants a major in something totally unrelated is going into doctoring for the right reasons.

 

But an in depth major in Bio is no closer to med school academics than an in depth major in anything else.  Knowing the basics is important (hence the pre-med requirements).  Beyond that they teach you what you need to know in med school.  Everyone will be learning what they need to know for their job together.

 

In some countries (perhaps most countries) they don't even have an undergrad degree requirement.  The US has the philosophy of wanting doctors to be educated folks (overall - on some topic or another and the more well rounded the better) and then know their job.

 

[regentrude]

In some countries (perhaps most countries) they don't even have an undergrad degree requirement.  The US has the philosophy of wanting doctors to be educated folks (overall - on some topic or another and the more well rounded the better) and then know their job.

 

 

I have to comment on this:

It is not entirely fair to imply that countries where there is no separate undergrad requirement do not want their doctors to be educated and well rounded. In Germany, where medical students begin a specialized university program in medicine right out of high school, much of what passes for general requirements in US colleges is actually taught in high school. Any university student, irrespective of major, will have had calculus, all three core sciences, and two foreign languages in their college prep high school (and it works similarly in many other European countries). Requiring a separate undergrad degree is not the only way to have doctors be "educated folks".

[creekland]

Ok, so change "educated" to degreed... (esp since one can be "educated" without a degree IMO) but there is still a difference.  It in no way implies doctors in other countries are clueless about anything except their job, but it is different when a pre-med student here has to have completed 400 level classes in their degree (and done very well in them) rather than just having had the basics from high school or freshman year of college.

[ocelotmom]

What, in your opinion, are "the right reasons"?

I can think of many different reasons to go into medicine. Wanting to do "good" is not the only one, nor is the the one that necessarily produces the most capable doctors.

I'm not going to set limits on "right reasons", and I wouldn't necessarily consider wanting to do "good" to be the right reason.

 

And that's actually partially where I'm coming from. I don't know if it's the same for med school, but I see an awful lot of pre-nursing students who want to be a nurse to do "good" or because they're compassionate or simply because it's a relatively well-paying, stable job for the amount of education required, who say they HATE science and are slogging through the prerequisite science classes in order to get to their "real goal" who don't seem to have any realization that the science doesn't stop after the prerequisites! Maybe pre-med students are more realistic on this.

 

I would consider "because it's high status", "because it pays a lot", or "because mom and dad insist on it" (usually because it's high status and pays a lot, or at least is perceived to pay a lot) to be wrong reasons. Which isn't to say those people couldn't become good, competent doctors. 

 

But an in depth major in Bio is no closer to med school academics than an in depth major in anything else.  Knowing the basics is important (hence the pre-med requirements).  Beyond that they teach you what you need to know in med school.  Everyone will be learning what they need to know for their job together.

I agree with you about the Bio. I'm very glad they're accepting of students who don't take a strict science path. And I think that there are plenty of ways seemingly non-related degrees can be related. Philosophy - good for someone interested in ethical issues. Foreign language or ethnic studies - helpful for someone interested in working in areas with a large immigrant population or in a different country. Women's Studies - great for someone interested in Women's Health. Environmental studies - good for someone interested in researching the health effects of environmental toxins. Computer Science - medical technology needs medically educated people.

 

I also don't see anything wrong with "I love studying history/English/basketweaving/whatever, but there aren't many practical career paths from that, so I'll do that for undergrad and then go be a doctor which I'm also interested in."

 

But I think there's a difference between these and "do the bare minimum science while studying what you're truly interested in and good at (and/or whatever is a cakewalk to get the highest GPA possible)", which is what I was trying to get at. Maybe if they're truly interested in and good at something else and don't have a really strong personal desire to be a doctor, they should fully examine the options related to that thing that they do enjoy. And maybe they'll still decide they want to be a doctor, but at least it's an educated decision.

[creekland]

 

But I think there's a difference between these and "do the bare minimum science while studying what you're truly interested in and good at (and/or whatever is a cakewalk to get the highest GPA possible)", which is what I was trying to get at. Maybe if they're truly interested in and good at something else and don't have a really strong personal desire to be a doctor, they should fully examine the options related to that thing that they do enjoy. And maybe they'll still decide they want to be a doctor, but at least it's an educated decision.

 

I know from almost the time my guy decided he wanted to be a doctor (3rd grade) up to the present, oodles of people have been trying to talk him out of it.  There's a lot of schooling (years!) they say.  True, he says, but if it's fun it doesn't seem so long.  The future of medicine and doctors is likely to change quite a bit they say.  True, he says, but they'll still patch people up and help them.  There are many options in the health care world with better hours and working conditions they say.  True, he says, but he just isn't drawn to any of them (so far - it'll always be his decision).

 

There are more, but those are the most common ones I can think of right now.  I can't believe he's the only one getting those comments.  Even in the pre-med days we went to from the med schools the med school admissions folks all mentioned them too.

 

There may be a few who reach med school application time and are doing it merely because they can't find anything else to do and have the stats to get there, but I doubt it's the majority.  I also suspect med school interviews might weed out a fair number of them.  They could easily be the 10% of top of the top stat students who don't make it in, who knows?

 

So, my guy is on the path.  He did the prep in high school and did well.  He researched schools by type, etc, and found his fit.  He picked Brain and Cognitive Science as his major because he REALLY likes it and not due to any image of that major helping for med school.  He did very well freshman year easily proving himself (academic-wise) in the freshman weeder classes (still has OChem to go).  He's enjoying himself with extra curriculars at school (as he did here).  Where will it take him?  Time will tell.  ;)  I'm 100% ok with it if he changes his mind.  He fully knows that.  I'll support him if he doesn't make it in and goes to his backup plan.  But to have a chance to make it, there's this path to walk first...

 

NOTE:  There are other paths that work too if one decides later they are interested in med school.  But my guy has wanted it since 3rd grade... this is his path.

[snowbeltmom]

Ok so if I am wrapping my brain around all this correctly, you are basically saying she should not take the prereqs. for pre med in dual enrollment and not to take the AP credit for these either. Instead use her AP credits or dual enrollment for things tht are not specifically prereqs?? Is this correct?? So, if this is correct, can you give me a quick list of some of the subjects she might consider taking as dual enrollment or AP credits?

 

 

 

My son plans on majoring in biomedical engineering and then hopefully going on to medical school.  I have spent quite a bit of time researching multiple medical schools' AP credit policies in addition to the AP policies at my son's top three college choices. 

 

My son has AP credit in the sciences and calculus with plan to take some of the AP's in the humanities the next two years.  The recommended sequence of study for biomedical engineering at all three of his top choices involve using his AP credits, either to skip the intro level all together or to take a more advanced intro level course.

 

Imo, I would have your dd take the AP exams in any classes that she studies at the AP level.  Not only will AP scores help strengthen her transcript, but it will provide her with more options once she enters college.

[LMV]

Our seventeen year old has been working out the nuts and bolts of her freshman schedule for the fall.  She plans to major in molecular biology and is strongly considering pursuing medical school in the future but could end up going the straight PhD route.  She is using her AP credit for Physics, Chemistry, and Calc AB/BC, and to meet her language requirements. She also got a 5 on Biology AP exam but her university of choice doesn't offer credit for biology or any of the humanities exams  She is essentially starting off with sophomore standing but will likely spread her remaining three years out over four.  This should give her time for D1 athletics and to pursue a rigorous undergraduate research project. I think the concern about using AP credit for medical school prerequisites is more of a concern if the student doesn't go on and take more advanced coursework beyond these courses at their degree conferring institution.  I think students who do this won't face any greater hurdles to medical school than if they just went back and took the courses they could have placed out of with their AP credit. 

[creekland]

 I think the concern about using AP credit for medical school prerequisites is more of a concern if the student doesn't go on and take more advanced coursework beyond these courses at their degree conferring institution.  

The concern is also whether skipping the intro classes will leave the student as well prepared as their peers in those more advanced classes.  At colleges where the intro class is the same as AP, it shouldn't be a problem.  At schools where they assume all have had AP level and go deeper, the student who skips the class will be at a disadvantage.  IMO, it's wise to ask professors in the department if the school itself doesn't have a policy about it.

[at the beach]

I also think if you take an AP level course, it is wise to take the exam. You do not have to accept the credit, but it is outside objective validation. I have noticed some med schools allow you to fulfill prerequisites for Physics or math with AP scores. Of course, taking an AP exam involves prep and stress, so YMMV. As far as the dual enrollment thing, we made the decision to do what is best now without worrying about years from now, so cc science is on the agenda this year.

[creekland]

I also think if you take an AP level course, it is wise to take the exam. You do not have to accept the credit, but it is outside objective validation.

This depends upon the school.  I had an online conversation with one person (was it on here?) who said their school was forcing them to accept the credit and move into a higher course.  When that is the case with a school it's likely that the courses repeat, but it still wasn't optional to accept the credit or not.  Therefore, when we knew we didn't want credit, my guy didn't take the test - not an issue at that point.  After attending the med school days we decided we wanted to opt for everything on the safe side, esp since choosing a more selective school.  If he'd been heading to a school well below his capability (for financial reasons or whatever) we may have opted otherwise.

[creekland]

 As far as the dual enrollment thing, we made the decision to do what is best now without worrying about years from now, so cc science is on the agenda this year.

As far as I know, the cc science thing is only related to pre-med (maybe pre-vet and pre-dental).  My youngest did cc Bio with no regrets, though may retake Bio at his 4 year school since cc Bio (to him) was "Bio-lite."  It will depend upon his choice of 4 year school and what professors advise.  He wants Tropical Bio as his major, so we'll make that decision then.  Med school is definitely not on his horizon.

[snowbeltmom]

  Therefore, when we knew we didn't want credit, my guy didn't take the test - not an issue at that point.  

 

Creekland, was your son studying at the AP level in 12th grade?  If so, that would make sense that he wouldn't bother with the AP exams since he didn't want credit and the AP exam results would not be available until way after admission decisions had been made.

 

Imo, I would be concerned about stating on the transcript that a course was studied at the AP level prior to 12th grade and then not take the corresponding AP exam to validate the class.  I would think an admissions officer would wonder why an AP score was also not listed on the transcript in this situation.  (Obviously, if the student was not able to find a school willing to let him take the AP exams that would be a different situation and easy to explain to admissions.)

 

If a student knew that he didn't want to take the AP credit and he was afraid that a college would force him to take the credit (I wonder what college that was?) the student could simply refuse to send in the official score report.

[mamajudy]

While it is true that one can go to Med school with any undergraduate major, there should be sufficient science taken in college to score well on the MCAT. A university with a "pre-med" program will advise the student to take the necessary courses in time to take the MCAT and score well. When my DD was in undergrad, she took a neat class for pre-med students in which she shadowed physicians in various specialties each week. This was the class which convinced her to go to Med school instead of veterinary school. She also volunteered at a local hospital, worked in a research lab, and did an internship at an animal hospital while in college. These things, along with high test scores and GPA, enabled her to gain acceptance to several medical schools and ultimately graduate from Med school at the top of her class.

 

The op's DD is only 13 years old, so there's plenty of time to provide a good, solid high school education. Perhaps she can add some volunteer work in her area of interest to really get a feel for it. Who knows? Maybe she'll decide that medicine is not for her. On the other hand, some hands-on experience may confirm her goals. Good luck to her!

[creekland]

Creekland, was your son studying at the AP level in 12th grade?  If so, that would make sense that he wouldn't bother with the AP exams since he didn't want credit and the AP exam results would not be available until way after admission decisions had been made.

 

Yes, we designed it that he finished the pre-req course AP classes his senior year (Bio, Chem, Calc) in order to have the info as fresh as possible before the weeder courses (even though the weeder courses went much deeper, it was still helpful to have the foundation fresh).  His admissions choice had been made at that point.

 

None of our classes were listed as AP as I didn't get syllabi approved.  We merely listed test scores where he had them for his applications.  It didn't seem to cause any problems. 

[at the beach]

This depends upon the school. I had an online conversation with one person (was it on here?) who said their school was forcing them to accept the credit and move into a higher course. When that is the case with a school it's likely that the courses repeat, but it still wasn't optional to accept the credit or not. Therefore, when we knew we didn't want credit, my guy didn't take the test - not an issue at that point. After attending the med school days we decided we wanted to opt for everything on the safe side, esp since choosing a more selective school. If he'd been heading to a school well below his capability (for financial reasons or whatever) we may have opted otherwise.

I have never heard of a college forcing someone to take credit. Thanks for pointing that out. Do you know which colleges will do this? I have heard that some top tier schools want scores sent because they take those into account in admissions. I guess the best policy is to check with schools a child might be applying to. Also, not sure if I missed it in a post, but I wonder if you could share what med school days you visited? Thanks!:)

[creekland]

I do not remember the college, but it surprised me as much as anyone else as I had never heard of it happening before.

 

Med school "days":

 

WUSTL (at WUSTL)

Pitt (at Pitt)

Hershey (associated with Penn St, but has agreements with other colleges in the state - we went via Franklin&Marshall, though had already decided we were not actually considering F&M due to their dropping merit aid)

 

He may opt for any of the above for med school apps (or others).  We were impressed with all of them MAYBE picking Pitt as our favorite, but that was just due to the one day.  He'd have to do a bit more extensive research when he knows what he'd like and where his stats might fit in, of course.  Incidentally, none show you the med school itself.  They bring med school doctors and admissions folks in (to the undergrad school) to give presentations and answer questions.

[LMV]

The concern is also whether skipping the intro classes will leave the student as well prepared as their peers in those more advanced classes.  At colleges where the intro class is the same as AP, it shouldn't be a problem.  At schools where they assume all have had AP level and go deeper, the student who skips the class will be at a disadvantage.  IMO, it's wise to ask professors in the department if the school itself doesn't have a policy about it.

 

This can be true and I suppose I do worry a little about this because our daughter's university of choice is challenging and rigorous [but she truly believes a good fit for her personality and goals and her dad and I trust her to make this decision] so I would expect their introductory chemistry and physics courses to be challenging.  Due to scheduling issues, she is also embarking on her major core sequence in her freshman year perhaps with less background than she needs. Her faculty adviser feels that she will be fine.   She is planning to re-evaluate after a few weeks of classes where she really is and if she needs to drop some courses and pursue them later in her educational adventure.  I think she has the maturity to make a good assessment of this so her dad and I are stepping back and letting her do this.

[kroe1]

Coming from a long line of physicians and soon getting this last kiddo ready for med school, here is what has worked for us:

 

1. First and foremost, make oneself stand out in the crowd. During the high school years, focus on this more than sciences. Become a concert pianist, professional ballroom dancer, start a business, or whatever it takes to make yourself unique.

 

2. Do more than anyone else's fair share of volunteer work. Make it interesting and unique. For example, spend the summer gathering bear scat for a researcher.

 

3. High school courses really do not matter much unless they help one make an "A" in a later college course. High school grades, SAT scores, etc. also do not matter. To get considered for med school, the primary consideration is the MCAT and college GPA.

 

4. Build potential contacts for reference letters. Build way more than one needs because people who say they will write letters will not sometimes.

 

5. Think twice about dual enrollment for 2 reasons. If the high school kiddo is not mature enough to make an "A" in a dual enrollment class, this could kill his chance for med school. No matter what the school publishes, most kiddos come into med school with a 3.98 college GPA or higher. I haven't known anyone with less than a 3.7 in many years who made it. Make sure the kiddo is ready to buckle down and study for his life. Second, community colleges are really frowned upon. Remember, one is competing with older 4 year college graduates with 4.0 GPAs. One may have a 4.0, but if half the hours are community college, it will hurt.

 

6. Do not fret over which 4 year college a kiddo chooses. It is the GPA that matters, not the school. While a Harvard 3.6 GPA may seem better than. 3.9 at Arkansas State, it is not. The 3.9 will be placed higher in the stack of applications.

 

7. Move now to the state one wants to go to med school. State residents are given more consideration than out of state. This is because it is perceived that one will remain in the same state and practice, rather than returning home to another state.

 

HTH

 

The take home message should be: high school does not matter, college GPA and MCAT scores are EVERYTHING, and stand out from the crowd.

 

Note: My own son is a high school dropout. He later became chief resident of all residencies at a prestigious hospital before settling in his current life of ER physician.

[creekland]

My opinion is there is more than one way to reach a goal. I had my daughter who is considering medicine interview her cousin who is a doctor and her Aunt who is a nurse. Each gave her various options in obtaining her goal.

 

 

For nursing this is perfectly fine. Middle son did his microbio class with students who were headed to nursing.  They all have jobs now.    He's starting his sophomore year in undergrad (he was a junior in high school when he did the class).  He gets together with some who were his lab partners and in his study group each time he comes home.  Nursing still has jobs and cc is perfectly fine.

 

But... when we went to med school admissions days... ALL said not to take advice from doctors who were already in the practice as admissions has changed and become much tougher now.  One showed a graph from over the years showing #applicants compared to #spots and acceptance rates.  He pointed to his year (higher acceptance rate) and said he's positive he wouldn't have a chance to get in now (well, two years ago). Now he's on the admissions committee (and in a position of authority at the hospital), so he's done well, but the competition to get in can be fierce.  It's not the same as even 15 - 20 years ago.

 

There is more than one path though, esp if one decides upon medicine later in life. But there's definitely a recommended path for those who know they want medicine from the start.  CC - esp pre-req courses in cc - is not it.  There's no problem at all if your student pursues that path, but I sure wouldn't be recommending it to others - esp if your only substance behind it is interviewing others already in the field rather than doing current research.

 

This is a great resource thread for anyone looking:

 

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/1486654-premed-resources-thread-start-here-first.html

[kroe1]

I'm just a bubble of positivity and realize that someone else's 'No' doesn't stop my kid or me from finding our own way to 'Yes'. Therefore, I don't see how any medical program would turn away a student that consistently showed success whether it is in a Community College turned to a 4yr university who has gained working experience and personal references as well as research experience. Not to mention consistent medical exposure to terms, environment and experience which places that said student in a much more well-rounded light. Also, since there are so many other students opting not to go that way - hum, maybe that one student will stick out. There is no magic formula, there are conventional ways, and that 1 doctor only spoke for the admissions board of 1 school.l :-D

 

Unfortunately, it is what it is. At most schools, one is more likely to get into med school with an undergraduate degree in economics than biology. This is probably because a high GPA in economics is more likely to be coming from someone more unique than the typical cookie-cutter biology student. Nursing is least likely to get one into medical school. Go figure.

[flyingiguana]

fwiw -- I've never heard this injunction against cc science classes anywhere but on this board.  I wonder if it was peculiar to a few schools.  Or in states where the cc's are just plain terrible.

 

In our neck of the woods, all kinds of kids are taking cc courses, transferring them into a 4 year university, then going on to grad/med school.  I've never heard of anyone batting an eye at it.  AP credit may be different -- it is true that an AP course may not have covered as much material in as much depth as a solid college course.  However, any student that can use the AP to place out of the intro classes and still go on to do well in the higher level classes shouldn't look too much like a loser. 

 

I would CHECK with the potential med schools to see what they say about this.  Don't depend on what is said here.

 

Even if it is true, I'm guessing it will likely be changing due to more and more kids doing their first 2 years at a cc before transferring to the expensive 4 year college.

 

Also, I know someone who NEVER took a science course in college who got into med school.  She did go back and do a catch up, "take all the science and math you missed" year which was officially sanctioned by the med school she wanted to get into.  Just mentioning to point out that it is possible to recover even if the med school won't accept AP scores or whatever. 

 

However, to repeat, I would CHECK WITH THE SCHOOL.  Even the college your daughter wants to attend will likely have information about what med schools will be looking for.  A good school will notice if their grads are being denied med school for particular reasons. 

 

Depending on what was the norm ten years before your daughter gets to college may not be very reliable.  And I'm guessing that getting into med school is not all grades, test scores, and being the best concert pianist.  Admissions committees are also looking for passion and compassion.  If your daughter has done volunteer work in the field of medicine and can still say she really likes it and wants to continue with it, that will be a big plus.  For college admissions in general, kids who have seen the problems in the world and have a passion to go out and work in one of those areas are really attractive.  I'm not talking about kids who spent a week on vacation putting up a school somewhere.  I'm talking about kids who can talk intelligently about what the issues are in their own communities, who have some genuine volunteer experience under their belts working with those communities. 

[creekland]

 

I would CHECK with the potential med schools to see what they say about this.  Don't depend on what is said here.

 

 

This is advice I highly recommend as well.  It's really the only "true" advice as these are the folks doing the admitting.  It's why we went to listen to these folks when we were gleaning advice.  ;)

 

And again, yes, students can get into med school post bacc.  They have different "rules." 

[Candid]

I'm just a bubble of positivity and realize that someone else's 'No' doesn't stop my kid or me from finding our own way to 'Yes'. Therefore, I don't see how any medical program would turn away a student that consistently showed success whether it is in a Community College turned to a 4yr university who has gained working experience and personal references as well as research experience. Not to mention consistent medical exposure to terms, environment and experience which places that said student in a much more well-rounded light. Also, since there are so many other students opting not to go that way - hum, maybe that one student will stick out. There is no magic formula, there are conventional ways, and that 1 doctor only spoke for the admissions board of 1 school.

 

There is nothing wrong with gaining an inside entry to the field you wish to pursue where you will have the opportunity to meet and be mentored. It's not a typical way, but we homeschooling parents aren't typical :-D

 

It's easy to turn down students who consistently show success in a community college when you are also going to be forced by the numbers and quality of applicants to turn down students who have consistently shown success at top ranked universities. 

 

It is possible the real world experience might offset that, except you don't hear anyone talking about that which means that it probably doesn't. 

[Julie in MN]

fwiw -- I've never heard this injunction against cc science classes anywhere but on this board.  I wonder if it was peculiar to a few schools.  Or in states where the cc's are just plain terrible.

Here's a quote from the Denver School of Medicine.

"Can I take my prerequisite courses at a Community College?

On occasion, applicants who graduated from college and had not initially chosen medicine as a career during their undergraduate years will take a small number of their prerequisites at the local community college. However, part of the overall assessment of each candidate includes the "strength of the science background" taken. If some of the science prerequisites are taken at the community college, these should be coupled with outstanding MCAT scores."

 

However, they say they receive over 4,500 applications for 160 positions, with 600 interviews granted.  I have to think that it would be hard to compete with community college in the sciences, unless the student really stood out in other ways.

 

 

 

Here's a quote from the University of Minnesota School of Medicine:

"Can I take some of the prerequisites at a community college?

Yes, you can take some but not all of the prerequisites at a community college. Some of the prerequisites call for upper level courses which can only be fulfilled at a four-year institution."

 

This year the U of M only admitted 170 students out of a pool of 3,669.

 

[creekland]

However, they say they receive over 4,500 applications for 160 positions, with 600 interviews granted.  I have to think that it would be hard to compete with community college in the sciences, unless the student really stood out in other ways.

 

This was it for us.  No one from the 3 sessions we went to said, "No, it can't be done," but all openly discouraged it.  We saw no reason to try to buck the odds and be that one special candidate when taking the pre-reqs at a 4 year school was easily do-able.  A super high MCAT with pre-reqs from a 4 year won't hurt - esp when the MCAT is coupled with As. ;)

 

There are many out there vying for the spots.  We opted to do things the preferred way.

 

But to each our own.