Did you have the S*# talk with your teenager?

[albeto.]

No, but it's not as though the only influences in a person's life come from organisations either. Bullying for being frigid has rather an impact on someone's person when it is dished up regularly from peers. For years on end.

 

I agree with you that bullying is lamentable. I agree with you that someone's sexual behavior should never be the fodder for ridicule, whether that behavior is more active or purposefully waits until marriage. I agree with you that peer pressure makes a huge difference in the development of one's sense of identity. What I'm saying doesn't disagree with any of these things. What I'm saying is that there is a particular methodology that starts with teaching a child that virginity = purity = value, and further, this can, and does, lead to shaming people for being sexually active ("slut-shaming"). I know of no institute that teaches children the value of constant sexual behavior. I know of no church, youth group, or school district that adopts a program to inspire children to be sexually active, and to avoid virginity. I know of no federal funding that pays for programs and speakers to teach children and reinforce to women that to remain a virgin is shameful, and dangerous, and ultimately "gives" themselves away like old chewing gum. If there were, and that came up, I would be similarly opposed to that.

 

 

 

I'm not altogether sure about that, but whether it is a natural connection or not is a little hard to test. I had a friend who was ready to go on the war path when she thought my boyf was pressuring me. And this was when we were 22. You'd think a sex goddess type would be last in line for caring about someone's virginity, so perhaps it is something some people naturally value. I was brought up with the no sex before marriage thing, wasn't given a reason other than "God said so," so when that reason lost validity, I wasn't left with any other reason. My boyfriend told me it didn't matter, and since I had no other information, I accepted that. It turns out that *for me* that was incorrect. Hence my thoughts that it may depend on personality. Apparently it wasn't important to him. *shrug*

 

Your personal experience notwithstanding, looking to teens and young adults in Europe will offer insight into how virginity is no longer equated with intrinsic personal value. It simply isn't taught, it isn't reinforced, it isn't an issue. It should come as no surprise to see young adults in Europe no longer identify as religious, the greatest influence supporting this correlation. 

[albeto.]

I think teaching one's own kid to wait for marriage

and to not have sex while still a child

is NOT slut-shaming.

 

No doubt. That people have decided it does is illustrative of poor reading comprehension skills. I wouldn't be too bothered by that except this is a discussion that involves primary educators, and that does bother me. It also makes it difficult to have a logical discussion. 

[I.Dup.]

I agree.  I've learned so many new terms from my years on this board :p  And I've learned that there are issues in our society that are so pervasive, but I've never encountered them.  I guess I've lived under a rock for 51 years :)  (Should I mention that I was secretary to a  FNP who also was a certified sex therapist? LOL!  I've heard just about everything)

 

What *is* pervasive in our society is Hollywood, music, peers who push a sexual agenda on our kids at ages far too young for them to understand or deal with.  The most popular TV shows today show that a healthy sex appetite is normal and appropriate.  Someone who does not engage in sex frequently and with many partners is shown to be frigid or...OMG! religious!!!  Horrors!  That poor person had a religious upbringing that did not allow for the "natural" tendencies and must have been "shamed" into that behavior.  It could not be that the person has made a decision not to engage for whatever reason (and whose business is it anyway *why* she chose not to engage?).  People prize many things - virginity, youth, health, rigorous academics, shoes, hair, the list is endless.  I could make a case that the mayor of NY prizes "thinness" due to his public policy eliminating the option for purchasing large sodas - is that not "obese-shaming"?  

 

Perhaps those advocating against "slut-shaming" should enlarge their platform to include "obesity-shaming", "non-nursing mothers shaming", "non-natural childbirth-shaming", "naturally grey hair shaming", "ddisposable diaper users shaming" etc.  For every action there is an opposite action (reaction) - Fat/thin; nursing/bottle feeding, etc. and there are proponents of each.  Being a proponent of one side does not mean that the other side must be doing something wrong or is suppressing natural traits.  It means that they have made an educated decision (which separates us from the animals)  to do something different from what you've decided to do.  But human nature doesn't like that.  It makes us question our own decisions when we see others do something different.  And you react and conclude that someone must be doing something horrible (bullying) to induce such decisions because it isn't the same decision you came to.

 

Great points here.

 

And I really think, as annoying as many of you may think them/us, the pro-virginity proponents really don't have some sinister patriarchal plan going on to control our kids. We are just going from our own past experiences and truly want what is best for them.

 

Just as I may think the militant pro-cloth diaper, non-circ'ing, or whatever else parents may be obnoxious because those things are a non issue for *me*, I try to keep in mind that they are also doing what they feel is best for their kids.

 

[albeto.]

People prize many things - virginity, youth, health, rigorous academics, shoes, hair, the list is endless.  I could make a case that the mayor of NY prizes "thinness" due to his public policy eliminating the option for purchasing large sodas - is that not "obese-shaming"?

 

Obesity shaming is a good example. Your "Hollywood makes all religious people look like they've been shamed into being religious" is not. There are actual examples of the obesity-shaming concept. Whether or not that argument would be well supported and persuasive is an interesting idea to ponder, and would probably make for an interesting discussion (if it hasn't already been explored).

 

Perhaps those advocating against "slut-shaming" should enlarge their platform to include "obesity-shaming", "non-nursing mothers shaming", "non-natural childbirth-shaming", "naturally grey hair shaming", "ddisposable diaper users shaming" etc.  For every action there is an opposite action (reaction) - Fat/thin; nursing/bottle feeding, etc. and there are proponents of each.  Being a proponent of one side does not mean that the other side must be doing something wrong or is suppressing natural traits.  It means that they have made an educated decision (which separates us from the animals)  to do something different from what you've decided to do.

The "platform" that addresses slut-shaming does so in reaction to one particular, arguably destructive, teaching.  It is not only ineffective, it's promotes teachings that are shown to be counter-effective. It also regulates manipulation of young adults in such a way that many find unethical and inappropriate. 

 

Nursing and diapers aren't related to this, so it should come as no surprise that people advocating the idea that sexuality doesn't equate to value don't take the same time to advocate baby care. Your premise that abstinence only sex education is "an educated decision" has been shown to be ineffective and therefore untrue. Ignorance is not education, but that is a separate issue from the one I'm actually talking about.

 

[Marylou]

Great points here.

 

And I really think, as annoying as many of you may think them/us, the pro-virginity proponents really don't have some sinister patriarchal plan going on to control our kids. We are just going from our own past experiences and truly want what is best for them.

 

Just as I may think the militant pro-cloth diaper, non-circ'ing, or whatever else parents may be obnoxious because those things are a non issue for *me*, I try to keep in mind that they are also doing what they feel is best for their kids.

 

But if you're a religious person, and you teach your children accordingly you are a "child abuser"  [see The God Delusion chapter 9].

[Miss Marple]

Obesity shaming is a good example. Your "Hollywood makes all religious people look like they've been shamed into being religious" is not. There are actual examples of the obesity-shaming concept. Whether or not that argument would be well supported and persuasive is an interesting idea to ponder, and would probably make for an interesting discussion (if it hasn't already been explored).

 

 

The "platform" that addresses slut-shaming does so in reaction to one particular, arguably destructive, teaching.  It is not only ineffective, it's promotes teachings that are shown to be counter-effective. It also regulates manipulation of young adults in such a way that many find unethical and inappropriate. 

 

Nursing and diapers aren't related to this, so it should come as no surprise that people advocating the idea that sexuality doesn't equate to value don't take the same time to advocate baby care. Your premise that abstinence only sex education is "an educated decision" has been shown to be ineffective and therefore untrue. Ignorance is not education, but that is a separate issue from the one I'm actually talking about.

 

Abstinence education is back in the headlines, prompted by a new study that shows such intervention can reduce teen sexual activity in the long term. The study, conducted by researchers at the University of Pennsylvania, appeared in this month’s issue of the medical journal Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, a publication of the American Medical Association.It found that, two years after receiving an eight-hour abstinence-only intervention, middle school participants were a third less likely to initiate sexual activity, compared to peers who attended a non-sex-ed health class instead.  Moreover, although the abstinence-only intervention did not teach contraception, sexually active participants were no less likely to use contraception. In contrast, sex-ed programs that taught contraception only (i.e., safe sex) or a combination of abstinence and contraception (i.e., comprehensive) did not delay sexual initiation or increase contraceptive use.

You keep throwing out statements as if they are truths/facts.  For each of those I can find opposing statements.  You say that valuing virginity leads to bullying.  To get there one would really have to take great leaps in logical thought.  I will agree that bullying of any type is fundamentally wrong and we should not do it and I will agree that there are some groups who present information in a shameful manner (both pro/anti sex camps).    My own perusal of the research has shown that there is a trend in the past few years towards virginity in our teens.  There are fewer sexually active teens today than in previous years.  I find it interesting that with the ease of contraceptive availability, teens are choosing to not participate rather than "be protected".

I'm curious about your statement about European teens being freer sexually because of a lack of religious restraint/constraint.  It seems to me that you equate that with being a good thing.  Are you saying that we should be more like the Europeans?

[I.Dup.]

 

 Are you saying that we should be more like the Europeans?

 

 

I thought she was saying we should embrace that we are animals and be free to act accordingly.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

:001_huh: No. Valuing one thing does not necessarily lead to shaming something else.

 

Call me rude and shallow, but if there were 2 men proposing marriage to me and I loved them both and could see myself living with either one of them for the rest of my life. . . And if one of them was a virgin and the other not, I'm going with the virgin.

 

And most people (no matter what religious affiliation or bio-self-identification :p ) understand that. Both men have the same intrinsic value, however one is more desirable (to me).

I'd probably have sex with each of them, maybe even at the same time, and decide from there.

[albeto.]

 compared to peers who attended a non-sex-ed health class instead. 

And compared to peers who are offered a comprehensive sex education, complete with information and access to various ways to avoid unwanted pregnancies and STDs, abstinence only programs result in higher STDs, teen pregnancies, and poverty. None of this has to do with shaming. The shaming comes from teaching people their value is somehow wrapped up in their virginity.

 

You keep throwing out statements as if they are truths/facts.  For each of those I can find opposing statements.

Only relevant statements will be helpful in making your point. Kids who are given an eight hour lecture about abstinence v. kids who are given no information at all isn't relevant to the concept of equating virginity with value, and the subsequent shaming for not being a virgin. The fact that you worked for umpteen years and have never heard of the term, "slut-shaming" is not relevant to the concept of equating virginity with value, and the subsequent shaming for not being a virgin. That peer-pressure exists in the direction of ridicule for not being sexually active is not relevant to the concept of equating virginity with value, and the subsequent shaming for not being a virgin.

 

You say that valuing virginity leads to bullying.  To get there one would really have to take great leaps in logical thought.

If you reread my reply to Lara's well-received comment about virginity being one's "most valued treasure," you'll see links that show this isn't actually a great leap in logical thought, but a progression seen in real life.

 

I'm curious about your statement about European teens being freer sexually because of a lack of religious restraint/constraint.  It seems to me that you equate that with being a good thing.  Are you saying that we should be more like the Europeans?

This was in response to the comment that it's a hard concept to test - the concept being virginity as related to value is culturally learned, not a natural instinct. When I say, "looking to teens and young adults in Europe will offer insight into how virginity is no longer equated with intrinsic personal value." I mean specifically that looking to teens and young adults in Europe will offer insight into how virginity is no longer equated with intrinsic personal value. I didn't say anything about being more or less alike, or the value of this trend, simply that it exists.

[albeto.]

I thought she was saying we should embrace that we are animals and be free to act accordingly.

 

Yep, you got me. I'm saying we should embrace that we are nothing but godless, soulless animals, clean our privates with our saliva, sleep outside under trees, hump anything that moves, and drop children like dropping poops - anywhere and everywhere we go.   -_-

[Miss Marple]

Albeto, you are looking at the world through your particular worldview lens.  That lens doesn't make you any smarter or logical than someone who looks through a different lens.  It is interesting when looking at the term "slut-shaming" that all the links are referring to a "feminist" movement.  Therefore, it would not be strange that those of us who are not proponents of the left-wing feminist persuasion will find it difficult to find meaning in the term.   In fact, the examples I found online are so similar to other childish name-calling that I just can't see it as a platform.  It is a cooked up term that is used in order to create victims, IMO.  There are plenty of other cooked up terms out there as well so I'm not just picking on this one.  Shoot, we once had a long thread about how homeschoolers have nicer shoes than others - a poor homeschool mom was made to feel guilty (bullied?) that her kids had better shoes than another child.  Victims everywhere :)  And no matter how a matter is presented I will guarantee that someone will be offended!  Either it will be too rigid or not rigid enough.

 

You mentioned that abstinence programs are not effective.  There are many, many studies - well researched and scrutinized and published in mainstream press - that show the opposite.  You will refuse to believe the data because you have a particular worldview and this data doesn't fit.  To say that those who educate themselves with the data and conclude that the abstinence programs are effective are "ignorant" is rather arrogant on your part.  There seems to be a segment of the "liberal" camp that think if everyone were only as well educated as they that everyone would agree with them.  If someone does not agree it must be because they "lack reading comprehension" or are "ignorant".  Your idea that "slut-shaming" is pervasive in our society and a direct result of valuing virginity simply isn't shown out. I understand that you think it is.  The mass of information out there in the public is more on the "virgin-shaming" side than the "slut-shaming" side.  I do find it interesting, though, that some popular music by very anti-religious groups is far more "slut-shaming" than any popular religious music.  So..."slut-shaming" is certainly not confined to religion.  Could it be that there is something inside us as humans that considers virginity (or at least some sort of monogamy) to be valuable?  It would appear so from some of these music selections.

 

And since we are not going to get anywhere with this discussion, I'll bow out.  I see that you are a new poster to the forum and most of your posts are on this topic. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I am not finding the "many, many studies" that showing abstinence only education to be effective. Truthfully I have always found the opposite.

[unsinkable]

 

 

And since we are not going to get anywhere with this discussion, I'll bow out.  I see that you are a new poster to the forum and most of your posts are on this topic.

 

She's not new. That is her second user name.

 

The first is albeto (no period)

 

The second is albeto. (with the period)

 

But you are correct...her posts are of the one-trick pony variety.

[jessicalb]

I'd probably have sex with each of them, maybe even at the same time, and decide from there.

 

Heck at that point you could build a polyamorous family and everybody could be happy! <3

[Miss Marple]

I am not finding the "many, many studies" that showing abstinence only education to be effective. Truthfully I have always found the opposite.

http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/2010/pdf/bg2372.pdf

 

This paper reviews 22 studies.  A simple Google search of Abstinence effectiveness brought up quite a few.

 

For your reading pleasure :)

 

Studies Reporting Significant Results

1. John B. Jemmott III, Loretta S. Jemmott, and Geoffrey T. Fong. “Efficacy of a Theory-Based Abstinence-

Only Intervention Over 24 Months,†Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, Vol. 164, No. 2

(February 2010), pp. 152–159.

2. Stan Weed, Irene H. Ericksen, Allen Lewis, Gale E. Grant, and Kathy H. Wibberly, “An Abstinence

Program’s Impact on Cognitive Mediators and Sexual Initiation,†American Journal of Health Behavior,

Vol. 31, No. 1 (2008), pp. 60–73.

3. George Denny and Michael Young, “An Evaluation of an Abstinence-Only Sex Education Curriculum:

An 18-Month Follow-Up,†Journal of School Health, Vol. 76, No. 8 (October 2006), pp. 414–422.

4. Stan E. Weed, Irene H. Ericksen, and Paul James Birch, “An Evaluation of the Heritage Keepers Abstinence

Education Program,†Institute for Research and Evaluation (Salt Lake City), November 2005, at

www.heritageservices.org/Stan%20Weed's%20HHS%20Conference%20article.pdf (December 1, 2006).

5. Elaine A. Borawski, Erika S. Trapl, Loren D. Lovegreen, Natalie Colabianchi, and Tonya Block, “Effectiveness

of Abstinence-Only Intervention on Middle School Teens,†American Journal of Health Behavior,

Vol. 29, No. 5 (September/October 2005), pp. 423–434.

6. Robert Lerner, “Can Abstinence Work? An Analysis of the Best Friends Program,†Adolescent & Family

Health, Vol. 3, No. 4 (April 2005), pp. 185–192.

7. Andrew Doniger, John S. Riley, Cheryl A. Utter, and Edgar Adams, “Impact Evaluation of the ‘Not Me,

Not Now’ Abstinence-Oriented, Adolescent Pregnancy Prevention Communications Program, Monroe

County, N.Y.,†Journal of Health Communication, Vol. 6, No. 1 (January–March 2001), pp. 45–60.

8. Stan E. Weed, “Title V Abstinence Education Programs: Phase I Interim Evaluation Report to Arkansas

Department of Health, Institute for Research and Evaluation,†October 15, 2001.

9. John B. Jemmott III, Loretta Sweet Jemmott, and Geoffrey T. Fong, “Abstinence and Safer Sex HIV Risk-

Reduction Interventions for African American Adolescents: A Randomized Controlled Trial,†JAMA,

Vol. 279, No. 19 (May 20, 1998), pp. 1529–1536.

10. Tena L. St. Pierre, Melvin M. Mark, D. Lynne Kaltreider, and Kathryn J. Aikin, “A 27-Month Evaluation

of a Sexual Activity Prevention Program in Boys & Girls Clubs Across the Nation,†Family Relations, Vol.

44, No. 1 (January 1995), pp. 69–77.

11. Stephen R. Jorgensen, Vicki Potts, and Brian Camp, “Project Taking Charge: Six-Month Follow-Up of

a Pregnancy Prevention Program for Early Adolescents,†Family Relations, Vol. 42, No. 4 (October

1993), pp. 401–406.

12. Stan E. Weed et al., “Predicting and Changing Teen Sexual Activity Rates: A Comparison of Three Title

XX Programs,†report to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Office of Adolescent

Pregnancy Programs, December 1992.

13. Michael Resnick et al., “Protecting Adolescents from Harm: Findings from the National Longitudinal

Study on Adolescent Health,†JAMA, Vol. 278, No. 10 (September 10, 1997), pp. 823–832.

14. Peter S. Bearman and Hanna Brückner, “Promising the Future: Virginity Pledges and First Intercourse,â€

American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 106, No. 4 (January 2001), pp. 852–912.

15. Robert E. Rector, Kirk A. Johnson, and Jennifer A. Marshall, “Teens Who Make Virginity Pledges Have

Substantially Improved Life Outcomes,†Heritage Foundation Center for Data Analysis Report No.

CDA04–07, September 21, 2004, at www.heritage.org/Research/Abstinence/cda04-07.cfm.

page 23

No. 2372 February 19, 2010

16. Robert Rector and Kirk A. Johnson, “Adolescent Virginity Pledges, Condom Use, and Sexually Transmitted

Diseases Among Young Adults,†paper presented at the Eighth Annual National Welfare

Research and Evaluation Conference of the Administration for Children and Families, U.S. Department

of Health and Human Services, June 14, 2005, at www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/upload/79366_1.pdf.

17. Robert Rector and Kirk A. Johnson, “Adolescent Virginity Pledges and Risky Sexual Behaviors,†paper

presented at the Eighth Annual National Welfare Research and Evaluation Conference of the Administration

for Children and Families, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, June 14, 2005, at

www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/upload/79314_1.pdf.

 

Studies Reporting No Significant Results

1. Christopher Trenholm, Barbara Devaney, Kenneth Fortson, Melissa Clark, Lisa Quay Bridgespan, and

Justin Wheeler, “Impacts of Abstinence Education on Teen Sexual Activity, Risk of Pregnancy, and Risk

of Sexually Transmitted Diseases,†Journal of Policy Analysis and Management, Vol. 27, No. 2 (Spring

2008), pp. 255–276.

2. Lisa A. Rue and Stan E. Weed, “Primary Prevention of Adolescent Sexual Risk Taking: A School-Based

Model,†presented at the 2005 Abstinence Evaluation Conference, Baltimore, Maryland.

3. Douglas Kirby, Meg Korpi, Richard P. Barth, and Helen H. Cagampang, “The Impact of the Postponing

Sexual Involvement Curriculum Among Youths in California,†Family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 29,

No. 3 (May–June 1997), pp. 100–108.

4. Leticia Postrado and Heather Johnston Nicholson, “Effectiveness in Delaying the Initiation of Sexual

Intercourse of Girls Age 12–14: Two Components of the Girls Incorporated Preventing Adolescent

Pregnancy Program,†Youth and Society, Vol. 23, No. 3 (March 1992), pp. 356–379.

5. Hannah Brückner and Peter Bearman, “After the Promise: The STD Consequences of Adolescent Virginity

Pledges,†Journal of Adolescent Health, Vol. 36, Issue 4 (April 2005), pp. 271–278.

 

Five Studies Mentioned But Not Discussed in This Paper 67

1. Melissa A. Clark, Christopher Trenholm, Barbara Devaney, Justin Wheeler, and Lisa Quay, “Impacts

of the Heritage Keepers Life Skills Education Component,†Mathematica Policy Research, August 2007,

p. 1, at www.mathematica-mpr.com/publications/PDFs/heritagekeepers08-07.pdf (February 27, 2008).

2. Elaine Borawski et al., “Evaluation of the Teen Pregnancy Prevention Programs Funded Through the

Wellness Block Grant (1999–2000),†Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine, Center for

Health Promotion Research, Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, March 23, 2001.

3. Helen P. Koo, George H. Dunteman, Cindee George, Yvonne Green, and Murray Vincent, “Reducing

Adolescent Pregnancy Through a School- and Community-Based Intervention: Denmark, South Carolina,

Revisited,†Family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 26, No. 5 (September–October 1994), pp. 206–211

and 217.

4. B. Helen Thomas, Alba Mitchell, and M. Corinne Devlin, “Small Group Sex Education: The McMaster

Teen Program,†in Brent C. Miller, Josefina J. Card, Roberta L. Paikoff, and James C. Peterson, eds.,

Preventing Adolescent Pregnancy: Model Programs and Evaluations (Newbury Park, Calif.: Sage Publications,

Inc., 1992), pp. 28–52.

5. Marion Howard and Judith Blamey McCabe, “Helping Teenagers Postpone Sexual Involvement,â€

Family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 22, No. 1 (January–February 1990), pp. 21–26.

 

[Miss Marple]

 

 

She's not new. That is her second user name.

 

The first is albeto (no period)

 

The second is albeto. (with the period)

 

But you are correct...her posts are of the one-trick pony variety.

Aha!  I'm not very savvy when it comes to forum sleuthing :)

[ChocolateReignRemix]

http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/2010/pdf/bg2372.pdf

 

This paper reviews 22 studies. A simple Google search of Abstinence effectiveness brought up quite a few.

Your link didn't work.

I did a google search on abstinence effectiveness and the first several links were to well done studies which showed it isn't effective.

Aren't the states with the highest rates of teen pregnancy and STDs also the states where abstinence only education is most prevalent?

[Miss Marple]

Your link didn't work.

I did a google search on abstinence effectiveness and the first several links were to well done studies which showed it isn't effective.

Aren't the states with the highest rates of teen pregnancy and STDs also the states where abstinence only education is most prevalent?

Not sure why it won't open (it's a pdf).  See my edited post above.

[jessicalb]

For some great insight into some possible results of abstinence only education, watch "The Education of Shelby Knox" on netflix.

[unsinkable]

 

 

Aha!  I'm not very savvy when it comes to forum sleuthing :)

 

It's not really sleuthing.

 

I asked her when I noticed the reduction in post count. "albeto" hasn't posted since 7/9, I think. And she said that account is lost in the ether or somesuch statement.

 

The weird thing is..."albeto." had an account since 2012 that was just waiting for her.

 

Meh. Shrug.

[dbmamaz]

wow, too bad you all are so happy arguing about pre-marital sex that you cant answer the question.

 

first of all, both of my teens went through a mini-OWL program (our whole lives) at our UU church, which not only teaches about birth control and sex in general, including homosexuality, but also relationships and how sex affects you as a person.

 

I think to some extent I take sex more seriously than i take marriage.  

 

My daughter, at times, i made her promise to come back from parties still a virgin (because i knew she was not ready to make such decisions) but when she was 17, i let her go stay with her on-line boyfriends of 18 mo, who i'd once met him and his mother, with a box of condoms my sister bought her.  

 

My son?  he's not had an opportunity yet, but I did explain to him at one point that no, 14 is too young to have sex (He's got some issues, and was talking about sex obsessively for at least a year)

 

I dont think marriage is the be-all end-all of adult life.  I was glad i had a lot of living done before i got married.  I think whats important is that what each person decides about his/her own sexuality is what they really believe, and that they do it for the right reasons - not because someone pushed them in to or out of it.  

 

I also like that point that, in most states, the age of consent is 16 or 17.  Oh, and I think its a lot easier for some people to say no than it is for others - some people have stronger urges and some people have weaker self control.  

[Rosie_0801]

I agree with you that bullying is lamentable. I agree with you that someone's sexual behavior should never be the fodder for ridicule, whether that behavior is more active or purposefully waits until marriage. I agree with you that peer pressure makes a huge difference in the development of one's sense of identity. What I'm saying doesn't disagree with any of these things. What I'm saying is that there is a particular methodology that starts with teaching a child that virginity = purity = value, and further, this can, and does, lead to shaming people for being sexually active ("slut-shaming"). I know of no institute that teaches children the value of constant sexual behavior. I know of no church, youth group, or school district that adopts a program to inspire children to be sexually active, and to avoid virginity. I know of no federal funding that pays for programs and speakers to teach children and reinforce to women that to remain a virgin is shameful, and dangerous, and ultimately "gives" themselves away like old chewing gum. If there were, and that came up, I would be similarly opposed to that.

I understand what you are saying. We are concentrating on different parts of the issue, probably because I am not American and there is no pervading, *institutionalised* culture of shaming. I was looking more at the idea that there is no such thing as a good (young) woman. While someone's sex life or lack thereof shouldn't be anyone else's business, what bothers me most is there is very little or no ground between being a dirty skank or frigid. There's no way for a young woman to "win" because there isn't a "right," only two wrongs. Then the next step is that both of these choices are far less about her and far more about whether the boys (and not too many of them) can get what they want from her. That's ugly and lose-lose situations suck.

 

 

 

Your personal experience notwithstanding, looking to teens and young adults in Europe will offer insight into how virginity is no longer equated with intrinsic personal value. It simply isn't taught, it isn't reinforced, it isn't an issue. It should come as no surprise to see young adults in Europe no longer identify as religious, the greatest influence supporting this correlation.

That doesn't prove or disprove my current theory that whether one's virginity matters comes down to personality, and the only Europeans I've been in a position to hear from on this topic thought being a virgin past a certain age was something to be embarrassed about. That is hardly a neutral position.

[Joanne]

wow, too bad you all are so happy arguing about pre-marital sex that you cant answer the question.

 

 

 

 

??? There have been many posts answering the OP.

 

To pick up on themes of the discussion, here is an article:

 

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/artattack/2013/07/daughter_purity_movement.php

[DawnM]

After the gun thread, I am going to have a whole new conversation with my boys!!!!!!!!

 

However, to answer the OP, we are a family who believe that God's best is to wait until marriage. We also believe in discussing birth control, reproduction, and all the medical terms that go along with it.

 

When I was attending my CHRISTIAN college, several of the girls went to parties at the state school and had s*x at those parties. They were coming to ME to ask about BC. I was not having s*x but my parents always discussed BC with me and I knew about it.

[musicianmom]

??? There have been many posts answering the OP.

 

To pick up on themes of the discussion, here is an article:

 

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/artattack/2013/07/daughter_purity_movement.php

I'm a Christian who believes that sex should be reserved for marriage, and I will teach my kids that. However, I think the "purity movement" is creepy as all get out with dances and rings and vows and all that. I agree with 99% of that article and will save it as a resource as my kids get older.