Rant, the "s" question.

[StartingOver]

The next time someone asks my children if they get to socialize with others, they should really look up the definition. I mean they are talking to my children, the children are responding, in the process they are associating with others, and   mingl-ing. 

Really, please raise your hand if you spend your daily life as an adult with only people in a very close range to your current age? Do you only talk to your age peers? Or is life really about learning to get along with people of all ages. Learning to respect our differences, and how to work within those difference with other human beings?

I need to ( but won't happen) start answering this question with something like..." My children are out in public, mingling with people of all ages daily. They really aren't locked in a closet, sheltered from the world, as you can plainly see. SHEESH !

so·cial·ize [soh-shuh-lahyz] Show IPA verb, so·cial·ized, so·cial·iz·ing.
verb (used with object)
1.
to make social; make fit for life in companionship with others.
2.
to associate or mingle sociably with others: to socialize with one's fellow workers.

 

(Why the heck were some of the words in my post hyperlinked today. UGH ! Never had that happen. Some dashes fixed it. WHAT THE HECK IS UP WITH WORDS TURNING TO LINKS???) ** What ever was causing my links is gone now. I am assuming no one else saw them, as I didn't get reported. What fun. Malware.

[kiwik]

The last person to whom i pointed out that we don't usually only have friends our own age said hers were all the same age except me. Personally i think it is odd to still hang round with the kids you went to school with as an adult unless of course you live in a small town with one school and few employers where all the girls get pregnant before the reach 20. Sounds like my hometown. I left at 16.

[fraidycat]

When we were back home for a visit, somebody did mention something about socializing, but I'm a smartass so I told them that they only do their schoolwork, then I lock them in the closet with bathroom breaks every 2 hours... as my kids were sitting right there, taking part in the conversation, talking about science co-op, tennis lessons, golf lessons, and drive-in movies. LOL

[Tap]

Honestly, I do think that kids need to be around others of similar age/stage of life at least part of the time.  Yes, as adults we are around people of all ages and stages of life. But, kids also need to have the opportunity to be around other kids who are in the same general span .  That may mean a bit older or younger, but an elementary age child doesn't usually have a lot in common with a teenager, young adult or a toddler.  Yes, they can possibly hang out and get a lot from their relationship, but it isn't the same as having a friend in the same developmental or emotional place.

 

Most of my friends are in the same stage of life as I am.  I have more casual friends in all stages, but the ones I am closest too, are within 10 years or so.  We all have careers, children and various stages of marriages. We are friends because we have a lot in common, not just one thing, like a class we take.  

 

Obviously, most every person has something to offer in a relationship, no matter how big or small....but at the end of the day we all have times when it is nice to not feel so different from the person we are talking to, that we have to explain our point of view. 

 

I would think it pretty sad, if my 6yo daughter didn't get a chance to hang out with other 5-7yos sometimes.  To enjoy some 6yo humor. To have the anticipation of starting 1st grade (1st year of full time school here). Beginning sports.  Naturally discovering so many firsts.... without someone teaching you how to do it.  All the things that kids her age do.  

 

So, while I agree with most of what you say, we do need to respect each others differences....

but I also think, that every once in a while, It is also just heavenly,  to have a buddy who isn't all that different after all.  

[Garga]

Tap, you took the words out of my mouth.

[StartingOver]

Goodness, really? This is about someone in a store who wants to grill my kids.  FYI, mine are 5&7 and there are 7 other kids on our street that they socialize with who are age 3-8. I was not dissing close age relationships. My kids don't need to spend 8+ hours a day with them to be civil and social though 

[Tap]

Goodness, really? This is about someone in a store who wants to grill my kids.  FYI, mine are 5&7 and there are 7 other kids on our street that they socialize with who are age 3-8. I was not dissing close age relationships. My kids don't need to spend 8+ hours a day with them to be civil and social though 

Then why try to figure out a sarcastic answer to their question?  A simple ' oh, sure...we live in a neighborhood with lots of kids, they take class with others and we do x,y,z.'.   People don't ask to be invasive, they are just curious about how homeschooling works and it is a common question.  The reason why it is a common question, it that a lot of people wonder about it!  Why not just answer in a way that puts a positive light on the homeschooling world instead of snark and sarcasm. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Not sarcastic but perhaps a step up from explaining our entire schedule (which has invited commentary from others on our choices).  I now ask "How do you define socialization?"  Then I let them explain to me what they mean.  If they mean socializing with kids their own age and my kids are socializing with kids their own age in front of them (it has happened) then I just point to my kids and say "like this?"  I am very patient 90% of the time but I have gotten a bit less patient of situations where  they aren't even bothering to think through what they are saying to me.  I'm friendly when I say it but I'm not up to justifying our choices ad nauseum.  

[Chris in VA]

When my daughter finally stopped homeschooling, I could hear the relief in a family member's voice. "She needs to be with her own kind."

As if kids are mutants or something...And she WAS with other kids, esp on Sundays at church.

It irks me, too, esp now that we have to be alert to what she's absorbing from 35 hours a week of "her own kind" who happen to have very different attitudes, worldviews and beliefs.

Not that we don't value diversity, we do, we just feel we have to do more correcting now as she spends more time with peers (and before someone jumps on the religious thing, I am not talking about that--if she were spending 35 hours a week with the kids from church we'd be doing the same thing).

[kiwik]

We do tend to have friends in the same life stages which is why as an older mother I have a lot of younger friends right now. But these friendships are often temporary "for the season" friendships. Children do need to play with other children if possible but I don't see they need to be with them 6 hours a day. My son goes to school but he would be happy to go just for lunch and morning break for the play bits.

[WishboneDawn]

Then why try to figure out a sarcastic answer to their question? A simple ' oh, sure...we live in a neighborhood with lots of kids, they take class with others and we do x,y,z.'. People don't ask to be invasive, they are just curious about how homeschooling works and it is a common question. The reason why it is a common question, it that a lot of people wonder about it! Why not just answer in a way that puts a positive light on the homeschooling world instead of snark and sarcasm.

Exactly. When the questions come from strangers who are honestly curious I just don't get upset. I might be the first homeschooling they've met and surely to goodness I can field a few questions without getting upset. It's not at all unreasonable that a person who doesn't homeschool has spent exactly no time mulling it over our checking out related definitions in the dictionary. Chances are that person has some interesting bit of their life that I have never thought about and would ask seemingly obvious questions about if given the chance.

 

I'll save the frustration for people choose to me who should know better.

[Jen in NY]

I really liked the way my oldest described this phenomenon in a scholarship essay she wrote this year. She pretty much 'ignored' the fact that she is/was homeschooled in everything she had to write for the colleges and chose to focus on what interests her and how she participates in it, but for this one particular essay she answered all the questions ever put to her about homeschooling. It was quite funny, and she won the scholarship! Anyway, here's the quote:

 

"But the ‘most asked question’ award goes to: “How do you meet people and make friends?â€

I’m always a bit amused by this question. I wonder if the asker considers that I’ve already met *them* when they ask it. But this is a question that’s easy to answer; working at the [town] Library, interning at the Laboratory for [local university lab], attending Taekwondo classes, and much more have kept me in good company."

 

Short, sweet, and to the point.

[DawnM]

The last person who mentioned socialization sent me into a huge tizzy.

 

Her kids have had MAJOR issues. 22 year old has never been able to hold down a job, has been arrested for drug use, and is so shy (or odd) that he barely speaks to other people. Her daughter is 17 and so boy crazy that she giggles all the time and talks about this boy or that and can't carry on a normal conversation.

 

It was everything in me not to start pointing it out to her in not very nice words.

 

The other person at that party who homeschooled only until 8th grade made comments to me about how they should "at least" go to high school. UGH! Her oldest daughter got pregnant at 19 and is now in an abusive relationship. Other children have some big issues as well, you get the picture.

 

Instead of saying anything or defending myself I simply smiled and said, "Well, this is what WE have decided to do" and repeated it 3 times before they stopped barraging me with their stupid socialization arguments.

[FaithManor]

I had someone at TARC Finals in Virginia last May ask me the "socialization" question. My son, a homeschooled sophomore, was (as we spoke) carrying on a fruitful conversation with an executive from Timken, a DoD contractor that does work for NASA. At the end of the conversation, ds was handed the company's contact information, the executive's business card, and with that an offer for a college internship no matter where he ends up. In this woman's presence, he was congratulated by said executive for his maturity, clarity, passion, accomplishments, and interviewing skills. DS walked up to me with a grin on his face, and before he could speak, she turned to me and said, NO JOKE, "But, what about his socialization skills?" :banghead:  :banghead:  :banghead:

 

There were several hundred kids (100 rocket teams from all over the U.S., including two from the Virgin Islands, and one from Japan) this guy could schmooze with and apparently it was.not.enough. that he was so adept at conducting an interpersonal conversation with an industry executive. She must have been worried that he didn't have enough practice standing in a straight line or raising his hand, or having his stuff stolen. Sheesh!

 

The funny thing was that a NAR volunteer was with me, and though this gal had never homeschooled her children, her comment was, "What a dingbat! Does she think you lock him in the basement all day and just toss food scraps to him?" Apparently! It's just so easy to design, build, and test a prototype rocket with seven other team members while locked in the dungeon!!!

 

People are brainwashed by the system so thoroughly that they can't think logically, thus the inane questions.

 

 

[marbel]

I've been getting the socialist question for 10 years now.  (I'm sure many of y'all have endured it for much longer.)   I keep my snark in my head and just answer the question:  don't worry, my kids get plenty of time with other kids their age, and with people of all ages. 

 

The funniest one - not exactly socialization, but similar - was at swimming lessons at the Y.  The mom of another student was ranting about having to take her kids to swimming lessons because the public school didn't provide enough PE time.  Then she asked me "do these lessons count as PE for your kids?"   I struggled to contain myself but managed not to bust out laughing. I just told her that yes, the swimming lessons count as PE because they are doing PE.  It was obvious she simply didn't get it.  She wasn't trying to be rude; she was just so immersed in the public education system that she couldn't see any other way.   She also ask the "S" question and I just pointed out the obvious - my kids were in the pool with other kids. 

 

At one point in a class my son, who was in the same class as my daughter but still a better swimmer, gave his sister a big hug to congratulate her for swimming a full length of the pool for the first time.  The other mother saw this and said "Wow.  Do your kids always get along like that?  My son would never do that."   So I was able to explain that homeschooling was great for cementing family relationships.

 

If I'd been snarky with her first time out, I'd never have had the chance to have that conversation.  I doubt that women will ever homeschool, and I don't really care about that.  But she will have a more positive view of homeschooling than if I'd been sarcastic.  As far as I'm concerned, the more nonhomeschoolers who have a positive view of homeschooling around, the better.

[FaithManor]

Not sarcastic but perhaps a step up from explaining our entire schedule (which has invited commentary from others on our choices).  I now ask "How do you define socialization?"  Then I let them explain to me what they mean.  If they mean socializing with kids their own age and my kids are socializing with kids their own age in front of them (it has happened) then I just point to my kids and say "like this?"  I am very patient 90% of the time but I have gotten a bit less patient of situations where  they aren't even bothering to think through what they are saying to me.  I'm friendly when I say it but I'm not up to justifying our choices ad nauseum.  

That's what frustrates me. A genuine inquiry doesn't irk me so much as the insanity of asking me "but when to do they" about the very thing they are doing right there in front of your eyeballs!

 

It's like Bill Engvall says, "Here's Your Sign!"

 

But, really what gets me are the people who won't let it go and so they ask the question, you answer, and they won't drop it. Like the woman at TARC Finals last year. She just couldn't let it go. That's rude. Plain and simple. If you ask anyone a personal question, they choose to answer it, and then you just have to keep on at them on a subject that is a PERSONAL manner (how I choose to educate my kid is a personal choice and while I am generally forthcoming with information, the reality is that it's rude to keep grilling anyone on a personal topic), then someone ought to call the "you", whoever that may be, out on it.

 

That's where my patience runs thin.

[shanvan]

 

If I'd been snarky with her first time out, I'd never have had the chance to have that conversation.  I doubt that women will ever homeschool, and I don't really care about that.  But she will have a more positive view of homeschooling than if I'd been sarcastic.  As far as I'm concerned, the more nonhomeschoolers who have a positive view of homeschooling around, the better.

 

This is a good point.  Sometimes I just get fed up with the motives of some of the inquirers.  The question could be simply b/c they cannot think outside the box, or they are genuinely curious, OR they may be asking b/c they think your life is perfect and they absolutely must prove that your kid has some sort of problem so that they can feel better about their own situation, or  they are so against homeschooling that they feel they are on a crusade to point out its flaws (aka brainwashed by the system).  It isn't always easy to judge motive.  Then again, no matter what, being polite is the best option and most of the time I do manage the polite approach.

[ChristyB in TN]

I have been homeschooling since 1999 or 2000, I can't remember, and am STILL dealing with the stupid socialization question. My 14 year old athlete who is on both a football team and a basketball team, lives in a cul de sac with lots of boys his age (give or take a few years here and there) and friends from public, private and home schools who are constantly in my back yard still has to answer questions from other moms about it. My favorite is when someone says, "My son/daughter is so social we could never homeschool." It isn't a nice thing to say to a kid! He has a busy social and athletic schedule and even if he didn't, we still wouldn't worry. My friends and coworkers are not my age exactly, we also would not have been friends in high school. I am grateful I grew up and was able to broaden my friend base. :)

[mumto2]

On the question of are our friends (the mom) the same age I get burned every single time. The other mom is always my age.

 

I moved countries. The things that age date American friends are different here so I generally have no idea how old anyone is. I am part of a close group of women who gathered around and supported a fellow home ed mom friend who was dying. We all knew each other before but to chat with when you happened to see each other at an activity. We still meet weekly and they are great. We recently discovered that we are all 50 give or take a couple of months. We never suspected because our friend was in her late 30's. We all thought we were the old lady in the group and everyone else was her age. Lol

[NavyMommy]

My favorite is when someone says, "My son/daughter is so social we could never homeschool." It isn't a nice thing to say to a kid! He has a busy social and athletic schedule and even if he didn't, we still wouldn't worry. My friends and coworkers are not my age exactly, we also would not have been friends in high school. I am grateful I grew up and was able to broaden my friend base. :)

 

This is the statement that really bugs me because the implication is that I am doing my child a disservice by not allowing her to be social. Most of the questions (we're just starting our HS journey this year so we're getting lots of initial feedback) don't really bother me, but the way that is phrased always catches me off guard. Usually I'll just say something about how she's involved in ballet and has lots of friends, but the implication still drives me batty.

[ChristyB in TN]

This is the statement that really bugs me because the implication is that I am doing my child a disservice by not allowing her to be social. Most of the questions (we're just starting our HS journey this year so we're getting lots of initial feedback) don't really bother me, but the way that is phrased always catches me off guard. Usually I'll just say something about how she's involved in ballet and has lots of friends, but the implication still drives me batty.

 

After all these years I still don't have a great response. I usually just say that I think we'll be fine and grab my groceries and go. I know if I am sarcastic I feel bad about it later so I just say thanks, he's fine. :)

[Mommy22alyns]

People are very weird about this stuff.  I have come across many many people who think the main purpose of school isn't learning or education, but making "friends". 

 

 

Exactly.  So often the first question posed to us about homeschooling is the "s" question.  As if they're admitting that the educational part can be covered just fine at home, but what about friends?  It's pretty much the first question that was asked of me by the first non-family person I told.

 

Anyway, the girls get out and about just fine and even have plenty of friends in their age range.

 

Rebecca was one of two (with the expanded team, now three) homeschooled girls on team.  A couple of the girls on her level were asking her how she socializes.  Ummmm.....

[Lisa R.]

I think that this can actually be a legitimate question--in some circumstances. Not from the grocery store clerk, not while a child is socializing appropriately with others, not when it's a question repeated by nosy relatives, etc. (Although, I still think the sarcastic response is unhelpful and even hurtful to the cause of homeschooling.)

 

However, as someone who homeschooled since 1995, the stereotype of the unsocialized homeschooler exists for a reason. I think this is a topic where homeschoolers get very defensive about, and I think it's more productive to genuinely ask, "could this be a problem?" Some families this it isn't a problem. They are careful to give their kids exposure to different people, situations, and activities. There are other homeschoolers that have kids that are, for lack of a better work, underexposed. They don't socialize well and aren't given a wide range of experiences. Oftentimes, these parents are unable to recognize this. It is unproductive to simply wave this off as a non-issue. 

 

Also, there are many people here on this board who are sad that their kids don't have enough friends. I think this is one of the greatest challenges many face when homeschooling. I think it's fine to admit that *is* a challenge.

 

I just think it's important for homeschoolers to take an objective look at their kids' lives. Socialization is an area that is popular to be defensive about. Homeschooler message boards like to scoff at those who even consider it an issue. Snarky suggestions are tossed around as ready ammunition for the next person who dares to ask the question.

 

I agree with a PP. If asked the question, give a kind, respectful response. This may lead to a productive conversation. A sarcastic response could only confirm the the preconceived notion that that the family doesn't socialize well.

[FaithManor]

I think that this can actually be a legitimate question--in some circumstances. Not from the grocery store clerk, not while a child is socializing appropriately with others, not when it's a question repeated by nosy relatives, etc. (Although, I still think the sarcastic response is unhelpful and even hurtful to the cause of homeschooling.)

 

However, as someone who homeschooled since 1995, the stereotype of the unsocialized homeschooler exists for a reason. I think this is a topic where homeschoolers get very defensive about, and I think it's more productive to genuinely ask, "could this be a problem?" Some families this it isn't a problem. They are careful to give their kids exposure to different people, situations, and activities. There are other homeschoolers that have kids that are, for lack of a better work, underexposed. They don't socialize well and aren't given a wide range of experiences. Oftentimes, these parents are unable to recognize this. It is unproductive to simply wave this off as a non-issue. 

 

Also, there are many people here on this board who are sad that their kids don't have enough friends. I think this is one of the greatest challenges many face when homeschooling. I think it's fine to admit that *is* a challenge.

 

I just think it's important for homeschoolers to take an objective look at their kids' lives. Socialization is an area that is popular to be defensive about. Homeschooler message boards like to scoff at those who even consider it an issue. Snarky suggestions are tossed around as ready ammunition for the next person who dares to ask the question.

 

I agree with a PP. If asked the question, give a kind, respectful response. This may lead to a productive conversation. A sarcastic response could only confirm the the preconceived notion that that the family doesn't socialize well.

Hmmm....yeah, I've met underexposed homeschoolers in my life, but I've met a HUGE number of underexposed public and private schooled students. I'm sorry to say that this has far less to do with the mode of education than it does family and local culture.

 

I've got kids in my 4-H club from four different area public schools and they are so socially undereducated that it staggers the imagination. They are completely socially inept. In this area, it is not uncommon to find many, many, many youngsters that have never been more than two counties away from home, nor encountered any culture different from their own, and who believe that anything even slightly different from their own comfort zone is bad. They don't know how to make conversation with adults because with classroom sizes that exceed 35 per room with no aides, kids just like them are the only people to have conversations with...they do not know how to greet each other, they do not know phone etiquette, they do not know how to behave in a variety of social situations. If anything, they are worse than the most undersocialized homeschool kids I know BECAUSE all they do know is bully or be bullied or busses with 70 kids on them and everyone acting feral, and very little true adult interaction with the adults in their lives. This simply can't be laid at the door of homeschooling. To be honest, I'm not thrilled with the homeschoolers in my area because they are for the most part, decidedly anti-intellectual, but most of them have taught their kids to speak nicely, use manners, engage in meaningful conversation, etc. this is NOT something I see in the local public school population and the closest private school to us????? Oh.my.word! You have not met a more insolent, dower, unfriendly, immature, unable to maintain even the slightest decent conversation group of teens than this bunch. Their reputation for being "weird and unable to get along with others" is absolutely legendary.

 

So, I don't buy that the fact that just because the question is raised means we need to take a look at it. Nope. From my perspective, the "unsocialized homeschooler" is not nearly as common as the not properly socialized public school kid. Oh, they get socialized, but the content of that socialization is atrocious around here.

 

Faith

[Jean in Newcastle]

Socialization is a proper question to ask myself - along with the questions on curricula, screening questions for vision, hearing and even LDs that as their parent/teacher I am now solely responsible for.  The thing is, all of those questions, including the socialization one, was always my responsibility as a parent - even if I were to put my child in a B & M school where I shared that responsibility with teachers.  The  thing is, if I were to follow most p.s. parents around asking them about socialization, curricula, and if their kids were being screened, they would have no idea what I'm talking about because many of them have abdicated their ultimate responsibility.  So maybe that is the answer I really should give to that question, "You're right.  Socialization is a concern for us parents.  What are you actively doing about it for your kids?"

[Dandelion]

I've been getting the socialist question for 10 years now.  

 

I know this is a typo, but  :lol: .

 

Maybe this is a topic better introduced over in the Illuminati thread.  Latest conspiracy theory:  homeschooling is just a cover for socialist sympathizers to drop out of the mainstream while they secretly pave the way for a new socialist world order.  :D

[Jean in Newcastle]

I know this is a typo, but  :lol: .

 

Maybe this is a topic better introduced over in the Illuminati thread.  Latest conspiracy theory:  homeschooling is just a cover for socialist sympathizers to drop out of the mainstream while they secretly pave the way for a new socialist world order.  :D

 

Well, some people do think that public schools have a socialist agenda . . . 

[snowbeltmom]

"Hmmm....yeah, I've met underexposed homeschoolers in my life, but I've met a HUGE number of underexposed public and private schooled students. I'm sorry to say that this has far less to do with the mode of education than it does family and local culture."

:iagree:

 

The "S"  question is annoying because very rarely is it a genuine question.  Sometimes the individual doesn't even bother to disguise her judgement in the form of a question - she just flat-out tells me that my kids will be lacking in socialization skills because they are homeschooled. 

 

Just last week, I had a school official tell me that my kids will be at a disadvantage when they go off to college because my kids will not have learned how to navigate the hallways in between classes. She then proceeded to tell me that kids learn a lot of socialization skills while changing classes that my kids will be lacking.  

 

I don't understand why strangers think it is ok to make such comments.    

[Dandelion]

And lets get real.  What are kids mostly doing in school?  They are mostly sitting at a desk in a classroom.  They aren't spending all kinds of time out and about in the real world.  A classroom setting is nothing like anything I've experienced in my life outside of a classroom.  I'm not seeing what is so magical about that.

 

Not only that, but you can actually get in trouble for socializing at school.  I remember my teachers repeatedly telling me I wasn't there to socialize.  Oh, the irony.   :tongue_smilie:

[snowbeltmom]

And lets get real.  What are kids mostly doing in school?  They are mostly sitting at a desk in a classroom.  They aren't spending all kinds of time out and about in the real world.  A classroom setting is nothing like anything I've experienced in my life outside of a classroom.  I'm not seeing what is so magical about that.

 

Well, apparently, it is not what goes on in the classroom, but rather what goes on in the hallway - you know, those two minutes that the kids have to dash between classes - that's where the socialization takes place. ;)   

 

The school official told me that she realizes that homeschoolers have a lot of opportunities to socialize at the homeschool co-ops (which we have never done), but homeschoolers can't replicate those valuable socialization skills that one acquires in the hallway. :001_huh: 

 

How will my kids survive college without this hallway experience? :lol:

[Dandelion]

Well, apparently, it is not what goes on in the classroom, but rather what goes on in the hallway - you know, those two minutes that the kids have to dash between classes - that's where the socialization takes place. ;)   

 

The school official told me that she realizes that homeschoolers have a lot of opportunities to socialize at the homeschool co-ops (which we have never done), but homeschoolers can't replicate those valuable socialization skills that one acquires in the hallway. :001_huh:

 

How will my kids survive college without this hallway experience? :lol:

 

That's it, I'm making "hallway time" part of our homeschool.  My kids are not going to miss out on that hallway magic.  :lol:

[FaithManor]

Well, apparently, it is not what goes on in the classroom, but rather what goes on in the hallway - you know, those two minutes that the kids have to dash between classes - that's where the socialization takes place. ;)   

 

The school official told me that she realizes that homeschoolers have a lot of opportunities to socialize at the homeschool co-ops (which we have never done), but homeschoolers can't replicate those valuable socialization skills that one acquires in the hallway. :001_huh:

 

How will my kids survive college without this hallway experience? :lol:

Well, of course...because you know... when John Adams and John Hancock went to Harvard, Thomas Jefferson to the College of William and Mary, and James Madison to Princeton and all at about the tender age of 14 or 15, they were seriously hampered in their learning by not having the "hallway experience"! Those bad, home educated kids must have had a real tough time. Gasp, hallways and other human beings what shall we do Mamma Madison, Mother Adams?????

 

I mean, oh my word, really I need to have someone knock my books out of my hands while running for class, or get shoved around by a bully, or say "What's up dude?" to some random person in order to get a college degree or graduate from trade school???? It's so preposterous that it would be hard to even formulate a response on the fly.

 

Wow, just wow. I am thinking back to my "hallway experiences" through middle and high school and can't think of one thing that this gave me a leg up for in college or the work place. I will say that once I left the hallowed halls of what passes for secondary education in America, that I was pleased to also leave behind the many bra strap snapping experiences, the slaps on the butt by the super jocks, the mean girl comments about hair, or clothes, or make-up, and the yelling at kids that passed for discipline by the teachers and principals. I am very satisfied to announce that not one solitary person on my college campus ever snapped my bra, poked fun at my hair, stopped in the any hallway to regale me with unwanted make-up advice, nor held me hostage while they made inappropriate s*x jokes, and students didn't have to be yelled at all the time or threatened with being sent to the dean nor did the RA's hang out in the dorm bathrooms to make sure we weren't in their too long!

 

I'd also like to state that I had many a good and decent lunch time in my college cafeteria and NONE of those lovely encounters occurred because I had endured the horrors of what passed for my high school cafeteria which included the occasional food fight that one had to duck out of in a hurry before the principal arrived, more s*xual harassment, more bullying, more mean girls, and more ridiculous, frustrated adult comments such as my favorite from the PE teacher, "Dino, put the d*mn food tray down or I'm going to pummel your a** and go directly to jail where I will relish 24 hours away from this h*ll hole!" (Oh, yes, I remember this plain as day some 30 years later.) Never had a college professor or employer say that either! Can't think of anything positive it did for my character development from hearing it.

 

I don't know...I'm having a very hard time seeing the logic of this line of reasoning. I mean, I could see maybe SOMETHING about my kids learning from someone besides me, meeting the expectations of someone besides me, but then I outsource a lot of foreign language study, we do 4-H science fairs, plus local and state science fairs, they have NAR mentors in addition to us, volunteer opportunities where they answer to other adults beside us, and they take paid jobs house sitting, farm sitting, etc. for other people, equestrian lessons....So I'm pretty certain my kids are going to learn to adapt to the above just fine too without the horror show that is my local public high school, episodes of which are routinely described to me by two friends that teach in it!

 

Anyone can learn to adapt to a new environment without experiencing it first so long as they have been raised to be adaptable. Frankly, I don't necessarily see the PS providing that kind of learning anymore with their policies that everyone has to be the same, act the same, be educated in the same manner, do the same thing at the same time, be quiet all. the.live.long.day., and never have an original thought because that would be against the policy or the curriculum.

 

Okay, I have to stop ranting about this. I have a stack of 4-H paperwork to do and geeky, improperly socialized teenagers asking when we are we getting the rocket team supplies out so the other team members can come over, help them catalog the odds and ends, and do some prototype design work. Poor little socially backward, isolated, non-hallway denizen children! How.will.they.ever.survive? :lol:

 

Faith

[snowbeltmom]

It's so preposterous that it would be hard to even formulate a response on the fly.

 

 

 

The comment was so stupid that I didn't even bother to reply.  I couldn't help but think to myself during her long tirade, "what an idiot."

 

I came home and laughed to my husband that homeschoolers must be making progress. The only reason this woman could come up with for why my kids should attend the public school is because they are missing out on the hallway experience.  

 

My hallway experience was very similar to yours, Faith.  I am glad that my dd will miss out on this.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Public school kids do not necessarily have friends.  And the socialization question isn't necessarily asking if your kids have friends.  It can be asking (as the posts on standing in line and dealing with hallways point out) if they have learned how to deal with common social problems and have that common thread of experience that some people think is necessary to progress in our culture.  It can also in some rare instances (because I think this is truly what socialization is about but most people don't have a clue) if the child has learned how to deal with others in society.  This can include learning how to make friends and influence people but honestly whether or not there is friend material out there in any one setting at any one time can be a crap shoot.  

[Belacqua]

Well, apparently, it is not what goes on in the classroom, but rather what goes on in the hallway - you know, those two minutes that the kids have to dash between classes - that's where the socialization takes place. ;)   

 

The school official told me that she realizes that homeschoolers have a lot of opportunities to socialize at the homeschool co-ops (which we have never done), but homeschoolers can't replicate those valuable socialization skills that one acquires in the hallway. :001_huh:

 

How will my kids survive college without this hallway experience? :lol:

 

Similarly, I was informed that my kid will never make it in life because he hasn't enough experience with "institutional bathrooms." 

[marbel]

I agree that it is a legitimate question and that it can be a problem. Extracurricular activities like sports, music, and so on often do not provide enough opportunity to make real friends, because the kids are focused on the activity and tend to have a busy schedule as well. Public school kids hang out with each other because they don't have time to hang out with others much. Unless you happen to be lucky and have a large network including many kids your kids actually like, it can take an awful lot of hard work to help kids find friends. Homeschooling can be an extra obstacle because of (parental) prejudices, in some areas at least. 

 

 

I was thinking about this thread while driving my daughter and a friend to camp today.  And then I came home and read the above; it fits well with our experience. 

 

A child can be well-socialized yet still not have loads of friends.  My 14-year-old daughter is a great example of this.  Right now she has 2 friends, neither of whom she sees very often.   She is lonely.  Our neighborhood is full of girls her age, and she's met them all, but she since she doesn't go to school with them she's invisible.  At one point when she was about 10, she tried to make friends with one girl.  The mom suggested that we walk to the school bus stop when it brought the girl home, and if she didn't have homework or something else to do, she could hang out with my girl.  We tried that 3 times; there was never a time the girl wasn't busy.  So we stopped trying. 

 

She hasn't  tried seeking the others out because quite honestly she recognizes that they have nothing in common.  She likes to read; they don't.  They play sports; she does not.  They talk about boys and pop stars; she likes to talk about Dr. Who.  Etc. 

 

However, she is extremely well socialized in that she can talk to people of pretty much any age.  She will play with little kids, which makes her the darling of the young moms at church. (And helps her babysitting business!)  She will also sit for a few minutes with the lady who just turned 95 and chat with her.  And she talks to everyone in between.  She makes herself useful and is fast becoming the official photographer for church events.

 

Our church happens to be a great and friendly place, but there is only one other girl near her age, and she (despite going to school) is known for being unsocial.  At a recent church retreat, my daughter wandered alone with her camera during the day, but spent the evening playing card games with the 20-something women (age, not quantity), all of whom came to me the next day to tell me what a dream girl she is. 

 

Unsocialized?  No.  Lonely and lacking social outlets with kids her age?  Yes. 

[snowbeltmom]

 Extracurricular activities like sports, music, and so on often do not provide enough opportunity to make real friends, because the kids are focused on the activity and tend to have a busy schedule as well. Public school kids hang out with each other because they don't have time to hang out with others much. 

My kids have had the exact opposite experience.  Even when my kids attended public school, their friendships were formed through their extracurricular activities.  

 

My kids did not have the opportunity to socialize with their public school classmates during the school day: they were not permitted to speak in class and the only opportunity to socialize was during their 30 minutes combined lunch/recess which did not provide enough time to make any lasting friendships.

[tammyw]

It's funny that we are always the target of the same question over and over and over, while we (and by we I mean homeschoolers) don't have a concerning question to ask of those who send them to school. For me, it's because I don't see it my place to show concern over general areas for THEIR kids. I suppose we could ask things like "aren't you concerned your child will be overly peer oriented? Or boy crazy?" Etc. but it's silly. Every kid is going to be who they are (those pesky innate traits and all, family influence, etc.)

 

I do think its funny that so many people are so concerned about this one particular thing!

[Amy in NH]

Honestly, I do think that kids need to be around others of similar age/stage of life at least part of the time.  Yes, as adults we are around people of all ages and stages of life. But, kids also need to have the opportunity to be around other kids who are in the same general span .  That may mean a bit older or younger, but an elementary age child doesn't usually have a lot in common with a teenager, young adult or a toddler.  Yes, they can possibly hang out and get a lot from their relationship, but it isn't the same as having a friend in the same developmental or emotional place.

 

Most of my friends are in the same stage of life as I am.  I have more casual friends in all stages, but the ones I am closest too, are within 10 years or so.  We all have careers, children and various stages of marriages. We are friends because we have a lot in common, not just one thing, like a class we take.  

 

Obviously, most every person has something to offer in a relationship, no matter how big or small....but at the end of the day we all have times when it is nice to not feel so different from the person we are talking to, that we have to explain our point of view. 

 

I would think it pretty sad, if my 6yo daughter didn't get a chance to hang out with other 5-7yos sometimes.  To enjoy some 6yo humor. To have the anticipation of starting 1st grade (1st year of full time school here). Beginning sports.  Naturally discovering so many firsts.... without someone teaching you how to do it.  All the things that kids her age do.  

 

So, while I agree with most of what you say, we do need to respect each others differences....

but I also think, that every once in a while, It is also just heavenly,  to have a buddy who isn't all that different after all.  

 

If you think it's sad that we aren't all sending our 6 yos to school so that they can have the anticipation of starting first grade then I think you are in the wrong place on a message board for homeschoolers supporting other homeschoolers, and in particular in a thread about how ridiculous it is for the general public to harp on the socialization issue when we are obviously not isolating ourselves from the world. 

 

Yes my kids get to spend time with their age mates, but not exclusively like in public school.  Yes they do sports in the community.  They don't have to go to school to do that.  Research studies have shown homeschoolers to be better socialized than public-schoolers.  Just because you have decided to send a kid to school doesn't mean you can put down homeschoolers as being unsocialized by your narrow definition and then get away with calling us disrespectful of differences.

 

 

[FaithManor]

Similarly, I was informed that my kid will never make it in life because he hasn't enough experience with "institutional bathrooms." 

This should come with a warning...I spit ice tea all over the keyboard!!!

 

:smilielol5:  :smilielol5:  :smilielol5: Are my kids better prepared for life because they've dealt with porta potties?????

[Mom0012]

I think that this can actually be a legitimate question--in some circumstances. Not from the grocery store clerk, not while a child is socializing appropriately with others, not when it's a question repeated by nosy relatives, etc. (Although, I still think the sarcastic response is unhelpful and even hurtful to the cause of homeschooling.)

 

However, as someone who homeschooled since 1995, the stereotype of the unsocialized homeschooler exists for a reason. I think this is a topic where homeschoolers get very defensive about, and I think it's more productive to genuinely ask, "could this be a problem?" Some families this it isn't a problem. They are careful to give their kids exposure to different people, situations, and activities. There are other homeschoolers that have kids that are, for lack of a better work, underexposed. They don't socialize well and aren't given a wide range of experiences. Oftentimes, these parents are unable to recognize this. It is unproductive to simply wave this off as a non-issue. 

 

Also, there are many people here on this board who are sad that their kids don't have enough friends. I think this is one of the greatest challenges many face when homeschooling. I think it's fine to admit that *is* a challenge.

 

I just think it's important for homeschoolers to take an objective look at their kids' lives. Socialization is an area that is popular to be defensive about. Homeschooler message boards like to scoff at those who even consider it an issue. Snarky suggestions are tossed around as ready ammunition for the next person who dares to ask the question.

 

I agree with a PP. If asked the question, give a kind, respectful response. This may lead to a productive conversation. A sarcastic response could only confirm the the preconceived notion that that the family doesn't socialize well.

Yes, I am constantly worried about my kids in this area, especially my ds. It's bad enough to worry about the academic stuff as high school approaches, but the social aspect of homeschooling is extremely burdensome to me.  All through the early years and up until a year ago, my son, who is a very social person, had a ton of friends. I think he invited 15 people to his 10th birthday party. Then, one-by-one, they returned to public school, moved out of the area, got very involved in other activities, etc.  We do not live in a neighborhood and these relationships are not easy to replace at this age.  I helped to nurture these friendships from when he was young, but now that he's older, it just isn't happening.  He does attend Boy Scouts and gets along very well with the other boys, but none of those relationships turn into a friendship where he invites the kid over or someone invites him over and he needs that.  He still has one friend he can do that with, and he sees this friend multiple times a week.  If they move, which the mom is always talking about, it is going to be devastating for him.  At that point, I would almost consider trying to convince my husband to move into a neighborhood even though we love our house.

 

My dd, on the other hand, has two close friends she's had since she was a toddler and is perfectly happy to see one of them once a week and the other 2 times a month.  She is a sweetheart, but not as social, and tends to be shy, so I worry about her on that front.

 

That is why we will be participating in two coops this year, even though I'd rather not.  One that has a very high level of academics for my dd (and I'm hopeful she will make friends this year since we'll stay for the full day instead of two classes), and one that is more laid back where I think my son will fit in and make friendships.  I only wish my kids were more similar academically so they could both attend classes at the same coop.

 

Then again, I look at my sister's kids, who do live in a neighborhood and attend public school and only one of her children has anyone to play with after school.  That always makes me wonder if it is a homeschooling thing or just a sign of the times.   I think part of it may be that kids are just so busy with scheduled activities these days, especially as they get older.

 

I really haven't had many people ask me about socialization over the years, so it's not as much of a hot button for me from that perspective.

[*lifeoftheparty*]

Well, apparently, it is not what goes on in the classroom, but rather what goes on in the hallway - you know, those two minutes that the kids have to dash between classes - that's where the socialization takes place. ;)

 

The school official told me that she realizes that homeschoolers have a lot of opportunities to socialize at the homeschool co-ops (which we have never done), but homeschoolers can't replicate those valuable socialization skills that one acquires in the hallway. :001_huh:

 

How will my kids survive college without this hallway experience? :lol:

Well, here in MD, there is a problem at one of the schools (a highly sought after district) where kids are giving/receiving oral sex in the hallways in between classes.

 

I'm not sure how our children will make it in college w/o those skills, I hope they can cope...

[snowbeltmom]

Well, here in MD, there is a problem at one of the schools (a highly sought after district) where kids are giving/receiving oral sex in the hallways in between classes.

A highly ranked neighboring district had that problem at their middle school. :scared:

[SunnyDays]

Wow. I've heard the bit about the classroom experience. Even the bit about the bus experience. (And man, I could tell you some tales about when I rode the bus to junior high, but it's not for the faint hearted.)

 

But the hallway experience? That's a new one... And the bathroom experience? Yikes...

 

I'm not against sending DS to secondary school, and in fact that's the direction we are leaning. But looking at pictures of the high school he would most likely attend, and how crowded and crazy those hallways are... I can't remember a single moment from my college days that would compare.

[Jean in Newcastle]

People seem to forget that an institutional experience does not guarantee you friends - or at least good wholesome friends.  It doesn't preclude them either.  But while the more people you have to choose from ups your odds of finding kindred spirits to some degree, the social/cultural experience of the group can up your odds of it being a damaging experience.  So choose your odds.  There are ways to turn the odds to your favor - join clubs and sports at school that will increase the odds of you finding friends with similar interests.  (You can do this as a homeschooler too btw).  

[Tap]

If you think it's sad that we aren't all sending our 6 yos to school so that they can have the anticipation of starting first grade then I think you are in the wrong place on a message board for homeschoolers supporting other homeschoolers, and in particular in a thread about how ridiculous it is for the general public to harp on the socialization issue when we are obviously not isolating ourselves from the world. 

 

Yes my kids get to spend time with their age mates, but not exclusively like in public school.  Yes they do sports in the community.  They don't have to go to school to do that.  Research studies have shown homeschoolers to be better socialized than public-schoolers. 

 

Your reading things into my post that are not there.

 

I never once said they needed to go to school for those things.  Socialization with kids of similar ages can happen anywhere. But, I do think that they need at least some of that socialization to be with kids in a similar stage of life, and for my kids that typically meant being with other kids who are within a couple of years age difference.  DD6's friends live accross the street.  One of my older dd's longest and dearest friends what the little sister of a boy that my son was on swim team with. 

 

 

 Just because you have decided to send a kid to school doesn't mean you can put down homeschoolers as being unsocialized by your narrow definition and then get away with calling us disrespectful of differences.

 

 I won't even respond to this. You are really misreading and adding words to my post.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Somehow, "you know, I went to public school and I didn't have any friends there" doesn't seem to be a great response to give to a homeschool skeptic. Not that it isn't true. 

 

No, but asking "How does going to public school guarantee friendships?" might not be a bad thing to discuss - honestly and without prejudice.  i don't take the time to have these sorts of discussions with strangers or even just acquaintances, but I will with friends.  But I know that my friends are honest people who try to look at issues objectively even as I try to do the same.  We're not always successful but usually if someone asks a thoughtful question the person will slow down and really think it through.  I've learned from these discussions as much as they have, and even if we might have stuck with our "mode of school" choice, we have been perhaps more thoughtful as parents in how we navigate it.  (I did have one friend who did homeschool for a while after we had a thoughtful discussion of how education is really the parent's responsibility even if you do choose to send them to p.s.  And I was motivated to look up the details of our school district after a thoughtful discussion where a friend pointed out that it was best to know the details of the local schools.)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Now that's an interesting point for discussion. Education is the parents'/parent's responsibility regardless of where the child is being educated. Socialization is something that happens naturally through life, in any environment (as long as the child comes into contact with people frequently, that is). But... is it a parent's responsibility to ensure that a child has friends? What does one do when this just doesn't seem to be happening? 

 

I think it is the parent's responsibility that a child has access to a good education.  You can't force a child to actually learn if he/she refuses to learn.  (This presupposes that you look for a good fit in curricula, approach, check for learning problems etc.)

 

I think it is the parent's responsibility that a child has access to people so that they can at least have a social life of acquaintances.  I don't think it is in a parent's control (or anyone's for that matter) if an actual friendship will result.  I do think it is the parent's responsibility that a child is in an environment that is safe socially as well as physically.  

 

How many options you have in access to all of this depends a lot on our circumstances.  Someone in a first world country is going to have a lot more options open to them.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

So, say your kid is gifted and doesn't do generally do well with NT kids because they don't share many of the same interest, or your kid is very shy, or, or... Is it enough to just go about your life, including possibilities for socializing with other kids (any kids that happen to be present), or must you go a step further and specifically try to find kids that your kid might like to be friends with, and who are likely to like your kid?

 

When you say that someone in a first-world country has more options, are you talking about "extra-curricular activities" specifically? Or what do you have in mind? We live in what can be described as a second-world country, an economy in transition, or whatever, but definitely not a first-world country. I have a feeling that there might be more options to build child friendships here, because people are less hurried and busy than they are in the West in general, and there is a strong park culture that includes kids of all ages. The latter is probably due to the fact that park time is free entertainment, because this is a poor country. My kids met most of their friends at a park, and they come there specifically to socialize and play together, as opposed to playing instruments or sports. 

Those are good questions and I'm not sure there are hard and fast answers to them.  I do the best I can for my own children but I know that my best isn't always as good as someone else's best.  I've tried to teach my kids to get along with a wide variety of people - even those who just don't "get" them.  My very shy child (who had selective mutism when younger and still shows signs of it at times) is in a volunteer position where she needs to lead and talk to people a lot.  I spend a bit more time trying to work on the weaker areas because the stronger areas that just naturally come.  I am limited in my choices by finances, our geographical location and my health but I do the best within those parameters.  

 

With the first world comment I was thinking in terms of access to extra curriculars, access to various kinds of schools, transportation to get to various places, that sort of thing.  In the small aboriginal village we visited in the Philippines, the kids had the choice of friendships with the other kids in the village and that was it.  You either learned to get along with the kids there or at least maybe an adult that you could talk to but you didn't have any other choices of seeing kids because the school was made up of the same village children.  They didn't have transportation other than walking or perhaps a Carabao (water buffalo).  They had no access to clubs or sports or anything else.  So parents had a responsibility to help their kids to navigate their one choice for schooling (and supplement it with real-world knowledge because the adults didn't have book knowledge to impart) and to help their kids to navigate the social scene that they had.  It had the possibility for some deep friendships but also the possibility of being stuck with bullies too if that was what was in the mix of the village population.  

 

I was just thinking about that because it seems like something like a responsibility should be true for poor as well as rich parents but of course the options they have are so very different.