Should we do both Classical Conversations and Odyssey of the Mind co-op?

[Literary Mom]

My homeschool group started a co-op four years ago, which we've been part of since then. This coming school year, I decided to make a change and try Classical Conversations (it's new to our area). I will have three children (ages 6,8,11) in Foundations and I will be an Essentials tutor (teaching my 11 year-old and 1-2 other students - it's a small group).

 

Now it turns out that our homeschool group co-op is going in a whole new direction and will be doing Odyssey of the Mind over this next school year.

 

I am wondering if it's realistic...or even healthy...to attempt to do both, since that would take up two mornings (plus an afternoon) each week, leaving us with only three mornings for actual homeschooling, and one of those days is Saturday (our weekend is Sun/Mon), which historically has been difficult to preserve for lessons, though I tried this past year, since it felt like we really needed four days (mornings and partway into the afternoon, then quiet time and extracurriculars).  

 

I'm hesitant because this is our first year with CC and with me being a tutor, so I don't want to take time away from what's needed to put the most in to that, but on the other hand, the co-op chose OM (Odyssey of the Mind) partly to remove the burden of teaching from the parents. I wouldn't even have to coach or assistant coach - I could just help out, so there shouldn't be any prep work or homework. 

 

My other reservation is philosophical.  In a way, it seems like these two programs are diametrically opposed - sort of like conservative vs. liberal, Christian vs. secular, history vs. future, knowledge vs. creativity, wisdom vs. innovation, convention vs. technology. Or, remove the "vs." and could they could be seen as complementary?  God is full of paradoxes, so maybe this is like that. And OM does use critical thinking, problem solving skills, so that could fit with logic...but in the classical model, that wouldn't happen until the middle grades, whereas OM includes grammar stage kids. And the lack of adult direction (kids come up with everything on their own) doesn't seem like it would be compatible either...unless all the kids were being taught logic as a separate course to inform their decisions.

 

Then throw in Susan Wise Bauer's view that it's better not to join a co-op at all. Well, at least that's what was best for her family. Since we have been WTM'ers from the beginning, her opinion is worth its weight in gold. And having experienced a co-op these past three years (in fact, the only time we weren't in it was our very first semester and that was just with one child, so I really don't know any different), I can see where it can be problematic. Still, for us, I've felt that the benefits outweighed the downsides...at least until this past year, which was part of what prompted me to make the change to CC.  

 

Some others in our homeschool group are doing both, but they are generally less rigorous at home (more Charlotte Mason than WTM) and have younger children.

[Literary Mom]

I edited the above to correct the name - Odyssey of the Mind (not brain) and add a bit about the logic stage / problem solving to the 5th paragraph (the one about philosophy).

[Farrar]

I think you're spot on that they're really opposites. However, I think they could absolutely be complimentary and give you a really well-rounded set of experiences. I'm sure most people will speak in favor of CC, but we do Destination Imagination, which is very similar to OM and I have nothing but enthusiasm for the experiences we've had with DI and the skills my kids have acquired there in terms of teamwork and taking ownership of what they do. It's pretty great.

 

OM has a season in a way. You can spend all year on it, I suppose, but it's really only intense in the time leading up to the competition. And then it's over. I'm pretty sure the timing is similar to DI and all the first level tournaments are in the early spring or even late winter. So it's really that time post Christmas to the tournament when you actually do much of anything. So it's not a huge energy or time zap beyond that usually.

 

For me, OM/DI provide something that you can't provide at home whereas the type of learning CC represents is something you can teach at home. In fact, I personally prefer keeping our academics at home and letting the things we do outside be enrichment. I think if you do CC, you have to see that day as an academic day and give something up from home - or at least, I would, if I did that. I'm pretty pro-co-op (for the right co-op). Our co-op groups give us a lot. I have learned, as my kids have gotten older, that we have to cut back and be home more, but I really value what we get from our groups, DI in particular.

 

But I may be coming from a really different place philosophically from you. We are more relaxed, CM-ish, schoolers and CC wouldn't appeal to me personally at all (nor would any other real in place of home academics co-op before high school).

[carriede]

As a former OMer, I'd like to point out that it does have some adult direction. Yes, the end result is entirely up to the kids, but the adult can still supervise and teach.

 

For example, when I was in 7th grade, we needed to make costumes for our OM skit. My friend's mom could not sew them for us, but she taught me how to use a sewing machine and I took it from there.

 

No advice on your actual problem, sorry.

[Literary Mom]

I think you're spot on that they're really opposites. However, I think they could absolutely be complimentary and give you a really well-rounded set of experiences. I'm sure most people will speak in favor of CC, but we do Destination Imagination, which is very similar to OM and I have nothing but enthusiasm for the experiences we've had with DI and the skills my kids have acquired there in terms of teamwork and taking ownership of what they do. It's pretty great.

 

OM has a season in a way. You can spend all year on it, I suppose, but it's really only intense in the time leading up to the competition. And then it's over. I'm pretty sure the timing is similar to DI and all the first level tournaments are in the early spring or even late winter. So it's really that time post Christmas to the tournament when you actually do much of anything. So it's not a huge energy or time zap beyond that usually.

 

For me, OM/DI provide something that you can't provide at home whereas the type of learning CC represents is something you can teach at home. In fact, I personally prefer keeping our academics at home and letting the things we do outside be enrichment. I think if you do CC, you have to see that day as an academic day and give something up from home - or at least, I would, if I did that. I'm pretty pro-co-op (for the right co-op). Our co-op groups give us a lot. I have learned, as my kids have gotten older, that we have to cut back and be home more, but I really value what we get from our groups, DI in particular.

 

But I may be coming from a really different place philosophically from you. We are more relaxed, CM-ish, schoolers and CC wouldn't appeal to me personally at all (nor would any other real in place of home academics co-op before high school).

 

This is very helpful input - thank you. I'm sort of processing right now the idea of not being so black and white, of easing up a bit on the classical approach (not that we've ever followed it rigidly), and letting it be more eclectic. I just don't want to be so spread out that we don't have any continuity or depth. 

[Literary Mom]

As a former OMer, I'd like to point out that it does have some adult direction. Yes, the end result is entirely up to the kids, but the adult can still supervise and teach.

 

For example, when I was in 7th grade, we needed to make costumes for our OM skit. My friend's mom could not sew them for us, but she taught me how to use a sewing machine and I took it from there.

 

No advice on your actual problem, sorry.

 

Good to know - thanks!

[Literary Mom]

Interesting to come back to this thread now, as I contemplate this same scenario for the coming school year, except that it would be whether to put my oldest in Challenge A (no CC for my younger two) and do Odyssey of the Mind with all three kids....or just do one or none :) Today at our homeschool group's park day, I heard some really positive feedback about this past year of OM co-op (which wraps up with the competition this weekend). It's not even confirmed yet that either option (Challenge & OM) will exist, but it looks likely that both will, so being the planner that I am, I'm already starting to bat it back and forth!  

 

[Guest survivepsalm917]

IMHO...stay away from Classical Conversations at any age level. I'm so glad to finally see that there are others out there who are beginning to realize it is not the be-all, end-all for homeschoolers. It is so highly overrated, and you are so right about the Emperor/taboo/Kool-Aid comments. Don't be fooled. Classical Conversations is not who or what it seems to be at all. Regarding their "classical" approach to homeschooling...all they have done is just taken a bunch of curriculum which is already out there, packaged and promoted it well, and sold it for a huge profit. My family was a part of a community for several years before their thread started to unravel.  I'm sorry to say that their curriculum choices, whether you think they are good or bad are not the main problem, as I see it.

As a mom in the class with the wonderful parent tutors you most likely won't ever get the behind-the-scenes tour. Ah, but sign the director paperwork, and it becomes a whole new world in itself. The "leadership" behavior in the self proclaimed Christian women I had the misfortune to address from the F/E Director, to the SMs, AMs and even the Regional director was a complete embarrassment to the Christian community. The women I dealt with had no respect for men, had no qualms about lying boldly over and over again, no problems with multiple verbal threats, and no cares about anything or anyone except their "positions of authority" in CC.

What this organization promotes about God, Christianity, and family is so far removed from who they really are.

We even took a Classical Conversations Cruise with Leigh Bortins. There were just a handful of CC people on that cruise. At the meet and greet, all  she seemed interested in was having us pose with her for pictures. She never addressed us personally. Not even our children. I thought at least she would come by and ask the kids where they were from, what CC class they were in, if they were trying for MM, what their favorite subjects were.....nothing, No one from the CC "leadership" even said hello the whole hour we were in the room. Later, at another CC specific "social" engagement, she was sitting outside waiting for the doors of the lounge to open. We walked up, politely said hello, and sat down. She and her entourage got up and walked away without saying a word.

I could go on and on about the summer I had last year, dealing with this bunch, but I figure you are getting my point by now.

Anyway, it's funny I saw this post today, because I had just told someone this afternoon I don't see how CC has gotten so many wonderful, talented, and intelligent people to drink this Kool-Aid for so long. So many wonderful women are so afraid of them. Afraid they'll lose a tutor position, (which they probably will) if they dare say something, or question anything. Afraid that their kids will miss out on something if they quit CC. Believe me, you and your kids will be so much better off. Make the break!

We have had the best homeschool year this year, just a few families meeting together on our own. God did more than we could ever have asked or imagined. Every step and every turn, He revealed that we had made the right decision to move on. It is CC registration time again, so if this post saves even a few from becoming part of this nightmare, it will be worth it.

This is my first post on this forum, and probably the last because forums are generally not my "thing." But now and again I google CC problems/complaints to see if anyone else has similar issues and this came up....so thanks for reading.

 

[Literary Mom]

This is timely, both in terms of decision making, and it being the middle of the night, when I shouldn't even be here, but I am up doing homeschoolish things (of course) and happened to check my email...so for this to be your first and last post, here, and at this odd hour...well, it seems like I should pay attention. Thank you for your candor and warning. In case you do come back, you may want to check out another thread I started - the most thorough discussion/critique of CC online:

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/494523-does-anyone-else-think-classical-conversations-is-neither/