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Couple questions about Logic of English; 2nd & 5th grade


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So I have purchased Logic of English to use with my 2nd grader and 5th grader.

Concerning my 2nd grader: I was thinking that I would skip the grammar portion of LOE, since we use FLL (we will do FLL2), but the grammar in LOE looks great. I do love FLL though and I think it would be overkill to do both. Could anyone give me some direction here about the two? Then I got to thinking that I could just use LOE for all LA, except writing we use WWE, and pick up FLL3 in third grade?

Concerning my 5th grader: I was looking through the spelling lists in the LOE book and they seem quite easy until you get towards the end of the book. I'm torn b/w doing the lists in the book or the advanced lists on LOE's website? Can anyone tell me which spelling lists they use for their upper elementary child? DD is not the greatest of spellers but she did comment on how easy the beginning to middle words were when she looked through it. I don't want her to become bored with the program.....I thought I read on here that someone uses both lists. How do you incorporate both in a week? Do many of you do 2 lessons a week or 1? I don't see her moving fast through LOE, which I'm fine with. I want her phonics/spelling/reading solidified before middle school.  I'm pretty sure we are not going to use the grammar portion with dd b/c we are going to start JAG....and move into AG for middle.  Any advice or examples of schedules would be most helpful! 

 

Thank you!

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I would say you could do it either way for your 5th grader, you're the best judge of her level. Ds generally does well in spelling and I had started him w/ the advanced lists as the early lists especially were already words he knew. However, I reconsidered and decided to work on the lists in the book. I thought it would be good practice for the rules to see them applied to words he knew, I plan to do the advanced list next year but of course at this point who knows. We are doing spelling everyday but just a bit each day, maybe about 15 min. I considered doing the grammar as well but decided against it as we will be using MCT and our schedule is already full. It does look good though and it seems it would be a good choice.

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I tried to answer yesterday but couldn't post. . . hopefully it works this time!

 

For the 5th grader, I'd use the Advanced list. You don't want them to think you are insulting their intelligence! We started this last year with dd in 5th, we do the phonics & spelling portion only, and use the advanced spelling list. DD writes down the spelling rules in her notebook, then we do the spelling list. It's once a week, quick and easy. It's definitely spread into her writing, which is great, and has given us a vocabulary to discuss spelling (i.e. when she asks how to spell something, I use the phonograms rather than spelling it out for her, and she's picking up the . . . Logic of the whole thing!

 

With dd7, I got her the workbook and we're doing the whole thing, along with WWE, as our complete LA. As it covers phonics, grammar, compostion/dictation and spelling, I feel like this is enough, along with the narration & copywork in WWE.

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I am using advanced lists for both my second and third grader (we just tarted this week, but I pretested a chunk of the original list and its too easy). I ask my kids to spell out words in the original list without having to write them down. If we come across words that they don't know how to spell, we will tack them on to the advanced list. I wish she had an "intermediate list" as well.

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I tried to answer yesterday but couldn't post. . . hopefully it works this time!

 

For the 5th grader, I'd use the Advanced list. You don't want them to think you are insulting their intelligence! We started this last year with dd in 5th, we do the phonics & spelling portion only, and use the advanced spelling list. DD writes down the spelling rules in her notebook, then we do the spelling list. It's once a week, quick and easy. It's definitely spread into her writing, which is great, and has given us a vocabulary to discuss spelling (i.e. when she asks how to spell something, I use the phonograms rather than spelling it out for her, and she's picking up the . . . Logic of the whole thing!

 

With dd7, I got her the workbook and we're doing the whole thing, along with WWE, as our complete LA. As it covers phonics, grammar, compostion/dictation and spelling, I feel like this is enough, along with the narration & copywork in WWE.

 

Are these the correct alternative lists to use?   So basically dd 5th grader would just keep a spelling notebook/binder for each lesson.....and what about the spelling journal?  Have you used that or plan to this year with your younger?   Did you do 1 lesson once a week (for just one day of the week?) for your older.....Just want to make sure I'm reading this right! 

I may just use the whole thing for my 2nd grader as well, just including some poetry memorization from FLL2, and adding WWE2.  Thanks for your help!

I am using advanced lists for both my second and third grader (we just tarted this week, but I pretested a chunk of the original list and its too easy). I ask my kids to spell out words in the original list without having to write them down. If we come across words that they don't know how to spell, we will tack them on to the advanced list. I wish she had an "intermediate list" as well.

Great idea.....I will think of doing this with my 5th grader....I may have to tack on some words towards the end.  It just wouldn't feel right giving my 2nd and 5th grader the same words! :001_huh:   I will most likely use the program as it is with my 2nd grader!  Thank you!

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So I actually have a slightly different version of the Advanced spelling lists, but what you linked to may be even better . . . at the time I started, we were a bit ahead of the release speed of the alternative list, so I emailed them and they sent me a pdf of the whole alternative list set. It's formatted like the LOE book, and has only 15 words per list. So the lists you linked seem to include those words, plus more. I think they are fine, if your dd can sit through a 25 word list . . . or you could break it up. That seems like a lot for one sitting.

 

Yes, we do spelling on Mondays, so we do one lesson per week. (we do other LA stuff on the other days - vocab, grammar, etc.) She has a notebook, and one section is for writing down the spelling rules, and another section is for writing down the spelling list. I use the whiteboard to go over the phonograms in the lessons, and pretty much use the lesson's script to let her discover the spelling rule, which she then copies in her notebook. Then we do the spelling list, she writes in her notebook and I write on the whiteboard. Like I said, we skip the rest of the lesson, as she's past that level in grammar, writing, etc.

 

I'm not planning on buying anything else at this point for dd7, she has a workbook and we have the phonogram cards and I have the TM as a pdf on the laptop. We've just started, and she doesn't really like doing it - my kids are not big fans of workbooks - but this is the one thing that I'm going to try to persist in completing with her, like it or not. She can read fine, but her phonics instruction thus far has been spotty at best. I'm planning on taking the "nibbled to death by ducks" approach SWB describes, and just work on it for ~10 minutes a day, doing however much we get done each day, and not worrying about scheduling/finishing in any specific time. I might eventually stop doing the dictation/composition parts if I feel they are redundant with WWE, but I really want to get through all the phonogram and spelling stuff with dd7 now, rather than waiting and having it take up time when she's older.

 

I hope that's clear - I'm pretty minimalist when it comes to bells & whistles of curricula, so I'm using the bare minimum with this, but hopefully that will work out ok. It's been fine with dd10 so far.

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Chrysalis Academy:  Is the pdf list of alt. spelling words something you are allowed to share?  I agree with 25 words being quite a bit since my dd is use to the 15 spelling words in phonetic zoo.  If it was a freebie and you don't mind sharing, I'd love to look at it!  Thank you, thank you for your help!!

 

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Rose, do you have your 7 year old also write out spelling rules?

 

No, I don't - we just go over them orally at this point.  I don't want to overload her with writing, and she is filling out the whole workbook.  We're just starting, though . . .

 

With my 10 yo, the primary purpose is spelling (and making sure she really gets the phonics, because she wasn't taught that explicitly in ps).  With my 7 yo, this is her main LA.

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Chrysalis Academy:  Is the pdf list of alt. spelling words something you are allowed to share?  I agree with 25 words being quite a bit since my dd is use to the 15 spelling words in phonetic zoo.  If it was a freebie and you don't mind sharing, I'd love to look at it!  Thank you, thank you for your help!!

 

Why don't you start by emailing Denise/LOE and asking if they will send you the advanced spelling list pdf?  That way it's all clean, and you are getting it straight from the source . . . if you can't get it from them, check with me again.  I can't imagine that I'd be violating anything by sharing it, as they sent it to me freely.  I could email and ask them, too.  They are great about responding to emails.

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  • 4 weeks later...

So I actually have a slightly different version of the Advanced spelling lists, but what you linked to may be even better . . . at the time I started, we were a bit ahead of the release speed of the alternative list, so I emailed them and they sent me a pdf of the whole alternative list set. It's formatted like the LOE book, and has only 15 words per list. So the lists you linked seem to include those words, plus more. I think they are fine, if your dd can sit through a 25 word list . . . or you could break it up. That seems like a lot for one sitting.

 

Yes, we do spelling on Mondays, so we do one lesson per week. (we do other LA stuff on the other days - vocab, grammar, etc.) She has a notebook, and one section is for writing down the spelling rules, and another section is for writing down the spelling list. I use the whiteboard to go over the phonograms in the lessons, and pretty much use the lesson's script to let her discover the spelling rule, which she then copies in her notebook. Then we do the spelling list, she writes in her notebook and I write on the whiteboard. Like I said, we skip the rest of the lesson, as she's past that level in grammar, writing, etc.

 

I'm not planning on buying anything else at this point for dd7, she has a workbook and we have the phonogram cards and I have the TM as a pdf on the laptop. We've just started, and she doesn't really like doing it - my kids are not big fans of workbooks - but this is the one thing that I'm going to try to persist in completing with her, like it or not. She can read fine, but her phonics instruction thus far has been spotty at best. I'm planning on taking the "nibbled to death by ducks" approach SWB describes, and just work on it for ~10 minutes a day, doing however much we get done each day, and not worrying about scheduling/finishing in any specific time. I might eventually stop doing the dictation/composition parts if I feel they are redundant with WWE, but I really want to get through all the phonogram and spelling stuff with dd7 now, rather than waiting and having it take up time when she's older.

 

I hope that's clear - I'm pretty minimalist when it comes to bells & whistles of curricula, so I'm using the bare minimum with this, but hopefully that will work out ok. It's been fine with dd10 so far.

Hi Rose!  It's me again.....I'm having a hard time scheduling out LOE using advanced spelling list for dd 5th.  I know I should probably not schedule LOE in my planner, as dd may move in a faster or slower pace.  I really, for my sanity, just want an idea of how many and what to do on certain days of the week. 

If I do the below for Day 1 ......what should I have her do independently the rest of the 3-4 days?  We will review phonograms each day to solidify...should we go over together the spelling list again or should she do this independently?  I was able to get the advanced spelling list pdf with the 15 words....I printed and coil bound it for dd to read. 

 

Day 1:  Introduce Lesson: Go over new phonograms....review phonograms with flash cards....dictate phonograms to dd and have her write them in her notebook.  Exploring Sounds....Spelling Rules (write in notebook)....Go over Spelling List words, write in notebook.

 

Also, do you think it's necessary to have more than one set of phonogram cards if you are using LOE with 2 children?

Thanks in advance for your guidance!

J

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Well, I don't think I'm gonna be much help - what you describe in Day 1 is all I do with my dd10 for LOE.  It's really just a spelling/phonics supplement for us, we do other LA things the other days of the week. We do MCT for vocab & grammar, and WWS for writing, so I don't use those parts of LOE with her.

 

I am planning on doing the whole program with my 2nd grader, but I haven't started yet, so I don't have any particular insight on how that might work, scheduling it, etc. - other than, I'm not planning on scheduling it, I'm just planning on working through it each day for at least 10-15 min, and until we get to a logical stopping point/her eyes glaze over, then pick up the next day wherever we left off.  It'll take how long it takes.

 

Because they don't work together on it, one set of cards is adequate.  I don't even use the cards with dd10, we just write the day's phonograms/lesson on the whiteboard.

 

Sorry I can't be more helpful . . . 

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Fwiw I am doing LoE w/ 2 and I only have 1 set of flashcards but 2 sets of game cards. So far for ds for scheduling I have been looking ahead to try and make the work fairly even for each day. I like to have an activity for phonogram practice, spelling work, and grammar each day pairing up items so that I don't do 2 writing heavy activities in one day.

 

For ex)

Day 1- phonogram quiz- composition exercise

Day 2- Spelling rules-from the whiteboard- analyzing words and rules- phonogram game w/ dd

Day 3- Spelling list- grammar work

Day 4- Dictation phrases-editing work

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I just went through our lesson for next week,11, to schedule out what we are doing each day. I'm not doing everything w/ him but most things. We did the advanced lists for the first few weeks, the spelling activities and dictation are still worthwhile even when doing advanced lists imo as they work on the rules learned in the current and previous lesson and help w/ review. As we are just starting MCT Island now I like some of the LoE grammar work for a bit of a practice and hitting the info from another angle. As we get deeper we might discontinue but the grammar doesn't feel redundant as of yet as we are just starting Grammar island. It has punctuation and editing practice as well which is not really emphasized in MCT.

 

I would think that in order to utilize this most effectively you will want to go through yourself to see which activities you think will be worthwhile for each of your students.

 

Lesson 11: TM-Teacher's Manual- SM: Student Manual

Monday:

TM- pg. 117-8- Introducing Phonograms/ pg. 126-8 Grammar Review

SM- 11.1,11.2, Identifying parts of speech: 11.8

 

Tuesday:

TM- pg. 118 Exploring Sounds(whiteboard work)- pg. 127-128

SM-`11.3,11.4, 11.7; Sentence Fragments: 11.9- 11.10

 

Wednesday:

TM pg. 124-125 List 11; pg. 130-1 S-V agreement

SM List 11; S-V agreement: 11.12

 

Thursday:

TM: pg 132 dictation

SM 11.13

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Thank you ladies for helping out!

 

I think the first week for both dd and ds we will work on the phonograms A-Z and just talk about how the program works...talk to dd about what will be expected of her to complete daily.  They may move fast through the A-Z phonograms but it's a good starting point.  I am going to have dd keep a spelling binder, spelling journal, & small spelling box with review spelling cards/mastered spelling cards.  I'll be following the script somewhat in LOE book but dd will be using the 15 Advanced Word list that I had coil bound for her.  Day 1 will be a one on one lesson and the rest of the week will mostly be independent with just a 5-10 minute Mom time.  I used some of the spelling activities that LOE schedules with the 25 adv. spelling words online  Here is what I think dd will be accomplishing each day in LOE for spelling:

 

Day 1:  Work w/Mom: Intro & practice phonograms, Explore Sounds, Spelling Rule/Spelling Journal as needed, Dictate 15 adv. spelling words & analyze.

 

Day 2:  Review phonograms w/ Mom, write spelling words on index cards while sounding the word out & file them in Spelling Box under "review words" tab.

 

Day 3:  Go over Rules, phonogram dictation practice w/Mom, practice the words by writing descriptive phrases w/2-3 spelling words.  Write as many as you can.

 

Day 4:  Practice writing the spelling words divided into syllables, mark vowels & underline any words that have 2 letters working together.  Beside each marked word, write the whole word in cursive.

 

Day 5:  Phonogram Quiz, Spelling Quiz, and optional games.  For words missed, rewrite the missed part in a different color.  Keep missed spelling cards in the review section of your box & file the rest under "mastered words" tab.

 

We will see in a couple weeks how this will work....hopefully not too exhausting for her.

Thanks again to you ladies for chiming in and giving advice! 

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