Can I try and explain the modesty issue?

[Mrs Mungo]

While we do have modesty standards (nothing drastic) in our family, I certainly don't want my girls to grow up thinking they have to dress like nuns to earn respect from men. I also don't want my son blaming all of his feelings, responses, actions on girls just walking around minding their own business. He has the capability to turn his head if something is too "distracting."

 

 

Agreed.

 

That sounds nice. Really. But have you ever seen a grown adult man leer at your young daughter? We were at a stop light and I noticed the homeless man standing there staring in the window at my 11-year-old daughter. I guarantee you she was not dressed immodestly. I had a visceral reaction to that. Now that I have a pubescent daughter, I cannot imagine not caring if she were exposing her breasts and nipples for grown men to look at in that way.

 

First, it's not about *exposing* anything. A young girl wearing a shirt isn't exposing anything. Second, in less inhibited societies, men aren't raised to see things that way. It's not a big deal to see a young girl topless at the Schwimmbad in Germany, so *it's not a big deal.* You still need to leave room for the fact that people on this board are living all over the globe.

 

Yes, I've seen that, and I find it disgusting. There is a middle ground also on laying it all at the foot of the girl and giving her absolutely zero responsibility to dress in a way that keeps her sense of self intact. Showing everything to everybody is not conducive to a healthy self respect, IMNSHO.

 

 

I think you are in a very different place with this issue than some other people. First, it is wrong to assume that girls not dressing MODESTLY (which is a charged word) are necessarily dressing IMMODESTLY and...well...I can't even puzzle out any way to reply to the bit about self respect because you are coming it from such a different place than I am.

 

 

This is why I think its ridiculous to dress ourselves based on what men will think/feel/whatever. A girl could be covered in clothes from head to toe and something she does could make a teenage boy see it as a "stumbling block." Remember that old saying that boys think about shhhex every 7 seconds? Yeah, kind of like that. lol.

 

So no removing layers, even if you are smoldering. While we are at it, dont eat a popsicle... or a banana... or... anything. Dont move, dont breathe!

 

Okay so Im obviously kidding on some of these but good grief. It can all just get ridiculous pretty quick.

 

 

Exactly. This is what I'm saying. Have you read the Sherlock Holmes books where Watson often notices a "well-turned ankle" as a woman steps into a carriage?

[Mrs Mungo]

 

This was another issue I wanted to bring up. As far as men like that who are looking at your daughter/child pervertedly, no amount of covering up or dressing modestly will deter them.

 

 

 

This is very true too.

[I.Dup.]

:huh:

 

I think you're reading way too much into the bra. By your logic, a developing girl who doesn't want to wear a bra has no self-respect? I don't buy that.

 

And... they're just "nipples."

 

 

FWIW I keep addressing the bra issue because I keep being questioned on it.

 

If a girl were never taught that visible nipples were problematic, would she still feel self-conscious? Should she? If she were taught, but later rejected that teaching, should she feel self-conscious? Have you ever rejecting something you were taught in childhood was "true" because as you matured, you realized that teaching didn't really explain things as well as it should?

 

 

I have never known a girl not aware of her changing bodies. Also, developing breasts hurt. Often, bras are more comfortable during this period of time. It's not even solely about how the girl feels about it, she will notice more stares, looks, teasing, extra attention, etc.

 

I do not think it is healthy for girls to seek or enjoy attention from strange men (strangers, men they don't know) based on their bodies or what they are wearing. The reason I do not think it is healthy is because I think it creates an unneeded fixation on our physical bodies, which I believe, based on personal and spiritual beliefs, is unhealthy and harmful. Obviously if you do not have the same moral/personal/spiritual beliefs you will not feel the same way. I think women are so much more than their bodies, and overly fixating on our bodies and our sexual assets is not conducive to true self respect, imo.

 

Also, there is a big difference between red lipstick or high heels and what I'm referring to.

 

 

This was another issue I wanted to bring up. As far as men like that who are looking at your daughter/child pervertedly, no amount of covering up or dressing modestly will deter them.

 

 

I agree. But these men don't look at these young girls thinking of their pretty eyes. Showing more won't prevent, but it does invite.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

I agree. But these men don't look at these young girls thinking of their pretty eyes. Showing more won't prevent, but it does invite.

 

 

No. It doesn't. I really think you should try reading Lolita.

[jentancalann]

why does covering one's body automatically mean that one is ashamed of it? why do we think that if there is a part of our body we like that we must show it off? that is the opposite of humility. 1 Peter 5:5 "...clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble." now, if you aren't a Christian, I totally get how this verse doesn't mean much to you and won't affect your choices, but for those of us who claim to follow the Lord, I just don't get why we would have so little regard for what we expose to the world. I understand that some churches push covering up for the wrong reasons- I've seen it myself- so I see why some are passionate about the subject. but can we also be passionate about what modesty really is, instead of screaming to the world that we'll wear whatever we dang well please thank-you-very-much? it is an issue of the heart, nothing more.

[albeto]

That sounds nice. Really. But have you ever seen a grown adult man leer at your young daughter? We were at a stop light and I noticed the homeless man standing there staring in the window at my 11-year-old daughter. I guarantee you she was not dressed immodestly.

 

 

Staring does not equal mentally having sex with. Mentally having sex with someone isn't equal to forcing that person to have sex. Fantasies are victimless "crimes." If she was not dressed immodestly, then clearly her choice of clothing had nothing to do with it - it didn't protect her from his noticing her.

[I.Dup.]

 

No. It doesn't. I really think you should try reading Lolita.

 

 

you know how I feel about those books :p

 

 

 

Staring does not equal mentally having sex with. Mentally having sex with someone isn't equal to forcing that person to have sex. Fantasies are victimless "crimes." If she was not dressed immodestly, then clearly her choice of clothing had nothing to do with it - it didn't protect her from his noticing her.

 

 

I do know what you both mean. I shared that to point out that if she was leered at just being a sweet little girl, I think it would attract even more undue attention from various types if she were to go out as an attractive young girl who is also exposing large amounts of her body. If you don't think grown men will notice and be turned on by young girls (teens, young adults) wearing little clothing, well, I don't know what to say to that. As my daughter's main protector and mentor, I do feel it is my job to lead her away from that as much as possible. :)

[Mrs Mungo]

you know how I feel about those books :p

 

 

"Those" books? Classics? What do you mean? Aren't we mostly classical educators? Books exist to give us information and experiences that we would not have in our own lives. Lolita is one of those books for a very good reason.

[I.Dup.]

 

"Those" books? Classics? What do you mean? Aren't we mostly classical educators? Books exist to give us information and experiences that we would not have in our own lives. Lolita is one of those books for a very good reason.

 

 

sorry, I thought you'd remember my long thread about books that include children being victimized sexually. That is what I was referring to.

[kitten18]

 

No. It's really about much more than that. Have you seen this site?

http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse

 

It's a site where men and boys vote on what is a "stumbling block" issue so that girls can make better decisions. Let me give you some examples.

 

It is a stumbling block when swimsuit ties stick out from under clothing (e.g. tied around the neck).

Thirty-five percent of men and boys who voted agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

It is okay to expose the stomach when wearing a swimsuit.

Nearly 60% of men/boys disagreed or strongly disagreed with this statement.

 

Seeing a girl take off a pullover (i.e. a shirt that must be pulled over the head) is a stumbling block, even if she is wearing a modest shirt underneath.

Nearly 40% of men/boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

Leotards, sheer skirts and tutus in theatre or dance performances are immodest.

Over 35% of men boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

Seeing a girl stretching (e.g. arching the back, reaching the arms back, and sticking out the chest) is a stumbling block.

Over 56% of men/boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

You have less respect for an immodest girl than for a modest one.

An astounding 75% of men/boys agreed with this statement, which is SHAMEFUL, IMO.

 

This is what you get when you make every bit of attraction a sin that is laid at the doorstep of the attractive girl. That is the problem.

 

That is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. Gah.

[Mrs Mungo]

sorry, I thought you'd remember my long thread about books that include children being victimized sexually. That is what I was referring to.

 

 

There are a lot of those books that I don't like. But, I really think Lolita could open some people's eyes about how such men view *themselves* and how they excuse their behaviors. I think it would help you see that nothing a girl does actively invites such men. That is in their heads.

[HRAAB]

why does covering one's body automatically mean that one is ashamed of it? why do we think that if there is a part of our body we like that we must show it off? that is the opposite of humility. 1 Peter 5:5 "...clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble." now, if you aren't a Christian, I totally get why you wouldn't care about what you show off, but for those of us who claim to follow the Lord, I just don't get why we would have so little regard for what we expose to the world. I understand that some churches push covering up for the wrong reasons- I've seen it myself- so I see why some are passionate about the subject. but can we also be passionate about what modesty really is, instead of screaming to the world that we'll wear whatever we dang well please thank-you-very-much? it is an issue of the heart, nothing more.

 

 

What? Did you really mean to make that kind of a blanket statement? There are plenty of non-Christians on this board, and none of them are promoting that. Or are we back to 'only Christians are moral'?

[charcat13]

 

That is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. Gah.

 

 

Agreed. Surfing around the link to the survey is really irritating me.

[Mrs Mungo]

why does covering one's body automatically mean that one is ashamed of it? why do we think that if there is a part of our body we like that we must show it off?

 

Are we actually reading the same threads?

 

that is the opposite of humility. 1 Peter 5:5 "...clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

 

How do you think it is humble to tell *other people* how they should live or dress?

 

now, if you aren't a Christian, I totally get why you wouldn't care about what you show off, but for those of us who claim to follow the Lord, I just don't get why we would have so little regard for what we expose to the world. I understand that some churches push covering up for the wrong reasons- I've seen it myself- so I see why some are passionate about the subject. but can we also be passionate about what modesty really is, instead of screaming to the world that we'll wear whatever we dang well please thank-you-very-much? it is an issue of the heart, nothing more.

 

 

Yes, it is an issue of the heart. Different cultures, different families, different people have different standards. You can't place your standards on someone else and call them immodest when you could be arrested in some countries for wearing what you wear on a daily basis. It just doesn't work.

[mom2scouts]

I remember going to a VBS with a friend in about 7th grade. The entire time we were segregated by sex and lectured about modesty and how women should dress to avoid tempting men, so I can probably figure out the denomination. First let me say that I appreciate modesty because I don't want to see too much of anyone's body if they aren't my husband or small child. I also tend to dress very modestly because it's more comfortable for me. However, I don't buy the "men are so visual and you are making them sin" stuff. Heck, *I* am visual, so are men causing me to sin when they go shirtless or wear tight pants?

[FaithManor]

I'm just going to say this. Just because a male looks in the direction of a female, does not mean he's thinkin' s*x. He's probably thinking, "I wonder where on earth my train ticket is? Why did I eat garlic for lunch? Oh crud, the light changed, I'm never going to get across this intersection! I can't believe I got a D on my calc exam."

 

Every time you look and somewhere in your field of vision a male happens, are you thinkin' "Good golly miss molly, that's a seriously s*xy dude! I think I'll fantasize now!"???? I doubt it. There are a lot of times we assume people are looking at us and thinking about us when nothing could be farther from the truth. I've been known to stare off into the distance at Barnes and Nobles after an hour of grading music theory assignments. Many times, when I've come to from my reverie - mostly induced due to too many people being told that good part writing does not include endless measures of MOVING OCTAVES AND NO HARMONY who then did.it.anyway. (whew, glad I got that off my chest) - and someone of the opposite gender just happened to be in my field of "coma". I hope they didn't think I was in the middle of a mental p*rn flick including them, because well, I was mostly tired of theory students not putting an effort into their work! I think it's that way for far more people than we give credit.

 

As for the "teenage boys think about sex every 7 seconds". That's baloney. I know NO boy who could pull off a decent grade on his algebra homework or score a 30 on the ACT if his thoughts were constantly interuppted with "There's a hot babe, I think I'll mentally undress her!" all.the.live.long.day. Boys are not male goats in rut.

 

As for the goats, male goats are only in rut for a short period of time and the rest of the season, they are quite nice. So, if we can give some benefit of the doubt to goats, possibly we should consider it for male humans.

 

That said, we should all just agree to disagree in love or stop on over to the other thread for a good laugh! Bill knows how to write lyrics!

 

Faith

[jentancalann]

 

What? Did you really mean to make that kind of a blanket statement? There are plenty of non-Christians on this board, and none of them are promoting that. Or are we back to 'only Christians are moral'?

 

I apologize. no, I was not thinking that way. only that that Bible verse doesn't hold weight to those who don't follow it. i'm sorry.

[nmoira]

I worry sometimes because my children are girls for some of the reasons discussed in this threasd, but I think that the answer lies in our speaking up and making an effort to let them know we have their backs. I hope my daughters won't be too intimidated or "polite" to call out bad behaviour when they see it. No one should think they are expected to take it.

 

This is something that has been on my mind a lot and came to a head as I cried tears of anger reading this blog post by a 14yo girl, called Dealing With It.

http://www.genevieve...ealing-with-it/

[BrookValley.]

why does covering one's body automatically mean that one is ashamed of it? why do we think that if there is a part of our body we like that we must show it off? that is the opposite of humility. 1 Peter 5:5 "...clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble." now, if you aren't a Christian, I totally get why you wouldn't care about what you show off, but for those of us who claim to follow the Lord, I just don't get why we would have so little regard for what we expose to the world. I understand that some churches push covering up for the wrong reasons- I've seen it myself- so I see why some are passionate about the subject. but can we also be passionate about what modesty really is, instead of screaming to the world that we'll wear whatever we dang well please thank-you-very-much? it is an issue of the heart, nothing more.

 

 

As a non-Christian, I'd be interested in some clarification on that bolded statement, myself.

 

And I thought that the quote referenced modesty as not flaunting material wealth and had nothing to do with how much skin you show.

 

ETA: I just now saw your response to a similar question; thanks.

[jentancalann]

Are we actually reading the same threads?

 

I fully admit to not following each and every post in each and every thread. i'm sure there are whole threads i have missed. i just don't spend that much time here. however, I have interpreted some of the posts to mean that teaching a girl to cover herself leads to being self-conscious. maybe it is my faulty interpretation, but that is what came across to me.

 

How do you think it is humble to tell *other people* how they should live or dress?

 

i make it a point to never tell anyone how to dress. i promise. you have no idea what my definition of modesty even is, right? isn't that one of the issues?

 

Yes, it is an issue of the heart. Different cultures, different families, different people have different standards. You can't place your standards on someone else and call them immodest when you could be arrested in some countries for wearing what you wear on a daily basis. It just doesn't work.

 

[Slartibartfast]

On that modesty survey some of the results are bizarre

 

Earrings are NEVER a stumbling block

 

Nearly 20% disagreed or strongly disagreed?

 

Barefeet are NOT a stumbling block

 

10% disagreed

 

Anklets (a bracelet on the ankle) draw too much attention to the leg.

 

Over 20% agreed!

 

A purse with the strap diagonally across the bust draws too much attention to the bust

 

47% of men agreed or strongly agreed with that. Really??

 

Girls should always wear clothing that show little body definition (e.g., jumpers or loose dresses)

 

Most guys disagreed with that but 16.9% agreed or strongly agreed.

[bolt.]

Actually that quote doesn't deal with clothing at all. Clothing is a metaphor in the passage.

 

It means, "Humility towards one another should be (a) visible, (B) daily, and © cover all your actions -- it's an attitude you put on, kind of like clothing. If you operate without humility you should feel like you spent the day lacking clothing in public. You know how it is: 'God is lavish in blessing humble people, but he has been known to act 'against' proud people.' "

 

It means "put on interpersonal humility like your daily clothing" -not- "when you put on your daily clothing, make humble choices about those clothes"

 

("Humility! Don't leave home without it.")

[jentancalann]

As a non-Christian, I'd be interested in some clarification on that bolded statement, myself.

 

And I thought that the quote referenced modesty as not flaunting material wealth and had nothing to do with how much skin you show.

 

ETA: I just now saw your response to a similar question; thanks.

 

I can't get my italics off! just fyi- windows 8rt is not a good platform for twtm forums! anyway, i used that quote for purposes of humility, not modesty. he is actually addressing young men in the church. the beginning says "you younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you (meaning the elders he just addressed as well), clothe yourselves with humility..."

[MommaOfalotta]

 

 

As for the "teenage boys think about sex every 7 seconds". That's baloney. I know NO boy who could pull off a decent grade on his algebra homework or score a 30 on the ACT if his thoughts were constantly interuppted with "There's a hot babe, I think I'll mentally undress her!" all.the.live.long.day. Boys are not male goats in rut.

 

 

 

As for that quote, I for one was not claiming it to be true. I was simply saying teenage boys are hormonal. I dont think anyone actually believes that saying to be true.

 

Also, theres a difference in someone gazing at someone while thoughts being on something else, and leering. Its obvious when someone is "checking you out." Im not saying every man looking at a woman is thinking sexual thoughts. Im specifically talking about those that are, and more specifically those that are looking this way at young girls.

[Slartibartfast]

I can't get my italics off! just fyi- windows 8rt is not a good platform for twtm forums! anyway, i used that quote for purposes of humility, not modesty. he is actually addressing young men in the church. the beginning says "you younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you (meaning the elders he just addressed as well), clothe yourselves with humility..."

 

 

Try Chrome. It seems to work nicer with Windows 8.

[Mrs Mungo]

If you don't think grown men will notice and be turned on by young girls (teens, young adults) wearing little clothing, well, I don't know what to say to that. As my daughter's main protector and mentor, I do feel it is my job to lead her away from that as much as possible. :)

 

I think they can be turned on or not either way. I think clothing is at least somewhat irrelevant. It probably makes a difference that your oldest dd is 11 and mine is 17.

[Retired]

I only read the ops post. I grew up with the same type of religious upbringing. I pretty much wrote off God and all things religious and embraced a secular culture and dress. I had such low self esteem and worth do to the type of religious instruction. My new secular world didn't really show I had self esteem but it made me feel sexy and acceptable. I wore the 80's 90's club clothes. The large hair, heavy make-up and strapless spandex and leather. LOL I felt like I looked hot and guess what I like the male attention and wasn't thinking about sin or anything. I was doing what comes natural wanting male attention. I wasn't thinking wow I'm making every man lust. I was just wow they notice me it felt good. I was enjoying life for the first time not being quilted and scared for my soul if I didn't follow the religious rules. I don't attend the same church I grew up with but I did find God or he found me. I have a relationship with him not a church. I want join a church. I never saw a positive thing come from it. I still have women especially when I started homeschooling that had all the judgment of what was acceptable Christian dress and behavior. Guess what I didn't fit in which was so much much like high school all over again. LOL I will say that I'm a fundamental Christian and believe the bible. But I also feel that each Christian's dress modesty or not should be a internal conviction of the holy spirit. These convictions can and will be different for each woman or man. I personally as an adult Christian women wear shorts (no butt cheeks) but know many Christian women than would only wear capris or skirts. They are friends of mind that respect that I don't have the same spiritual call. I do not dress in those skin tight t-shirt that are style now. I choose loose t-shirts. I wear a bikini when at the beach. I wouldn't wear it if I had the church Sunday school over for swim social (I live on a lake) I pretty much will wear short/shirts over my suit. I just don't feel appropriate or comfortable being in a swim suit in front of my pastor. I can tell you that those ladies that feel that their personal walk with God leads them to be more convicted of their clothing than I respect that but also I would expect the same respect that you wouldn't think I was a Jezebel trying to seduce all men because I choose the way I dress. Just saying that the modesty issues goes both ways. The ladies that didn't grow up with ridged dress guides wouldn't understand the internal struggles of that type of upbringing. I still hear my dads voice calling me a tramp and slut because I dressed like every other teen girl. I do wish that the young women of today didn't feel like they have to have everything hang out to attract men. I've learned as I matured that yes men like skin but they are also drawn to a bright smile and easy personality (just saying) The nature of men and women are to be drawn to each other. The physical sexual attraction can happen through a conversation. The lack or exposure of skin doesn't stop what nature intended.

[Joanne]

Huh? Did I say anything about points A to B? Private parts are private, that we agree on, so do we get as close to making them not private as possible? I don't get that. Bras go along with self respect in a growing girl developing breasts. I certainly didn't want to show my nipple stubs when I was developing, I would guess that's pretty normal. As her mother, I have taught my daughter to wear a bra because, um, nipple stubs are really obvious and draw undue attention. So are nipples and bouncing, flapping breasts, which is why in our culture we wear bras. If we were in Africa, I'd be all for going around topless, but in our culture it draws a lot of attention to the chestal area, lol. It's really not a big deal to find and put on a comfortable bra, sorry, I don't buy that.

 

As for your last paragraph, well, that's one way of looking at it I guess.

 

 

 

The emphasis and focus on breast buds and nipple status is purely a cultural parenting perspective. There is nothing inherently tying bra use to self worth, dignity, or other character traits.

 

OP, I read your post. I am guessing that the info is not new to many readers here. I knew that as part of the subcultural history.

 

Directed towards other thoughts shared in this (and other) threads, I do read and comprehend other viewpoints. I still wholeheartedly believe that "modesty" as we are discussing it is a patriarchical and legalsitic and indoctrinated viewpoint. I believe that as strongly and as validly as those who vehemently disagree with me and insist their choice of modesty is informed, and does not have a power differential.

 

Lastly, I find the emphasis on lust, sex, and passion in major world religions and philosophic thought to be mostly life-diminishing and patronizing and makes a mockery of the higher power creator being revered.

[Miss Marple]

I'm just going to say this. Just because a male looks in the direction of a female, does not mean he's thinkin' s*x. He's probably thinking, "I wonder where on earth my train ticket is? Why did I eat garlic for lunch? Oh crud, the light changed, I'm never going to get across this intersection! I can't believe I got a D on my calc exam."

 

Thanks, Faith. I'm with men 90% of the time (only female in the family) and I can honestly say that what we (women) think they are thinking is very likely vastly different from what they are really thinking. I cannot count the times I've made assumptions only to find out just how wrong I was. I think it's awfully judgmental and arrogant to assume that someone looking in your (collective) daughter's direction is "leering". I think too many women are hyper focused on the sexuality of the male of the species. Honestly how can anyone teach their daughters about healthy male/female relationships when they have such odd ideas of men. And the poor sons of these folk! I cannot imagine the guilt heaped upon them through their pre-teen and teen years for what is very normal and God-given.

[Rebel Yell]

<snipped>

 

We all have our personal ideas of conceit and vanity, and of propriety. For example, propriety in speech and conduct: My dear friend thinks it's funny for her family to fart and to tell fart jokes at the dinner table; I think it is not proper and discourage my children from doing so, but I don't care if they do so elsewhere; my sister does not allow her children to tell fart jokes at all because she thinks it's not classy. Meh. To each his own. I might even say that I think my sister is silly, or that I think my friend is crass (though I would say neither because I don't believe they are those things) but I wouldn't dream of thinking that they should change their values based on my opinions, nor would I expect either of them to conform to my expectations of propriety in this area. If invited to a "no farting" party, I'd probably tell my kids it's a no farting party and ask if they felt strongly enough about farting to not attend, or if they'd like to enjoy their cousins' company without farting for the duration of the event.

 

<snipped>

Cat

 

 

:svengo: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

LOL, I'm with your sister: I hate the "f" word even MORE than I hate *THE* "F" bomb. :leaving:

 

THIS was the most hysterical thing i have read in a long time... thanks for the giggle.

 

Now, I just hope your friend doesn't tell people where to shop for "f" joke books before coming to her house. :coolgleamA:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Here is the issue for me. As an adult, I choose my own clothing. If it makes a statement about me that turns some people off, then I will own it. If I choose clothing that is inappropriate for a business setting (as I did once and was asked to go home and change as a young 20 something) then I will suffer the consequences. If I choose clothing that is inappropriate for a religious setting, I will evaluate if I want to continue in that religious setting. If I do, I will modify my dress but I will understand that it is more about culture than God. If I choose clothing that makes certain people uncomfortable then I will not be around them much, I guess. If I choose clothing that makes me feel uncomfortable or worried about having a wardrobe malfunction then I'll accept those consequences too and will adjust easily to new clothing choices. If I choose clothing that causes men to solicit me then I'll suffer the consequences there too (though the last time this happened I was wearing a wool plaid skirt and a button down blouse). If there are negative consequences to anything I do, I can either go home and change, suffer the consequences for a few hours and then get to go home and change or stand up for myself and tell the person giving me a hard time to knock it off.

 

I'm not a masochist. I won't continue to wear clothing that is uncomfortable or gives me uncomfortable interactions. BUT - the uncomfortable interaction thing only goes so far. If 99% of the people around me do not have a problem with my dress but 1% does, then I'm likely to blame their reaction on their own mind and not on my dress at all. So I will then change company, not clothing.

 

I do not see any specific commands for a specific style of dress in the Bible. I am not out soliciting men. My conscience before God is clean. I 1000% reject (no one comment on my math here) the idea that women are responsible for what goes on in a man's imagination. If I am such a temptation they can flee me like Joseph did Potiphar's wife.

 

I do shape my children's views of acceptable dress within our cultural setting. I have certain principles that I teach having to do with dressing appropriately to the venue. Other than that, I do try to teach them to wear clothing that suits their coloring, body shape, size etc. I try to help them to avoid some of the embarrassing mistakes I've made with clothing. But just as with anything, they are going to learn some of that by trial and error. I do not correct some of the choices my dd has made lately in hairstyles that I don't think are that flattering. She's learned on her own that hair plastered with hairspray is not comfortable and doesn't get the compliments that she'd like! I'm sure she'll learn some lessons on clothing that don't quite fit well too though if I can gently keep her from some embarrassment, I do. As she does for me too!

 

The thing is, I don't see that it is anyone else's business what I wear or what my kids wear. If you don't like what I'm wearing, don't look at me. If I'm breaking a law, then report me. If I'm breaking a dress code for a business then talk to HR. But since most likely I'm not, it isn't any of your business. Same for my kids. My clothing choices aren't going to somehow rub off on you and contaminate you. And neither are my children's.

 

At the same time, I don't care what you or your children wear. I will have a private opinion on whether I like your choices (we all make those judgments) but they will have more to do with whether I make a point of complimenting your dress, or asking you where you bought your shorts or trying to emulate your style (or not) and zero with what I think of you as a person. Your demeanor, your speech, your sense of humor, your personal philosophy - those are the things that will influence what I think of you. (As to snap first impressions - I have those but they don't stay once I get to know someone through conversation.)

[mommymilkies]

Honestly, I wouldn't be comfortable with my kids going to something where their skirts are measured. Mostly because I don't care what my kids wear (within reason-going around butt naked isn't an option) and I don't like anyone else making it into an issue for them. My kids wear swim suits as clothing in summer. Modesty? It's 8 bazillion degrees with 80-100% humidity here most of the summer. My kids sweat horribly already, that'd be just asking for heat exhaustion. For me, I have sensory issues. I have no fashion sense and just wear whatever I can find that fits loosely and comfortably. I don't care. I was also raised in an area where you don't stare at people, though. I'll leave the house and dh will mention that my bra is showing (like a v-neck that got stretched out from bf). I would have had no idea. I'm usually amazed other people notice, too. I find it rude to ogle. I wouldn't even notice if someone walked by me topless with a bright purple mohawk. :p

[chepyl]

All I can say is these ways of thinking are entirely foreign to me and anyone else in my life. It simply never crosses my mind. I'm also not hindered by the guilt of religion.

 

I am not "hindered by the guilt of religion." I make sure my daughter is dressed tastefully, she is 5 and we talk about not showing our panties public. Most of her skirts have shorts under them, or we put leggings under dresses. Not because I think she should cover her legs to a certain place, but because of the way she plays.

 

I wear tank tops, shorts with my swimsuit, and longer skirts or capris in the summer. I wear what is comfortable.

[MollyAnn]

No. It's really about much more than that. Have you seen this site?

http://www.therebelu...tysurvey/browse

 

It's a site where men and boys vote on what is a "stumbling block" issue so that girls can make better decisions. Let me give you some examples.

 

 

 

I was unaware of this site and not I am I am RAVING MAD!!! I am so beyond p*ssed off right now!!! There is so much going through my head and I can't even get it out I am so angry.

Is there a site where girls and women can weigh in about boys and men? Because I can comment plenty on males wearing skinny jeans with the waist half way down their butt. Actually, I wouldn't. I may think it looks stupid and it might annoy me and I may not want to see their butt, but that is my issue, not theirs!!!

 

I am so sick of men thinking they have any right to pass judgement on women and dictate to woman how they should live!!

 

 

My personal views on attire; breasts, butt, and pubic area should be covered.

I may pass silent judgement on outfits or styles of dress but that is my personal feelings and I would never seek to shame or embarrass someone for their choice.

I would however stop a friend from going out in an outfit that did not flatter her or make her change her shoes if it didn't match.

[Stellalarella]

In the midst of these modesty threads (some of which I started to read, then gave up), I heard a show on NPR about clothing and why we choose to wear what we wear and what it says about us. Link here (you can read the transcript easily).

 

I appreciated hearing anthropologists talk about clothing and our choices. (Especially because they can talk about the subject in a detached, analytical way, even though they very much enjoy the subject).

 

What I gleaned from this talk was their understanding that clothes very much have meaning and that people interpret what they see others wear all the time. Of course, someone can have their clothing misunderstood. Or someone can perfectly understand what someone is trying to say with his/her clothing.

 

I thought their example of the tie was good. Just think how emotionally charged a tie can be in an election campaign. A male candidate will wear a tie (which says, "I'm in charge") up and until the point he enters a factory.....then off comes the tie and jacket. He doesn't want to appear elite and out of touch to a blue collar crowd.

 

It's been interesting hearing folks explain their views on modesty here on the boards, but it has been even better hearing viewpoints knowing that it really is true that clothing has meaning and what we wear is definitely open to interpretation. It's something that we humans do--we interpret meaning from clothes.

 

In the small business where my son works this summer, he is there with a young man who wears shirts printed with profanity (I will caution this statement by saying, "What most people in this society think of as profanity"). One shirt uses the words MFer twice. I always think to myself, what does this young man think of himself? I wonder what he thinks of other people that have to look at his shirt throughout the day? Gosh it makes me so "happy" when my young kids get to see it too and I can hear them behind me trying to sound out the phonics of the big and bright letters. It's not my place to tell him what I think of his shirts. He might think it is completely unproblematic or he might also think that it is offensive and it delights him to wear it. I don't know.

 

But I will say that his shirts do affect me. And they do affect my son. But on we go and carry on as if the shirts were just big smiley faces. It's the world we live in--there is just no consensus about what is right.

[jhschool]

I don't believe that women are responsible for covering up in order to not tempt men.

No matter what a woman is wearing, men should be respectful and couth to them.

 

It is men's responsibility to control themselves--plus I don't believe most men are so animal-like.

Some, yes, but most men are pretty normal.

 

That said, though, I think there is another issue with modesty: self-respect and looking good.

I don't think people look very good with low-cut jeans where you can see everything.

Sometimes tank tops just look awful, especially in some settings.

I don't need to see someone's dimpled knees and thighs at a concert, thank you very much--men

or women. And I would get just as annoyed by a man wearing a low-cut shirt that showed me

half his pecs when I just want to listen to good music. Please wear something nice.

 

At the beach, wear whatever you like. I don't approve of nudism mostly because of the germs

issue--I'm not sitting there after you have sat there, or putting my water bottle down. But at

the beach when it's hot, wear whatever.

 

So, I guess I don't think it's immodest to bare skin. Sometimes it just doesn't look good.

And I think it's nicer to dress modestly in some settings. Just nicer.

[Joanne]

 

 

 

I may pass silent judgement on outfits or styles of dress but that is my personal feelings and I would never seek to shame or embarrass someone for their choice.

I would however stop a friend from going out in an outfit that did not flatter her or make her change her shoes if it didn't match.

 

Maybe I am reading this wrong? You would tell a friend how to dress? An adult?

[La Texican]

I grew up in the north east where they had ideas about modesty and now I live in the deep south, way below San Antonio. This is the endless summer they sing about. There is trashy, but there is also modest and well raised girls wearing super short shorts that are 3" below the butt, rather than 3" above the knee. It's surprising once you've seen the difference and realize there's no universal formula for decency. The tempurature stays over 100 degrees for months at a time, and around 120 for at least a couple of weeks straight for the summer. I was reading a local history book and it described how children used to wrap themselves in wet blankets and sleep on the porch because it was too hot to sleep inside at night, before electricity. So you can imagine the cultural ideas of modesty have developed differently here over the generations than they have in the northeast. Every summer I see plenty of teens/attractive young adults who are dressed, in what sounds like a paradox, simultaneously baring a lot of skin while appearing modest and conservative. Strange, I know.

 

Mrs. Mungo, they're so righteous and so raunchous at the same time, right?! OMG @ the website.

[jhschool]

I guess I'm surprised that so many homeschooling moms are so boldly against modesty. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate fundamentalist mindsets and my skin crawls at patriarchy stuff. But is it honestly healthy for young girls to go around in shorts practically exposing their butt cheeks or see-through shirts, no bra, whatever? Apart from "protecting the men" (ick) is that honoring of their self respect? That is the angle I'm coming from in teaching my daughter.

 

Girls know what they are doing, they know they have power over boys and want to use that power. Dh and I were watching Jimmy Kimmel the other night and Miley Cyrus had a concert and, um, :huh: :huh: You can't watch something like that or see what goes on with young girls who are living this way and tell me they're completely innocent and just want to be comfortable. Miley was gyrating along, humping a guy's leg to "use me, abuse me" lyrics. And she is certainly not abnormal.

 

I guess I'm getting old because I'm surprised all over again by the way young girls want to portray themselves. When I did that, I was so misguided and had zero self respect, why would it be okay for our beautiful daughters to portray themselves in that way?

I totally agree.

[shanvan]

I am growing a bit weary of all the modesty discussion.

 

:iagree:

[Miss Marple]

That is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. Gah.

 

I agree that the results are somewhat disturbing. However this survey was geared towards a certain segment of the male population - not the male population in general. In fact, the site says:

The Modesty Survey was not intended to serve as a scientific measurement of what the average man thinks about modesty. In the strictest sense, it isn't a survey, but a discussion between Christian guys and girls who care about modesty. Over 200 Christian girls submitted their questions. In less than twenty days, over 1,600 Christian guys (12 and up) responded. Close to 200,000 separate pieces of data were collected, including 25,000 text responses.

 

The fellas who would bother to take this survey are probably hyper sensitive to the issue in comparison to the average male. I know some fellas quite intimately who would not have bothered to take such a survey because they would consider it "stupid", but who are sweet, non-leering boys concerned with taming their thoughts and being accountable for their actions :)

[elegantlion]

I don't want to say that I was not aware at all, but I don't recall feeling heavily focused on these things. My breasts didn't hurt when I was a teen. I didn't wear a bra for a long time (because I don't have much of a chest). I don't recall more stares, looks, teasing, extra attention. I seriously don't recall any of this being some sort of ordeal. Even when I got my period it was kinda like..oh ok. And that was that.

 

My mother never told me to wear a bra. I think I bought myself one when I was maybe 16.

 

I'm sure everyone has different experiences so I'm not going to say I have never known anyone to think/do XYZ.

 

My only concern when I was developing was the fact I have a mole that resembles a nipple smack dab in the center of my chest in line with my boobage. I was concerned it was going to be a 3rd breast and then I'd be forced to be like that woman in Total Recall and flee to Mars.

 

Ds is 15, I'm not sure he even notices girls, much less what they're wearing or not wearing or nippleage. He knows what those are, he has them, he knows I have them because I don't always wear a bra at home, and heck even the dog and cat have them too.

[MollyAnn]

 

 

Maybe I am reading this wrong? You would tell a friend how to dress? An adult?

 

 

It was kinda of tongue in cheek.

We have all asked our friends if an outfit looks good or not. I meant that I would be honest if the outfit didn't look good and suggest something else. In my younger days I had a friend come pick me up for a night of clubbing, she was wearing a black dress, black tights, and white peep toe shoes. I made her change into a pair of my black shoes. It had nothing to do with modesty or immodesty or telling them how they should dress. I just meant that would save them from the occational bad outfit or accessory.

[Mrs Mungo]

Here is the issue for me. As an adult, I choose my own clothing. If it makes a statement about me that turns some people off, then I will own it. If I choose clothing that is inappropriate for a business setting (as I did once and was asked to go home and change as a young 20 something) then I will suffer the consequences. If I choose clothing that is inappropriate for a religious setting, I will evaluate if I want to continue in that religious setting. If I do, I will modify my dress but I will understand that it is more about culture than God. If I choose clothing that makes certain people uncomfortable then I will not be around them much, I guess. If I choose clothing that makes me feel uncomfortable or worried about having a wardrobe malfunction then I'll accept those consequences too and will adjust easily to new clothing choices. If I choose clothing that causes men to solicit me then I'll suffer the consequences there too (though the last time this happened I was wearing a wool plaid skirt and a button down blouse). If there are negative consequences to anything I do, I can either go home and change, suffer the consequences for a few hours and then get to go home and change or stand up for myself and tell the person giving me a hard time to knock it off.

 

I'm not a masochist. I won't continue to wear clothing that is uncomfortable or gives me uncomfortable interactions. BUT - the uncomfortable interaction thing only goes so far. If 99% of the people around me do not have a problem with my dress but 1% does, then I'm likely to blame their reaction on their own mind and not on my dress at all. So I will then change company, not clothing.

 

I do not see any specific commands for a specific style of dress in the Bible. I am not out soliciting men. My conscience before God is clean. I 1000% reject (no one comment on my math here) the idea that women are responsible for what goes on in a man's imagination. If I am such a temptation they can flee me like Joseph did Potiphar's wife.

 

I do shape my children's views of acceptable dress within our cultural setting. I have certain principles that I teach having to do with dressing appropriately to the venue. Other than that, I do try to teach them to wear clothing that suits their coloring, body shape, size etc. I try to help them to avoid some of the embarrassing mistakes I've made with clothing. But just as with anything, they are going to learn some of that by trial and error. I do not correct some of the choices my dd has made lately in hairstyles that I don't think are that flattering. She's learned on her own that hair plastered with hairspray is not comfortable and doesn't get the compliments that she'd like! I'm sure she'll learn some lessons on clothing that don't quite fit well too though if I can gently keep her from some embarrassment, I do. As she does for me too!

 

The thing is, I don't see that it is anyone else's business what I wear or what my kids wear. If you don't like what I'm wearing, don't look at me. If I'm breaking a law, then report me. If I'm breaking a dress code for a business then talk to HR. But since most likely I'm not, it isn't any of your business. Same for my kids. My clothing choices aren't going to somehow rub off on you and contaminate you. And neither are my children's.

 

At the same time, I don't care what you or your children wear. I will have a private opinion on whether I like your choices (we all make those judgments) but they will have more to do with whether I make a point of complimenting your dress, or asking you where you bought your shorts or trying to emulate your style (or not) and zero with what I think of you as a person. Your demeanor, your speech, your sense of humor, your personal philosophy - those are the things that will influence what I think of you. (As to snap first impressions - I have those but they don't stay once I get to know someone through conversation.)

 

 

I agree. Good post.

[Jennifer3141]

I'm getting so darn sick of the argument that every single time a man sees a woman wearing something, "risque," sex, perhaps even with a MINOR is the only place his brain goes.

 

Do you people not see how demeaning that is to both men AND women? Seriously?? These men you all seem to know are so highly sexed and unevolved that you have to wrap your daughters to the ankles??!

 

Am I just lucky in that I don't know any men like this??

 

I don't know any men like that. Do I know men who might make a dirty joke? Sure. But guess what... I tell a better dirty joke than my DH on any day of the week.

 

The other thing I don't get about this is that most of the people I see talking about modesty like this are the very same ones who think Draconian rape laws are a.o.k. May the Goddess bless your daughters if they ever make the tiniest lapse in judgment or even DON'T and end up raped themselves... The lack of compassion and love from their mothers would be horrifying.

[Guest inoubliable]

I'm getting so darn sick of the argument that every single time a man sees a woman wearing something, "risque," sex, perhaps even with a MINOR is the only place his brain goes.

 

Do you people not see how demeaning that is to both men AND women? Seriously?? These men you all seem to know are so highly sexed and unevolved that you have to wrap your daughters to the ankles??!

 

Am I just lucky in that I don't know any men like this??

 

I don't know any men like that. Do I know men who might make a dirty joke? Sure. But guess what... I tell a better dirty joke than my DH on any day of the week.

 

The other thing I don't get about this is that most of the people I see talking about modesty like this are the very same ones who think Draconian rape laws are a.o.k. May the Goddess bless your daughters if they ever make the tiniest lapse in judgment or even DON'T and end up raped themselves... The lack of compassion and love from their mothers would be horrifying.

 

 

 

I want to like this so hard. I love you bunches.

 

I'm actually a little creeped out that so many posters here know men who would look at a pre-teen child in a tanktop and decide that's sexy. Um. That's not cool. And if I knew a man like that, or a man who would be turned on to the point of battling the urge to RAPE someone, I sure as shit wouldn't be married to them or allow them around me or my family! FFS. That's an awful weird set of priorities when the need to wear a sweater so that a man, any man, doesn't feel the urge to rape me trumps not hanging out with a creepazoid like that anyway.

 

And, you do tell a good dirty joke. :001_wub:

[gardenmom5]

Staring does not equal mentally having sex with. Mentally having sex with someone isn't equal to forcing that person to have sex. Fantasies are victimless "crimes." If she was not dressed immodestly, then clearly her choice of clothing had nothing to do with it - it didn't protect her from his noticing her.

 

there is a difference between noticing, staring, and leering. fantasies are not victimless - if you've ever been visually undressed by a strange man, you'd know - and it was in an expensive restaurant and I was modestly dressed (but attractively in a flattering dressy dress for a date with my dh.). the guy totally squicked me out. it squicked me out more than the guy who broke into my home and assaulted me.

As for that quote, I for one was not claiming it to be true. I was simply saying teenage boys are hormonal. I dont think anyone actually believes that saying to be true. Also, theres a difference in someone gazing at someone while thoughts being on something else, and leering. Its obvious when someone is "checking you out." Im not saying every man looking at a woman is thinking sexual thoughts. Im specifically talking about those that are, and more specifically those that are looking this way at young girls.

 

I've encountered too many young women who think that. it shows just how lacking in experience with the opposite sex they are. My son's spend far more time thinking about computers.

 

 

Personally, I wish we all dressed like they did in the 1940's. Men looked so good in hats and suits. :001_wub:

 

I haven't been following these threads, just noticed the huge amount of threads about modesty and wondered what the heck was going on. :confused1:

 

I try to respect all religions, but that doesn't mean I get it.

 

no grunge jeans (yes!) . . . but big shoulder pads? seriously?

Oh wait, you mean guys think about other things? Wow, shocking.

 

(I'm kidding of course.)

 

food.

[I.Dup.]

These men you all seem to know are so highly sexed and unevolved that you have to wrap your daughters to the ankles??!

 

Well, we all already know that you are perfect in every way! But...wha? Who said anything of the sort?

 

I'm actually a little creeped out that so many posters here know men who would look at a pre-teen child in a tanktop and decide that's sexy. Um. That's not cool. And if I knew a man like that, or a man who would be turned on to the point of battling the urge to RAPE someone,

 

what on earth? Is this referring to another thread? Edited July 4, 2013 by Moderator
Removed snark.

[Luanne]

I too am getting a bit tired of the modesty threads, but not for the same reason some of you probably are. I am tired of when someone says they think women and girls should dress modestly, several of you think that means not showing 1/4 inch of skin anywhere. There is a middle ground, you know. It doesn't have to be running around naked or not showing ANY skin at all. I also don't know how you all know exactly what a MAN thinks or feels when he sees some female half-naked running around. Are you a male?

[albeto]

there is a difference between noticing, staring, and leering. fantasies are not victimless - if you've ever been visually undressed by a strange man, you'd know - and it was in an expensive restaurant and I was modestly dressed (but attractively in a flattering dressy dress for a date with my dh.). the guy totally squicked me out. it squicked me out more than the guy who broke into my home and assaulted me.

 

 

Squicking someone out isn't a crime.