Can I try and explain the modesty issue?

[Lisa R.]

I attended a fundamentalist Christian school (I will decline to say the particular denomination so I don't offend, although those with the same background will easily figure it out) so I would like to respectfully share where I think people concerned with modesty are coming from.

 

During homeroom in seventh grade and up, all girls were made to stand so the home ec teacher could check skirt length. Every day. No mixed swimming at church camp. Same sex swimming wore the shirts. For some reason, the sleeveless shirt memo hasn't reached the school, but it was a cool climate, so perhaps this wasn't an issue.( I chuckle at those offended by co-op and church swimming dress codes here. Those are so liberal comparatively.)

 

The concern for modesty told girls and women over and again that men were visual and thus needed to be "protected" by woman. Women would help protect men from being tempted by not wearing certain clothing. These standards were carefully specified. Women were made to feel responsible for the possible lusting that could take place if they dressed inappropriatly. When girls hear this over and over growing up, an unhealthy view of men can take place. I've even heard from men that admitted, particularly as teen boys, they were barely controlled due to raging hormones and being inherently visual creatures. Hearing thus reinforced from guys makes it sound more credible. Remember: most of these kids are only getting their information from the same types of people.

 

Think of the shame and responsibility growing girls and women are inadvertently taught to have due to this teaching.

 

I do think it is so foreign to most here on the board. It is a hard thing to shake. If someone has been indoctrinated like this, think of the responsibility they feel they need to carry? It is a huge, unnecessary burden. They do truly feel that they are helping the males around them. They show they care by being very careful in the way they dress. In turn, they pass this teaching on to their children and so on.

 

I just say all this as I have such compassion on those that feel such responsibility for the actions of others. They are caught in legalism and are trying to do the right thing while being misguided. Ironically, those that are the most conservative about sex, focus on sex more than most people. While focusing so much on purity/virginity/modesty can unwittingly being perverted as everything, even innocent things, are made to be all about sex.

 

Just an insider's view here.

 

Disclaimer: still a conservative Christian, but one who is freed from legalism and wears what she wants without fear.

[Orthodox6]

To begin with, I am not addressing the OP. Just am reacting to reams of "stuff" posted to the boards recently.

 

I have not been "indoctrinated" by any set of values. Nor do I embrace" legalism". I am an intelligent woman who thinks for herself and makes her own choices. Speaking boldly, I find it offensive to blithely sneer at the conservative values of other people as "indoctrination", "legalism", "patriarchal", "hidebound", and so forth. There is no honesty to the claims of "equal rights for all viewpoints", either here, or throughout the world. We -- and that means everyone, including those whose views I reject -- have to yield to whatever be the loudest squeaky wheel and swallow our understandings of truth, unless we are willing to be ridiculed.

 

Had to say this. It has been simmering beneath my surface for a while.

[bolt.]

I really get the girls side of this -- just exactly as you described it. I think I hear a lot of "girls shame" because I discuss this mostly in woman-heavy contexts.

 

Recently, I've begun to muse on the real root of the lie. The real root of this lie is not on the female side. The female shame is a side effect. It is a side effect of the truly powerful and intentional way that the men/boys are shamed by a very simple error of theology. (Maybe I see it this way because I have a theological mind, and so each of us sees all the issues in light of our own gifting -- but I'm genuinely convinced that *two* wrongs are coming from one lie.)

 

The lie told to boys/men precedes the 'side effect' on women. The lie told to boys/men is that sexual attraction (visual, physical, mental or whatever) is the same thing as temptation. It is a lie that the feeling itself of a positive sexual feeling or urge is a real problem, a temptation to sin, a stumbling block, or even itself the sin of 'lust' or 'adultery of the heart'. That logic train is completely unsubstantiated, yet NO ONE who is indoctrinated this way seems able to even question it.

 

Thus boys/men have been indoctrinated that their body and mind 'just doing normal stuff' in an environment where attractive girls/women exist is a HUGE HAIRY PROBLEM. And first they are told, "You solve it." -- You refrain from having average human responses to visual stimuli that are hard wired into your bodily existence. Those things are sinful (or at least very sin-like and deeply dangerous) and you'd better avoid them at all costs. (Here are a few highly ineffective strategies to try and do a thing that can't be done. Just do the strategies and keep your shame hidden when they don't work out. If the strategies aren't working that means you are not godly.)

 

So, yeah, I can see why boys/men, once they accept ^that^ as personal theology, are easily able to slip into wondering why females (who claim to care about 'one another' in mixed gender situations) wouldn't lend a hand -- just a little effort on "their" part, and wouldn't "my" job be easier? Give a guy a helping hand, eh?

 

The first problem is not that males want females to 'share the burden' of preventing them from getting turned on by dressing with men's reactions in mind (that's the 'second problem'). The first problem is that males actually believe that 'getting turned on' is a problem in the first place. If we can solve the first problem, the second problem evaporates.

 

How do we tell men/boys that attraction is not a sin, and sexual urges are not lust? How can we tell them that it's OK that they find women enjoyable to look at? How can we teach them to do as most level-headed civilized people do and just say to themselves, "Now that's a pretty lady." -- and carry on with their day, just as they would say, "That's a pretty sunset." -- as a natural response to real beauty, with no thought towards making a momentary attraction into anything it's not. It does not need the guilt-centric focus that it tends to get. It's not something men need help to prevent, because it does not need to be prevented.

 

Star-gazing does not turn people into astronauts. Neither does a sexual attraction and/or urge bring a person to the edge of true lust or adultery. The two things are just vastly different. One is a reaction, the other is an act of will. All sins are acts of will -- and usually action too, but sometimes will alone. There is no such thing as a sin that is simply a 'reaction'. It's that easy. (In order to be 'in lust' you have to be *willing* because lust is an act of the will. A 'lustful thought' is a *willing* thought, not simply any appreciative/attracted/sensual thought.)

[Lisa R.]

To begin with, I am not addressing the OP. Just am reacting to reams of "stuff" posted to the boards recently.

 

I have not been "indoctrinated" by any set of values. Nor do I embrace" legalism". I am an intelligent woman who thinks for herself and makes her own choices. Speaking boldly, I find it offensive to blithely sneer at the conservative values of other people as "indoctrination", "legalism", "patriarchal", "hidebound", and so forth. There is no honesty to the claims of "equal rights for all viewpoints", either here, or throughout the world. We -- and that means everyone, including those whose views I reject -- have to yield to whatever be the loudest squeaky wheel and swallow our understandings of truth, unless we are willing to be ridiculed.

 

Had to say this. It has been simmering beneath my surface for a while.

 

I am glad you shared this. I, too, think we should not sneer at others deeply-founded, well-thought-out beliefs. You seem to have reached your convictions through ways other than what I described in my post. My post was not directed at you and your beliefs. Rather, it was to hopefully describe a common set of teaching that has burdened some women in those circles.

 

My hope is that people will have compassion on those women as they seek to find truth.

 

The other modesty threads have been sometimes funny, sometimes irreverent. I just wanted to start a discussion that explains how these standards sometimes (not always) come from fear.

[Lisa R.]

Dp

[I.Dup.]

I guess I'm surprised that so many homeschooling moms are so boldly against modesty. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate fundamentalist mindsets and my skin crawls at patriarchy stuff. But is it honestly healthy for young girls to go around in shorts practically exposing their butt cheeks or see-through shirts, no bra, whatever? Apart from "protecting the men" (ick) is that honoring of their self respect? That is the angle I'm coming from in teaching my daughter.

 

Girls know what they are doing, they know they have power over boys and want to use that power. Dh and I were watching Jimmy Kimmel the other night and Miley Cyrus had a concert and, um, :huh: :huh: You can't watch something like that or see what goes on with young girls who are living this way and tell me they're completely innocent and just want to be comfortable. Miley was gyrating along, humping a guy's leg to "use me, abuse me" lyrics. And she is certainly not abnormal.

 

I guess I'm getting old because I'm surprised all over again by the way young girls want to portray themselves. When I did that, I was so misguided and had zero self respect, why would it be okay for our beautiful daughters to portray themselves in that way?

[bolt.]

To begin with, I am not addressing the OP. Just am reacting to reams of "stuff" posted to the boards recently.

 

I have not been "indoctrinated" by any set of values. Nor do I embrace" legalism". I am an intelligent woman who thinks for herself and makes her own choices. Speaking boldly, I find it offensive to blithely sneer at the conservative values of other people as "indoctrination", "legalism", "patriarchal", "hidebound", and so forth. There is no honesty to the claims of "equal rights for all viewpoints", either here, or throughout the world. We -- and that means everyone, including those whose views I reject -- have to yield to whatever be the loudest squeaky wheel and swallow our understandings of truth, unless we are willing to be ridiculed.

 

Had to say this. It has been simmering beneath my surface for a while.

I'm genuinely sorry that you feel ridiculed... and some of those words you listed are certainly loaded terms.

 

It can be hard when someone says, "I believe legalism (or whatever) exists, and I consider it a problem" -- and then has to define what they mean by that, in terms that obviously include *somebody* (since if the category included nobody then it wouldn't exist). It's hard when "I" fit someone else's definition of an unflattering term, making "me" personally a part of an issue they think is a problem.

 

But it really is hard to talk about many things without sharing and debating regarding unflattering categories and what makes us consider people to be within those categories. I would hope that it isn't *quite* the same as ridicule, when it is done tactfully, though. But, in all honesty, on the internet, tact is often hard, and irony is pretty tempting. I get it -- and I'm sorry that you are apparently bearing the brunt of having an unpopular opinion on this topic at this time.

 

I hate the idea that you don't feel free to say, "I believe and live the things you have labeled 'legalism' (or whatever) and here is why I consider it reasonable, and therefore I expect my perspective to be of interest to you." <-- Those are the posts I really like. I *already* understand my own thoughts. It's when I read other people's ideas that I actually *learn* something. I'd personally consider it a favor if minority opinions choose to be brave and risk 'ridicule' (at least from time to time). I think of threads as 'opinion salad' -- sometimes you're the lettuce, and sometimes you're the olive, but it's always at least a little interesting to experience the mix.

[ajfries]

I'm so irritated by these modesty threads. Honestly. I consider myself modest. When I wear skirts they are knee length or longer. I wear sleeveless tops. I wear tank tops, (mostly around the house simply because of my comfort level). But I don't put everything I've got out there. I am conscious of what I'm showing to the world.

 

It isn't because I'm afraid of stumbling some poor, poor man who can't control his self. (Though I do agree than men are highly visual creatures--much more so than women). It's because I think it's more attractive to leave a little something to the imagination. I think it's important that my husband is the only one that knows what I look like even remotely naked. I think my body is beautiful, but enjoying it is a privilege afforded to my husband alone. And there's a lot more to me than my body; things that I'm much more proud of.

 

It seems the majority speaking have been the ultra conservative or the ultra...cheeky :) (I couldn't think of a better word). With both sides thinking the other is wrong. There is a middle ground. It doesn't have to be extreme one way or the other. And the reasons behind the argument don't have to be so unmoving.

 

I dress modestly FOR MYSELF. I'm not under any indoctrination or anybody else's "rules". I find modesty to be empowering. Much more so than a wearing a string bikini.

[Χά�ων]

 

Girls know what they are doing, they know they have power over boys and want to use that power.

And boys can (and do) say no and walk away.

[mamaraby]

Gently, I suspect the vast majority fo folks are well aware of the foundations of these beliefs. They have both heard and understood the why behind them, but simply disagree. That being said, why should those who disagree be unable to discuss amongst themselves?

 

Also, I don't understand the idea that the freedom to express one's beliefs (however sincere or deeply thought out or whatever) means that the holder of those beliefs should also be free from any criticism, sarcasam, or ridicule. Sorry, but you have the right to speak up about your beliefs and another person has a right to speak up about why they agree and in the fashion that they choose. That's what equal rights means.

 

I guess I'm surprised that so many homeschooling moms are so boldly against modesty. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate fundamentalist mindsets and my skin crawls at patriarchy stuff. But is it honestly healthy for young girls to go around in shorts practically exposing their butt cheeks or see-through shirts, no bra, whatever? Apart from "protecting the men" (ick) is that honoring of their self respect? That is the angle I'm coming from in teaching my daughter.

-snip-

I guess I'm getting old because I'm surprised all over again by the way young girls want to portray themselves. When I did that, I was so misguided and had zero self respect, why would it be okay for our beautiful daughters to portray themselves in that way?

 

Simply put, because we see the issue differently and define things like"beauty" and "self-respect" differently. Just because I might not appreciate another woman's taste or clothing choices for me personally, does not mean that they are wrong or indicative of "zero self-respect" for the other person.

[bolt.]

I guess I'm surprised that so many homeschooling moms are so boldly against modesty. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate fundamentalist mindsets and my skin crawls at patriarchy stuff. But is it honestly healthy for young girls to go around in shorts practically exposing their butt cheeks or see-through shirts, no bra, whatever? Apart from "protecting the men" (ick) is that honoring of their self respect? That is the angle I'm coming from in teaching my daughter.

Yes, I absolutely I think it's healthy for young girls to think practically never think of their bodies

 

- To think nothing of taking of their shorts/t-shirt and running in the sprinkler in their panties at a friend's house. (Prepubescent only, I think.)

- To wear shorts for comfort and never be taught that 'from point a to point b on your legs is normal skin, but above point b on your leg is somehow different because it is marginally closer to your bottom' (I'm content with 'keep your bottom mostly to yourself')

- To be taught to wear shier fabrics in layers with something else that obscures their actual private parts

- To wear a bra if they like, or to grow to be 95 never having touched one, as women have done for hundreds of years and still do in most parts of the world

 

None of those things actually violate self respect, but that "thinking makes it so" -- I choose not to perpetuate that style of thinking to my daughters. Private parts are private. Everything else is personal style.

 

Girls know what they are doing, they know they have power over boys and want to use that power.

Yep.

 

And girls are not born with a moral compass, and generally have to grow into one as they become young women. Passing through a 'lead the boys around with your body' phase isn't some kind of crazy thing that ruins a woman forever if she does it even once. Everybody tries out various ways of exercising personal power. These things are up for chatting in my home, but it's going to be a non-judgmental chat. Wondering how sexuality can translate into personal power (and trying a few strategies) is not the same as lacking self respect. It's the same as a rich kid experimenting with how his wealth can translate into personal power, or a charismatic teen doing the same, or a brilliant teen seeing what they can do socially with that, or a musically gifted one... or whatever.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Most of the women who are posting in the modesty threads for more freedom and less censure actually dress fairly modestly at least at this stage in their life. It isn't really a matter of those who do vs. those who don't but of what people think of issues behind it.

[I.Dup.]

Yes, I absolutely I think it's healthy for young girls to think practically never think of their bodies

 

- To think nothing of taking of their shorts/t-shirt and running in the sprinkler in their panties at a friend's house. (Prepubescent only, I think.)

- To wear shorts for comfort and never be taught that 'from point a to point b on your legs is normal skin, but above point b on your leg is somehow different because it is marginally closer to your bottom' (I'm content with 'keep your bottom mostly to yourself')

- To be taught to wear shier fabrics in layers with something else that obscures their actual private parts

- To wear a bra if they like, or to grow to be 95 never having touched one, as women have done for hundreds of years and still do in most parts of the world

 

None of those things actually violate self respect, but that "thinking makes it so" -- I choose not to perpetuate that style of thinking to my daughters. Private parts are private. Everything else is personal style.

 

 

Yep.

 

And girls are not born with a moral compass, and generally have to grow into one as they become young women. Passing through a 'lead the boys around with your body' phase isn't some kind of crazy thing that ruins a woman forever if she does it even once. Everybody tries out various ways of exercising personal power. These things are up for chatting in my home, but it's going to be a non-judgmental chat. Wondering how sexuality can translate into personal power (and trying a few strategies) is not the same as lacking self respect. It's the same as a rich kid experimenting with how his wealth can translate into personal power, or a charismatic teen doing the same, or a brilliant teen seeing what they can do socially with that, or a musically gifted one... or whatever.

 

Huh? Did I say anything about points A to B? Private parts are private, that we agree on, so do we get as close to making them not private as possible? I don't get that. Bras go along with self respect in a growing girl developing breasts. I certainly didn't want to show my nipple stubs when I was developing, I would guess that's pretty normal. As her mother, I have taught my daughter to wear a bra because, um, nipple stubs are really obvious and draw undue attention. So are nipples and bouncing, flapping breasts, which is why in our culture we wear bras. If we were in Africa, I'd be all for going around topless, but in our culture it draws a lot of attention to the chestal area, lol. It's really not a big deal to find and put on a comfortable bra, sorry, I don't buy that.

 

As for your last paragraph, well, that's one way of looking at it I guess.

[shanvan]

Most of the women who are posting in the modesty threads for more freedom and less censure actually dress fairly modestly at least at this stage in their life. It isn't really a matter of those who do vs. those who don't but of what people think of issues behind it.

 

Yes. I was trying to think of how to word this and you beat me to it. And some of us are respectful of other views and don't want to offend. It's hard to know when and who you are offending after you find out how many different POV there are on the topic. I becomes a very tricky issue. I used to think I dressed modestly, but after reading some threads I realize that may not be how others see it. And The Immodesty Thread...many are posting out of relief b/c of the messy threads posted recently. Not everyone is making fun of others or sneering.

[I.Dup.]

 

Well to be fair, some boys have this as well. They don't wear bras.

 

Boys with large breasts and nipples the size of women's that bounce when they walk and run around should probably wear a bra. :p

[justasque]

We -- and that means everyone, including those whose views I reject -- have to yield to whatever be the loudest squeaky wheel and swallow our understandings of truth, unless we are willing to be ridiculed.

 

I have come to believe over and over again that what is most important to me must be spoken, made verbal and shared, even at the risk of having it bruised or misunderstood. --Audre Lourde

 

I guess I'm surprised that so many homeschooling moms are so boldly against modesty. ... But is it honestly healthy for young girls to go around in shorts practically exposing their butt cheeks or see-through shirts, no bra, whatever? ... Miley was gyrating along, humping a guy's leg to "use me, abuse me" lyrics. And she is certainly not abnormal.

 

There is considerable middle ground between the burka and the bikini. Hollywood starlets are hardly role models for classy dressing, nor do I see homeschooled kids dressing like them. I don't see the majority of sensible, classy pubic or private school kids dressing like starlets either.

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

Boys with large breasts and nipples the size of women's that bounce when they walk and run around should probably wear a bra. :p

 

Don't you mean a "bro"?

[Mrs Mungo]

I guess I'm surprised that so many homeschooling moms are so boldly against modesty. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate fundamentalist mindsets and my skin crawls at patriarchy stuff. But is it honestly healthy for young girls to go around in shorts practically exposing their butt cheeks or see-through shirts, no bra, whatever? Apart from "protecting the men" (ick) is that honoring of their self respect? That is the angle I'm coming from in teaching my daughter.

 

For me, it is the level of "modesty" that is being required and the reasons behind the "modesty movement." Girls not being allowed to play tennis or compete in gymnastics or take dance lessons because the uniforms are too immodest and will be a stumbling block for some boy, that is patriarchy taken to a misogynistic extreme that hurts girls. That is NOT the same as not wearing tiny short shorts or see through shirts. You are taking things to an extreme that I guarantee (because I know several of the teens of the moms who post here) you would not see, if you knew these families IRL.

 

Girls know what they are doing, they know they have power over boys and want to use that power. Dh and I were watching Jimmy Kimmel the other night and Miley Cyrus had a concert and, um, :huh: :huh: You can't watch something like that or see what goes on with young girls who are living this way and tell me they're completely innocent and just want to be comfortable. Miley was gyrating along, humping a guy's leg to "use me, abuse me" lyrics. And she is certainly not abnormal.

 

This is a false dichotomy. The choice is not forced patriarchal mode of covering up from knee to chin versus becoming Miley Cyrus essentially wearing underpants on national tv.

[bolt.]

Huh? Did I say anything about points A to B? Private parts are private, that we agree on, so do we get as close to making them not private as possible?

You mentioned 'shorts practically exposing their butt cheeks' -- which I read to mean 'shorts that do not expose the butt cheeks, but expose the upper thighs'... which led me to think you mean that the exposure of 'lower thighs' does not bother you in the same way that exposure of 'upper thighs' does. Since thighs don't naturally divide that way, I think that kind of demarcation would have to be made in some manner? I'm sorry if I misunderstood.

 

Assuming that you remain interested in me sharing how I think of these things:

 

My demarcation is this: an area is private or not private. A bottom is private. No part of the leg is private, therefore shorts that expose the entire leg 'practically' exposing the bottom (but not exposing the bottom) are not something I have taught my girls to be concerned about. There is no such thing in my thinking as "close to private" and there is no guilt associated with showing body parts that are near-and-proximate to private parts. The only issue I would have is if an *actual* private part was (non-accidentally) exposed.

 

Bras go along with self respect in a growing girl developing breasts. I certainly didn't want to show my nipple stubs when I was developing, I would guess that's pretty normal.

Well, *statistically* it's vastly abnormal... though it is the current widespread practice in contemporary western societies. Many young women in many places for many hundreds of years have managed to respect themselves without putting undue effort into hiding the fact that they were experiencing the growth of their 'nipple stubs'. If that isn't something you wanted to be clear to passers-by, that's a personal decision, and a perfectly fair one... but it's not a universal sentiment.

 

As her mother, I have taught my daughter to wear a bra because, um, nipple stubs are really obvious and draw undue attention. So are nipples and bouncing, flapping breasts, which is why in our culture we wear bras. If we were in Africa, I'd be all for going around topless, but in our culture it draws a lot of attention to the chestal area, lol. It's really not a big deal to find and put on a comfortable bra, sorry, I don't buy that.

Yes, many women in our culture wear bras, including myself, for many of the reasons you mention. The thing is that it's a *personal* decision, and not a decision I am going to make on behalf of my daughters. When I need to, I do make decisions for them -- but not when I don't need to. This is a decision that doesn't matter. I don't need to make decisions about their bra choices. I don't mind if my daughter experiences attention in public for the development, existence or behaviour of her breasts. If that attention doesn't hurt/bother *her* then I have no motivation to do anything about it as a parent. To me it's not a big deal to put a bra on, or leave one off -- so I just let everyone make their own choices. (I will certainly provide bras. My DD8 already has 2 'training bras' that she wears intermittently, whenever she feels like it.)

[QueenCat]

To begin with, I am not addressing the OP. Just am reacting to reams of "stuff" posted to the boards recently.

 

I have not been "indoctrinated" by any set of values. Nor do I embrace" legalism". I am an intelligent woman who thinks for herself and makes her own choices. Speaking boldly, I find it offensive to blithely sneer at the conservative values of other people as "indoctrination", "legalism", "patriarchal", "hidebound", and so forth. There is no honesty to the claims of "equal rights for all viewpoints", either here, or throughout the world. We -- and that means everyone, including those whose views I reject -- have to yield to whatever be the loudest squeaky wheel and swallow our understandings of truth, unless we are willing to be ridiculed.

 

Had to say this. It has been simmering beneath my surface for a while.

 

I do see what you're saying.... sort of. I often feel the opposite, as a relatively moderate politically person, who is a Methodist (not super liberal but not super conservative). Often, I feel like some of the more conservative members of this group treat those who are less conservative as not having standards or morals, or that the more conservative standards are "better" than those whose standards are different. I feel when someone gives a moderate or liberal view here, they are often beat up for it. I think we tend to see what rankles us, and not notice as much that which does not... hope I'm making sense here.

[Forget-Me-Not]

 

 

Boys with large breasts and nipples the size of women's that bounce when they walk and run around should probably wear a bra. :p

 

Or maybe see a physician . . .

[albeto]

 

Don't you mean a "bro"?

 

I think it's called, the "manzier."

 

;)

 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

:laugh: :laugh:

:laugh: That's it!

[Jean in Newcastle]

So the physician can do what?

 

Usually, advise the man or boy on losing weight. Or do some hormone tests in rare situations.

[Penelope]

 

Boys with large breasts and nipples the size of women's that bounce when they walk and run around should probably wear a bra. :p

 

No, but don't have a rule where a pre-pubescent girl can't wear a bikini to swim around the boys when a couple of the boys have bigger breasts than she does. :p

[Forget-Me-Not]

 

 

Usually, advise the man or boy on losing weight. Or do some hormone tests in rare situations.

 

Yes, the medical term is gynecomastia and it can be a symptom of some hormone/pituitary issues.

[Wheres Toto]

 

Bras go along with self respect in a growing girl developing breasts. I certainly didn't want to show my nipple stubs when I was developing, I would guess that's pretty normal. As her mother, I have taught my daughter to wear a bra because, um, nipple stubs are really obvious and draw undue attention. So are nipples and bouncing, flapping breasts, which is why in our culture we wear bras. If we were in Africa, I'd be all for going around topless, but in our culture it draws a lot of attention to the chestal area, lol. It's really not a big deal to find and put on a comfortable bra, sorry, I don't buy that.

 

 

:huh: Huh? Lack of a bra can also go along with being completely comfortable with your body the way it is. If the only problem is nipple stubs (??), cami's, layering of shirts and many other things would keep that from being obvious if support is not needed.

 

I hardly ever wear a bra. Most people will never be able to tell (trust me, my oldest who always wears a bra AND often multiple layers would be the first person to let me know) because there is no nipple showing, no bouncing and no flapping. A bra, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with self-respect. For some it serves a practical purpose (support and/or coverage) and for others it's just unnecessary.

[I.Dup.]

You are taking things to an extreme

 

I have not followed the modesty threads. I've opened 1 or 2 and read a few posts, but I have not followed them closely. I thought by "modesty" we were talking more about what we wear or our daughters wear, or how we feel about teens/young adults/adult women in general. The women I mentioned were more along the lines of the women in this thread who have commented that they don't care if their daughters get attention for their breasts, if they wear bras or not, they can wear whatever they want, etc.

 

I agree that restricting sports and things like that seems grossly unfair.

[MommaOfalotta]

I wasn't raised with a similar background in modesty, but I wasn't raised to dress half naked either. I dont aim to dress modest, and I dont aim to dress immodest. I dress in what I want to wear, whatever I feel is comfortable. I don't see anything wrong with the way I dress, at all.

 

That being said, my daughter is six years old. She is the only one in her swim group to wear a two piece. That would not be okay to some parents.. but to me, its no big deal. She can wear shorts, camis, tank tops, etc if its hot outside. Be comfortable, dress for the weather. Shes six.

 

I want her to have a healthy view of her body. I dont want her to be putting it on display, but I dont want her to be ashamed of it either. She will know (once she has reached a decent AGE) why its important to not dress in shorts with your booty hanging out. She would never be allowed to wear something like that no matter what age she is.. but it will be explained when she is old enough.. pre-teen, perhaps. I dont want to draw attention or make her self conscious of her body when she is six. years. old. And to teach my child, my BABY, that boys will be looking at her in whatever way just makes my stomach turn. Yes there is a time to have those talks but it is not at six years old (or younger) IMO.

 

As for the bra issue, lol. 99% of the time I am without a bra. Camis keep everything in place and dont reveal any.. ahem, details. Just had to throw that out there. When I say I dont wear a bra, its not the flapping, jiggling, picture some people get, lol. I would never feel comfortable like that :p

[Wheres Toto]

 

I have not followed the modesty threads. I've opened 1 or 2 and read a few posts, but I have not followed them closely. I thought by "modesty" we were talking more about what we wear or our daughters wear, or how we feel about teens/young adults/adult women in general. The women I mentioned were more along the lines of the women in this thread who have commented that they don't care if their daughters get attention for their breasts, if they wear bras or not, they can wear whatever they want, etc.

 

I agree that restricting sports and things like that seems grossly unfair.

 

 

I have followed the modesty threads and I've never seen anyone say the bolded. I've seen that they don't care if their daughters are topless before they have any breasts, don't care if they wear bras when they have no need of the support or coverage, and I've never seen them say they just leave all choices up to their children while in public places.

[bolt.]

See: if these ladies get a personal choice about their bra habits, why will my daughters need to be governed by their mother's opinions about breast care?

 

I assume, if they *encounter* issues like excessive flapping, or a great deal of staring, or discomfort -- that they will find their way to a sensible solution. I would even guide them towards a few sensible solutions -- including bras. If they don't encounter issues like that, I'm just not going to worry my pretty little head about it. I'm not 'anti bra' I'm just 'pro minding my own business'.

[albeto]

Bras go along with self respect in a growing girl developing breasts.

 

 

I'd suggest the issue is in determining what variable really does go along with self respect in a girl maturing into womanhood. The "modesty" concept suggests self-respect is defined in part by what one wears, because one's choice of clothing reveals their [sexual] intent. I couldn't disagree more. I think self-respect comes from a great number of variables, including confidence, resilience to frustrations, feeling included and important, and other things that contribute to our sense of self. Clothes can be, but are not necessarily a part of this equation. They don't have to be. They are one of the variables that can be totally scrapped and one can still witness great self-respect in a woman.

[I.Dup.]

 

I have followed the modesty threads and I've never seen anyone say the bolded.

 

...

 

When I need to, I do make decisions for them -- but not when I don't need to. This is a decision that doesn't matter. I don't need to make decisions about their bra choices. I don't mind if my daughter experiences attention in public for the development, existence or behaviour of her breasts. If that attention doesn't hurt/bother *her* then I have no motivation to do anything about it as a parent.

 

 

I'm just not going to worry my pretty little head about it. I'm not 'anti bra' I'm just 'pro minding my own business'.

 

 

Just saying. It's being said.

 

And I do consider my daughters my business.

[bolt.]

Ok -- too funny and appropreate not to share:

 

DDs have been watching "The Sound of Music" a lot lately. DD5, currently colouring at the kitchen table just sang out the line, "Completly unprepared am I // to face a world of men." And carried on colouring.

 

Maybe she thinks I should be a little more pro-active like some of you are. B)

[I.Dup.]

I'd suggest the issue is in determining what variable really does go along with self respect in a girl maturing into womanhood. The "modesty" concept suggests self-respect is defined in part by what one wears, because one's choice of clothing reveals their [sexual] intent. I couldn't disagree more. I think self-respect comes from a great number of variables, including confidence, resilience to frustrations, feeling included and important, and other things that contribute to our sense of self. Clothes can be, but are not necessarily a part of this equation. They don't have to be. They are one of the variables that can be totally scrapped and one can still witness great self-respect in a woman.

 

 

I just don't agree. I think our clothes say a lot about us. Our outfits are premeditated, they don't just appear on our bodies. I am currently in a phase of life where I dress casual, somewhat sloppily, because I'm so tired. That says something about me. When a young girl chooses to expose so much of her body in an unnatural environment (the mall versus the beach) it says something about her. Usually, that she wants attention for what she is showing. That has everything to do with self respect.

 

I would question, if a girl is taught to wear a bra to hide her growing (and very obvious) nipples, and then suddenly she wants them exposed in outfits where the breast buds or breasts are very obvious, I would question why that is.

[myfunnybunch]

I guess I'm surprised that so many homeschooling moms are so boldly against modesty.

 

 

I'm not reading many of the responses as against modesty itself.

 

Modesty (from m-w.com)

 

1: freedom from conceit or vanity

 

2: propriety in dress, speech, or conduct

 

We all have our personal ideas of conceit and vanity, and of propriety. For example, propriety in speech and conduct: My dear friend thinks it's funny for her family to fart and to tell fart jokes at the dinner table; I think it is not proper and discourage my children from doing so, but I don't care if they do so elsewhere; my sister does not allow her children to tell fart jokes at all because she thinks it's not classy. Meh. To each his own. I might even say that I think my sister is silly, or that I think my friend is crass (though I would say neither because I don't believe they are those things) but I wouldn't dream of thinking that they should change their values based on my opinions, nor would I expect either of them to conform to my expectations of propriety in this area. If invited to a "no farting" party, I'd probably tell my kids it's a no farting party and ask if they felt strongly enough about farting to not attend, or if they'd like to enjoy their cousins' company without farting for the duration of the event.

 

I kind of see the sleeves/sleeveless, long shorts/short shorts, bikini/modest swimwear, bras/braless issues in the same light.

 

Many people react not to the idea of being modest itself, but to having others' ideas of modesty imposed upon them and their families, and the judgement that ensues. And I agree with PP that there is a wide modesty range or continuum, even within our culture-specific boundaries. It's not an either (one is modest)/or (one is immodest). Because then we get into black and white judgement of the modesty vs. immodesty of others based on our own personal standards.

 

FWIW, I read the "immodesty" thread as more of a tongue-in-cheek reaction to that kind of judgement than as making fun of the modesty standards of others. :)

 

Cat

[I.Dup.]

Ok -- too funny and appropreate not to share:

 

DDs have been watching "The Sound of Music" a lot lately. DD5, currently colouring at the kitchen table just sang out the line, "Completly unprepared am I // to face a world of men." And carried on colouring.

 

Maybe she thinks I should be a little more pro-active like some of you are. B)

 

 

very cute! :laugh:

[Mrs Mungo]

 

I have not followed the modesty threads. I've opened 1 or 2 and read a few posts, but I have not followed them closely. I thought by "modesty" we were talking more about what we wear or our daughters wear, or how we feel about teens/young adults/adult women in general.

 

No. It's really about much more than that. Have you seen this site?

http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse

 

It's a site where men and boys vote on what is a "stumbling block" issue so that girls can make better decisions. Let me give you some examples.

 

It is a stumbling block when swimsuit ties stick out from under clothing (e.g. tied around the neck).

Thirty-five percent of men and boys who voted agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

It is okay to expose the stomach when wearing a swimsuit.

Nearly 60% of men/boys disagreed or strongly disagreed with this statement.

 

Seeing a girl take off a pullover (i.e. a shirt that must be pulled over the head) is a stumbling block, even if she is wearing a modest shirt underneath.

Nearly 40% of men/boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

Leotards, sheer skirts and tutus in theatre or dance performances are immodest.

Over 35% of men boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

Seeing a girl stretching (e.g. arching the back, reaching the arms back, and sticking out the chest) is a stumbling block.

Over 56% of men/boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

You have less respect for an immodest girl than for a modest one.

An astounding 75% of men/boys agreed with this statement, which is SHAMEFUL, IMO.

 

This is what you get when you make every bit of attraction a sin that is laid at the doorstep of the attractive girl. That is the problem.

[bolt.]

She's right. I did say those things.

 

I don't think there's true harm in people just noticing that a teenage girl isn't wearing a bra, and I have no intention of making their *bra choices* into my business. (Yes, there are lots of choices I would still intervene about. I'm not hands-off on all issues. Just this issue, because this issue matters very very little. I have bigger fish to fry.)

[Penelope]

Yes, the medical term is gynecomastia and it can be a symptom of some hormone/pituitary issues.

Yes, but in most cases these days, it's because the boy is overweight or obese.

[Mergath]

 

Huh? Did I say anything about points A to B? Private parts are private, that we agree on, so do we get as close to making them not private as possible? I don't get that. Bras go along with self respect in a growing girl developing breasts. I certainly didn't want to show my nipple stubs when I was developing, I would guess that's pretty normal. As her mother, I have taught my daughter to wear a bra because, um, nipple stubs are really obvious and draw undue attention. So are nipples and bouncing, flapping breasts, which is why in our culture we wear bras. If we were in Africa, I'd be all for going around topless, but in our culture it draws a lot of attention to the chestal area, lol. It's really not a big deal to find and put on a comfortable bra, sorry, I don't buy that.

 

 

:huh:

 

I think you're reading way too much into the bra. By your logic, a developing girl who doesn't want to wear a bra has no self-respect? I don't buy that.

 

And... they're just "nipples."

[charcat13]

 

No. It's really about much more than that. Have you seen this site?

http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse

 

It's a site where men and boys vote on what is a "stumbling block" issue so that girls can make better decisions. Let me give you some examples.

 

It is a stumbling block when swimsuit ties stick out from under clothing (e.g. tied around the neck).

Thirty-five percent of men and boys who voted agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

It is okay to expose the stomach when wearing a swimsuit.

Nearly 60% of men/boys disagreed or strongly disagreed with this statement.

 

Seeing a girl take off a pullover (i.e. a shirt that must be pulled over the head) is a stumbling block, even if she is wearing a modest shirt underneath.

Nearly 40% of men/boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

Leotards, sheer skirts and tutus in theatre or dance performances are immodest.

Over 35% of men boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

Seeing a girl stretching (e.g. arching the back, reaching the arms back, and sticking out the chest) is a stumbling block.

Over 56% of men/boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

You have less respect for an immodest girl than for a modest one.

An astounding 75% of men/boys agreed with this statement, which is SHAMEFUL, IMO.

 

This is what you get when you make every bit of attraction a sin that is laid at the doorstep of the attractive girl. That is the problem.

 

While we do have modesty standards (nothing drastic) in our family, I certainly don't want my girls to grow up thinking they have to dress like nuns to earn respect from men. I also don't want my son blaming all of his feelings, responses, actions on girls just walking around minding their own business. He has the capability to turn his head if something is too "distracting."

[Mergath]

 

 

No. It's really about much more than that. Have you seen this site?

http://www.therebelu...tysurvey/browse

 

It's a site where men and boys vote on what is a "stumbling block" issue so that girls can make better decisions. Let me give you some examples.

 

It is a stumbling block when swimsuit ties stick out from under clothing (e.g. tied around the neck).

Thirty-five percent of men and boys who voted agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

It is okay to expose the stomach when wearing a swimsuit.

Nearly 60% of men/boys disagreed or strongly disagreed with this statement.

 

Seeing a girl take off a pullover (i.e. a shirt that must be pulled over the head) is a stumbling block, even if she is wearing a modest shirt underneath.

Nearly 40% of men/boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

Leotards, sheer skirts and tutus in theatre or dance performances are immodest.

Over 35% of men boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

Seeing a girl stretching (e.g. arching the back, reaching the arms back, and sticking out the chest) is a stumbling block.

Over 56% of men/boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

You have less respect for an immodest girl than for a modest one.

An astounding 75% of men/boys agreed with this statement, which is SHAMEFUL, IMO.

 

This is what you get when you make every bit of attraction a sin that is laid at the doorstep of the attractive girl. That is the problem.

 

Wow. So the other day at the pool when I pulled off my t-shirt, under which I was wearing a visible bikini top, then stretched before getting into the water, the men must have been dropping like flies.

[I.Dup.]

She's right. I did say those things.

 

I don't think there's true harm in people just noticing that a teenage girl isn't wearing a bra, and I have no intention of making their *bra choices* into my business. (Yes, there are lots of choices I would still intervene about. I'm not hands-off on all issues. Just this issue, because this issue matters very very little. I have bigger fish to fry.)

 

That sounds nice. Really. But have you ever seen a grown adult man leer at your young daughter? We were at a stop light and I noticed the homeless man standing there staring in the window at my 11-year-old daughter. I guarantee you she was not dressed immodestly. I had a visceral reaction to that. Now that I have a pubescent daughter, I cannot imagine not caring if she were exposing her breasts and nipples for grown men to look at in that way.

 

 

 

No. It's really about much more than that. Have you seen this site?

http://www.therebelu...tysurvey/browse

 

It's a site where men and boys vote on what is a "stumbling block" issue so that girls can make better decisions. Let me give you some examples.

 

It is a stumbling block when swimsuit ties stick out from under clothing (e.g. tied around the neck).

Thirty-five percent of men and boys who voted agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

It is okay to expose the stomach when wearing a swimsuit.

Nearly 60% of men/boys disagreed or strongly disagreed with this statement.

 

Seeing a girl take off a pullover (i.e. a shirt that must be pulled over the head) is a stumbling block, even if she is wearing a modest shirt underneath.

Nearly 40% of men/boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

Leotards, sheer skirts and tutus in theatre or dance performances are immodest.

Over 35% of men boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

Seeing a girl stretching (e.g. arching the back, reaching the arms back, and sticking out the chest) is a stumbling block.

Over 56% of men/boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

You have less respect for an immodest girl than for a modest one.

An astounding 75% of men/boys agreed with this statement, which is SHAMEFUL, IMO.

 

This is what you get when you make every bit of attraction a sin that is laid at the doorstep of the attractive girl. That is the problem.

 

Yes, I've seen that, and I find it disgusting. There is a middle ground also on laying it all at the foot of the girl and giving her absolutely zero responsibility to dress in a way that keeps her sense of self intact. Showing everything to everybody is not conducive to a healthy self respect, IMNSHO.

[MommaOfalotta]

 

 

No. It's really about much more than that. Have you seen this site?

http://www.therebelu...tysurvey/browse

 

It's a site where men and boys vote on what is a "stumbling block" issue so that girls can make better decisions. Let me give you some examples.

 

It is a stumbling block when swimsuit ties stick out from under clothing (e.g. tied around the neck).

Thirty-five percent of men and boys who voted agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

It is okay to expose the stomach when wearing a swimsuit.

Nearly 60% of men/boys disagreed or strongly disagreed with this statement.

 

Seeing a girl take off a pullover (i.e. a shirt that must be pulled over the head) is a stumbling block, even if she is wearing a modest shirt underneath.

Nearly 40% of men/boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

Leotards, sheer skirts and tutus in theatre or dance performances are immodest.

Over 35% of men boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

Seeing a girl stretching (e.g. arching the back, reaching the arms back, and sticking out the chest) is a stumbling block.

Over 56% of men/boys agreed or strongly agreed with this statement.

 

You have less respect for an immodest girl than for a modest one.

An astounding 75% of men/boys agreed with this statement, which is SHAMEFUL, IMO.

 

This is what you get when you make every bit of attraction a sin that is laid at the doorstep of the attractive girl. That is the problem.

 

This is why I think its ridiculous to dress ourselves based on what men will think/feel/whatever. A girl could be covered in clothes from head to toe and something she does could make a teenage boy see it as a "stumbling block." Remember that old saying that boys think about shhhex every 7 seconds? Yeah, kind of like that. lol.

 

So no removing layers, even if you are smoldering. While we are at it, dont eat a popsicle... or a banana... or... anything. Dont move, dont breathe!

 

Okay so Im obviously kidding on some of these but good grief. It can all just get ridiculous pretty quick.

[Rivka]

Ok -- too funny and appropreate not to share:

 

DDs have been watching "The Sound of Music" a lot lately. DD5, currently colouring at the kitchen table just sang out the line, "Completly unprepared am I // to face a world of men." And carried on colouring.

 

Maybe she thinks I should be a little more pro-active like some of you are. B)

 

:lol:

 

My 8yo went through a phase of loving that CD, and the poor thing had to sit through many, many lectures from me on why that song is icky rather than romantic.

 

"Alex, if you ever meet a boy who thinks that your life is an empty page that men will want to write on, run. Your life is a book you write YOURSELF. Hear me?!"

[Slartibartfast]

I am growing a bit weary of all the modesty discussion. I do believe that many don't always have a wide variety of clothing choices. For many people having to go shopping just to be able to attend a pool party is an unreasonable expectation and I wouldn't do it. If I told my husband I had to spend extra money so dd could be modest enough for her friendships he would think I had lost my mind.

 

We do dress our dd modestly. We did a small amount of shopping only recently and because she is too big for kid clothes but too small for most adult clothing I think spent a whole day pinning and refashioning the things she had purchased so they would be appropriate. Too many things are much too low cut and if someone is short it goes down to the navel. Dd is a tiny little thing and she will probably be that way her entire life. At this point I am just hoping she is over five feet tall. We did buy second hand clothing because we could buy more things that way but it does make choices more limited, I think it took her 45 minutes to try everything on that we had selected and by the time she was done out of about 40 things I allowed about 5 of them, and that was with the tailoring I would be doing.

 

I would mind very much someone judging my daughter or myself for the choices we do make. She doesn't have a skirt that hits above her knee and none of her shorts are very short. We don't allow that. She wears a one piece swim suit, she doesn't really wear tank tops but that is her choice, she doesn't prefer them. If someone really was telling me that my daughter was too immodest I would NOT be their friend. I respect all religions, I have friends of many different faiths but if someone points their finger at me and chastises my child for the very reasonable choices we make then that is IT. Just because someone is more conservative than me that does not give them the right to admonish me or my family for not agreeing with them.

 

I go out of my way to make certain dd is appropriately attired. If that isn't good enough for some then they really do not need my friendship.

 

I do have a son and I assure you that he will be taught that leering at women is not appropriate. A man will leer at anything be it fancy shoes, a well trimmed ankle, a woman's hands, their hair...anything can become sexual. Men may be visual but they also need to check their own hearts when they gawk and leer. It isn't ok and no amount of excess clothing will prevent it. We make reasonable choices, that is all anyone can do.

[MommaOfalotta]

That sounds nice. Really. But have you ever seen a grown adult man leer at your young daughter? We were at a stop light and I noticed the homeless man standing there staring in the window at my 11-year-old daughter. I guarantee you she was not dressed immodestly. I had a visceral reaction to that. Now that I have a pubescent daughter, I cannot imagine not caring if she were exposing her breasts and nipples for grown men to look at in that way.

 

 

 

Yes, I've seen that, and I find it disgusting. There is a middle ground also on laying it all at the foot of the girl and giving her absolutely zero responsibility to dress in a way that keeps her sense of self intact. Showing everything to everybody is not conducive to a healthy self respect, IMNSHO.

 

This was another issue I wanted to bring up. As far as men like that who are looking at your daughter/child pervertedly, no amount of covering up or dressing modestly will deter them.

 

Props to you for not running him over. I kid. But seriously that would bring out my momma bear. Whew.

[albeto]

I just don't agree. I think our clothes say a lot about us.

 

It doesn't necessarily say anything about our sexual intent. There is no universal or natural law that follows if a woman exposes umpteen percent of her skin she is seeking sexual attention. This is a learned correlation, and the point is, not everyone has learned the same thing.

 

Our outfits are premeditated, they don't just appear on our bodies. I am currently in a phase of life where I dress casual, somewhat sloppily, because I'm so tired. That says something about me. When a young girl chooses to expose so much of her body in an unnatural environment (the mall versus the beach) it says something about her. Usually, that she wants attention for what she is showing. That has everything to do with self respect.

 

Consider the use of perfume. Some women like to wear perfume for a variety of reasons. Some wear it because they enjoy the scent. Some wear it because they enjoy the attention when someone else notices the scent. Some wear it to illicit sexual attention from men or other women. Not everyone interprets the use of perfume in the same way. Short shorts, tank tops, high heels, and even red lipstick are all similarly neutral. Their intent is defined by the woman putting it on. Even if that's the intent you may have putting on short shorts, not all women do. Shorts are as neutral as perfume. They don't mean anything outside of the context the wearer determines.

 

Sometimes, people are simply wrong when they assume they know the intent behind another person's actions.

 

I would question, if a girl is taught to wear a bra to hide her growing (and very obvious) nipples, and then suddenly she wants them exposed in outfits where the breast buds or breasts are very obvious, I would question why that is.

 

If a girl were never taught that visible nipples were problematic, would she still feel self-conscious? Should she? If she were taught, but later rejected that teaching, should she feel self-conscious? Have you ever rejecting something you were taught in childhood was "true" because as you matured, you realized that teaching didn't really explain things as well as it should?

[bolt.]

 

 

That sounds nice. Really. But have you ever seen a grown adult man leer at your young daughter? We were at a stop light and I noticed the homeless man standing there staring in the window at my 11-year-old daughter. I guarantee you she was not dressed immodestly. I had a visceral reaction to that. Now that I have a pubescent daughter, I cannot imagine not caring if she were exposing her breasts and nipples for grown men to look at in that way.

I imagine I'd be angry at the man -- viscerally... But I don't think my anger at a man should translate into making unnessisary rules for my child. I just don't. (And I don't consider breasts which are firmly under normal clothing to be "exposed".)

 

I'd also like to add that if I felt l/believed that she was flaunting herself for a purpose, I'd be all over that as a mentorship and coaching issue. It *would* matter to me. It would matter too much for me to just say, "From now on you have to wear a bra, because I have good reasons, and it doesn't matter if you share my reasons, as long as you abide by the limit I'm laying down."

 

If my dds don't share my idea of appropreate levels of self-display... I want there to be evidence of that, so I can engage with the issues. I don't want her toeing the line on the surface so I'd have no concerns and blithely waste all the years I had to actually influence her heart and mind.