Math Woes - Where to Place DS

[TheApprentice]

My middle ds did MM 4, 5, and 6, but afterward, he was not comfortable doing Algebra. So for this past year, we choice CLE 700 because it has the spiral approach, and he did really well. He also did well with MM, he just wanted more review.

 

He finished early, so I started using Lial's Introductory Algebra with him for the past several weeks (I already own it), and I don't see him using this for 8th grade. He's making silly mistakes, like not including the right signs (+ or _). And he dreads the thought of doing math with this text.

 

I actually feel CLE 700 set him back a bit. I'm thinking he may need another Pre-Algebra course, but with more vigor or just another Algebra program.

 

How would you proceed?

[Arcadia]

He's making silly mistakes, like not including the right signs (+ or _). And he dreads the thought of doing math with this text.

 

 

Both my boys are doing pre-algebra now at their own pace. This morning my older forgot the square root sign when doing the chapter on Pythagoras Theorem and so got a question wrong.

I'll ask your son why he does not like the text. I'll also see why your son is making the mistakes; teenage growth spurt, hot summer weather, lack of sleep, boring questions, feeling hungry.

I'll also see where the gaps or weak areas are and just attack those during summer.

[Mom0012]

My son understands math quite well, but makes glitchy errors. He is done with arithmetic but not ready for algebra. I'm having him work through the rest of CLE 8 and prealgebra on Tabletclass. Honestly, in our case, I don't know if this is a developmental issue or if he is just going to struggle with multiple-step, abstract problems. The multi-step thing seems huge for him. Just empathizing with you really. It could be that he just needs more time.

[wapiti]

My middle ds did MM 4, 5, and 6, but afterward, he was not comfortable doing Algebra. So for this past year, we choice CLE 700 because it has the spiral approach, and he did really well. He also did well with MM, he just wanted more review.

 

He finished early, so I started using Lial's Introductory Algebra with him for the past several weeks (I already own it), and I don't see him using this for 8th grade. He's making silly mistakes, like not including the right signs (+ or _). And he dreads the thought of doing math with this text.

 

I actually feel CLE 700 set him back a bit. I'm thinking he may need another Pre-Algebra course, but with more vigor or just another Algebra program.

 

How would you proceed?

 

I would try to separate out what his strong and weak areas of understanding are, apart from the silly mistakes. If the silly mistakes are careless rather than forgetting the concept, that may just be an age thing and the math level - as well as the particular program - might not matter. IOW, I wouldn't let that keep him from moving forward when he's otherwise ready. There are different schools of thought on this of course, but making the math even more boring by going backwards (or staying with the really boring text) isn't necessarily a recipe for correcting carelessness for every type of student. I've seen a recommendation somewhere here to use different colors when writing +/- signs; that might be worth a try as well as having him re-do anything that was wrong due to such mistakes.

 

If he has forgotten just a few key concepts or not been taught something yet, I'd review or teach those concepts and then move on to algebra.

 

If his understanding is in good shape, I'd probably go ahead and start Jacobs algebra. It starts off gently and involves little bits of a certain type of humor.

[dereksurfs]

I don't think jumping right into Algebra 1 is a good idea yet as he obviously isn't ready. Preparation is key for Algbebra in terms of building a strong foundation which leads to much greater success once there. We use CLE as well and I do not think CLE 700 alone is a strong enough Pre-A. It was never intended to be used in this way. Rather it is designed to go along with CLE 800 which constitutes CLE Pre-Algebra. The jury is still out for us whether we'll use it beyond CLE 600 for our dds.

 

I would recommend either another Pre-A program or finish with CLE 800. Pre-Algebra programs vary greater than possibly any other course both in terms of rigor as well as scope and sequeunce. We went from MUS to TabletClass Pre-A with ds11 and it was a huge step up with plenty of algebraic reasoning. For ds11 it was that just right challenge which stretched him more than ever before. Yet the straight forward instruction in smaller chunks seemed to help him build from one concept to the next. John Zimmerman, the owner, was very responsive to any questions we had. I don't think he was ready to do this via a textbook. However after completing TC his confidence level and skills and greatly improved. Now he is working in AoPS primarily on his own with the book.

 

If a program like TabletClass would be too hard you may also want to consider DerekOwens which is another excellent Pre-A program.

 

The other option is start with an easier Algebra 1 such as Jacobs or MUS as Wapiti recommended. Jacobs will be solid after some initial Pre-A review. With MUS you could use it as a Pre-A before something more rigorous to follow. But IMO he needs review of fundamental concepts. This could be done in parallel with one of the above or more sequentially. It all depends on what you think he is ready for. The real key at this stage IMO is building up his confidence without giving him too much repetition. Shore up the weaknesses, then move on.

[TheApprentice]

My thought was to use either AoPS's Pre-Algebra or TabletClass. But I think both will be slightly boring at the beginning and then pick up. He understands the concepts, but it's the follow through. Maybe Jacobs Algebra would work for him.

 

He considers himself good at math, and I think I blew it by putting him in CLE 700 after MM, instead of Pre-Algebra, and now it's messing with his head a bit that he may be taking Pre-Algebra in the 8th grade.

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

[dereksurfs]

My thought was to use either AoPS's Pre-Algebra or TabletClass. But I think both will be slightly boring at the beginning and then pick up. He understands the concepts, but it's the follow through. Maybe Jacobs Algebra would work for him.

 

He considers himself good at math, and I think I blew it by putting him in CLE 700 after MM, instead of Pre-Algebra, and now it's messing with his head a bit that he may be taking Pre-Algebra in the 8th grade.

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

 

AoPS and TabletClass will definately not be boring as the material is quite challenging. But if he really wants to move to Algebra then Jacobs may be the way to go. You could do this in parallel with reviewing over pre-A concepts not yet covered.

 

TabletClass, AoPS, Derek Owens and Khan all have free videos at at this Pre-Algbera/Algebra stage which you could use to target specific areas. We've used them and found them helpful to provide a different perspective on the same concept or for additional review work.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

How about Saxon 8/7 which is pre-algebra, has videos, and has courses which will take him all the way through Calculus? or you could do Saxon Algebra 1/2 which is very similar. Saxon is similar to CLE but has more support materials and will take him all the way through highschool. My ds soared through Saxon Algebra 1. make sure you get the editions recommended by Art Reed.

[letsplaymath]

... He's making silly mistakes, like not including the right signs (+ or _). And he dreads the thought of doing math with this text. ... I'm thinking he may need another Pre-Algebra course, but with more vigor or just another Algebra program.

My thought was to use either AoPS's Pre-Algebra or TabletClass. But I think both will be slightly boring at the beginning and then pick up. He understands the concepts, but it's the follow through. ... He considers himself good at math, ... and now it's messing with his head a bit that he may be taking Pre-Algebra in the 8th grade.

 

First, glitchy mistakes like you describe above are NORMAL. He will never stop making them, no matter how good he is at math. This is why engineers always check each other's work before releasing a project. The mind is not a computer, and when it is focusing attention on one thing (especially on a new concept, like in math class), then it can't spare much attention for everything else (like those pesky +/- signs, or the math facts it is so sure it mastered long ago). Result: mental glitch.

 

Second, AoPS pre-algebra is a very algebraic pre-algebra, getting to the heart of the concepts and teaching for true understanding. And it pushes the student to think really hard. [Example from chapter 5: "Find the value of c such that x=2 is a solution to the equation x/c=3."] My very-good-at-math daughter is a little more than half-way through it (and will have started 9th grade before we finish), and I do not feel that it is AT ALL beneath her level. There is really no need to rush through math, and I think the current push for algebra in 8th grade does more harm than good in most cases.

 

Here is our method of working through the book, to avoid the boredom factor: We do not do every problem, but rather focus on (1) checking and deepening her understanding with the gray-box lesson problems, which have mostly been review so far, and then (2) working only the word problems, starred problems, and challenge exercise sets (unless we find a topic she's forgotten and needs more practice on). Believe me, the challenge problems will not be boring. Some days, one problem will fill up most of our 30-minute lesson time.

 

But if the idea of taking another pre-algebra is truly messing with your son's head, you might want to check out James Tanton's G'day Math as a supplement. My daughter and I have been working through those lessons (slowly, at our normal laid-back pace), and she is loving it. The lessons cover quadratic equations, but in a visual way that is quite accessible. Your son may not be able to do all of the levels, but even doing a little bit of quadratic math should make him realize he's not really "behind" -- at least, I know that my daughter always feels encouraged when she gets the chance to "jump ahead" and explore advanced topics.

[TheApprentice]

Thanks for all the suggestions. You're right, bottom line is a solid math foundation, not if he's doing algebra in the 8th grade.

[RootAnn]

... CLE sells a small book (sample) that just contains the 'algebra' lessons from their math light units. Link to workbook & answer key on this page. Might be worth working through (instead of CLE 800 or a full pre-algebra program) & seeing where you are at the end?

[Grantmom]

Maybe he would move quickly through another pre-algebra though, like if you did Tablet Class or even AoPS pre-alg, if he is worried about still doing pre-alg in 8th, just have him work through it for reinforcement, and not take a whole year to do it.

[EKS]

First, glitchy mistakes like you describe above are NORMAL.

 

 

First, the above is very important to understand.

 

Are you teaching him the material from the Lial book or is he self teaching? If it is the latter, then the first thing I'd try would be to teach him yourself and just assign problems from the text. The Lial books are written assuming an adult learner and can be too dense for younger people.

 

The other thing you might want to try is Jacobs.

[texasmama]

My son understands math quite well, but makes glitchy errors. He is done with arithmetic but not ready for algebra. I'm having him work through the rest of CLE 8 and prealgebra on Tabletclass. Honestly, in our case, I don't know if this is a developmental issue or if he is just going to struggle with multiple-step, abstract problems. The multi-step thing seems huge for him. Just empathizing with you really. It could be that he just needs more time.

I have a son like this, as well. He may understand the concepts well but get half the problems wrong because of careless errors, like adding instead of multiplying. I am working through the second book of Key to Algebra with both of my sons this summer, and I have noticed that the older one makes far more of these errors than the younger one. He always has, though. It is just very obvious since they are doing the exact same curriculum at the same time.

 

I have tried to get older son to break down problems step by step and write down every step, which he is consistently resistant to, despite the fact that it clearly helps him. Younger son writes all the steps down because he has been convinced of the value of this and is not resistant.

 

I, too, am offering empathy but no real assistance. I will say that for older son, I will be using Dolciani pre-Algebra next year and for younger son I will be using AoPS pre-Algebra. They have such very different learning styles.

[Mom0012]

 

 

 

First, glitchy mistakes like you describe above are NORMAL. .

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, but how much is normal? My advanced dd makes glitchy mistakes, but nowhere near as many as my son, and if she's careful, she can avoid most of them. I could give my son a 3rd grade math book and he'd still make these types of errors. My dd would not. I like to think it is normal and all is fine (and I hope that is the case for the OP), but in our case, it does not seem normal to me at all.

[letsplaymath]

Yes, but how much is normal? My advanced dd makes glitchy mistakes, but nowhere near as many as my son, and if she's careful, she can avoid most of them. I could give my son a 3rd grade math book and he'd still make these types of errors. My dd would not. I like to think it is normal and all is fine (and I hope that is the case for the OP), but in our case, it does not seem normal to me at all.

 

There are several things that increase my rate of glitchy mistakes. You might compare them to your son's experience to see if some minor change might make a difference for him.

• I make more mistakes when I'm tired, fewer when I'm fresh. This is why many people try to do math first thing in the morning. We are not morning people, but my dd and I do limit our math time to about 30 minutes, because we've found that her performance (and emotional response) plummets with longer lessons. If we need more time than that, we make sure that we at least take a break.
  

• I make fewer mistakes when I'm interested in what I'm working on, more when I'm bored or hate what I am doing. A student who only wants to get the lesson over with will tend to make a lot of mistakes.
  

• I make about the same number of mistakes if I'm working orally, buddy-style, but I tend to catch them more quickly because of our interaction. When my daughter stares at me with a raised eyebrow (or when I do it to her), that's our signal to stop and rethink whatever we just said.
  

• I make more mistakes when I'm under stress. I don't know your son's age, but puberty definitely counts as "under stress" enough to make a mess of mathematical thinking.
  

• While mental glitches can hit me even on a simple problem, I make more mistakes on complicated, multi-step problems. There are so many more chances to make a mistake, and my mind is often rushing ahead to the next step and not paying sufficient attention to the current one.
  

• And finally, I make more mistakes when I'm feeling overwhelmed by something I really don't understand, or when I'm trying to remember a lot of rules that haven't become automatic. (Think of a new driver.)
  

This last case is a problem that definitely needs attention. A student who is making mistakes for this reason needs help, review, time to let the new knowledge coalesce. He may need to redo the lesson from a different angle, with new explanations that might fit better into his overall understanding. Perhaps he needs to go back to earlier topics to firm up the foundational concepts before coming back to the idea that flummoxed him.

[Mom0012]

There are several things that increase my rate of glitchy mistakes. You might compare them to your son's experience to see if some minor change might make a difference for him.

• I make more mistakes when I'm tired, fewer when I'm fresh. This is why many people try to do math first thing in the morning. We are not morning people, but my dd and I do limit our math time to about 30 minutes, because we've found that her performance (and emotional response) plummets with longer lessons. If we need more time than that, we make sure that we at least take a break.
  

• I make fewer mistakes when I'm interested in what I'm working on, more when I'm bored or hate what I am doing. A student who only wants to get the lesson over with will tend to make a lot of mistakes.
  

• I make about the same number of mistakes if I'm working orally, buddy-style, but I tend to catch them more quickly because of our interaction. When my daughter stares at me with a raised eyebrow (or when I do it to her), that's our signal to stop and rethink whatever we just said.
  

• I make more mistakes when I'm under stress. I don't know your son's age, but puberty definitely counts as "under stress" enough to make a mess of mathematical thinking.
  

• While mental glitches can hit me even on a simple problem, I make more mistakes on complicated, multi-step problems. There are so many more chances to make a mistake, and my mind is often rushing ahead to the next step and not paying sufficient attention to the current one.
  

• And finally, I make more mistakes when I'm feeling overwhelmed by something I really don't understand, or when I'm trying to remember a lot of rules that haven't become automatic. (Think of a new driver.)
  

This last case is a problem that definitely needs attention. A student who is making mistakes for this reason needs help, review, time to let the new knowledge coalesce. He may need to redo the lesson from a different angle, with new explanations that might fit better into his overall understanding. Perhaps he needs to go back to earlier topics to firm up the foundational concepts before coming back to the idea that flummoxed him.

 

Lots of good thoughts here. We always do math first thing, BUT it takes my son anywhere from 1 - 2 hours to complete it lately. I should probably have him break it up into 30 minute increments. He's resistant to that, though. He seems to like TabletClass better than CLE so maybe I'll just stick with that for awhile.

[dereksurfs]

Lots of good thoughts here. We always do math first thing, BUT it takes my son anywhere from 1 - 2 hours to complete it lately. I should probably have him break it up into 30 minute increments. He's resistant to that, though. He seems to like TabletClass better than CLE so maybe I'll just stick with that for awhile.

 

Pastel, could you please compare CLE 800 with TabletClass? We've used TC Pre-A and know it is rigorous. ds11 went through MUS and there was simply no comparison between the two in terms of rigor as well as S&S. Currently dds are moving through the lower levels of CLE. I can't imagine CLE ever approaching the level of problem solving TC expects. Still I am curious what your experiences with both might be?

 

Thanks,

[Mom0012]

 

 

Pastel, could you please compare CLE 800 with TabletClass? We've used TC Pre-A and know it is rigorous. ds11 went through MUS and there was simply no comparison between the two in terms of rigor as well as S&S. Currently dds are moving through the lower levels of CLE. I can't imagine CLE ever approaching the level of problem solving TC expects. Still I am curious what your experiences with both might be?

 

Thanks,

 

 

I'm not sure I'm much help at this point. We've only covered 2 chapters of TC with all the activities we've had going on this summer. My ds has just completed LU 804. I can say that TC makes leaps that CLE does not, but my son seems to be able to figure them out (though sometimes I have to give him a hint or encourage him to really think about the hint given in the TC problem). He is actually doing better in TC right now than CLE because there is no mixed review and because he is only doing CLE sporadically. CLE is getting into a lot of longer multistep problems and that is an issue for my son. All the problems in a TC lesson are on one or two topics, so he's not having to constantly shift his thinking. I can see my son taking pride in the work that he's doing in TC, from taking notes, to figuring out tougher problems. I'm just not sure if any of it is going to stick because there isn't enough built-in review for him. Interestingly, he did great with combining like terms in TC (where the problems were definitely more challenging) than he is doing with them in CLE.

 

In the end, I guess I would basically say the problems in TC are more complex and make leaps that CLE does not. I agree that more problem solving is required in TC.

 

Now, if TC would just add in a cumulative mixed review at the end of each section, I'd be quite happy with it.

[dereksurfs]

I'm not sure I'm much help at this point. We've only covered 2 chapters of TC with all the activities we've had going on this summer. My ds has just completed LU 804. I can say that TC makes leaps that CLE does not, but my son seems to be able to figure them out (though sometimes I have to give him a hint or encourage him to really think about the hint given in the TC problem). He is actually doing better in TC right now than CLE because there is no mixed review and because he is only doing CLE sporadically. CLE is getting into a lot of longer multistep problems and that is an issue for my son. All the problems in a TC lesson are on one or two topics, so he's not having to constantly shift his thinking. I can see my son taking pride in the work that he's doing in TC, from taking notes, to figuring out tougher problems. I'm just not sure if any of it is going to stick because there isn't enough built-in review for him. Interestingly, he did great with combining like terms in TC (where the problems were definitely more challenging) than he is doing with them in CLE.

 

In the end, I guess I would basically say the problems in TC are more complex and make leaps that CLE does not. I agree that more problem solving is required in TC.

 

Now, if TC would just add in a cumulative mixed review at the end of each section, I'd be quite happy with it.

 

 

Ah, Ok. Things really start to pick up more after the first few chapters. Those first two primarily review real numbers, fractions and decimals with the exception of the distributive property and simplifying by combining like terms. So I may be asking you again once you guys get a bit further along. Also if you have any questions as you go feel free to ask me as went completed the course earlier this year. Also keep in mind as you go that TC is similar to AoPS in that it covers more actual algebraic content than most Pre-A programs. So when it gets more challenging remind him that he's doing 'real algebra' now.

 

With regards to review at the end of each section we used the 'Extra Practice Worksheets' for this purpose right before taking the Chapter tests.

 

I'm glad to hear that CLE provides longer multistep problems in 800. Though I can imagine all the jumping around may get a bit harder at this stage of things.

 

BTW, we averaged ~ 1.5 hours a day. ds11 finished TC Pre-A in less than a school year at this pace. Now that he is doing AoPS we are spending the same amount of time with it. But I also like our kids spending more time with math than other subjects at this stage.

[TheApprentice]

There are several things that increase my rate of glitchy mistakes. You might compare them to your son's experience to see if some minor change might make a difference for him.

• I make more mistakes when I'm tired, fewer when I'm fresh. This is why many people try to do math first thing in the morning. We are not morning people, but my dd and I do limit our math time to about 30 minutes, because we've found that her performance (and emotional response) plummets with longer lessons. If we need more time than that, we make sure that we at least take a break.

 

• I make fewer mistakes when I'm interested in what I'm working on, more when I'm bored or hate what I am doing. A student who only wants to get the lesson over with will tend to make a lot of mistakes.

 

• I make about the same number of mistakes if I'm working orally, buddy-style, but I tend to catch them more quickly because of our interaction. When my daughter stares at me with a raised eyebrow (or when I do it to her), that's our signal to stop and rethink whatever we just said.

 

• I make more mistakes when I'm under stress. I don't know your son's age, but puberty definitely counts as "under stress" enough to make a mess of mathematical thinking.

 

• While mental glitches can hit me even on a simple problem, I make more mistakes on complicated, multi-step problems. There are so many more chances to make a mistake, and my mind is often rushing ahead to the next step and not paying sufficient attention to the current one.

 

• And finally, I make more mistakes when I'm feeling overwhelmed by something I really don't understand, or when I'm trying to remember a lot of rules that haven't become automatic. (Think of a new driver.)

 

This last case is a problem that definitely needs attention. A student who is making mistakes for this reason needs help, review, time to let the new knowledge coalesce. He may need to redo the lesson from a different angle, with new explanations that might fit better into his overall understanding. Perhaps he needs to go back to earlier topics to firm up the foundational concepts before coming back to the idea that flummoxed him.

 

 

What's in bold, i believe is his problem. My son is 12 (soon to be 13) and is definitely in puberty. I don't feel I need to go back and review concepts, I think he needs to pay more attention to detail, especially in these mult-step equations. For some reason, in hindsight, I don't think CLE was a good fit for him.

 

A question about TabletClass. Is there a text for the Pre-Algebra course? Is it self-paced or do you need to finish the course during a set time? I see that you purchase a year's subscription; is that a school year or an actual calendar year?

[dereksurfs]

 

What's in bold, i believe is his problem. My son is 12 (soon to be 13) and is definitely in puberty. I don't feel I need to go back and review concepts, I think he needs to pay more attention to detail, especially in these mult-step equations. For some reason, in hindsight, I don't think CLE was a good fit for him.

 

A question about TabletClass. Is there a text for the Pre-Algebra course? Is it self-paced or do you need to finish the course during a set time? I see that you purchase a year's subscription; is that a school year or an actual calendar year?

 

TabletClass is web based with worksheets you print out. You set your own pace and can take as long as you need or accelerate as ds11 did. When we purchased it John Zimmerman told us the calendar year subscription would roll into the next course if we finished early. I'm not sure if that is still the policy. But it is worth asking ahead of time. TC offers a free demo here (without their chapter review and tests):

http://www.tabletclass.com/demo/defaultdemo.aspx

[letsplaymath]

Lots of good thoughts here. We always do math first thing, BUT it takes my son anywhere from 1 - 2 hours to complete it lately. I should probably have him break it up into 30 minute increments. He's resistant to that, though. He seems to like TabletClass better than CLE so maybe I'll just stick with that for awhile.

 

 

When we switched to our 30-minute limit, we didn't try to finish the same amount of work in a day. I cut back quite a bit on what we were doing in our normal textbook (by skipping the easy problems and the topics I know she's mastered). I will allow a little bit of leeway if we're in the middle of a problem when we hit our time. We almost always finish the problem.

 

When we do more than 30 minutes of math in a day, it is usually something completely different -- online stuff, or a living math book, or logic puzzles, or whatever.

[Mom0012]

 

 

Ah, Ok. Things really start to pick up more after the first few chapters. Those first two primarily review real numbers, fractions and decimals with the exception of the distributive property and simplifying by combining like terms. So I may be asking you again once you guys get a bit further along. Also if you have any questions as you go feel free to ask me as went completed the course earlier this year. Also keep in mind as you go that TC is similar to AoPS in that it covers more actual algebraic content than most Pre-A programs. So when it gets more challenging remind him that he's doing 'real algebra' now.

 

With regards to review at the end of each section we used the 'Extra Practice Worksheets' for this purpose right before taking the Chapter tests.

 

I'm glad to hear that CLE provides longer multistep problems in 800. Though I can imagine all the jumping around may get a bit harder at this stage of things.

 

BTW, we averaged ~ 1.5 hours a day. ds11 finished TC Pre-A in less than a school year at this pace. Now that he is doing AoPS we are spending the same amount of time with it. But I also like our kids spending more time with math than other subjects at this stage.

 

 

I don't find the extra practice worksheets fit the bill for what I'm looking for. We always do those before the chapter test, and they are great for that, but they are not mixed practice and they are not cumulative. This is a big problem for us with many mastery based programs.

 

I asked my son last night if he wanted to just finish up with CLE over the summer or stick with TC. He said he wanted to do TC because he felt the explanations were so good that he understood things more clearly. But then he said the only problem was that he wasn't getting the practice he needed with TC. My thoughts exactly.

 

In the fall, he's going to start Jann in TX's honors pre-algebra class and I'm hoping Lial's will have the review he needs while Jann supplies the great explanations. I need to take a closer look at the Lial's book now that I am more fully aware of what we need for success. If Lial's doesn't have enough review for my son, I may have him continue with CLE on the weekends.

 

Another program I have filed away in my mind for him is algebra relief. I don't know how rigorous it is, but I know it has a cumulative review at the end of each chapter and we need that. Better yet if it is a mixed practice review rather than just grouping all the same types of problems together.

[dereksurfs]

I don't find the extra practice worksheets fit the bill for what I'm looking for. We always do those before the chapter test, and they are great for that, but they are not mixed practice and they are not cumulative. This is a big problem for us with many mastery based programs.

 

I asked my son last night if he wanted to just finish up with CLE over the summer or stick with TC. He said he wanted to do TC because he felt the explanations were so good that he understood things more clearly. But then he said the only problem was that he wasn't getting the practice he needed with TC. My thoughts exactly.

 

In the fall, he's going to start Jann in TX's honors pre-algebra class and I'm hoping Lial's will have the review he needs while Jann supplies the great explanations. I need to take a closer look at the Lial's book now that I am more fully aware of what we need for success. If Lial's doesn't have enough review for my son, I may have him continue with CLE on the weekends.

 

Another program I have filed away in my mind for him is algebra relief. I don't know how rigorous it is, but I know it has a cumulative review at the end of each chapter and we need that. Better yet if it is a mixed practice review rather than just grouping all the same types of problems together.

 

Ok, I've heard good things about Jann's classes. However I'm not sure you'll find the kind of review of 'all the material' you are looking for which sounds like something comprehensive at the end of each chapter. You're right that most programs are mastery based at this level with a few exceptions like Saxon, CLE, TT, etc... It may actually be better to use more than one resource like you are doing now to create this sort of review yourself. I know with some mastery programs parents will work the odd problems for example to save even ones for review later. This allows them to build in their own review. We supplemented TC with Khan and AoPS when we needed to spend more time on particular areas.

 

Here's a quote from a comparison of CLE with Lials and other Pre-A curriculum:

"We briefly then tried Lial's Prealgebra, but it was also mastery and a college textbook. He liked it better than Chalkdust, but at that point he was so down on himself he needed a totally different approach." --http://www.homeschoo....aspx?id=112928

 

Since you've already payed for TC you may want to ask John Zimmerman this same question regarding extra review questions. He may offer you something else. For example he has workbooks for $19 for each course with practice problems. I don't know if this is additive or not. But it may be worth exploring: http://homeschoolmat...-workbook-page/

[Mom0012]

 

 

Ok, I've heard good things about Jann's classes. However I'm not sure you'll find the kind of review of 'all the material' you are looking for which sounds like something comprehensive at the end of each chapter. You're right that most programs are mastery based at this level with a few exceptions like Saxon, CLE, TT, etc... It may actually be better to use more than one resource like you are doing now to create this sort of review yourself. I know with some mastery programs parents will work the odd problems for example to save even ones for review later. This allows them to build in their own review. We supplemented TC with Khan and AoPS when we needed to spend more time on particular areas.

 

Here's a quote from a comparison of CLE with Lials and other Pre-A curriculum:

"We briefly then tried Lial's Prealgebra, but it was also mastery and a college textbook. He liked it better than Chalkdust, but at that point he was so down on himself he needed a totally different approach." --http://www.homeschoo....aspx?id=112928

 

Since you've already payed for TC you may want to ask John Zimmerman this same question regarding extra review questions. He may offer you something else. For example he has workbooks for $19 for each course with practice problems. I don't know if this is additive or not. But it may be worth exploring: http://homeschoolmat...-workbook-page/

 

Thanks, Derek! I think you are probably right about the lack of cumulative review in all but a few programs. I wish I could switch my son from CLE to Saxon, but I just don't think it would work out from what I have researched. That's what I'm doing with my dd and it is going great (so far -- we just started this summer). I do own CLE Algebra, so I may continue with CLE 800 on the weekends this year and then have him work through the algebra on the weekends if he continues with Jann's class the following year. Or I may have to put together my own mixed cumulative review. Honestly, I'm not sure how effective that will be, or even CLE, just being done on the weekends. I wish I knew what to do with this boy!

 

I just read the link in your post to the discussion about TT. Maybe that is another route I should be considering. I've just heard so much negativity about it being too easy, that I've felt it should be a last resort.

 

I did speak with John about the review issue and he suggests using the self evaluation feature and watching he videos over again that he student didn't feel as confident about. That's just not going to cut it here, I'm afraid. I'll have to take a look at those workbooks. What I did do this week since my son had just had 2 weeks away from math was have him do the even problems from chapter one on Monday and then we did the same thing with chapter 2 on Tuesday. Now he's got his math brain back on and ready to start chapter 3.

[dereksurfs]

Thanks, Derek! I think you are probably right about the lack of cumulative review in all but a few programs. I wish I could switch my son from CLE to Saxon, but I just don't think it would work out from what I have researched. That's what I'm doing with my dd and it is going great (so far -- we just started this summer). I do own CLE Algebra, so I may continue with CLE 800 on the weekends this year and then have him work through the algebra on the weekends if he continues with Jann's class the following year. Or I may have to put together my own mixed cumulative review. Honestly, I'm not sure how effective that will be, or even CLE, just being done on the weekends. I wish I knew what to do with this boy!

 

I just read the link in your post to the discussion about TT. Maybe that is another route I should be considering. I've just heard so much negativity about it being too easy, that I've felt it should be a last resort.

 

I did speak with John about the review issue and he suggests using the self evaluation feature and watching he videos over again that he student didn't feel as confident about. That's just not going to cut it here, I'm afraid. I'll have to take a look at those workbooks. What I did do this week since my son had just had 2 weeks away from math was have him do the even problems from chapter one on Monday and then we did the same thing with chapter 2 on Tuesday. Now he's got his math brain back on and ready to start chapter 3.

Pastel, glad to hear you were able to break things down a little better for him.

 

Have you seen the Lial text yet? That was our first Pre-A text and unfortunately we didn't care for it on a variety of levels. But I know some who have really liked it. Have you looked it over yet and shown it to your son?

 

TT has its limitations regarding rigor as well as S&S. However some really prefer it for their child's learning style. OhElizabeth, for example, uses it and then supplements with BJU for added rigor. That is one way to beef it up but still use it as a spine.

 

I hope you figure out a good combo for him. I would at least let him continue with TC for now until the Fall if you can, even if that means going through at a slower pace. It could really help him get a head start I think in whatever you select next.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

... CLE sells a small book (sample) that just contains the 'algebra' lessons from their math light units. Link to workbook & answer key on this page. Might be worth working through (instead of CLE 800 or a full pre-algebra program) & seeing where you are at the end?

 

 

We used this as well as the other 2 books of math skill development on this page to get ds ready for Algebra 1 at his school:

 

http://www.clp.org/store/by_course/170

[dereksurfs]

We used this as well as the other 2 books of math skill development on this page to get ds ready for Algebra 1 at his school:

 

http://www.clp.org/store/by_course/170

 

Do you think this helped to adequately prepare him? What did he use for Algebra 1?

 

Thanks,

[Mom0012]

Pastel, glad to hear you were able to break things down a little better for him.

 

Have you seen the Lial text yet? That was our first Pre-A text and unfortunately we didn't care for it on a variety of levels. But I know some who have really liked it. Have you looked it over yet and shown it to your son?

 

TT has its limitations regarding rigor as well as S&S. However some really prefer it for their child's learning style. OhElizabeth, for example, uses it and then supplements with BJU for added rigor. That is one way to beef it up but still use it as a spine.

 

I hope you figure out a good combo for him. I would at least let him continue with TC for now until the Fall if you can, even if that means going through at a slower pace. It couls really help him get a head start I think in whatever you select next.

I've got the Lial's book, but I haven't really looked at it closely yet. I guess that will be my project this afternoon. I think we will continue with TC on the weekdays and CLE on the weekends for the remainder of the summer since that's what he wants to do. I only wish there was more time in a day because I'd be willing to give TT a try, but then I'd have to drop something else. I don't like switching around too much. My son used R&S from 1st grade partway through 6th and then we went back to CLE 5 and he's now in the 800 series. Honestly, if I could be sure there would be enough review in TT, I'd think very seriously about it, but I have heard people complain that even though it's spiral, there still isn't enough review. I don't have as much wiggle room to try new things with my son because if he gets behind, it will be very difficult for me to get him caught up.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Do you think this helped to adequately prepare him? What did he use for Algebra 1?

 

Thanks,

 

Actually I do think it helped him a lot since these books are a compilation of all of the teaching from CLE grade 2-8 in those particular areas. We used them as a quick get up to speed after we found out that he was being placed into Algebra 1 in his new school. His new school also gave him free tutoring for about 6 months prior to school as well with a hodgepodge of materials. Now he did CLE grade 4 prior to the past school year where he did Saxon Algebra 1 3rd edition. In the past we also watched a lot of Khan Academy and some the videos from AOPS. Plus we used only periodically MM. In years past he did K12 math which was Sadlier Oxford Math for grades K-3 at home and 3rd grade he did very little math at a private school.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I forgot to add that I would say that the CLE math skill books helped to prepare him the most for Algebra 1 since we only had about 3 months to get ready. The CLE books are good for those who do not need tons of practice and who have only a short period of time to get up to speed IMO.

[allyall]

How about the Key to Algebra booklets for building skills? Great little booklets to help bolster his confidence. How about the Dragonbox Algebra app for a tablet? A game approach to practicing concepts and algebraic thinking.

[NittanyJen]

I have two very different sons; both are quite math talented, but one is (very) slow and meticulous, the other is bunny-quick and prone to sloppy errors.  The second guy always gets the "hard" part of the problems correct, and then falls on his face on the easy stuff just because he lets his guard down and doesn't watch what he's doing.

 

For him, I made up the following chart, and when he finishes an assignment or takes a test, he is required to complete the following checklist before turning anything in to me, or even before self-grading (he uses Life of Fred).  You have my permission to copy and use it for your son.  The idea is that with much repetition, the habit will become ingrained and he will eventually do these things automatically.  Sorry about the grammar . . . I really should get around to cleaning up this list :).  It was late when I first wrote it, and it is after 2am now, so I'm not cleaning it up now either!

 

 

 

Math Work Checklist

 

Did you answer the question that was asked?

                  If they ask how many snakes got loose in the zoo, don’t tell me how many reptiles there are total!

 

Does your answer make sense?

You cannot have 20.6 people in the hospital unless you are a statistician!

 

Does it have the correct units?

                  If the question asks for feet, do not answer in gallons!
 

Is it on the correct scale?

A person should not be 30 feet tall unless they are in a fairy tale!
 

Did you answer all parts of the question?

                  If it is a three-part question, you will not get credit for only answering the first part!
 

Did you check for correct signs (pos/neg) and operations (not add when you should subtract etc)

                  Don’t forget to check for subtracting negative numbers and other sign errors!
 

Did you spot check a few problems for careless computation errors?

                  Rework a few problems backwards!

Did you show your work?

                  If you show your work, I can often give you partial credit, or at least understand where you need more help, or maybe even learn a new way to approach the problem from you!

 Â© Jennette D.T. Driscoll 2012