JumpyTheFrog Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 We've been attending a United Methodist Church about twice a month since the fall. However, average attendance is about 600 (spread over 3 services) which feels huge to us, so we don't know anybody. Also, the UMC requires members to take vows, including one that requires people to be "loyal to Christ through the United Methodist Church." We have two problems with that: 1. We don't really believe in making vows, as Jesus recommended against it. 2. Even if we did feel okay with making vows, we would never make one that vague. We are members of Samaritan Ministries, a Christian medical sharing program that requires its members to be official members of a church. But we aren't willing to join the UMC. Other problems: -Most churches (including so-called non-denominational churches) in our area don't treat women equally. We spent 5 years at a patriarchal church and left after we became both convinced that what we had been taught was completely wrong. (Debating this isn't something I wish to do in this thread. I just want to point out why I feel so strongly.) As a result, I am unwilling to attend any church that forbids women from any role, including churches that let women do everything but be the senior pastor. This means that in our area, 80-90% of churches are out. -I've looked into other denominations that ordain women. The Church of the Nazarene has two congregations but the pastor of one was a jerk and the music at the other was so loud we'd get hearing damage if we went there. Most of the other egalitarianish denominations don't have locations near us. Our previous church had people driving a long way to go to it which made it very difficult to get to know people outside of church. We think staying closer to home makes building relationships much easier. -On top of all this, our understanding of the New Testament indicates that churches were meant to be heavily participatory, not mostly about singing music someone else picked out or listening to a long sermon. We don't think liturgical churches meet Paul's instruction: "What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up." (1 Cor 14:26) Very few churches are set up to allow this (perhaps part of it is done in some Sunday schools, depending on how they are run), and we consider the community coming together to be the whole point of the service! -I've looked through house church directories several times, but they aren't really kept up to date, and most house churches don't list themselves through there. I would really prefer a house church and DH doesn't even see the point of going to a traditional church. (Note: We don't care about what type of building a church meets in. When we say "house church," we really mean something that is more informal, like a Bible study, but also with singing and communion. -DH doesn't think we should attempt to start our own house church. He has no interest in being a leader and thinks I have too much going on to do it. I take James's warning very seriously: "Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." (James 3:1) I really doubt I meet the qualification to be an elder at this point in my lift. Maybe in 20-30 years. We've met a few times with a group of people that meet every other week but they meet 45 minutes away on Saturday nights and don't even start until just before our kids' bedtimes. I've gone without DH and the kids a few times but it ends too late for someone with my energy and sleep problems. What could we do? How can we find a house church? What other options am I not thinking of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted June 23, 2013 Author Share Posted June 23, 2013 I need to go now, so my responses to other people's posts will have to wait until the morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted June 23, 2013 Author Share Posted June 23, 2013 BTW, we've been "in limbo" like this for 2 1/2 years. We attended a house church (too far away in our opinion) for about nine months of that, but chose to leave after learning one of the men was a convicted pedophile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 You might need to revisit what's a deal breaker and what you can live with. I don't think you'll find the perfect fit. :grouphug: What does your dh want to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Our current church sometimes has music that is too loud. I have a pair of foam earplugs in my purse, if the music is too loud, I quickly put them in, it is the perfect volume with them in! :grouphug: It is hard work finding a church, finding a new church is one of the things I am not looking forward to with our upcoming move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 I'm sorry. I'm currently shopping for a new church. I've found a house church that I like. It's an informal meeting for people interested in a church called Community of Christ. My old church/denomination is patriarchal, which is a huge negative for me and is one of the reasons I no longer attend. CoC ordains women to all positions from what I understand. They recently voted to officiate gay weddings and ordain LGBT people. There is no creed. There are a few core beliefs, but there is an emphasis on individual understanding. No two people will hold the exact same view, which I find extremely refreshing after three decades in an increasingly legalistic church. I have very much enjoyed my interaction with CoC members. I have not attended a regular congregation meeting, however, so I don't know how those are formatted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Hoppy, I hear ya. I almost posted a JAWM post this afternoon. We just want a place where the simple gospel is taught and shared. Great Bible study without overly-intense navel gazing and division over secondary issues. Brethren that exhort and encourage each other in love, no one trying to wipe multitudes of specks from the eyes of others while ignoring logs in his own. No counselors of Job. A place where we sing together, not just watch a performance, and with the lights left on, please. A community that is willing to show the love of Christ through service to others, and not just to increase the comfort level of those in the group. A community that is not afraid to get messy in meeting the real needs of others within their circle of acquaintance and beyond, in the larger world. No signing ridiculous membership covenants which, like the OT law, would be used to measure one's performance (or lack thereof). Sigh. I hear ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Have you considered the Salvation Army? It's not just a thrift store. I've heard others with similar concerns say they found it to be a good fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Quaker comes to mind, in the egalitarian, participation aspects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 I agree that you'll probably have to decide, from your list, what's mandatory and what's not. Or start your own local church, which you've said isn't really an option. I hope you can find something in which you can draw closer to communion with God! I don't know if you'll find it interesting to note that the early church was very liturgical with the apostles and beyond, before Scripture you quoted was written and canonized. So somehow, because the Holy Spirit doesn't mess up, the early church was liturgical and was what was described later in the Scriptures. Somehow they go together. Our church is definitely patriarchal according to your definition (the priesthood and diaconate are male-only), but I can also tell you that I've been part of the protestant patriarchal movement to a degree and yet now -- even with a male-only priesthood -- I've never felt more valued and equal as a woman. Women are thoroughly appreciated, valued, utilized and respected in Orthodoxy. The Mother of God is held up even by the priests as our best example of a Christian and that we should all -- men and women -- try to live our lives like her in surrender to Christ; women saints throughout time and throughout the world are honored daily in the readings; priests will seek out and honor the advice of an abbess of a monastery, women can lead the choir/parish council/classes, etc. There are many, many leadership roles women can fill -- just not the priesthood, since that's the apostolic and biblical model we were given. That's the only reason for the male priesthood, not because women are not equal. [side note to Seasider -- as for paying attention to the log in one's own eye and not the speck in a brother's eye, this is one area where Orthodoxy shines brighter than anything I've ever experienced. Daily, weekly, monthly, regularly we're exhorted to keep our eyes on our own plate as it were. I have puh-lenty in my own life to deal with that I have absolutely no business noticing my brother's problems and judging him for them.] Just thought to throw it out there in case liturgy and/or male leadership might be a non-mandatory in the end. I do love our church. It has been the best thing that could have ever happened to our faith. We are taught to press into communion with God and then are given the ancient tools that have withstood the test of time in order to do so. We fall, yes, But we get back up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamzanne Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Are you interested in sharing where you are located (generally)? I am part of a church that sounds like it would interest you but we are just a local congregation. There are many others like us around the US but there is no organizing structure, so I can't exactly point you to a website or anything. We meet in a house but don't consider ourselves a house church. You could pm me if you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingedradical Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 If you can find one in your area, Evangelical Covenant is generally egalitarian. There are individual churches that tend more toward patriarchy, but the denomination itself is egal. It is too theologically liberal for me, but how about Episcopalian? Finally, you might look at www.cbeinternational.com, which is an evangelical organization which believes and promotes egalitarinism (the belief that men and women are called equally to serve in marriage and church while holding to a high view of scripture0. They used to keep an (incomplete) list of egalitarian churches according to state/country. The churches ranged from main line liberal to evangelical quaker (not all those are egal in practice) to some charismatics. Although i don't want to mislead you - truly egalitarian churches are few and far between and are mostly found in groups that are theologically liberal in all areas. But if that is fine with you, there are quite a few out there. There are many fewer for people like me who are firm on the Apostle's Creed but believe that the Bible teaches reconciliation and equality between the genders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingedradical Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 If you can find one in your area, Evangelical Covenant is generally egalitarian. There are individual churches that tend more toward patriarchy, but the denomination itself is egal. It is too theologically liberal for me, but how about Episcopalian? Finally, you might look at www.cbeinternational.com, which is an evangelical organization which believes and promotes egalitarinism (the belief that men and women are called equally to serve in marriage and church while holding to a high view of scripture0. They used to keep an (incomplete) list of egalitarian churches according to state/country. The churches ranged from main line liberal to evangelical quaker (not all those are egal in practice) to some charismatics. Although i don't want to mislead you - truly egalitarian churches are few and far between and are mostly found in groups that are theologically liberal in all areas. But if that is fine with you, there are quite a few out there. There are many fewer for people like me who are firm on the Apostle's Creed but believe that the Bible teaches reconciliation and equality between the genders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 I never knew it was so hard to find a church. I just go for people I generally like and nothing I find offensive. There are some people in church who I find a bit conservative for my taste and the minister is far more literal about the bible than I am but I don't have to agree with everything and everybody. There are days when the music irritates me (if people have stopped singing with vigour either you have picked the wrong song or it has gone on too long - either way it.is.time.to.stop). But none of this stuff is that important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelwydd Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Our church is definitely patriarchal according to your definition (the priesthood and diaconate are male-only), but I can also tell you that I've been part of the protestant patriarchal movement to a degree and yet now -- even with a male-only priesthood -- I've never felt more valued and equal as a woman. Women are thoroughly appreciated, valued, utilized and respected in Orthodoxy. The Mother of God is held up even by the priests as our best example of a Christian and that we should all -- men and women -- try to live our lives like her in surrender to Christ; women saints throughout time and throughout the world are honored daily in the readings; priests will seek out and honor the advice of an abbess of a monastery, women can lead the choir/parish council/classes, etc. There are many, many leadership roles women can fill -- just not the priesthood, since that's the apostolic and biblical model we were given. That's the only reason for the male priesthood, not because women are not equal. Just thought to throw it out there in case liturgy and/or male leadership might be a non-mandatory in the end. I do love our church. It has been the best thing that could have ever happened to our faith. We are taught to press into communion with God and then are given the ancient tools that have withstood the test of time in order to do so. We fall, yes, But we get back up again. Milovany, how can I put this so that it does not come off wrong? I enjoy reading your posts, and I often agree with what you have to say. But--speaking as someone who came out of a patriarchal evangelical Protestant background, only to become enmeshed in a traditional Anglican church, and who also explored both the RCC and the Orthodox churches in depth (meaning, I read the full catecheses of both Churches, I visited several parishes, I corresponded with priests, I attended classes, I attended Vespers, Mass, and Divine Liturgy on multiple ocassions, I read Frederica Mathewes-Green, Scott Hahn, etc,. etc.)--your experience of your Church does not encompass or describe the experience of everyone else. I did not feel that my status was equal to that of men in the view of the Orthodox Church. While I feel that the Orthodox Church has much to offer, it is definitely patriarchal, and in fact is more entrenched in patriarchalism than most churches, because it is so hidebound. Whereas some Protestant churches may hope to adopt an egalitarian model, the EO church cannot. Not without rejecting what is the accepted history of the Apostolic Succession of the last 2000+ years. That won't happen for quite some time, if ever. I'm glad that you feel valued and equal in the EO. It has some very beautiful ritual and deep spirituality. I don't mean to degrade that at all. It's just that it is frustrating, for me at least, to read these types of threads, where a poster specifically states that she is not interested in a patriarchal, male-female hierarchal type church, and then comes the inevitable EO mention as a viable solution anyway. The EO is not, and it cannot be the answer for those who are seeking an egalitarian church. No matter the EO's reason for its male-only priesthood--"the apostolic and biblical model we were given"--the fact that this model excludes women from acting in persona Christi, is no small matter. It's not simply, "oh, we're very affirming of women's vocation except for this one thing...", it's a matter of "Here is the image of Christ--whose image in office cannot be found in any woman," that is so damning of that entire theological belief. Whatever you find in the doctrine of male-only priesthood, this is what I see: that while Christ's Person and image finds a mirror in my male peers--for me and my egalitarian sisters, there is merely a wall. Or a void. Not only that, but all the abbesses in the world do not outweigh even a single bishop's vote when it comes to deciding doctrinal matters of the faith. All the female cup bearers in the world, all the parish leaders, all the alter girls, or any other concession made to female participation in the Church do not outweigh the power a single priest exercises when he instructs a teenage girl, impregnated by rape, how to proceed. Or a married woman how she may space her children. But it's even more than that. You see, the very first Divine Liturgy I ever attended, I was so impressed by the symbology of it all. I went by myself, and I observed it all very closely. I immediately grasped the significance of the priest facing the alter and then turning back towards the congression. I understood he is acting as Christ, representing the people to God and God to the people. I got that. What I did not get and still do not get, is this: if a man is solely able to represent God to us, in the Person of Christ, then how is it that a woman is not there to represent the Church to God, which is always and only referred to as a "She," and whose image was foreshadowed in the person of Mary? Apparently, the form of man is found to be sufficient representation for both the male and the female. But in the female form, there is a mysterious lack of reciprocation. You must (and may already have found) a satisfactory answer to that question for yourself. For me, and I suspect, for other women on this thread, the only answer is this: there is no lack in the feminine. There is only a glaring lack in a male-only order that ignores one-half of God's image, but nonetheless proclaims the equality of value of both. There is nothing equal about that equation. It is inherently unequal, because it is unbalanced. Looking at it from that perspective, perhaps you can understand why the EO--or the RCC, or any other patriarchal church--can never be a negotiable thing for people who truly believe that the Divine image and Person of Christ are found in both male and female together. I hope you understand I am not sharing this to discourage you from sharing about the EO, or your experiences within that Church. I'm only saying this because when you do share, I hope you will keep this post in mind, so you have this undertanding of the true nature of the gulf between a patriarchal view and an egalitiarian one. It's not something that can be dismissed or easily ignored. When I was convinced of the rightness of a male-only priesthood, there was no amount of convenience or beautiful ceremony or magnificent architecture in the world that would convince me to even step foot into a church with even female deacons, much less female priests. It is an inherently different worldview. Honestly, could you accept the host from a woman priest if that's what happend to be offered in 90% of the churches around you? I doubt this is an issue of mere expediency for you. In fact, I'm sure it's not. You are EO, and as such, you should not even abide taking communion outside of an EO church, except in pretty dire circumstances. That is what EO theology demands. Nothing less. So, if I can accept the depth and veracity of your convictions, please do not doubt the OP's, or mine, or other posters who say that attending an egalitarian church is a non-negotiable. 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creekland Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 If it's just for Samaritans, they only require attendance, not actual membership. (BTDT) We've never found a "perfect" (fit) church. (Our perfect fit is different than yours, but...) I'm not sure they exist. We do have one we attend that has many positive things we like about it. The rest we just agree to disagree and know that God doesn't mind. it's the heart that counts. Do you have a Pres (USA) church near you? It might fit. My mom used to go to one and it sounded like it met many of your desires. Don't confuse it with its more conservative cousins (PCA, etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Off the top of my head, Episcopal (yes, it's liturgical and more formal, but yes, people are participating because one person reads the old testament verse, another reads leads the psalm reading, the congregation joins in reading the psalm all together, another reads the epistle, various people are trained to help with communion, the congregation together prays for forgiveness, adds their entreaties to the prayers of the people, etc etc etc). VERY egalitarian considering the Presiding Bishop for the United States is a woman! Also, try Presbyterian USA and Lutheran (ECLA). Lutheran would be VERY similar in worship style to the Episcopal but usually a bit less formal. More "hardworking midwestern" in feel in most places. Oh, also, yes, the smaller the church the more you will find everyone participating. But make sure you include all sorts of things in that particpating...from serving coffee afterwards (the 8th sacrament in an Episcopal church), to working in the nursery to ushering to serving communion to reading the scriptures to praying together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Do you have a Pres (USA) church near you? It might fit. My mom used to go to one and it sounded like it met many of your desires. Don't confuse it with its more conservative cousins (PCA, etc). Ha, yeah...I attended a PC USA for many years. IN college I accidentally attended an Orthodox Presbyterian church, which I had never even heard of. All the women had hats/head coverings. I did not. And when I was warmly greeted and asked my major I think, "Biology" caused some consternation...but maybe I imagined that. I will say that Lutheran or Episcopal will have more "audience participation" than Presbyterian, but Presbyterian is definitely egalitarian if you stick with USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mumto2 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 I think PCUSA might be a great fit for you. That being said I want to share my recent journey with you. We recently changed churches for a huge variety of reasons but the main one is the fact that we learned that the church in our village actually match our reformed beliefs pretty much exactly. We had never given that church serious consideration although we did attend on Sundays when our former 2 hour drive was impractical. We started attending frequently last year because a friend's terminal illness meant I wanted to spend some Sunday afternoon's with her. The distance to our other church made that impossible. During those weeks we all learned to navigate the assorted prayer books etc. and started to really enjoy the services. After that comfort level was achieved it became very hard to attend the church where we were members. The parts that we did not agree with became highlighted. Also after my friend died I reflected upon her deep faith and wondered if my journey with her had not been partly finding a new church -- hers. Now that I am comfortable I love the more formal services. Even the repetitive parts are very comforting. It feels very right. Look hard at your choices. Give churches that you might be crossing off the list for superficial reasons an extra look. Good luck on your journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 We live in a small town, and so our choices are narrow. We had a hard time finding the "right" church for us, but in the end, picked one whose pastor was humble and congregation was sweet, caring, and still interested in learning and growing. So, we may not feel especially challenged, and we do not agree with all of their doctrine (the smaller stuff), but we respect a church whose pastor often admits that he does not have all the answers and he does not expect everyone in the congregation to come to the same conclusions that he has come to on various issues. One day we will be moving to a larger, metropolitan area, and I already know there are churches there that are a closer match to what we are looking for, but in the meantime, we are still glad to be part of some church, rather than none at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 I've never found Sunday services alone led to relationships or a participatory experience. For me, those things came with further involvement and volunteering to run or help with some other program. Have you tried Episcopalian or Unitarian ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upward Journey Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Off the top of my head, Episcopal (yes, it's liturgical and more formal, but yes, people are participating because one person reads the old testament verse, another reads leads the psalm reading, the congregation joins in reading the psalm all together, another reads the epistle, various people are trained to help with communion, the congregation together prays for forgiveness, adds their entreaties to the prayers of the people, etc etc etc). VERY egalitarian considering the Presiding Bishop for the United States is a woman! Also, try Presbyterian USA and Lutheran (ECLA). Lutheran would be VERY similar in worship style to the Episcopal but usually a bit less formal. More "hardworking midwestern" in feel in most places. Oh, also, yes, the smaller the church the more you will find everyone participating. But make sure you include all sorts of things in that particpating...from serving coffee afterwards (the 8th sacrament in an Episcopal church), to working in the nursery to ushering to serving communion to reading the scriptures to praying together. This was one of the most refreshing things for me, coming from Presbyterian (PCA) to Anglican. I felt like I was finally participating IN the service as opposed to merely being an observer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Milovany, how can I put this so that it does not come off wrong? I enjoy reading your posts, and I often agree with what you have to say. Thank you, Rebekah, and I respect your thoughts and opinions. Having never really cared about egalitarianism (because I've never felt unequal, not because I don't think it's a valid issue for those that have), I may not understand the depth of this conviction but my post was all based on what I said at the beginning of it -- there might need to be some decision as to what is negotiable and what is non-negotiable in the OP's search. We have been the place of having to find a church that fit what we wanted/believed numerous times (because those things changed quite a bit over time), and so I know how daunting it can be. I'm not able to pick and choose out of the OP's words what is negotiable and non-negotiable for her and so I posted my input based on my experience. And yes, my experience has been that I feel completely equal in Orthodoxy. I find egalitarianism in Christ, through the Church the Holy Spirit taught, strengthened and guided through history. That's not to say there's nothing in the Orthodox Church that I don't question or wonder about, but I came to realize that the journey isn't about "What do I personally want/believe?" but "What does the apostolic church teach?" We've chosen to change what we believe and get in line with that, and I recognize and respect that not everyone comes to the same decision. We were weary of being our own teacher, thinking we could figure things out on our own that Jesus himself had already given to the apostles. We commemorated this very thing today in the Feast of Pentecost (I thought about you much this morning ;) ) ~ Joyous feast! I'm sure you have thoughts and opinions on that, but I really don't want to hijack the OP's thread further. I was only giving my input to the questions that were asked, based on my experience and understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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