Spelling rule for /ah/ sound?

[Jayne J]

Dd has trouble deciding whether the /ah/ sound in a word is made by the 3rd sound of a (father) or short o (rot). Is there a rule or guide to govern this?

[Ellie]

As far as I know, there is no rule.

 

If she needs to know which one to use, you could just tell her the first time, instead of her trying to figure it out, yes?

[Tracy]

The sound is more commonly spelled with O than with A, so if in doubt, guess O. The exception is that A generally says /ah/ at the end of a word. That is a very, very general guide, though, but it is a good start.

[Ellie]

The sound is more commonly spelled with O than with A, so if in doubt, guess O. The exception is that A generally says /ah/ at the end of a word. That is a very, very general guide, though, but it is a good start.

 

Well, Spalding and its spin-offs teach that a, e, o, and u usually say their second (long) sounds at the end of a short word or syllable.

[ElizabethB]

Of the most common 17,000 words in English, there are only a few within the word with this sound spelled with an a. There are 233 total, most have a at the end as in la or soda or schwa. There are 1531 words with o where the ah sound is clear, and 1710 more were the sound is in an unstressed syllable. (From the ABCs and All Their Tricks by Margaret Bishop, based on the Hanna Study of the most common 17,000 words in English.)

 

The book is great. I also own the Hanna study, the book is much more user friendly than the study.

[Tracy]

 

Well, Spalding and its spin-offs teach that a, e, o, and u usually say their second (long) sounds at the end of a short word or syllable.

 

 

Yes, with the exception of when A is at the end of a word (as in banana), it says /ah/. At least that is what SWR teaches.

[Ellie]

 

Yes, with the exception of when A is at the end of a word (as in banana), it says /ah/. At least that is what SWR teaches.

 

 

Most commonly, "a" at the end of a word says its second (long) sound. That's Rule 4. Banana would be an except to the rule (it is an exception in the first syllable, too). Mrs. Sanseri learned that from Mrs. Spalding. :-)

 

As someone has pointed out, there are very few words in which "a" says /ah/. :-)

[A home for their hearts]

Logic of English teaches that a says /ah/ at the end of a word. I think it's a little more detailed than that, I'll have to look back to that last to give you a better description.

[Tracy]

 

Most commonly, "a" at the end of a word says its second (long) sound. That's Rule 4. Banana would be an except to the rule (it is an exception in the first syllable, too). Mrs. Sanseri learned that from Mrs. Spalding. :-)

 

As someone has pointed out, there are very few words in which "a" says /ah/. :-)

 

 

Ellie, it sounds like you are saying that I am mistaken about what SWR teaches. It is most definitely on my rule card that A usually says /ah/ at the end of a word.

[Ellie]

 

Ellie, it sounds like you are saying that I am mistaken about what SWR teaches. It is most definitely on my rule card that A usually says /ah/ at the end of a word.

 

 

Perhaps this is one of the changes to the Spalding Method that Mrs. Sanseri made and why I prefer Spalding. :-)

 

Spalding teaches that the single-letter phonogram "a" has three sounds: a (as in bat), a (the "long" sound), and a (as in father). It isn't necessary to explain that further, other than to recognize the fact that the first sound is the most common, and the last sound is the least common (which is true of all phonograms which have multiple sounds). Rule 4 says that a, e, o and u usually say their second sounds at the end of a short word or syllable.

 

So if you tell me that Mrs. Sanseri makes a point of saying that "a" usually says /ah/ at the end of a word, I believe you. I disagree with her, but then I am only a Spalding geek, not a Sanseri geek. :-)

[Ellie]

 

After I purchased the WRTR (6th edition), I downloaded free phonogram cards, not made by Spalding, from the internet. The "a" card says:

• A as in apple (short vowel sound/first sound)

• A as in ape (long vowel sound)

• A as in all

 

(with the symbols above the letters, which I don't know how to create here.) Since A obviously says "ah" as in father, I added that as the fourth sound. Are you saying that we're doing something wrong, since you don't list the "A as in all" sound at all? It's quite a common sound, though. We speak British English, which is probably relevant. DS has been chanting that A says "A (short sound), A (long sound), A (as in all) and A (as in father)".

 

No, I was just going by memory of the sounds that "a" makes. I wasn't reading it off the card. :-) But I would not have added a fourth sound. There are only three. "A" in "all" is pretty much the same sound as it is in "father." In the fifth edition, "father" is on page 291 of the spelling list; the "a" is notated with a 3, denoting the third sound of "a."

 

I also noticed that the "o as in son" isn't listed under O, though it's quite frequent. I'd love your thoughts on that.

 

For spelling (remembering that we think for spelling), we say it with the second sound of "o." Apparently, Mrs. Spalding didn't think it was important to do or say otherwise. :-) (There are general instructions on how to do that in the spelling lesson.)

 

Spalding has been fascinating to me, as someone who picked English reading and spelling up spontaneously without any form of instruction. It has helped my kids quite a bit. I do wonder if the rules can confuse rather than help intuitive spellers sometimes, especially after seeing threads like this. Apparently, there isn't a consensus on what the rules are at all.

 

 

Of course, you should understand what the "rules" are. There are 27 of them. That "a" has three sounds is not a rule. That it says its second sound at the end of a short word or syllable is a rule.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Do all of you really say buh-NAN-ah? To me it sounds like everyone (American) says buh-NAN-uh. The first and last syllables rhyme. How can you even make the last syllable sound like "ah" in "father" without making the accented syllable shift from the second to the third syllable?

[mrs.m]

All= awl father = faw-ther But I can pronounce how you say it and like it better than the sound that comes from the back of our throats to say all. 😠I come from the land of over Schwa use and say buh nan nuh.

[Tracy]

Something that is difficult for many to wrap their brains around is the "think-to-spell" activity that goes along with the Spalding-type programs. The phonogram sounds and the rules are an attempt to simplify a language which has been derived from many other languages with vastly different rules and sounds, and which has many different dialects and pronunciations. Take a word, such as "was" that many programs teach as a sight word. For our purposes, we say that the "A" says its third sound /ah/, and that the "S" says its second sound /z/. Of course, in conversation, we say /w/-/u/-/z/. But for the purposes of spelling, we think /w/-/ah/-/z/. And as we analyze this word, we would mark the A and S to show that they do not say their more common sounds. These conventions help us to remember how to spell this word.

 

Alternatively, we could add another sound to the A, saying that it says /u/. But then you would have to add that sound to every other vowel, as well, because whenever a vowel shows up in an unaccented syllable, it tends to devolve into the sound that has come to be known as the schwa sound. For the purposes of spelling, that would be very confusing if every vowel could say the same sound. We would have no way to know which vowel to use.

 

Consequently, what we do instead is to think to spell a word by emphasizing each letter's correct sound and pointing out specific silent letters and their accompanying rule. Take a word like "chicken." If you didn't know how to spell this word, you might write "chickin." So we emphasize the short E sound in the second syllable, thinking "chick - en" so that we can remember so spell it with an E.

 

This is all meant to reduce the amount of sight words, and the number of rules and phonogram sounds that we have to memorize. It is an attempt to make it as easy as possible for people who do not find the English language intuitive (which most of us do not). The various Spalding-type programs do have minor differences in how they approach this, but largely they have the same philosophy.

[dbmamaz]

LOE has a whole chart of the various broad a (as in father) and short o (as in hop) sounds that you are supposed to copy in to your spelling journal - you have to memorize which word takes what. a at the end of a word or before a double ll? o, au, aw, augh . . . you have to learn which to use when by rote

[Ellie]

 

I've heard that opinion before, but I respectfully disagree. "A as in all" and "A as in father" are entirely dissimilar. When I hear this opinion, I honestly wonder how Americans pronounce either "all" or "father". "A as in all" is more like the short O vowel sound than the "A" as in father, or banana. Though again, "banana" pronounced by a Brit is different than "banana" pronounced by an American.

 

Would you mind describing how you pronounce these words, since you think these two sounds are pretty much the same?

 

I understand that "X letter has X number of sounds" isn't a rule. However, "A says its name at the end of a syllable or short word" is (this definition comes from Explode the Code, but Spalding says essentially the same, yes?). Apparently, other programs say that "A" usually says "A as in father" at the end of a word. That's something quite different.

 

(I don't mean to drive you crazy, honestly. I'm genuinely interested, especially in the difference between US and UK English and how that affects people's thoughts on spelling.)

 

 

You're brassier than I to disagree with Mrs. Spalding. :lol:

 

For the sake of teaching children to read and spell, overfocussing on the exact minute differences that a vowel makes in different words taking into account regional/national accents is not very productive. Spalding teaches children to read by teaching them to spell. It encourages clear pronunciation for the sake of correct spelling, which also helps the reading. In the classroom, there might be discussion of the fact that where we live we say this sound slightly differently but for the sake of spelling, it is *this* pronunciation.

 

Spalding says that a, e, o an u *usually* say their second sounds at the end of short words or syllables. I am most familiar with Spalding, but I did use a few other products in my little school (R&S, victory Drill Book, a little bit of ABeka's first grade phonics); most of those don't teach the third sound of "a" to first graders as soon as Spalding (and its spin-offs) does. Maybe the introduced such a generalization further on; IDK.

[Ellie]

 

 

Could you please share if you say "faw ther"? If so, I completely understand that you call these differences minute (indeed, you could say non-existent!). If not, you'd probably also feel that the sounds are very, very different. I can accept saying the short O sound in "son" for spelling purposes (DD, who is more stubborn than I am, can't however :)). I might even be able to accept saying "faw ther" for spelling purposes, if that is how it "should" be done. Should it? There are many other cases in which A says "Ah" and not "Aw".

 

No, I don't say "faw-ther." I miss your point, though. I don't think I've been saying that it does. o_0

 

I will say that I do like the fact that the WRTR notes differences for British English. We use those. And they're mainly related to sounds of A, now I think of it. I can look them up if it helps.

 

In our case, I also have to be careful because my kids are trilingual in a non-English speaking country. If I say "son" with the short O sound for spelling purposes too many times, it's entirely possible that they will start pronouncing it like that all the time.

 

OP, I'm sorry for hijacking your thread. Back to your regular broadcasting now :).

 

When you're doing the spelling lesson, you say a word both ways: for spelling and for speech. The only time you would pronounce "son" with a short o is during the spelling lesson.

[A home for their hearts]

I'm confused. /ah/ and /aw/ sound very close to me. hmmm

[Ellie]

I'm confused. /ah/ and /aw/ sound very close to me. hmmm

 

That's because they are close, not unlike the difference between i (pin) and e (pen). :D

[mrs.m]

To me their is no difference between /ah/ and /aw/. So I suppose I say it fah-ther because that is the same as faw-ther. ...... Ellie, what is the difference? I can pronounce a difference between pen and pin.

[Ellie]

To me their is no difference between /ah/ and /aw/. So I suppose I say it fah-ther because that is the same as faw-ther. ...... Ellie, what is the difference? I can pronounce a difference between pen and pin.

 

Perhaps a linguist or a speech specialist could explain it better. IDK. There's a slight difference. You probably say Don and Dawn the same, too. :-)

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I'm confused. /ah/ and /aw/ sound very close to me. hmmm

 

Thank goodness I'm not the only one! My "father" rhymes with "bother." And the vowel sound in both of those is the same as the sound in "rot." I do say buh-NAN-uh, but I wish it was my habit to say buh-NAH-nuh--I love the way that sounds :D This whole discussion has my head spinning!

[8filltheheart]

FWIW, this entire discussion is why I find that teaching spelling via phonograms/rules is simply unrealistic for all kids, especially kids that want to rule their way into correct spelling. If it takes 26 responses for adults to discuss the sound of the letter A in the word father, a child that simply does not imprint A for the the ah sound father will not spell it correctly, regardless of the finer pts of articulation.

 

Really, Mrs. Spalding does not have the answer for teaching all children how to spell. ;) It takes whatever that particular child needs to imprint the correct phonogram choice into their long term memory.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

 

Really, Mrs. Spalding does not have the answer for teaching all children how to spell. ;)

 

I hope Ellie doesn't know your address! :lol:

[Ellie]

 

I hope Ellie doesn't know your address! :lol:

 

:smilielol5:

[Ellie]

FWIW, this entire discussion is why I find that teaching spelling via phonograms/rules is simply unrealistic for all kids, especially kids that want to rule their way into correct spelling. If it takes 26 responses for adults to discuss the sound of the letter A in the word father, a child that simply does not imprint A for the the ah sound father will not spell it correctly, regardless of the finer pts of articulation.

 

Really, Mrs. Spalding does not have the answer for teaching all children how to spell. ;) It takes whatever that particular child needs to imprint the correct phonogram choice into their long term memory.

 

 

I have often said that millions of children have learned to read with methods other than Spalding. :-)

 

OTOH, I'm sure there are at least hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of children who have, so I'll continue to recommend it. :-)

[8filltheheart]

 

I have often said that millions of children have learned to read with methods other than Spalding. :-)

 

OTOH, I'm sure there are at least hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of children who have, so I'll continue to recommend it. :-)

 

 

Ah, I am not disagreeing with learning to read. ;) It is learning to spell. :)

[Ellie]

 

Ah, I am not disagreeing with learning to read. ;) It is learning to spell. :)

 

 

But it's the same thing with Spalding. Children learn to read by learning to spell. :-)

[8filltheheart]

 

But it's the same thing with Spalding. Children learn to read by learning to spell. :-)

 

 

Not worth arguing w/you over it b/c we all know your position. Just sharing that it is not the same thing in my experience. My kids learned to be great decoders (hence great readers), but it did not translate into correct spelling.

[Ellie]

My kids learned to be great decoders (hence great readers), but it did not translate into correct spelling.

 

 

Oh, this is totally true. We have that discussion here all the time. It is one of the reasons that Spalding and its spin-offs are such great methods: they teach children to read by teaching them to spell, as opposed to teaching reading first and then adding spelling.

[Jayne J]

Er... Wow. I had no idea this was such a a potentially controversial subject! Thank you all for your input. Perhaps I should be a little more specific in my question.

Dd is reading well, but slowly. She can generally sound out a word phonetically, although it may take her a few tries. But none of it is carrying over to spelling. For example, this Father's Day, her card read:

"For mie fother on Fothers Dai..." So, yes, ie can make the long I sound, and yes, the /ah/ in father does sound like the short o sound (at least it does to us :) ) and ai does make the long a sound...but...

 

How would you work with this?

 

Oh, and while I have great respect for you Ellie, Spaulding (via WRTR) is nothing but a huge pile of massive confusing gobbledygook to me. I have tried, and tried, and tried. I have read, reread, highlighted and underlined. I can't figure it out. I am simple, I admit it. So, any *other* suggestions would be welcome. (Said with much love and respect)

[Ellie]

Er... Wow. I had no idea this was such a a potentially controversial subject! Thank you all for your input. Perhaps I should be a little more specific in my question.

Dd is reading well, but slowly. She can generally sound out a word phonetically, although it may take her a few tries. But none of it is carrying over to spelling. For example, this Father's Day, her card read:

"For mie fother on Fothers Dai..." So, yes, ie can make the long I sound, and yes, the /ah/ in father does sound like the short o sound (at least it does to us :) ) and ai does make the long a sound...but...

 

How would you work with this?

 

Oh, and while I have great respect for you Ellie, Spaulding (via WRTR) is nothing but a huge pile of massive confusing gobbledygook to me. I have tried, and tried, and tried. I have read, reread, highlighted and underlined. I can't figure it out. I am simple, I admit it. So, any *other* suggestions would be welcome. (Said with much love and respect)

 

No need to apologize. :-) Except that it is Spalding, not Spaulding, lol.

 

How old is she? 6ish? I would expect her to still not spell well. :-)

 

At another time, you can have her write words that have "y" at the end, so that she'll see that in short words with y at the end, the y says long i. You can do the same with short words that end with ay, and point out that English words don't end with i, so we use ay. As far as the o instead of a, just teach her the correct spelling. There's no rule. :-)

[PIE!]

Don't know if it's helpful, but usually the /ah/ sound after a "w" is spelled with an "a" (ex. Water, wash, waddle). Other words (like father) just need to be memorized IMO.

[Jayne J]

 

 

No need to apologize. :-) Except that it is Spalding, not Spaulding, lol.

 

How old is she? 6ish? I would expect her to still not spell well. :-)

 

At another time, you can have her write words that have "y" at the end, so that she'll see that in short words with y at the end, the y says long i. You can do the same with short words that end with ay, and point out that English words don't end with i, so we use ay. As far as the o instead of a, just teach her the correct spelling. There's no rule. :-)

 

 

Told you I couldn't figure it out--I can't even spell it. :blush: :rofl:

She is actually about to turn 8 in August. She had a hard time with phonics so we slowed down and dwelt as long as she needed. She is finally starting to get a good handle on it, which is why I am feeling comfortable turning to other subjects a little now. Currently we are using word lists from Zaner-Bloser's Spelling Connections. They are grouped by spelling rule. We have actually already covered the shy, my, fly, etc list. She just doesn't retain it. I wonder if it is just a function of time?

[Ellie]

Told you I couldn't figure it out--I can't even spell it. :blush: :rofl:

She is actually about to turn 8 in August. She had a hard time with phonics so we slowed down and dwelt as long as she needed. She is finally starting to get a good handle on it, which is why I am feeling comfortable turning to other subjects a little now. Currently we are using word lists from Zaner-Bloser's Spelling Connections. They are grouped by spelling rule. We have actually already covered the shy, my, fly, etc list. She just doesn't retain it. I wonder if it is just a function of time?

 

It takes more than a few spelling lessons to be able to retain the information on a long-term basis. It has to be in the spelling lesson, and in writing her own sentences, and in writing thank you notes, and everything. :-)

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Interesting. Can I ask, does she read a lot on her own (or with you, but looking at the page)? I noticed that my youngest had a harder time with things like this early on because she wasn't reading much--she preferred audiobooks instead. When I curbed the audiobook habit, she began to read more, and her spelling improved rapidly. I know this isn't the case for everyone, but I thought I'd throw it out there just in case.