Where is the logic?

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So I have been browsing all the "what are you using threads" for fall and very few people even have logic scheduled for next year..or if they do they have big fat ? mark.

So are your logic stage kids not doing logic?

Is it that you cant fit it in.

Do you not like the recommendations?

I am trying to figure out what to use with my reluctant 12 yr old who has had no logic as of yet and trying to decide if I need to start with the 5th grade recommends in the WTM or If I just jump in at grade level but when I am searching no recommendations are showing up.

So either my search skill are off or no one is doing it :)

and on another note why has no one written a Spock's guide to logic...I might be able to actually interest my kid in that ;)

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Spock would be great :) I think logic is very much needed in today's world. I wish I had learnt it when I was a child. About three years ago I read Nance's Intro to Logic and did all the exercises myself. I found that it had subtle yet profound effects on my interactions with others and the world. <p> This is how I taught it to my son: when he was 11 I read The Fallacy Detective to him. He loved it because it's also quite funny. About 6 months ago we started Nance's Intro to Formal Logic, with the text, DVDs and answer key (you definitely need the answer key). Go as slow as you need to. </p>

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Been trough the fallacy detective, and currently working through the Memoria Press Traditional Logic. It actually seem to have the basics pretty well covered, but the best part in not so much in the explanations (which I feel could have been better) but in rather extensive exercises that drives the points home as you work with them. Given that many answers will be binary (ie true or false) I tend not to correct individual questions (as that would give away the correct answer and immediately stop any brain activity) but indicate that a certain section must be repeated as it has too many errors.

PS. It should be noted that the Traditional Logic is, for some incomprehensible reason, mixing religion into an otherwise pretty good book. Statements such as "man is made in God's image" and the like pop up all over with no apparent reason as secular examples would prove the same point (and for non-religious, or non-Christians probably a lot better, since such statement for these would be the equivalent of "Unicorns are intelligent animals" whose truth value is uncertain to say the least.).

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I agree that it's the exercises that are so important to really 'getting' it. I make my son create a syllogism out of an enthymeme every day, ie to find the missing term and then put it into form, and then decide if it's valid.

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Hmm. I remember seeing a lot of people with logic scheduled in the 7th grade thread. I follow the 5th grade thread, too. I don't start logic until 6th grade (Fallacy Detective), so I'm not scheduling it with my 5th grader. I don't always follow WTM recs & we have only so much time in the day!

Ok, I skimmed back through the 7th grade thread to check my memory. My rough count was about 27 out of 56 plans listed logic (with about five of those with ? or blank spots indicating they want to do logic but don't know what they'll use for it yet). It was averaging 1/3 for the first half of the list, with a higher percentage of the later posters listing a logic course.

So, perhaps only 1/3 of WTM posters schedule logic for their logic-stage kids. IMO, we can't do everything & some of us are still hitting 'the basics' to get them firm before we get to high school. (Spin off: It would be interesting to check on foreign language, too.)

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My ds is going in to 5th and beginning to show he's entering the logic stage. I'm using logic workbooks that I come across, such as Perplexors. I hope to do more formal logic in 7th/8th.

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Up until this point we have done a lot of logic puzzle type things. DS 11 has those down. So right now I'm kinda just waiting around before doing something more formal. We also read through parts (and continue to read) of Critical Thinking book 1.

I often don't list what I'm doing for logic. I guess because we don't do it on a regular basis at this point.

This. My ds worked through a Building Thinking Skills book and although he liked it well enough I think getting the next level will get a bit redundant. I do plan on having my younger ds get the BTS book for younger kids.

I like to focus on logic as it connects to math. So my 5th grader will continue math logic activities.

But we're not at a place to do formal logic yet. I am however going to focus on ethics/philosophy more this year, so that will stand in for our "logic."

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We haven't done any formal logic yet and I don 't know when we will. She just does so.much.math and robotics/computer things that I don't stress about it now.

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RootAnn you made me smile, its too early in my day for percentages :) Though that being said, wow , a lot has been added to that thread since I first went though it!

I am curious about the foreign lang. as well.

I wonder if so many people skip it because we were never taught it. I know just from looking over sample pages of the various texts I am pretty stumped.

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So are your logic stage kids not doing logic?

We've done Red Herring Mysteries and are currently working thru a Mind Benders workbook. In August, we'll start Art of Argument. There is a second book in that series (and I can't remember the name), but we'll try that one afterwards.

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DS will start 5th in the fall. We're still doing logic rather informally, so he'll do Orbiting With Logic, along with Mindbenders and Balance Benders. He also does computer programming which builds logical thinking.

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Took a little more time to do a better tally.

58 people posted their schedules (not including a linked one that didn't appear to exist anymore)

28 had Latin listed (48%)

38 had another foreign language listed (28 had one, 6 had two, four didn't know what they were going to use, but had plans)

17 people listed both Latin & another foreign language (29%)

31 planned on doing Logic of some sort (including "critical thinking books") - 53% - but five of those didn't know what they were going to use yet.

Almost 1/4 of the people (14) on the whole thread were planning on doing Logic, Latin, & another foreign language. Almost half were attempting both Logic & at least one foreign language.

I didn't tally what the programs were. Quite a few people plan to do Mapping the World Through Art. Also, I was interested to note how many people were doing both history AND geography.

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My ds will be in 5th grade this fall and I bought Logic Countdown and Logic Lift Off for him to use. I didn't list those in the 5th grade thread because at the time I commented I hadn't thought about Logic yet. I feel like he is also learning plenty of logic through games and everyday situations. I mostly bought the Logic books because I thought he would enjoy them. ;)

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We've done Red Herring Mysteries and are currently working thru a Mind Benders workbook. In August, we'll start Art of Argument. There is a second book in that series (and I can't remember the name), but we'll try that one afterwards.

Did you like Red Herring Mysteries? My DD (11) saw that when I was browsing the Critical Thinking website and thought it sounded fun! :)

We've done The Fallacy Detective this year as a read-aloud and I have The Thinking Toolbox on the shelf for next year. I also bought Logic Liftoff (I think that's it - workbook with a cute rocket-ship lol) for my 4th gr DS since he's really enjoyed listening in on the Fallacy Detective readings!

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We did informal logic in 5th and 6th grade (logic liftoff, logic games etc)

We are using the Critical Thinking series by Anita Harnadek as well as the Critical Thinking in United States History series. I intend to carry through with those series in 8th grade.

I would introduce formal logic in 9th grade, but it is looking like he is going to attend public high school, so it might not happen. I am also not certain I can find a secular formal logic program for homeschoolers. I had been planning to figure that out when he was in 8th grade.

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Did you like Red Herring Mysteries? My DD (11) saw that when I was browsing the Critical Thinking website and thought it sounded fun! :)

My son absolutely loved it! You read a short passage with a question at the end explaining how something could happen and the kids have to ask you yes/no questions to figure out what happens in the story. My kids thought it was a lot of fun. :thumbup1: It's non-consumable, too...so you can use it with multiple students.

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Come to think of it I didn't list one for my rising 8th grader, but I did for the 5th grader.

The 8th grader has already done the logic puzzles thing, Art of Argument and such. This fall she'll work through Weston's slim A Rulebook for Arguments. Everything's an Argument is also on the shelf.

The fifth grader has already started in on his Prufrock Press and Mind Benders books. If he runs out of those I'll start him on Art of Argument slowly.

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I am also not certain I can find a secular formal logic program for homeschoolers. I had been planning to figure that out when he was in 8th grade.

Peter Kreefts "Socratic Logic" has minimal religious references (and most of those not stated as absolute truths). Author is Catholic though if I recall correctly.

Also

Scott Sullivans "An introduction to Traditional Logic" is worth looking at as it is completely free of ANY religious references. (Albeit I like the Kreeft book better).

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Oh goodness--I've been looking forward to logic since reading WTM in 2000, lol. Ds hit 5th grade, & I was THRILLED--then realized we were only supposed to do informal stuff, so I ordered Logic Liftoff, etc, & kept waiting. Heard Cothran speak last summer about Traditional Logic & knew THEN which program I wanted to use, but he *strongly* urged parents not to start it before 7th grade. Well, 6th was kinda nutty at our house, so logic fell through the cracks (although, technically Fallacy Detective is still on our shelves).

7th grade starts in what--2mos? Yipeeeeeeeeeeee! LOL--I had logic in college & LOVED it. But I try to keep college-level topics for my elem/early mid school kids to a minimum. ;)

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Heard Cothran speak last summer about Traditional Logic & knew THEN which program I wanted to use, but he *strongly* urged parents not to start it before 7th grade.

Yeah, definitely don't use that one before 7th grade! My friend pulled her 7th grader out of ps, bought TL based on the recommendation of TWTM and he couldn't get past the first few pages. It was WAY over his head. I flipped through it to see if my daughter could use it next year and it was way over MY head! :lol:

Since we're all talking about logic sequence, here's my official plan (some of this we've already done, like I posted earlier):

Mind Benders (they've been doing these since 3rd grade)

Red Herring Mysteries

The Art of Argument (starting in August)

The Discovery of Deduction

The Argument Builder

And we'll probably just stop there, because my oldest will probably be around 9th grade at that point.

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My (now) ds13 completed Building Thinking Skills 2 in 4th, and then we started logic in 5th with Mind Benders and Red Herring Mysteries, in 6th we did Critical Thinking Book 1, and in 7th we are using Art of Argument. My son loves logic and I can't see stopping it. I have my ds9 doing BTS 1 - but he does not love it like my ds13, so I'm not sure if we'll follow the same path for him or not.

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and in 7th we are using Art of Argument. My son loves logic and I can't see stopping it.

What are you planning to use after Art of Argument?

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Re: MP's Trad Logic - I have read on here that the first chapter is a doozie. Some people skip it (completely or come back to it later). Another person (fluffybunny) said she liked a different course (Canon Press's Intro to Logic) for the first year of formal logic & then use MP's Trad Logic II. (Link to thread that has this in there.)

Edited by RootAnn
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Re: MP's Trad Logic - I have read on here that the first chapter is a doozie. Some people skip it (completely or come back to it later). Another person (fluffybunny) said she liked a different course (Canon Press's Intro to Logic) for the first year of formal logic & then use MP's Trad Logic II. (Link to thread that has this in there.)

Wow, thank-you for posting this. I'm going to see my friend on Monday and I'll be sure to tell her. I think we'll all feel better knowing that!

Apparently, I need to spend more time reading on these boards.

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I schedule the fallacy detective and toolbox books in their reading.

Otherwise logic is about reasoned thinking. IMO it's best grown by daily use. I don't really care if they know the technical term for what kind of fallacy it is. That's nifty. But what I really want is for them to THINK..

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What are you planning to use after Art of Argument?

Well, according to TWTM I should do Memoria Press' Traditional Logic I, however I haven't looked into it, so I'm not sure if that's what I'll use.

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I don't have it in my 7th grade post, but I'm thinking of having DS go through The Great Chocolate Caper.

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I absolutely hated the mp logic books. So did my older kids. Mind numbingly boring and didn't stick at all. Completely waste of money imnsho

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I schedule the fallacy detective and toolbox books in their reading.

Otherwise logic is about reasoned thinking. IMO it's best grown by daily use. I don't really care if they know the technical term for what kind of fallacy it is. That's nifty. But what I really want is for them to THINK..

Having used Fallacy Detective, what level do you think it is best suited for? (Reading and maturity wise)

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6th grade and up. The reading level is probably 3rd or 4th and up.

I usually schedule it in their 7th grade reading list.

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Thanks!

I keep looking at that and at the Art of Arguement/Discovery of Deduction trying to decide which, if any and if any, when.

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Just wanted to clarify, we do logic now through games, puzzles and Mindbenders style workbooks. I know I want to cover more than just analogies and problem solving; I think covering other aspects of logic is an important way to equip our kids with excellent BS meters. (A helpful tool for any young, or other age, adult)

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Having used Fallacy Detective, what level do you think it is best suited for? (Reading and maturity wise)

I used it this year with dd#1 (young 6th grade). We read it together & took turns answering the questions at the back of each chapter. DD had fun with it; liked it when Mom wasn't always right; and really enjoyed the one-on-one time with me, IMO. It was her favorite class while it lasted (3/4ths of the year).

There were some interesting spin-offs because sometimes people or references would come up that she wasn't familiar with. We'd go & look them up (actress, movie, etc.).

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I'm not sure if anyone would be interested in exploring Logicary Press. I posted in the General Education forum about it a while back and someone responded today.

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Right now it's still things like Grid Perplexors and Logic Safari. Both girls love logic puzzles.

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You might take a look through this book: http://www.amazon.co...ntures in logic

It's a free e-book, and it introduces some of the common fallacies over the course of a silly story.

Thanks for posting this. Have you used it, with what age?

TIA

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This one didn't start out as a Logic thread but about 3/4 of the way through people discussed some of their favorite Logic related materials and activities.

http://forums.welltr...-college-early/

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Lots of good ideas.

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Logic is getting chopped from our schedule next year. My kids have done some of the Prufrock Press books like the series that includes Orbiting with Logic. My son did half of Building Thinking Skills from CTC and we started Fallacy Detective this year, but I began to feel it was a big waste of time. Honestly, the terminology in Fallacy Detective was so different from what I found in another logic book for middle schoolers, I really started wondering what the point was. The other thing I have found with my own kids is that one of them is great at logic and really doesn't need the practice found in these workbooks, while the other one struggles with it and the practice doesn't help him a bit! :huh: I'm going to wait a few more years and have my strong logic student take Memoria Press's Traditional Logic but I'm not sure what I'll do with my struggler. I may have him take the class as well and see if he gets anything out of it at that level.

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I absolutely hated the mp logic books. So did my older kids. Mind numbingly boring and didn't stick at all. Completely waste of money imnsho

I would agree that they are a bit dry (to put it mildly), however they do cover the material that need to be covered, that is formal logic, as opposed to critical thinking skills, fallacies, etc.

A little surprised that it didn't "stick" as there are plenty of exercises, and indeed that is where the value of the books reside in my view. Only other books out there that actually covers Formal Logic that I have seen are mentioned above in this thread.

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This is a great thread. I am preparing next year and got plenty ideas for logic. I want to ask those of you using workbook, is your child working independently? Do you schedule the unit/exercises and your child execute? My child is 3rd grader so I am going to look into puzzles and sorts.

Thanks for sharing all the wonderful ideas.

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We have done informal logic the whole way through. I think with littles informal logic is good. Everything I have read says to wait until 7th grade for a formal logic course.

Informal logic can look different in different houses. Although we have no formal logic course, I am constantly telling ds to think about xyz logically. Instead of answering his problem, I talk to him about the questions he should ask to figure out the answer. We do logic puzzles as well. This summer we are going to work through logic lift off, and then next year we are going to try Art of the Argument. For 7th I am pretty sure we will do MP's Traditional logic. I am looking for a co-op class for that, and if not I think we might try the Online class.

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My older 3 have used MindBenders but I got it on CD. This way the kids can do it on their own and get instant feedback if they are wrong without getting the answers. Also they get a short game to play when they do get it right. Plus I bought it once and used it with 3 kids and will use it for the next 2 also!

My next is only going into 3rd so she can wait but I hope to use Reading Detective Beginners with her.

They have also used Fallacy Detective and Teaching Toolbox. These were fun. We did them together on the couch. We tended to refer back to these when discussing the news or watching a political debate.

I also have Introductory Logic but will wait to use it with my 3rd dc till he is in 9th and doing Classical Writing - Herodotus because it schedules it in and then has a chapter that utilizes the logic learned in the writing lessons. CW will also take us through a good amount of rhetoric.

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We used both Nance's books and Traditional Logic over the years. I liked Memoria Press' TL for its very systematic exercises and thorough coverage. But both of these felt incomplete somehow. I think that it was because there wasn't enough background and discussion.

Then I discovered Peter Kreeft's Socratic Logic. My friend Tina recommended it a few years back and OH! I wouldn't do logic without it, at least as the teacher's book. It is a 'college textbook' covering the same subject of TL I and II does--but this book is so well written that it is hard to call it a text! It is *so* engaging that my son at 16 wanted to read it for fun, yet its not a cute fun-like book, if you know what I mean. And his discussion of the 2 logics and where they came from, and how they differ, is worth the cost of the whole book to me. There is a key for half the exercises in the back (don't know where you can find a key for the rest).

Just read the reviews at Amazon to see what I mean. It along with the TL workbooks from Memoria would be the perfect curriculum.

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