Great Article: Envy and Giftedness

[Heathermomster]

Gifted becomes an issue for me when I talk with other moms, whose children are either ADHD, dyslexics, maths disabled, and/or have writing disorders. In my LD support group, none of the mothers use the materials we use. Except for grammar and math, we work at grade level or above. I get odd looks, gasps, and have to explain that DS is weak in some areas and advanced in others. I also point out that having a high IQ doesn't really matter when you struggle to tie your shoes. DS has a reading, writing, and maths disorder.

[JumpyTheFrog]

What about the fact that many kids in gifted programs are multi-lingual and English might not be their best language, or their answers might not be conventional because their experience is different? Every test I've ever seen for young kids has had questions that are unintentionally biased toward kids having a certain childhood experience that not all kids have.

 

 

I'm not that familiar with IQ testing. The supposed sample IQ questions I've seen that I remember were non-verbal problems like "Which pattern comes next." That wouldn't be biased against other cultures. If many IQ tests have verbal questions that assume certain knowledge, then I can see how that would be biased against non-native speakers or students from unenriching backgrounds.

 

 

Another point - what if it was not cost effective to have a whole school for kids only in the 99th percentile? And what about the value of spending time with more typical peers? Just because it's easier for a gifted person to spend time with only gifted kids doesn't mean that's always the best thing for them. ... I guess ultimately, no solution is going to please everyone. Considering that my gifted kid has received zero differentiated instruction thus far, I would think being able to attend a school that at least values differentiation would be better than nothing.

 

 

I was discussing three different schools in my posts. I guess I wasn't clear enough about that in my post. The program with the 110 IQ (as one of many ways to qualify) was just a program (whatever it involved), not a separate school. The gifted magnet schools in my district are the ones with only 80% of the students passing state tests. Not only 80% doing well on them - 20% can't even pass the tests. That's why I question the standards of these schools. Unless these tests are way, way too hard, I would think 80-90% of ALL students should be able to pass them, with nearly all gifted students passing them.

 

Now these magnet schools are technically a school-within-a school. Which means they bus in the gifted kids to the inner city school for diversity. There is a chance the passing rate I'm remembering is for all students in the building and not the gifted school. Personally, I hope that's the case. I'll go look it up and come back with the results.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Hearing about all the different standards for testing for G&T classes and such has been very interesting for me. I was in elementary school in the 90's in California. Everyone in my 3rd grade class took a test and only another kid (an Asian kid, since the differences in family achievement expectations for different cultures was mentioned earlier) and I were selected to take a secondary test. I have no idea what that test was, but it was the first time anyone asked me if the picture of the glass of water was "half full or half empty" and if the picture of the sun was a "sunrise" or a "sunset" and I thought they were nuts for asking such a silly question with no other information to base an answer on. As far as I am aware, the GATE program was just a few extra curricular activity classes that were done in the stupid early hours of the morning. I remember a three person Native American class where we learned about the local natives, played a game with walnut shells and carved canoes out of soap and a class with a bunch of older kids where we put together rocket kits and then launched them. If there was more to it than that, my Granny never signed me up or told me about it.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Okay, my district has six gifted elementary schools, which is four more than I knew about. It looks like my school-within-a-school was for other magnet program, not the gifted ones.

 

I looked up the end-of-grade test scores. The district website said these measure the percent of students at or above grade level. The schools ranged from the 60s to the low 80s. I think I have a better idea of why. Their websites said that there are no qualifications. Parents apply like for any other magnet program, and then (I'm pretty sure) are selected by some combo of lottery and bussing for diversity reasons. In other words, while the average student at these schools is probably more academically inclined than the district average (or at least their parents value education), they can be below average and still attend.

 

That would also explain why these schools touted their gifted pullout programs (which meet for 45 minutes per week per subject). Students need to actually qualify to be in the pullout programs.

[nitascool]

I wrote a long diatribe about IQ scores, Giftedness, etc. but decided that well it just sounded like bragging and I remembered even though this is the accelerated board if you "brag" about your kid here then you're looked at in a bad light by the very people who should understand the need for a mom to talk about the great things her kid does. Sheesh what a disapointment.

[Mergath]

Well, where I live there are a lot of suburbs near the "big city" and each one has its own flavor. The high-level professionals flock to certain suburbs to raise their kids. It should surprise nobody that the schools in those suburbs have more gifted kids because, one, IQ is inherited, and two, smart and educated parents are going to make sure their kids' intellectual abilities are nurtured and expressed when appropriate. I am really surprised to see some of the above comments here of all places. It reads like some of you want your kids to be the only "truly gifted" ones. Other people are full of it, but you aren't. How is that any better than what the OP's article talks about? ... As for smart kids "proudly" saying they are dumb, that could be them wanting to be reassured that they aren't, as well as being convinced that they will be better accepted if they are very humble. (And of course, being humble is a great thing, but some of that borders on manipulative.)

 

It's like grade inflation. Statistically, only a few students should really get straight As, and when grades are an accurate reflection of a child's effort and knowledge, they're a useful tool for providing more individualized instruction. But now everyone gets As, because no one wants their kid to be the only one who doesn't have a 4.0 gpa. So the grades have ceased to be a useful tool. Now an A is no more than a gold star for completion.

 

Gifted labels are the same type of thing. If everyone has one because they think it's a nice thing to have, it's no longer a useful tool for educators. The problem happens with special needs labels, as well. There are many cases now of parents going out and basically paying for a label for their child so that kid can have the "perks" that go with it: more time for tests, alternative testing methods, etc.

 

Obviously, the best thing to do would be to abolish the labels completely and give each child an individualized education based on his or her unique strengths and weaknesses, but we all know that's impossible for a public school with thirty or forty kids in a classroom. Thus the labels.

[Mergath]

I wrote a long diatribe about IQ scores, Giftedness, etc. but decided that well it just sounded like bragging and I remembered even though this is the accelerated board if you "brag" about your kid here then you're looked at in a bad light by the very people who should understand the need for a mom to talk about the great things her kid does. Sheesh what a disapointment.

 

No one's going to look at you "in a bad light" if you're excited to share a child's achievement or something. But bragging simply for the sake of bragging is in bad taste no matter where you are.

[AndyJoy]

I agree with you that gifted is often equated with high academic performance. Gifted is so much more complex than academics. If my PG son was in the school system, I can say with almost 100% accuracy he would not have been picked out as someone to get tested. He would be the class clown, never getting his work done, losing his homework, walking around the room kid that would always get in trouble and have to miss his recess. I wonder how many of those kids are not referred for testing because the focus is on academic achievement.

 

A lot, I would guess! My 5th grade teacher admitted at the end of the year that he knew I qualified for the gifted program, but he didn't recommend me because--get this--the two boys who were in his class and the gifted pull-out program were underachieving, authority-questioning "troublemakers" and he didn't want me to end up like them! When my 6th grade teacher recommended me (and I was tested), I was accepted and LOVED it. I was LIVID with my 5th grade teacher when I found out about his attitude! His version of differentiation for the gifted/accelerated kids was to 1) let us sit in our own section in the back of the room and tune out his teaching, 2) let us out of class for other activities--reading with 1st graders, cafeteria duty, spelling with 3rd graders, etc., 3) basically ignore us and letus do our own thing, as long as we were quiet and not distracting others. I have to admit it was nice from the standpoint that I did a lot less busy-work that year and had more time to read voraciously on topics that interested me!

[AndyJoy]

One thing you need to realize is that non2E gifted kids who aren't prepped for the 'test', or who do not come from the culture that the questions are taken from, may not appear as 'gifted'. One of my sons was not grouped with the other readers in kindy because his 'test' showed he wasn't as smart. Yeah...the one question he missed was one on which a body part was pointed to, and he was asked to name it. he said tibia when the desired answer was shin. Not being a peewee soccer player, or having been prepped by an 'in the know' parent, he ended up being the only fluent reader in the class, but it took several written letters to get a test done to have him placed in the appropriate instructional group because of the inappropriate conclusions from the 'test'. I would prefer academic grouping to be done by instructional need, not be selecting for culture, who the daddy is, or how good mommy is at gaming 'the test'.

 

Somewhere I have the teacher-completed application form for the gifted pull-out program my school did. I think it had 5 or so criteria for admission, and 2-3? had to be met. I know teacher recommendation, IQ of 130, standardized test score of 98th percentile, "needs not being met in the regular classroom" were some of the options. Judging from the kids in my pull-out class, there was at least one boy who I doubt tested well, but someone figured out he was gifted. I fell short of the IQ score because of my perfectionism, which is at least partially attributable to my giftedness! I knew the stakes when I went into it was was very nervous. I got flustered when I was stuck on something "stupid" and had a meltdown, complete with sobbing. The tester ended up skipping some parts because he didn't think I could handle more. (He told my mom later that he thought I was likely to attempt suicide in HS because I was so stressed about my performance!) He reported my "actual" score and then his higher estimate of what it would have been if I hadn't been so emotional. I met enough other criteria that I was still accepted. My school seemed to have a good grasp of how a variety of different personalities would display giftedness, though the one-day-a-week pull-out program was insufficient to truly meet our needs, of course.

[nitascool]

 

No one's going to look at you "in a bad light" if you're excited to share a child's achievement or something. But bragging simply for the sake of bragging is in bad taste no matter where you are.

 

 

Having been on these boards a long time (10 years now, I think), I have in the past made statements that were taken as bragging in which I wasn't bragging. But even if I was bragging I don't really see the negitive vibe that others give out about bragging in the same way you do. I see this as a place where parents should be able to ask for advice on how to deal with their gifted child and not be accused or brow beat just because they are not good at phrasing their questions or comment in a humble enough manner. I've always found support from some on here and good advice too, but I have found judgment and misunderstanding as well

 

It's a shame really because moms of gifted kids should have a place to come. Even simply for the sake of bragging, because as a mother its our right to be proud of our child. And in this world I live in you're only allowed to shine if you can dunk a basket or throw a killer football.

 

Of course no one likes someone who always brags... but I figure this is often the only place some parents have in which they can brag.

[nitascool]

It's like grade inflation. Statistically, only a few students should really get straight As, and when grades are an accurate reflection of a child's effort and knowledge, they're a useful tool for providing more individualized instruction. But now everyone gets As, because no one wants their kid to be the only one who doesn't have a 4.0 gpa. So the grades have ceased to be a useful tool. Now an A is no more than a gold star for completion.

 

Gifted labels are the same type of thing. If everyone has one because they think it's a nice thing to have, it's no longer a useful tool for educators. The problem happens with special needs labels, as well. There are many cases now of parents going out and basically paying for a label for their child so that kid can have the "perks" that go with it: more time for tests, alternative testing methods, etc.

 

Obviously, the best thing to do would be to abolish the labels completely and give each child an individualized education based on his or her unique strengths and weaknesses, but we all know that's impossible for a public school with thirty or forty kids in a classroom. Thus the labels.

 

 

WOW this is so wrong.

 

As a adult having had special needs in school and as parent of a special needs child I can assure you that you are way off base, at least in the states of California, Louisiana, Arkansas, Ohio, Missouri and Kansas (all the states I've lived in and dealt with SN and PS). Maybe Michigan is some sort of freak state or something. There are no PERKS with special needs children. They actually have those needs. These accommodations you call perks don't even level the playing field for these kids. They work not twice as hard but often 10 times as hard as the average child.

 

Also it is very hard to get a special need label in these states, much more so then a gifted label. ADHD label is fairly easy but little to no accommodation is given here for it... instead the kids are forced to take meds that could kill them even against parental objection. If your kid gets an ADHD label in Ohio and you PS them you give up your right to not medicate.

 

It took one afternoon to get a gifted label for my oldest son. It took six years for us to finally get an accurate diagnoses for my second son who was first labeled ADHD then SPD then Developmental Delayed, then PDD-NOS and finally Aspergers and now Convergence Insufficiency.

 

Doctors do not hand out those labels like candy as you presume. If my son were in PS he would get no accommodations because he isn't actually below the 5th % in anything other then penmanship. In our school district he would be expected to keep up writing wise and would be given bad marks for misspelled words when the letters are written backward or out of order. He would be expected to deal with the loud noises in the classroom even though he has super sensitive hearing (we were told he could not use sound muffling headsets because it would distract other children). We live a quarter of a mile from the local PS and he can hear the school bells ring throughout the day.

 

As far as getting accommodations in public school in my area most of the parents of children with IEP's have to fight tooth and nail for every single accommodation and then have to daily check up to make sure the teachers are actually doing those accommodations. Not something most parents of an average kid are likely to do just so they can have more time on a test.

 

I think that it is more likely that there are more special needs kids... since our world and food supply are so polluted and our children are bombarded at birth with heavy metal poisoning. If you want to find a cause for the increases in labeling you might look in those areas rather then conniving parents. I'm sure there are a few, but when you use such a broad brush you negate the truly special needs children, and give the bureaucracy yet another bit of ammo to stop the needed "perks", as you call them, these kids need just to survive public schools.

 

This coming from a child who was labeled gifted/learning disabled at age six and barely survived the public schools with accommodations in 7th grade only. If it weren't for my eidetic memory I would have never survived my public school education, much less, been able to teach myself how to read, write and do sums as an adult once I was finally diagnosed with dyslexia.

[ThoughtfulMama]

Back to the original article, I found it to be very interesting and true. I am always quick to point out DS's playground deficiencies when another parent notices him reading something "inappropriate" like signs or restaurant menues. I really need to stop doing that and come up with a standard response. Sometimes I say, "Thank you. Reading is his "thing" right now" and try to leave it at that. I haven't had any negative responses, but most people say that it is obvious that I work with him a lot or ask how I managed to teach him so young.

 

So, yes, I "work" with him constantly. The kid is a hungry sponge and full of questions. I speak to him like an adult and give complete answers to his questions whenever possible. But 99% of it is initiated by him, and we just call that living an intersted life. So, yes, my child is the one who explains to his preschool teachers how antibodies tag a virus for white blood cells to eat. And he could read much of the high school text that I showed him about it. But he can also whip up a mean imaginary salmon and lemon sauce dinner and conquer bad guys left and right.

[Mergath]

 

Having been on these boards a long time (10 years now, I think), I have in the past made statements that were taken as bragging in which I wasn't bragging. But even if I was bragging I don't really see the negitive vibe that others give out about bragging in the same way you do. I see this as a place where parents should be able to ask for advice on how to deal with their gifted child and not be accused or brow beat just because they are not good at phrasing their questions or comment in a humble enough manner. I've always found support from some on here and good advice too, but I have found judgment and misunderstanding as well

 

It's a shame really because moms of gifted kids should have a place to come. Even simply for the sake of bragging, because as a mother its our right to be proud of our child. And in this world I live in you're only allowed to shine if you can dunk a basket or throw a killer football.

 

Of course no one likes someone who always brags... but I figure this is often the only place some parents have in which they can brag.

 

 

How is asking for advice at all the same thing as bragging? And I'm pretty sure no one has been "brow beat just because they are not good at phrasing their questions or comment in a humble enough manner." :001_huh: Maybe if your question is something like, "How do I explain to everyone that my kid is so much better than theirs without making them mad?" then you might get a few odd looks. But people ask questions and get advice all the time around here with no problems. You seem to have some issues that have nothing to do with the forum here.

[Mergath]

 

WOW this is so wrong.

 

As a adult having had special needs in school and as parent of a special needs child I can assure you that you are way off base, at least in the states of California, Louisiana, Arkansas, Ohio, Missouri and Kansas (all the states I've lived in and dealt with SN and PS). Maybe Michigan is some sort of freak state or something. There are no PERKS with special needs children. They actually have those needs. These accommodations you call perks don't even level the playing field for these kids. They work not twice as hard but often 10 times as hard as the average child.

 

Also it is very hard to get a special need label in these states, much more so then a gifted label. ADHD label is fairly easy but little to no accommodation is given here for it... instead the kids are forced to take meds that could kill them even against parental objection. If your kid gets an ADHD label in Ohio and you PS them you give up your right to not medicate.

 

It took one afternoon to get a gifted label for my oldest son. It took six years for us to finally get an accurate diagnoses for my second son who was first labeled ADHD then SPD then Developmental Delayed, then PDD-NOS and finally Aspergers and now Convergence Insufficiency.

 

Doctors do not hand out those labels like candy as you presume. If my son were in PS he would get no accommodations because he isn't actually below the 5th % in anything other then penmanship. In our school district he would be expected to keep up writing wise and would be given bad marks for misspelled words when the letters are written backward or out of order. He would be expected to deal with the loud noises in the classroom even though he has super sensitive hearing (we were told he could not use sound muffling headsets because it would distract other children). We live a quarter of a mile from the local PS and he can hear the school bells ring throughout the day.

 

As far as getting accommodations in public school in my area most of the parents of children with IEP's have to fight tooth and nail for every single accommodation and then have to daily check up to make sure the teachers are actually doing those accommodations. Not something most parents of an average kid are likely to do just so they can have more time on a test.

 

I think that it is more likely that there are more special needs kids... since our world and food supply are so polluted and our children are bombarded at birth with heavy metal poisoning. If you want to find a cause for the increases in labeling you might look in those areas rather then conniving parents. I'm sure there are a few, but when you use such a broad brush you negate the truly special needs children, and give the bureaucracy yet another bit of ammo to stop the needed "perks", as you call them, these kids need just to survive public schools.

 

This coming from a child who was labeled gifted/learning disabled at age six and barely survived the public schools with accommodations in 7th grade only. If it weren't for my eidetic memory I would have never survived my public school education, much less, been able to teach myself how to read, write and do sums as an adult once I was finally diagnosed with dyslexia.

 

 

Did you actually read what I wrote? Because that would probably help. I'm not talking about kids who actually have special needs. I'm talking about kids who don't have a legitimate diagnosis, but whose parents find a doctor who will diagnose them as having ADHD or something so they can gain an edge with standardized tests and stuff. And yes, that happens quite a lot. Here's just one article discussing it:

 

http://www.takepart.com/article/2012/02/14/fake-it-till-you-make-it-why-teens-pretend-have-adhd

 

Also, you might want to recheck your eidetic memory, because I'm from Minnesota, not Michigan.

[SKL]

If we went only by test scores, my gifted dd would have gotten the first seat in the gifted program last year, and thrown out on her ear this year. Obviously there's more to a gifted evaluation, and while we all seem to acknowledge that for our own kids, somehow we resent it when others apply the same logic to theirs. ... That said, where I live, I've never seen all this "my kid is gifted" stuff - it is very rarely said at all, and when it is, there's no reason for me to doubt. Imagine, some people's kids are even smarter than me and mine, LOL. Seems to me there is room for all of us.

[MinivanMom]

FWIW, I've never heard anyone IRL state or hint that their child is gifted. Is that weird? Maybe it is because I never did those mommy groups.

 

I think this is a very local thing. When I lived in a working class area in a southern state, I never once heard anyone state or hint that their child was gifted. Now I live in a highly educated, upper-middle class area on the east coast. People brag about their child being gifted all.the.time. Sometimes it's framed as a complaint, "Poor Suzy isn't being challenged," or "Little Johnny is just so intelligent and quirky that he's struggling to make friends," but most of the time it's a straight-up brag. I do get tired of hearing about all that their little angel is achieving, but I always wonder if maybe there is no grandparent in the picture to share things with and I try to be kind and patient. Sometimes, though, it just feels aggressive and competitive especially if I don't know the person well. I'm happy to hear about the accomplishments of my friends' kids, but it's weird coming from someone I don't know as well.

 

I think the issue I'm having is that I do feel like it's affecting my children. The parents talk about it, so the children talk about it. The local elementary screens in 3rd, so dd9's friends just went through the labeling this past year. Everyone knows who is now gifted and who isn't and it is a very big deal to the kids A few months ago dd9 came home from a party pretty worked up over the issue. Someone had labeled her as "Not Gifted", because she is homeschooled and by default isn't a part of the "Gifted" group at the local school. Dd wanted to know whether she would be in the "Gifted" group if she went to public school, because she was feeling labeled and excluded. I normally do not discuss test scores with my children, but I went ahead and told her that, yes, based on her test scores she would be in the "Gifted" group if she went to public school. Then we discussed the fact that it's hard to teach 30 kids at different levels, so that's why they made up the "gifted" and "special education" labels . . . they just wanted to help children who were further away from the class average to get instruction that matched their ability . . . aren't we so lucky that we homeschool, so that we can just individualize your instruction so it's always at exactly the right level for you . . . these test scores aren't set in stone; they change over time depending on how you develop and how much you learn . . . etc, etc. By the time I got to the familiar "your brain is a muscle" lecture, dd's eyes glazed over and she was done with the conversation. All she really wanted was reassurance that she isn't dumb and she isn't an outsider, because the "Not Gifted" girls were being made to feel that way by the "Gifted" girls . . . an attitude I can't help but suspect came from the way their moms talk. Ugh!

 

I don't have an answer to these issues. I'm glad we don't have to deal with the public school right now, but we haven't fully escaped the issues. I want us to reach and individualize instruction for as many children as need it, but I don't want it to be so overreaching that "Not Gifted" becomes the new negative label. I want parents to feel like they can share and celebrate their child's accomplishments, but I don't want to always be the person stuck listening to them drone on and on. My dd qualifies for Duke TIP, but sometimes when I see those "DUKE TIP" magnets on the back of cars, I kind-of want to ram them. How's that for conflicted feelings?

[MinivanMom]

I wrote a long diatribe about IQ scores, Giftedness, etc. but decided that well it just sounded like bragging and I remembered even though this is the accelerated board if you "brag" about your kid here then you're looked at in a bad light by the very people who should understand the need for a mom to talk about the great things her kid does. Sheesh what a disapointment.

I'm so sorry you're feeling that way. I don't think anyone has been referring to this board as a place where "bragging" happens. I think of it as a place where you can share and celebrate your child's accomplishments and challenges openly, kind of like the way you would share with loving grandparents. I would like this board to be a safe, supportive place, but I don't think that precludes us from discussing larger issues related to giftedness.

[TracyP]

 

Having been on these boards a long time (10 years now, I think), I have in the past made statements that were taken as bragging in which I wasn't bragging. But even if I was bragging I don't really see the negitive vibe that others give out about bragging in the same way you do. I see this as a place where parents should be able to ask for advice on how to deal with their gifted child and not be accused or brow beat just because they are not good at phrasing their questions or comment in a humble enough manner. I've always found support from some on here and good advice too, but I have found judgment and misunderstanding as well

I am one that had this happen. It was the first thread I started over here and I was very nervous because I wasn't sure if I would fit in over here. Looking back, my post now embarrasses me. I did phrase it all wrong. A couple people jumped on me with snarky comments, but thankfully a few more joined in with understanding. I have also seen this happen to at least one other person. So, yeah, it happens.

[Arcadia]

All she really wanted was reassurance that she isn't dumb and she isn't an outsider, because the "Not Gifted" girls were being made to feel that way by the "Gifted" girls . . . an attitude I can't help but suspect came from the way their moms talk. Ugh!

 

Unfortunately that might be a herd mentality thing rather than a mom/dad thing. I had seen that happen in my neighborhood schools of girls forming cliques at 1st grade and even at Kindergarten, and that has nothing to do with the "mummy groups". It definately has nothing to do with "gifted" since there is no GATE program.

[nitascool]

Did you actually read what I wrote? Because that would probably help. I'm not talking about kids who actually have special needs. I'm talking about kids who don't have a legitimate diagnosis, but whose parents find a doctor who will diagnose them as having ADHD or something so they can gain an edge with standardized tests and stuff. And yes, that happens quite a lot. Here's just one article discussing it:

 

http://www.takepart....etend-have-adhd

 

Also, you might want to recheck your eidetic memory, because I'm from Minnesota, not Michigan.

 

LOL I am long past my eidetic memory days. It was always more keyed to what I heard then what I saw anyway, as reading is a foreign language to me. I have dyslexia. I think my four kids sucked most of my brain cells dry long ago. I am surely not trying to cause a fight with you. Really shouldn't post at 3 in the morning. Again that little bit about not phrasing things right.

 

I did actually read what you wrote. I was mostly referring to the fact that you seemed to assume it's happening every where and that so many are doing it. I am sure this happens, I'm not doubting that you have experienced this. Maybe a big city issues sense more rural areas around here don't really do anything or very little for ADHD kids, besides overmedicating them (if that is the dx you are referring). Maybe in Minnesota you get a lot of ADHD labels or some sort of learning disability label you are using for "special needs". It's extremely hard to fake CP or Autism, for instance. I guess there are unscrupulous doctors out there who would give a false dx. I hate to think they are the norm though.

 

"You seem to have some issues that have nothing to do with the forum here."

 

I have no current issues with this forum..as my littles aren't so little anymore...and wanting to share their cute little amazing things isn't well quite as cute, I guess. And everyone in the world has some sort of issue not related to this forum that's kind of a no brainer. I'm sure you were referring to "bragging" issues though. I guess that would depend on if you mean IRL or on a forum. In real life the only person I brag to about my children is my dh. We don't have supportive family when it comes to homeschooling. Our extended family believe that school is only for soialization and that accademics is a waist of time and just causes kids to be "eggheads" and "art quiers", their words. So no I don't and never have bragged about my children's accademic or artistic abilities to family. To friends, well most of my friends have children with special needs and talking about the giftedness of my kids would be like rubbing salt in a wound. So we talk about our struggles dealling with their special needs instead.

 

With this thread... I actually mostly agree with the article posted. I think it's a bit more complex an issue then the author has stated, but a good read nonetheless. If you read back, quite a few comments were made about not liking bragging.Which is rediculous considering that the majority of the people on this forum would never be IRL braggers and that everyone needs to have a place to talk about how proud they are of their child's real accomplishments. I think we as parents of gt kids are so often afraid of offending others and being called a baggart that it becomes a defence if we hear others finally talking about their great kids.

 

I don't come on here bragging about my 13 yo. I could, he is an amazing young man, as are all my children. He is my only "official" gt child with scores to prove it and apparently for some that matters. I could have used a place back when he was doing early ed. to brag... but this wasn't that place then. And unfortunately still isn't. It should be though, as all moms need a place to talk about their great kids. And others with great kids should be able to diferentiate between a proud mom who has no other outlet and a person trying to pump up their own ego. Moms of typically abled kids already have a place to brag about their great kids... its called real life, but we moms of precocious children aren't allowed because we're bragging.

 

So yeah, maybe I do have an issue it's just not the one you think I have.

[MinivanMom]

Unfortunately that might be a herd mentality thing rather than a mom/dad thing. I had seen that happen in my neighborhood schools of girls forming cliques at 1st grade and even at Kindergarten, and that has nothing to do with the "mummy groups". It definately has nothing to do with "gifted" since there is no GATE program.

Oh, well of course there will be cliques no matter what, especially in that 4th-6th grade range. I was just a little surprised that the girls were openly discussing who did and did not qualify for gifted and then using the label as a way to separate and put-down. That was a new one for me. In our situation, unfortunately, it does probably come from the mothers. The mothers discuss it amongst themselves, and I'd hate to think they say half those things at home in front of their daughters. Mostly I just feel frustrated with the competitiveness that the gifted label seems to engender locally. We have pull-out at the local school and 1/3 of the kids are getting pulled out. That can't help but create a significant us vs. them mentality.

[SKL]

We have pull-out at the local school and 1/3 of the kids are getting pulled out. That can't help but create a significant us vs. them mentality.

But you think that if it were more like 1/5 or 1/10 or 1/30, that would prevent an "us vs. them" mentality, and it would be fair to the rest of the 1/3 who benefit from pull-out regardless of whether they meet some people's gifted standard? What's so bad about 1/3 getting pulled out? Is it better that most of them have no differentiation? ... If it was 5/6 getting pulled out or labeled "gifted," I could sympathize with you. ... Re your earlier post, your daughter came home upset that she might not be gifted. What would you say if her IQ were 100 or 95? In my family, we had a broad spectrum - some gifted, some not - and the ones who were not certainly wished that they were. But at that point it's up to the parents to teach their kids that all of us have valuable strengths. For all you know, the parents of those gifted girls are trying to teach them to be humble. But we have no control over what our girls do when they're in a group and we aren't there. They do and say all kinds of ridiculous things, whether they are gifted or not. One day my daughter Miss A was ready to "divorce" her sister because she was going to wear a Rapunzel costume which was the same as their friend's, while Miss A would have to be different. That's how girls are. ... My girls have very different abilities and it's an ongoing responsibility to make each remember that diversity in talent is a good thing. They do have a gifted program in school, and the screening will be done in the upcoming year. One daughter is gifted, and if they evaluate her properly, she'll be in the program. The other daughter is not academically gifted; she works her butt off to get Merit Roll. They will have to deal with this "labeling" thing, and I am sure it will not be easy for either daughter. Bottom line, we are all different and sometimes that means we all have to suck it up, and wait for another opportunity to shine. Shielding kids from this reality benefits nobody IMO. ... Like others have said, a sizeable gifted group is no different from a sports team etc. that includes more than a few kids. There will always be some "elite" group that others can choose to envy. As we raise our kids we decide whether to encourage envy, disdain, or pride in those members of our community. And also to model mature reactions to others' feelings toward us.

[JumpyTheFrog]

If we went only by test scores, my gifted dd would have gotten the first seat in the gifted program last year, and thrown out on her ear this year. Obviously there's more to a gifted evaluation, and while we all seem to acknowledge that for our own kids, somehow we resent it when others apply the same logic to theirs.

 

I don't see where anyone in this thread has said they want gifted programs to be based only on scores or that they resent students who get in other ways. What some of us are concerned about is that in some districts the criteria are so broad and/or vague (or non-existant for the magnet schools in my district), that the gifted programs become "watered down" because they are filled up with average students.

 

I agree that many students who test at 110 might actually be gifted but just tested poorly for any number of reasons. However, if every student in a school is tested, then generally most students who test at 110 will not actually be gifted. While some sort of pull-out program may give them better education, it can't meet their needs and the needs of the gifted equally well.

 

I think if you asked, most of us here would be in favor of schools having many levels for each subject. Schools don't seem to be having good results from "one size fits all" classes and having two levels is probably not much of an improvement. Maybe if schools had say, five tracks for each subject (with students placed according to how well they do in that subject), then parents and/or teachers wouldn't be as likely to have slightly above average kids placed in a program that is supposed to meet different needs.

 

In case any of this still comes across at elitist somehow, I ask how many parents think that placing students with severe cognitive disabilities in with average kids is a good idea. Most parents would state that either the classes would be too difficult for these students and not meet their needs or that the class would be slowed down so much that average kids feel like watching paint dry would be a better use of their time.

 

Unfortunately, the entire system is set up for mass education which doesn't meet the needs of students at either end of the spectrum. I really wish schools could find an affordable way to better meet the needs of their students and go at the pace each student needs.

[JumpyTheFrog]

But you think that if it were more like 1/5 or 1/10 or 1/30, that would prevent an "us vs. them" mentality,

 

I agree with SKL about this. People create "us vs. them" mentalities about everything. We've all seen it in real life and on the WTM forum about any number of topics, from diet, to clothing style, to cupcakes, to shopping carts.

[Arcadia]

They do have a gifted program in school, and the screening will be done in the upcoming year. One daughter is gifted, and if they evaluate her properly, she'll be in the program. The other daughter is not academically gifted; she works her butt off to get Merit Roll.

 

Saw this gifted education program information by a school district and thought about your question on screening by schools. It is on page 8 of the link. They use NNAT2 for screening.

[SKL]

I agree that inclusion is generally a good thing, provided the kids who need extra help have an aide. I agree that disruption could be a problem in some cases, but gifted kids and typical kids disrupt too. Heigh Ho, I hear you about the kids whose sensory issues make it hard to succeed in a classroom. I've been thinking about this lately in light of my kids' experience. Maybe the old standard of a quiet, orderly classroom isn't so dumb after all. (Sorry for going off on a tangent.) ... I dunno, it just seems wrong to say "I don't want a bunch of 'common' children in my kids' class/program, because that reduces the amount of quality time my special snowflake gets." (And it might even pollute us!) As has been said, ideally all kids are met where they are (not just the top 1%), but given that's not going to ever happen, a little give and take is appropriate. I'm not sure where people got the idea that being born smart entitles kids to more than everyone else. Most gifted kids who are not 2E can keep themselves intellectually busy without any special help - the way we all used to in my generation. Which brings up another question - what if your kid is 2E - should he be excluded from the gifted class on the basis that he might disrupt the perfect ones?

[SKL]

Referring to the blue quote: The definition of 'more' has come to mean 'more' acheivement. That's viewed as unfair, according to what people are saying here. They want the teachers to be pouring the time into remedial, and ignoring those who do need instruction above grade level. That results in a lot of high students who have no classes to take, as their parents aren't poor enough for a fee waiver from the CC, and they aren't rich enough to pay for most of what used to be jr and sr college prep classes (math above Alg2, FL4+, any dual enrollment class, AP fees) and they certainly can't afford a vehicle plus insurance to put the kid into half day work release at minimum wage. We have a significant number of students that spend sr year with English, SS, PE, and 5 periods of study hall, which is considered 'fair' because the remedial children use those study halls for tutoring and it results in ncga. In the elementary, it results in students who have a lot of free time, since they are working well below their instructional level. Contrast that to back in the Jurassic; I had grouping by instructional need in both LA and math in elementary... everyone worked each and every day, with little time to read or disrupt. Yes, the lessons were longer for the remedial groups, as they needed to be, but a year's worth of progress was made. We now have Diana Moon Glampers in charge, which means private school or home school for those who want to work at their instructional level and don't live in a district that allows it. Otherwise, its thumb twiddle and leave as soon as you have the credits for the basic Regent's Diploma ...they'd like to eliminate the Advanced Regent's Diploma option.

 

I agree with your point about the disruptors, however the point I'm making is that a special needs included classroom is very noisy. These aren't all disruptors, these are a. the behaviors that are part of the diagnoses as well as noise from the medical equipment and b. the adult aides and sped teachers talking while the main teachers is instructing c. student tantrums/noise of responders and d. transition as people go to pullout. Also remember that many have IEPs that have preferential seating; that translates into a nonclassifed child being seated at the rear of the classroom, where they can't see the teacher or the board because of all the adult aides in the way. A child from a nonchaotic home may find such a classroom so noisy that they can't think.

It isn't perfect, but my point is that barring anyone below genius IQ from challenging classes only makes the overall situation worse. If a kid wants to try something challenging then let him - you never know what might happen. In school, Einstein was a disgrace and Elvis' music teacher said he couldn't sing. ... As for the disruption of kids with IEPs, I have a hard time believing that this cannot be managed so it isn't much different from normal everyday kid chaos (acknowledging that there would be a few extreme exceptions). I'm sure there is a learning curve, as with any change. But there are also benefits to typical students that weigh against the costs of inclusion. ... I do think a quieter classroom would be nice, but I don't think anyone is seriously trying for that nowadays, at least in the younger grades. ... As for the great tragedy of smart kids not being challenged, I think the situation is not ideal BUT the problem tends to be overstated here. A smart child who can read and behave in school should be able to work something out with most teachers so he can do some independent learning in school. Of course it's not going to happen for the whole 7 hours; no kid in school is learning academics the majority of the time. But how much is enough? When I was a kid, I was accelerated one year, and attended a parochial school which had class-contained reading groups but no other differentiation. (My parents were poor, but they figured out a way to send 4 kids to Lutheran schools for 8 years.) I utilized the public library of my own accord, read and wrote at home, taught myself to play music, and mostly just played like every other kid. It wasn't utopia but it was all right. Perfect is in Heaven. ... Now you might say that for the few astronomically gifted kids, this falls way short. But most school districts just don't have the numbers to design a program that addresses the needs of extreme outliers. To do that we'd have to isolate the kids in separate silos, which most people don't believe is the best thing for most kids. .... I also think we might have a difference of opinion as to the value of kids being grouped with diverse kids in general. Personally I think the exposure is valuable in both directions.

[SKL]

It seems to me that if your kid is already the smartest kid in your zip code, having to be with regular kids isn't going to mess up his job prospects down the line.

[JumpyTheFrog]

It isn't perfect, but my point is that barring anyone below genius IQ from challenging classes only makes the overall situation worse.

 

I think you misunderstood some of us. We don't want kids who are benefitting from a pullout program to be kicked out. There's no reason why schools couldn't have several levels of programs, each more challenging than the next. That's why I said I thought having five or more tracks for each subject would be ideal. It's not that I'm afraid of common kids "polluting" mine, as you suggest, it's that I want each child to have access to math at their level, reading at their level, etc.

[SarahW]

I agree with Hoppy.

 

Just an example, for my kid's K'er class they selected the kids who already knew the alphabet, numbers, colors, and shapes. It wasn't crazy hard. But even with all the differentiation in the world, I can't imagine a class of 25 K'ers where the teacher is trying to explain "A is ahh like apple" to one kid and teaching double digit addition with carrying to another. And then what would she read at storytime? It was far easier on everyone if the teacher could work with a basic level of knowledge of everyone in the class.

 

And, as much as I liked the differentiation aspect, I wish it had been more differentiated. Not sure what differentiation looks like elsewhere, but in kid's class the teacher could just introduce a topic and then give different worksheets to each kid depending on his level. I'm realizing, now that I'm working with my kid full-time that he missed some of the explicit instruction for his level on certain topics.

 

The classroom is for teaching, not for the distribution of worksheets or independent learning.

 

Like I said in my pp, there were some HG kids in my kid's class, and even in the accelerated classroom the teacher needed some mad skills to reach them. Apparently, one of the HG girls "lived in her own world" according to the teacher (this was told to us in the context of getting my kid tested for his issues). Dump a 6yo girl like that in a classroom with a teacher who has little experience with gifted kids and I suspect that a complete disaster would usually result.

 

I don't think my kid has been negatively affected by being in a class for "smart" kids. He meets different kids outside of school all the time with a range of ages and abilities. He doesn't think twice about his grade level, but then, I don't bring it up at all. And being in a classroom with kids pretty much on the same level as him kept him from comparing himself favorably (or unfavorably) with other kids. Only a very rude person would enumerate to their kid all the ways they were smarter than all the other kids in the "stupid" classes, I think.

[SKL]

I'm not against differentiation at all. I'm not against inclusion either. I think there's a time and place for both. What bothers me is the attitude some seem to have of looking down their noses at kids who are doing quite well but weren't born geniuses. How dare their parents think they deserve a challenge or distinction. It seems especially silly since these commenters are dissing kids they don't even know intimately. Anyone who didn't know me well would think I was average at best. Same with my daughter, and I'm sure there are millions of people walking around with high IQs that you'd never suspect. Why, my severely dyslexic dad tested with a 129 IQ when he was 15 in the 7th grade, getting ready to be kicked out of school. (Maybe that's why this discussion bugs me so much.) Intelligence shows up in the most unlikely places. And, a little open-mindedness goes a long way.

[SKL]

I wonder what people would say if I complained that my very athletic daughter wasn't being challenged enough in gym class (at school), due to the fact that the activities are dumbed down to the class average.

[Greenmama2]

I wonder what people would say if I complained that my very athletic daughter wasn't being challenged enough in gym class (at school), due to the fact that the activities are dumbed down to the class average.

 

Well I recently encountered a situation like this when a local home school gymnastics class started up. It was, hmm, interesting. This attitude is certainly not limited to academics.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I wonder what people would say if I complained that my very athletic daughter wasn't being challenged enough in gym class (at school), due to the fact that the activities are dumbed down to the class average.

 

If she were in gym class for 30 hours per week, your frustration might be justified.

[songsparrow]

The classroom is for teaching, not for the distribution of worksheets or independent learning.

 

:iagree:

 

I wonder what people would say if I complained that my very athletic daughter wasn't being challenged enough in gym class (at school), due to the fact that the activities are dumbed down to the class average.

 

The irony in our local PS is that there are different levels of challenge available in the PE classes and extracurriculars - for example, they have a basic dance class that anyone can join, but you have to try out for the advanced dance classes; the same is true for music (there are basic chorus and band classes that anyone can join yet competitive tryouts for a more elite chorus and jazz band) and theater (which is very competitive for roles in the annual musical production). Yet there are not similar options available in any academic subject except math, where you can test to accelerate into algebra.

[AndyJoy]

WARNING: Crazy-long rant

 

I feel so blessed to have the opportunity to home school my kids. Both DH and I were smart, unchallenged kids in a traditional classroom setting. We encountered a lot of people along the way who were dismissive of our need for challenge. The idea that you can just leave the gifted kid alone and he'll be just fine is hurtful to us—it feels like educational neglect rather than outright abuse. Especially in DH's case, this attitude from many of his teachers led to problems. It would be nice if the majority of teachers understood the needs of gifted kids for challenge, even if they were unable to provide it in the classroom, and just let the student have time for independent study. Unfortunately, this was not our experience. We encountered way too many teachers who seemed threatened by our knowledge, were rigid in their expectations, and felt bound by a false sense of fairness to treat us like every other kid. This doesn't mean we felt deserving of "special treatment" because we were born smart; it means that our definition of fairness means treating each kid in a way that is appropriate for him/her whenever possible. When kids argue that their parents aren't being fair, many parents answer that they are different people with different needs/wants/abilities/strengths/weaknesses, and treating them exactly the same is less "fair" to someone. Meeting each kid's individual needs is better.

I knew a family with 5 kids ranging in age from 2-15. In the name of fairness, they went overboard tried to make everything equal. This meant that 2-year-old got 4 Oreos just like the 15-year-old boy, even though that made a ridiculously larger impact on her sugar intake for the day. If the oldest got to stay up until 10:30, why shouldn't the 5-year-old get that perk? If the olders wanted to do something that wouldn't work well developmentally for the youngest 2, they often had to forgo it so that the little ones wouldn't be jealous. As you can imagine, this lead to a lot of resentment on the part of the older children. Their needs and interests were ignored and forgotten in favor of the youngers.

 

This is how a lot of school was for my DH. We're not talking about "ancient history" with stereotypical rigid teachers from the 1950s or earlier. He's only 29. But he experienced a major lack of understanding from his teachers. They didn’t care that he could complete an assignment that was supposed to take the whole period in 7 minutes. He had to sit quietly and do nothing else lest he “distract†others or make them feel badly that it took them longer. He was chided for reading books above grade level (the Hobbit in 2^nd grade). He was mocked and made to feel guilty for leaving during class for a one period, once-a-week pull-out enrichment program. He was expected to be a good little obedient boy and never get bored with learning nothing for hours a day. He was supposed to sit quietly, never question or disagree with the teacher, and be happy learning nothing. Many people recognize that the school setup is pretty hard on active boys in general anyway—adding a crazy-busy mind to that with no outlet is insane! One might argue that he was physically capable of both reading and behaving in class, but it certainly wasn’t reasonable to expect it day in and day out. This kind of constant boredom and mental inactivity led to some acting out. Once he was punished enough times, he just withdrew mentally and developed a hatred of school, disdain for many of his teachers, disgust with classmates, and distrust of anyone claiming to have his best interests in mind. He received some acceleration/differentiation due to a few perceptive teachers and heavy lobbying from his parents and even some “cheating the system,†but this did not erase the damage done by indifferent or downright hostile teachers and administrators.

 

I fared better because I had a 1) better mix of teachers who were accommodating, 2) was a girl who was less physically restless, 3) am not as gifted as he is, 4) had a strong, close, encouraging relationship with my parents that he lacked, 5) have a rule-following personality, 6) am an extrovert who likes being around people for people's sake, even if the activity seems pointless. I too, however, struggled with school issues. My K teacher quickly figured out that I was going to "be fine" without instruction, so she sat me next to the youngest boy in the class who was squirrely and unprepared for the classroom setting (as is typical of not-quite-5-year-old boys). I was supposed to be his "helper." Then she brought up at parent-teacher conferences that I talked to him too much and coached him and helped him too much. What did she expect from a 5-year-old? She wanted me to be his little mother with the maturity of a 30-year-old! In 6th grade, my math teacher would let me have the assignment before her lecture so I could covertly do it while she taught the others. Then I could have the rest of the period free for my own reading. This sounds great, except that she sat me between the two juvenile delinquents in the back row who she'd given up trying to reach. So they spent the period bullying me, intentionally distracting me, and exposing me to soft porn and filthy language. She also used me as a buffer to stand in line between a bully and another boy which lead to me being kicked in the shins so hard I bled. She'd put me with 2 struggling, disinterested students every group project so I'd end up doing all the work. Finally one day my best friend and I stood up for ourselves and talked to her about this. We argued it wasn't fair that we had to always be separated so we could bring up the class average on group projects. If we'd both been average students, she would have let us be in the same group! Also, how did it make sense to spread out all the A students so that every group got an A, when the C students were still doing C work, it was just masked by the work of the A students! After that she did a better job of changing up the groups. Another of my 6th grade teachers tried to shame me publicly for the first 2 months of school until she finally figured out that I was actually completing her assignments accurately in that short period of time and not just slapping something down on paper to get finished. After that she was less openly hostile, but she was definitely passive-aggressive in her attempts to find ways to take me down a peg in front of the class. In high school I had a very intelligent math teacher who didn't understand me either. She interpreted my desire to truly understand when I made a mistake as arguing and grade-grubbing. I didn't want extra points, I wanted to understand where I went wrong, but she was mocking and dismissive. I both loved her for her math ability and passion for the subject, and loathed her for her inability to understand my needs.

 

It is depressing to spend years in a place where you are stifled intellectually. Add to that the mockery of peers and the indifference or outright hostility of teachers, and not every gifted kid is going to turn out "just fine." I think my struggles with perfectionism were exacerbated by a non-challenging school setting. In my child teen/mind, if I wasn't going to learn much, at least I could focus on getting perfect scores. If the content is so easily grasped, why shouldn't I get 100% (plus the bonus question) on every assignment? At least that way I'm getting something out of school. This lead to hard emotional falls when I slipped. I felt conflicted and confused because according to various people in my life my innate abilities were nothing to be proud of--only hard work counted for something. So then if school comes easily for me, I can't work hard at it (never mind that drudging through pointless homework requires discipline!) Thus, there is nothing I can be proud of academically. So I set up my own goal--perfection! I didn't care what grade anyone else got, I just knew that working hard for me in a classroom setting meant never slipping up, ever. You can imagine the pressure I put on myself. It took years for me to shed this impossible internal standard.

 

So when someone takes the sarcastic, "poor little gifted kid isn't challenged" attitude, I get a bit frustrated. Just with my own personal experience and that of my husband, it's way more complicated than that.

[AndyJoy]

I'm not against differentiation at all. I'm not against inclusion either. I think there's a time and place for both. What bothers me is the attitude some seem to have of looking down their noses at kids who are doing quite well but weren't born geniuses. How dare their parents think they deserve a challenge or distinction. It seems especially silly since these commenters are dissing kids they don't even know intimately. Anyone who didn't know me well would think I was average at best. Same with my daughter, and I'm sure there are millions of people walking around with high IQs that you'd never suspect. Why, my severely dyslexic dad tested with a 129 IQ when he was 15 in the 7th grade, getting ready to be kicked out of school. (Maybe that's why this discussion bugs me so much.) Intelligence shows up in the most unlikely places. And, a little open-mindedness goes a long way.

 

Is anyone questioning the thought that every child deserves challenge? I didn't get that vibe from the posts. I think people are just arguing that since the school system is not going to meet every child's needs perfectly because of the very nature of institutional learning, it makes the most sense to use your resources to differentiate for the outliers whose needs are farthest from the middle. They are the ones who will benefit the most from different methodology and content. It seems to me that meeting their needs would also better meet the needs of the majority students too because teachers could better focus their energies on the students who have more homogenous academic needs.

 

Deciding how to recognize/evaluate giftedness, determine who would benefit from acceleration/differentiation, and figure out what criteria to use for placement is a completely different discussion in my mind.

[Embassy]

As for the great tragedy of smart kids not being challenged, I think the situation is not ideal BUT the problem tends to be overstated here. A smart child who can read and behave in school should be able to work something out with most teachers so he can do some independent learning in school. Of course it's not going to happen for the whole 7 hours; no kid in school is learning academics the majority of the time. But how much is enough?

 

It is a tragedy for many kids. So many gifted kids that are not highly-motivated achievers fall through the cracks. I know of an individual (probably HG) who gave up by 3rd grade. This kid didn't care about school or grades or the whole system. This kid read profusely in his free time and really educated himself. The materials the kid read were not typically topics covered in elementary or secondary education. If something happened to connect with him in the classroom and he put effort into the assignment it wasn't unusual for the kid to be suspected of cheating.

 

I know my son would not be able to work something out with the teacher in order to be challenged. That kind of thing would only work for a certain kind of child - the kind of child that is highly self-motivated and organized. I also have a son that is highly self-motivated and organized. I can see the scenario, although not ideal, working for that child. However, my right-brained kid would not be able to do that without significant parent or teacher involvement.

 

Gifted children shouldn't be expected to educate themselves at school.

[Embassy]

WARNING: Crazy-long rant

 

I feel so blessed to have the opportunity to home school my kids. ..... (BIG SNIP)

So when someone takes the sarcastic, "poor little gifted kid isn't challenged" attitude, I get a bit frustrated. Just with my own personal experience and that of my husband, it's way more complicated than that.

 

 

Your story is one very important reason I have no desire for my children to attend a public or private school any time soon. I know stories like yours are too common. I've lived some of the same things. I am so thankful that I can homeschool my kids.

[AndyJoy]

 

Your story is one very important reason I have no desire for my children to attend a public or private school any time soon. I know stories like yours are too common. I've lived some of the same things. I am so thankful that I can homeschool my kids.

 

 

:iagree:

 

For a while I was annoyed at my mom for discouraging me from becoming a teacher because I thought her reasons were invalid. I got a degree in accounting instead. Then I taught middle school for a year at a private Christian school, and discovered I was glad I hadn't planned on teaching in an institutional setting long-term. My reasons for deciding it wasn't a good fit for me were somewhat different than my mom's. One major thing is that I can't stomach the daily guilt of feeling like a portion of my students are being neglected academically. I spent a lot of time and energy differentiating when possible, trying to meet their needs, nurturing their interests, trying to create challenge, etc. but there was only so much I could do for them in that setting, even with pretty small class sizes. I'm looking forward to teaching my own at their own levels, whether they end up gifted or not!

[AndyJoy]

It is a tragedy for many kids. So many gifted kids that are not highly-motivated achievers fall through the cracks. I know of an individual (probably HG) who gave up by 3rd grade. This kid didn't care about school or grades or the whole system. This kid read profusely in his free time and really educated himself. The materials the kid read were not typically topics covered in elementary or secondary education. If something happened to connect with him in the classroom and he put effort into the assignment it wasn't unusual for the kid to be suspected of cheating.

 

I know my son would not be able to work something out with the teacher in order to be challenged. That kind of thing would only work for a certain kind of child - the kind of child that is highly self-motivated and organized. I also have a son that is highly self-motivated and organized. I can see the scenario, although not ideal, working for that child. However, my right-brained kid would not be able to do that without significant parent or teacher involvement.

 

Gifted children shouldn't be expected to educate themselves at school.

 

 

:iagree:

 

I had a classmate who was likely HG who had definitely given up by the time I met him at age 10. He was getting Cs and Ds in 5th grade and was in the one-day-a-week pullout program. He was a completely different kid on Wednesdays when he wasn't stuck doing useless busy-work all day. It was as if a switch flipped and he came alive and could be himself.

 

My DH was often accused of cheating (even in college) when he surprised the teachers by being really engaged by something. They interpreted his apathy in the classroom as something other than sheer boredom and were usually distrustful of how articulate he could be on paper. IMO this happens more often with gifted boys. The girls I've known (including me) were more willing to "play the game" of school and more interested in pleasing our teachers so we got better grades than our male counterparts. DH always had excellent grades in school because he would have been in horrible trouble with his parents otherwise, but he could get good grades without really showing his true abilities. When he did connect with a topic and really shined, his teachers were sometimes suspicious.

[musicianmom]

AndyJoy, I could have written a lot of your post. Yes, when the only real challenge in school is to try for 100 on every report card, it all just becomes a game and learning falls by the wayside.

[SKL]

It is a tragedy for many kids. So many gifted kids that are not highly-motivated achievers fall through the cracks. I know of an individual (probably HG) who gave up by 3rd grade. This kid didn't care about school or grades or the whole system. This kid read profusely in his free time and really educated himself. The materials the kid read were not typically topics covered in elementary or secondary education. If something happened to connect with him in the classroom and he put effort into the assignment it wasn't unusual for the kid to be suspected of cheating.

 

I know my son would not be able to work something out with the teacher in order to be challenged. That kind of thing would only work for a certain kind of child - the kind of child that is highly self-motivated and organized. I also have a son that is highly self-motivated and organized. I can see the scenario, although not ideal, working for that child. However, my right-brained kid would not be able to do that without significant parent or teacher involvement.

 

Your first paragraph sounds like my brother. His idea of a good time was to read college textbooks and write computer code for days on end (mostly outside of school hours). He did not love school, but there are many kids in all IQ ranges who don't love school. My brother's life was/is far from a tragedy. He got an education and has a career and a family. ... As for your second para, if a typical child had issues with motivation and organization in school that prevented his success, the advice would be to learn organization and get motivated. As far as I know, there is no accommodation for these issues in schools, regardless of IQ. Average kids who lack motivation/organization get below-average scores and sometimes end up getting retained or tracked into low-ability groups. It's not ideal, but it's not specific to gifted kids. ... I am certainly not saying there is no room for improvement in schools. Obviously there is lots of room. But we all know that schools have limited resources and I think it's appropriate that their first priority be making all capable kids employable / college-eligible. I think it makes more sense for classroom teachers to be taught and encouraged to differentiate within the classroom, than to rely mainly on pull-out classes. I think it's wonderful that many if not most schools have gifted programs, but this is something I appreciate as a perq. And yes, I think it's unfortunate that my gifted kid learned little in first grade, but I blame that on her teacher's lack of creativity and flexibility, not on the fact that she sat in the same classroom as kids who weren't good readers. As my kid gets older I fully expect that she will find a work-around, just like her mom and aunts/uncles did. IQ doesn't have a shelf life. It will still be there once she encounters an opportunity to really put it to use. ... My kid has spent nearly every minute of the past 5+ years with her academically average/struggling sister, and I'm pretty sure that hasn't hurt her in the least. If anything it challenges her because it gets her engaged in stuff that isn't her forte/interest, such as gymnastics/dance and socializing with friends. For that matter, when I was the smartest kid in my grade, there were still things I had to learn from my classmates because their experiences were different and often more interesting than mine. ... This is not to say parents should ignore their gifted kids' special needs, but I don't know that it's fair to lay it all on the schools to meet those needs. There are many things parents can do at home to mitigate the problem, just as parents of struggling students have to do a lot at home if their kids are to succeed. I realize not everyone agrees with this allocation of responsibility.

[AndyJoy]

I personally don't believe it is necessarily the school's job to meet all of any student's needs. This is obviously impossible. I do, however, think that if they expect to have kids for about 1/2 their waking hours per day they ought to be more than a holding pen or even an independent learning environment.

 

I would love to hear about strategies for differentiation in the traditional classroom that are successful and can be practically integrated. It seems overwhelming to me to try to do it this way consistently, and I am gifted myself! I find it hard to believe that the average teacher of 25+ students could effectively differentiate given the limits of time, space, money, etc. even if she/he happens to be a creative person. I've encountered enough logic/content, classroom management, and personality issues with teachers and teacher ed students to expect them to be able to be able to balance much differentiation as well! Being a teacher is HARD, even without a smart-as-whip kid with incessant questions "pestering" you at every turn. It is much more pragmatic to teach to the middle and let the others fend for themselves.

 

One thing that in-class differentiation often lacks for gifted kids is actual teacher face time. Setting them up with their own independent learning is still shortchanging many of them, IMO. I was a very motivated self-learner, but I craved real discussions with a live person, not more time for endless independent reading, which is a common "solution." Participating in normal class discussions/questioning was often frustrating because it opened me up to mockery as the teacher's pet if I appeared too eager to contribute and deeper questions were dismissed with an apologetic (or not) "We don't have time for that," or "I don't know," or "That's not necessary for our discussion." I don't think it's possible to educate/persuade/force the majority of teachers to do a good job of dealing with gifted kids in the constraints of the regular classroom. I think they need specialized teachers who have a different skill set that uniquely meets the needs of gifted kids. Just as I don't think every teacher is suited to teach special ed, Kindergarten, or Calculus, I think gifted kids need teachers who are passionate about them, not just capable of somehow coping with them.

[SKL]

 

I would love to hear about strategies for differentiation in the traditional classroom that are successful and can be practically integrated. It seems overwhelming to me to try to do it this way consistently, and I am gifted myself! I find it hard to believe that the average teacher of 25+ students could effectively differentiate given the limits of time, space, money, etc. even if she/he happens to be a creative person. I've encountered enough logic/content, classroom management, and personality issues with teachers and teacher ed students to expect them to be able to be able to balance much differentiation as well! Being a teacher is HARD, even without a smart-as-whip kid with incessant questions "pestering" you at every turn. It is much more pragmatic to teach to the middle and let the others fend for themselves.

 

I'm not saying it's easy nor a perfect solution, but there are materials and strategies that can be used. For example, at least some textbook companies publish workbooks at different ability levels. My kids' LA and math curricula have above / challenge level workbooks available that are designed to be used instead of what the average kids are working on (and there are parallel materials for slower kids, too). So for example, chapter X has the same theme and general concepts in all three workbooks, but the challenge level workbook involves more complex reading and reasoning harder spelling words, etc. However, my kids' school / teacher nevertheless had every student in the 1st grade use the same books and move at the same pace all year long. As far as class discussion etc., there's no good reason for teachers to discourage higher-level interaction in the appropriate time and place, while limiting it during lecture / silent reading time. Children could be asked to write down their questions to be asked at the end of an interval, instead of blurting them out all day long. Writing assignments etc. are self-differentiating if the teacher bothers to consider what each child's capability is. Another win-win is to have the high scorers / quick finishers teach / tutor others or make up their own real-life examples of the concept being studied. Having to explain concepts to another person is a much higher-level task than just completing one's work on paper. ... Most teachers who like their jobs are excited to work with kids who can do more than the standard stuff. If there is a whole school that discourages gifted kids from participation in class, then the teachers need training and supervision re a goal to differentiate effectively within the classroom. They need to be incentivized to develop and share best practices with win-win outcomes. Maybe they need to free up some time by delegating other work. ... If more attention were directed at differentiation within the classroom, then there would be no need for most of the smart kids to be segregated for a significant part of the school day.

[Embassy]

I'm not saying it's easy nor a perfect solution, but there are materials and strategies that can be used. For example, at least some textbook companies publish workbooks at different ability levels. My kids' LA and math curricula have above / challenge level workbooks available that are designed to be used instead of what the average kids are working on (and there are parallel materials for slower kids, too). So for example, chapter X has the same theme and general concepts in all three workbooks, but the challenge level workbook involves more complex reading and reasoning harder spelling words, etc. However, my kids' school / teacher nevertheless had every student in the 1st grade use the same books and move at the same pace all year long. As far as class discussion etc., there's no good reason for teachers to discourage higher-level interaction in the appropriate time and place, while limiting it during lecture / silent reading time. Children could be asked to write down their questions to be asked at the end of an interval, instead of blurting them out all day long. Writing assignments etc. are self-differentiating if the teacher bothers to consider what each child's capability is. Another win-win is to have the high scorers / quick finishers teach / tutor others or make up their own real-life examples of the concept being studied. Having to explain concepts to another person is a much higher-level task than just completing one's work on paper. ... Most teachers who like their jobs are excited to work with kids who can do more than the standard stuff. If there is a whole school that discourages gifted kids from participation in class, then the teachers need training and supervision re a goal to differentiate effectively within the classroom. They need to be incentivized to develop and share best practices with win-win outcomes. Maybe they need to free up some time by delegating other work. ... If more attention were directed at differentiation within the classroom, then there would be no need for most of the smart kids to be segregated for a significant part of the school day.

 

 

Giving a harder workbook will help those gifted kids who are highly-motivated and academically driven. It will not help those who actually need to learn in a different way. Academic performance and giftedness should not be equated.

 

I used to work in special education and did pull-out with kids. Some children with special education needs do not learn well in the classroom - they need to be taught differently. The same is true for many gifted children. Brains are wired differently. They don't just need harder material - they need to be taught the material differently.

[SKL]

 

Giving a harder workbook will help those gifted kids who are highly-motivated and academically driven. It will not help those who actually need to learn in a different way. Academic performance and giftedness should not be equated.

 

I used to work in special education and did pull-out with kids. Some children with special education needs do not learn well in the classroom - they need to be taught differently. The same is true for many gifted children. Brains are wired differently. They don't just need harder material - they need to be taught the material differently.

OK but again, this (your second para) is true of kids in general, regardless of IQ. I think that when we debate the appropriate class composition of a brick-and-mortar school (other than one specifically designed for special needs), we assume we're speaking of kids for whom a classroom environment is appropriate in the first place. ... If you're gifted AND have no specific learning issues such as APD, then you don't have to be "highly motivated and academically driven" (compared to peers) to work in a harder workbook. You just have to be willing/able to write answers in a book, same as most everyone else. The point is that it is possible to challenge a higher-IQ kid in the same room as average kids, other things remaining roughly equal. I do not accept that a large % of gifted kids are incapable of learning in / tolerating a regular classroom. I know too many gifted people/kids and that just isn't the case. Even if they do have different learning styles, by the age of 6-ish, they have the ability to put in the effort to figure things out without special instruction - unless they have disabilities, which most gifted kids do not.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I completely get the idea of gifted folk being more likely to flock together and procreate. I also accept the idea of the numbers being skewed in some areas due to the types of jobs available (I happen to live in just such an area). However . . . I think the primary issue is that students are being identified as gifted without individually administered IQ tests. In our county (land where 50% of the kids are gifted), all 3rd graders are screened. Students are given the CogAT (a group IQ screener), and (if they score at the 85th percentile) then they are given the Iowa Test of Basic Skills. If the student scores at the 92nd percentile on the CogAT, the 92nd percentile on either Total Reading or Math on the Iowa, and has a Portfolio that shows them working at least one grade level ahead then they are admitted. This is the new higher standard! Up until 2 years ago, students only had to score at the 85th percentile on the CogAT and at the 90th percentile on either Total Reading or Math on the Iowa. I'm sorry, but that's not a very high cut-off. I know that's a much lower standard from when I used to teach in another state and students had to score 131 or higher on either the WISC or the Stanford-Binet.

 

Honestly, I do not see the problem of more people wanting their kids to get gifted education as long as they can do the work and as long as they are serving the needs of those who are truly in the gifted range. I think people are clamoring for gifted education in order to escape from regular education classes which are all too often content- free and low expectations. In other words, most classes are way too easy!!!

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

OK but again, this (your second para) is true of kids in general, regardless of IQ. I think that when we debate the appropriate class composition of a brick-and-mortar school (other than one specifically designed for special needs), we assume we're speaking of kids for whom a classroom environment is appropriate in the first place. ... If you're gifted AND have no specific learning issues such as APD, then you don't have to be "highly motivated and academically driven" (compared to peers) to work in a harder workbook. You just have to be willing/able to write answers in a book, same as most everyone else. The point is that it is possible to challenge a higher-IQ kid in the same room as average kids, other things remaining roughly equal. I do not accept that a large % of gifted kids are incapable of learning in / tolerating a regular classroom. I know too many gifted people/kids and that just isn't the case. Even if they do have different learning styles, by the age of 6-ish, they have the ability to put in the effort to figure things out without special instruction - unless they have disabilities, which most gifted kids do not.

 

 

You position that most gifted kids are capable of learning in a regular classroom is possibly true on the surface, but I contend they will often be short-changed and not really challenged. The schools in my area have massive numbers of kids who function years and decades below grade level. Consequently, in most regular classrooms in this area the majority of the teacher's time are going to be spent on struggling students. I am in favor of tracking with frequent re-assessments so that children are placed appropriately for where they are.

[wapiti]

I do not accept that a large % of gifted kids are incapable of learning in / tolerating a regular classroom. I know too many gifted people/kids and that just isn't the case. Even if they do have different learning styles, by the age of 6-ish, they have the ability to put in the effort to figure things out without special instruction - unless they have disabilities, which most gifted kids do not.

I don't think it's about figuring things out as much as the problem of not being intellectually stretched in a grade-level environment. Sure, some gifted kids come out fine the other end, but plenty of others check out. Potential is wasted, though identification of potential presents a difficult problem. I probably post this GDC quote here too often but it's one of my favorites:

 

When gifted children are not given opportunities to work at their own level and pace, they settle for less than their best. They learn to slide by without stretching themselves. Patterns of underachievement are subtle and cumulative; they become harder to overcome with each year. Students who attain A’s on their papers with no effort are not prepared to take more challenging classes in high school and college. When work is too easy, self-confidence to attempt difficult tasks is steadily eroded. A student who has the potential to win a scholarship to an Ivy League university settles for a B average at a state college.

You may find that your thinking changes as your gifted student gets older and further ahead of grade level.

Edited January 12, 2016 by wapiti