Great Article: Envy and Giftedness

[JumpyTheFrog]

http://microscopesareprudent.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/envy-and-giftedness-are-we-underestimating-the-effects-of-envy

 

This was a great article. I guess I am far from the only parent that doesn't want to talk about her child's academic achievements in real life for fear of being accused of bragging.

 

I also experienced some of what the author talks about when I was growing up, especially from ages 10-16. I had friends but felt like a lot of people didn't like me. They seemed to think I thought I was better than them. It got a little better once I joined a varsity sport in 11th grade, but I still felt like I never really fit in.

 

I am grateful that I can homeschool my boys and hopefully help them avoid some of the social pain. I am also thankful that they are very inclined toward sports, because it will give them an area to excel in that isn't socially taboo to discuss.

 

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Great article, very informative, explains a lot. But it's not going to reach the people who really need it, like the blog mom mentioned. And it doesn't really offer any help or advice to the parents of gifted kids or for the kids themselves. :(

[JumpyTheFrog]

I agree that it doesn't have any solutions. Although I suppose anyone who hasn't figured out yet to keep quiet about their child's academic giftedness might have a better understanding why people around them might not like them too much.

[Eagle]

Very interesting article. A year ago I was somewhat oblivious to the fact that discussing ds' ability to read would cause others to be uncomfortable. I didn't feel I was bragging at all, just discussing favourite books and wanting to discover more books that other parents' children had enjoyed. At first I didn't even realize ds was ahead in language and reading -- I was an early talker and reader too, so his level seemed right for his age based on my Mum's anecdotes of me as a child.

 

Over the last year it has become abundantly clear that I simply cannot have a discussion that involves ds' abilities with pretty much anyone in person. If I get asked questions I panic and start frantically thinking of what answer will change the subject the fastest. He missed the cutoff last year for K by just a couple of weeks, so he isn't even officially school age yet, but is a fluent reader. His friends don't read at all. If we are at a group activity where ds reads some signs or an instruction sheet people make a point to comment to me about how their children can't read yet because they feel it is important for them to just be children. I find that people want to justify why their children aren't doing the same things by making assumptions about how ds is raised (we must be grilling him with flashcards or forcing him to sit at a desk for hours a day), rather than ds having a natural ability in that area.

[shawthorne44]

I stopped discussing DD's milestones with anyone except the relatives when she was about 1.5 years old. A good friend of mine has a boy 2-3 months younger than DD. (He was born premature, so depending on whether you count from expected delivery date or real delivery date) So, of course, DD did stuff before friend's DS. My friend used DD as a personal "What-to-expect", which is logical. I have a cousin 9 months older that my parents watched for the same reason. Eventually I noticed that friend wasn't interested in discussing milestones, and that it distressed her. It was then I noticed that her DS was quite a bit behind mt DD. I don't want to make her feel bad, so I don't say anything.

[SKL]

It's funny how psychology works, isn't it? Both of my girls were kind of slow to talk, especially around "other people." I used to get that sinking feeling, when I'd hear other darling tots chattering up a storm, that maybe there was something wrong with my kids. Or maybe I wasn't parenting them right. The only thing that really fixed that was, gradually, discovering the great talents that my kids do have. I now have no bad feelings when I tell people "my girls were late bloomers when it came to walking and talking." In fact, I say this often in order to help other moms feel better. While I look for any excuse to compliment their child. ... It certainly doesn't matter to me that other moms know my kid is a great reader etc. And luckily both of my kids are too shy to "show their stuff," erring on the side of blank stares if questioned, LOL. ... I worry more about the "you are an egghead" nonsense Miss E may get in school. But like I said, she is more likely to keep a low profile. Just like her mother. Until I was in 7th grade, when I learned why I was the youngest kid in my class, I thought I was kinda dumb. ;) No idea why. But I suppose it kept me out of trouble, because I don't recall any ill treatment on account of my intelligence. If anything, some of the teachers would use that as an excuse to demand more of me, which I suppose is a good thing.

[SKL]

Oh, and I have a sister whose kids are a few years younger than mine. They are bright children, mind you. But she seems desperate to "make" them meet milestones at least as fast as Miss E. She once told me that she was concerned that her 3yo was "behind" on learning to read. ?! This is completely unfair to her kids, of course. She also tries to stir up negativity with the extended family about me and my kids. So, besides keeping quiet about my kids' accomplishments going forward, I plan to look for excuses to tell her how superior her kids are. Surely they are better than mine at math (like their mother was). Maybe a realization like that will calm her down.

[dbmamaz]

i was harassed in the private school i went to, because i got bumped up to a high school math class during 8th grade. then i went to public school where even in the gifted class, people were jealous of my scores. I stopped studying and threw my grades on purpose, because i wanted to have friends. I almost didnt graduate from high school . .. mostly because i discovered, once i started letting my grades fall, that it really upset my mom. which i liked. oy.

[Lilaclady]

Nice article. I think it is really sad though that parents have to say negative things about their dec to justify their giftedness. Their are very few parents in my homeschooling circle that I can tell exactly what we are doing mostly because it will be seen as bragging.

[2smartones]

Do you know the author? Is there more coming? As someone said, it's not helpful, only informative ... offering information that gifted parents already know all too well. Looks like the site is brand-spankin' new and doesn't even have an about page yet.

[forty-two]

Is there more coming? As someone said, it's not helpful, only informative ... offering information that gifted parents already know all too well.

 

Idk, for me, understanding *why* something happens gets me at least 90% of the way to a solution. I appreciated the viewpoint the post offered - gave me a new and helpful perspective from which to consider things :).

[JumpyTheFrog]

I don't know anything about the author. Someone on a list emailed the group the link to the article today.

[musicianmom]

Well, this article certainly explains much of what went on in my childhood. *sigh*

 

And now I find myself being the envious mom because I failed to pass on the gifted genes to my kids. However, I have enough self-awareness to know that this is an irrational feeling, and I can be happy for the kids who are truly gifted and have awesome parents (like the ones on this board) who give them the opportunities they need.

[Incognito]

That is an interesting article. Thanks for sharing.

[SunshineMom]

We have run into this problem with a parent who is teaching a class in our co-op. This teacher doesn't like my dd because she was consistently out performing her son who was in the same class but three years older. I feel obligated to protect my dd and do not feel comfortable leaving her alone with this teacher.

[ebunny]

Well, this article certainly explains much of what went on in my childhood. *sigh*

 

And now I find myself being the envious mom because I failed to pass on the gifted genes to my kids. However, I have enough self-awareness to know that this is an irrational feeling, and I can be happy for the kids who are truly gifted and have awesome parents (like the ones on this board) who give them the opportunities they need.

 

 

You have a great attitude about it! May your tribe increase!

[Pod's mum]

It helps to have a 2E child. A good friend once commented about my "genius child" when I was talking about what she was doing and let me know that some of her kids were really struggling with the basics. Once she found out my dd has some major areas that will always be an issue she felt better.

 

When I was at school you could brag about really bad marks but you had to 'forget' what marks you got with good grades.

[kiwik]

My child should not have to hide who he is. I am glad he is also good at sports (unlike me) but really sports are not that important whatever society likes to think.

[Uff Da!]

When I was at school you could brag about really bad marks but you had to 'forget' what marks you got with good grades.

 

 

I have noticed some children around here take pride in acting "dumb". They boast about it. I think an interesting spin off article would be one that talked about if and how envy can create this atmosphere in schools and how parents actions contribute to or counter this atmosphere.

[waa510]

That conversation between Abby and Betty and the two paragraphs that follow are so, sadly, accurate. I think I deal with it quite a bit more living in Unschoolerland :(

[SKL]

Today I was at "Math Monkey" where my kids are doing a math camp. Working in the waiting room, I was joined by a granny with her 5yo grandson (they were waiting for his sister). Granny decided to tell me that grandson was going to be 6 in the summer and would be doing a second year of KG like his brilliant mother did; she went on to explain her family's philosophy about why redshirting is best bla bla bla. Since she'd brought it up, I mentioned that my philosophy is the other way and my girls are both young for their grade. The conversation got very stilted after that. Then along came another mom, who mentioned how much her son liked math camp and what others he was signed up for (robotics, computer programing, chess). I said that sounded like a really interesting program for such a boy, and I think this encouraged her, because she started to go on and on (but not in a braggy way). Along the way her voice lowered to almost a whisper as she mentioned the dreaded word - "gifted." (It was relevant to the conversation.) I did my best to show that it was a safe topic with me, but I understood why she whispered it.

[Mergath]

I still think part of the problem with jealousy and giftedness is that nowadays, everyone claims their kid is gifted. It's one thing to let it go if your kid is one of ninety percent who are average, which is statistically how it should work. But now, being gifted is the new minimum for a lot of people. When you're surrounded by people who all claim that their children are gifted, then it becomes harder to not worry about it. You start to feel like your kid is being excluded.

 

You see it or read about it in the hsing community all the time. "Oh, all my kids are gifted. I mean, I've never had them tested or anything, but you can just tell. They learn fast and they're very intense." It's fairly prevalent among psers, too. And when you've heard that four times in a week, it becomes harder to drown out the little voice that says, "Maybe my kid needs to be gifted too, or he/she is going to be at a real disadvantage." For many people, I don't think it's envy so much as fear that what used to be a pretty level playing field is becoming seriously skewed.

[MinivanMom]

I still think part of the problem with jealousy and giftedness is that nowadays, everyone claims their kid is gifted. It's one thing to let it go if your kid is one of ninety percent who are average, which is statistically how it should work. But now, being gifted is the new minimum for a lot of people. When you're surrounded by people who all claim that their children are gifted, then it becomes harder to not worry about it. You start to feel like your kid is being excluded.

 

You see it or read about it in the hsing community all the time. "Oh, all my kids are gifted. I mean, I've never had them tested or anything, but you can just tell. They learn fast and they're very intense." It's fairly prevalent among psers, too. And when you've heard that four times in a week, it becomes harder to drown out the little voice that says, "Maybe my kid needs to be gifted too, or he/she is going to be at a real disadvantage." For many people, I don't think it's envy so much as fear that what used to be a pretty level playing field is becoming seriously skewed.

 

I was looking over the stats for our local elementary school recently and was shocked to find that 1/3 of kids in grades 4 & 5 are identified as gifted (they test everyone in 3rd). We live in a highly educated metro area, but our local suburb is pretty average so I was more than a little surprised at such a high number. They have started sorting the gifted kids into 3 different levels now based on their scores to try to differentiate: moderately gifted, high needs, & very high needs. Out of curiosity I started checking the stats for elementary schools in the neighboring suburb where more of the super-rich, super-smart techies live (same school district, so they use the same tests and cut-offs for qualifying) and the number was 1/2. Yes, 1/2 of the kids in grades 4 & 5 were identified as gifted. I'm sorry, but that's just crazy! It's no wonder those "Duke TIP" car magnets have become so popular locally. If everyone is identified as "academically and intellectually gifted" (in local edu-speak) then I guess you need something more to prove that your kid is still ahead of the pack.

[MinivanMom]

I wanted to add that the elementary school with slightly more than 50% of kids identified as gifted also has a significant number of kids that they bus in from the inner city for "economic diversity". As I was looking at the numbers, I couldn't help but wonder how many of the local kids were identified as gifted versus the inner city kids. I'm guessing the vast majority of the gifted-identified kids are locals. So, let's make a math equation: A school in a fancy suburb has 66% of students attending from the fancy suburb, while 34% are bused in from the inner city. The school has identified 50% of the students in the school as "academically and intellectually gifted". If 90% of the gifted students are from the fancy suburb, then what percentage of fancy suburbanites will be the only loser at the country club with a "non-gifted" student and how hostile will they feel toward those with "gifted" children? Please give your answer in units of envy.

[bakpak]

Alternatively, I wonder if IQs have gone up. Better nutrition, educational opportunities, & possibly most importantly, the likelihood of folks with high IQs having partners with high IQs. Given that I grew up in a rural setting, the likelihood of me meeting, marrying & procreating with someone with an equally high IQ was increased simply because I went to college & grad school and my pool of potential mates saw a sharp increase in IQs the further I went up the academic ladder. I've read that this is also related to the increase in high-functioning autism we see in the population. Obviously it is not a one-size-fits-all explanation, but it seems quite possible that the IQ bell curve has shifted a bit given the rise in college attendance, particularly by women. And similar to autism, we also have a broader definition & greater ability to identify various types of giftedness than we used to.

 

I'm guessing the local rural schools around here have the expected # of gifted kids, but in the university town I'm living in, it's not surprising that there are lots of gifted kids in the PS. I would be careful assuming that folks who live in a highly educated metro area are just playing 'keeping up with the Jones' and the gifted stats are off. I'm sure there's more pressure in such a setting, but it doesn't mean that their children aren't gifted. I would be happy that my child would be more likely to find a suitable peer group! :)

 

From my biologist's perspective, it's like working with endangered species. In certain areas the species is EVERYWHERE and locals have no concept of them being 'endangered'. It's only once folks take a larger view and compare across the entire range (country or world in the case of IQs), that they realize they have something truly remarkable in their backyard. Enjoy your backyards! :)

[Mergath]

Alternatively, I wonder if IQs have gone up. Better nutrition, educational opportunities, & possibly most importantly, the likelihood of folks with high IQs having partners with high IQs. Given that I grew up in a rural setting, the likelihood of me meeting, marrying & procreating with someone with an equally high IQ was increased simply because I went to college & grad school and my pool of potential mates saw a sharp increase in IQs the further I went up the academic ladder. I've read that this is also related to the increase in high-functioning autism we see in the population. Obviously it is not a one-size-fits-all explanation, but it seems quite possible that the IQ bell curve has shifted a bit given the rise in college attendance, particularly by women. And similar to autism, we also have a broader definition & greater ability to identify various types of giftedness than we used to.

 

I'm guessing the local rural schools around here have the expected # of gifted kids, but in the university town I'm living in, it's not surprising that there are lots of gifted kids in the PS. I would be careful assuming that folks who live in a highly educated metro area are just playing 'keeping up with the Jones' and the gifted stats are off. I'm sure there's more pressure in such a setting, but it doesn't mean that their children aren't gifted. I would be happy that my child would be more likely to find a suitable peer group! :)

 

From my biologist's perspective, it's like working with endangered species. In certain areas the species is EVERYWHERE and locals have no concept of them being 'endangered'. It's only once folks take a larger view and compare across the entire range (country or world in the case of IQs), that they realize they have something truly remarkable in their backyard. Enjoy your backyards! :)

 

I doubt that's it. Kids in the US have had better nutrition and education for fifty plus years (and if anything, nutrition has actually gotten worse for this generation than past ones) but it's only the last decade or so that we've seen such a sharp rise in the labeling of "gifted" kids. It seems to run roughly parallel to grade inflation, so I really think it's more to do with parental pressure than anything else. And, as most of us know, the quality of education in the US has been plummeting like a rock as of late, so I don't see how we could be educating so many kids into having higher IQs.

 

I agree that there's most definitely a broader definition of what "gifted" means, but that plays into the wants of the parents more than the abilities of the children.

 

ETA: And we should keep in mind that there hasn't just been an increase in ps kids being funneled into gifted programs, but also in parents using it as a convenient adjective for their reasonably bright kids. I swear, every parent I meet tells me their child is gifted. You know, they haven't done any tests or anything, but they just know little Suzy is gifted because she walked at eight months or whatever. Even as someone who is considered HG via IQ test (so not jealous, lol) I get sick to death of everyone going on about how their kids are so unbelievably gifted. I really think we're doing a disservice to the seemingly small minority of parents who don't claim their children are all gifted by writing them off as envious.

[bakpak]

I can see how grades can be inflated, but not IQs, unless the tests have changed dramatically or they're going more on teacher recommendations. Coming from a rural area where almost no one went to college in my parent's generation, to 10% in my generation (early 90s), to whatever it is now (25% take graduate-placement exams by graduation), I think there's been a big change in the # of kids who go to college. This would be reflected in a genetic inflation of IQs potentially.

[Mergath]

I can see how grades can be inflated, but not IQs, unless the tests have changed dramatically or they're going more on teacher recommendations. Coming from a rural area where almost no one went to college in my parent's generation, to 10% in my generation (early 90s), to whatever it is now (25% take graduate-placement exams by graduation), I think there's been a big change in the # of kids who go to college. This would be reflected in a genetic inflation of IQs potentially.

 

The problem is that they rarely go by IQ anymore when labeling gifted kids. From what I've read, there are so many alternative ways to get a kid into a given county's gifted program that any kid can get in if the parents are persistent enough and willing to pay for enough testing. They now use everything from grades to teacher checklists in a lot of places to determine that kids are "gifted."

[SarahW]

It would be interesting to know how that school district is determining "gifted." Is it a number on a test? Achievement scores? Teacher recommendation?

 

If there is a high-level company nearby employing most of the parents (and thereby attracting extra-smart people to live there) I see how the stats may be skewed.

 

However, there is also the possibility that the school district is using the diversity integration in a wink-wink way. They tout it to make themselves look good, but let the "home" parents know that they don't ever need to have their precious in the same class as those kids. The gifted program is a way to track the kids into a different room.

 

Honestly, I think a part of "gifted" popularity may be because standards are so low that most normal kids with mildly engaged parents are able to exceed them. My kid was in an Advanced Kindergarten last year, and started doing grade 2 reading and math before the end of it. We had him tested for giftedness (because of issues not connected to academic achievement) and he didn't qualify according to the county. He just doesn't see what the big problem is with adding two two-digit numbers, so what if he's 6, and not 8? But I think there are some parents who hear "Your kid is doing above-grade-level work" and take it to mean that their kid must be super-special, not that grade-level-work is actually pretty low, and rather slow moving for early-elementary.

[beaners]

I'm not going to be able to address the "parents think their kids are gifted but they're WRONG" topic without going super-snarky, so I'll say that I choose to believe a parent when he or she is talking about his or her own child. I hope that someone believes me when I affirm that my daughter is actually reading the book in her hands, just like I hope someone believes me when I say that my son really can't tell you what he wants any more clearly. I'd prefer not to talk about either thing with a stranger at the park though.

 

The article rings true for me. It rings true for my experience trying to hide and downplay my children's strengths, and shame on me for the way I've done it at times. It rings true for many of my own experiences in school. I think there's a reason so many people have had the same experiences.

[TracyP]

I found the article interesting, but definitely not helpful. Why do we need articles discussing envy and giftedness? Of course there is envy. There is envy in sports - busted knee caps ring a bell? There is envy between different pay scales and looks and on and on. I think we should be discussing what makes this type of envy different. The difference, IMO, is that making lots of $$$ is cool, great looks are cool, sports stars (even at the hs level) are cool. Being smart is not cool. Who cares about envy? That will always exist. Envy wouldn't be near as big a deal (for the kids) if intelligence made you popular.

 

When it comes to the parents, again, of course there will be envy - so what? I have seen flashes of jealousy from others. I just ignore it and move on. I never brag about my kids in an inappropriate way, so too bad for them. Sometimes I get jealous. I may fake a smile, and I'm not sure whether the other person notices or not. But I go home and try to be truly happy for that person. Y'all don't ever get jealous? You don't think sports parents have to deal with jealousy from other parents? You don't think wealthy families have to worry about causing envy? This is unique to parents of gifted kids? Really?!?!

[Uff Da!]

I found the article interesting, but definitely not helpful. Why do we need articles discussing envy and giftedness? Of course there is envy. There is envy in sports - busted knee caps ring a bell? There is envy between different pay scales and looks and on and on. I think we should be discussing what makes this type of envy different. The difference, IMO, is that making lots of $$$ is cool, great looks are cool, sports stars (even at the hs level) are cool. Being smart is not cool. Who cares about envy? That will always exist. Envy wouldn't be near as big a deal (for the kids) if intelligence made you popular.

 

When it comes to the parents, again, of course there will be envy - so what? I have seen flashes of jealousy from others. I just ignore it and move on. I never brag about my kids in an inappropriate way, so too bad for them. Sometimes I get jealous. I may fake a smile, and I'm not sure whether the other person notices or not. But I go home and try to be truly happy for that person. Y'all don't ever get jealous? You don't think sports parents have to deal with jealousy from other parents? You don't think wealthy families have to worry about causing envy? This is unique to parents of gifted kids? Really?!?!

 

The end of what you wrote I read as being rather emotional. I'm not sure if you meant it that way or not. When I read the article, I thought of the movie "Malena", where the girl isn't able to find a job because the wives think she is too pretty.

 

I think being smart and educated is cool. :shrug: I think most parents would want that for their kids though I am sure there are those that put it low on ther priority list. I am surprised when I hear elementary kids proudly describing themselves as "stupid" or "dumb". I have heard it from smart kids. Is it caused by envy, rebellion, what? Is it safe for any kid to be smart if a two year old is going to be hushed for doing something (anything) too far above their age appropriate level? I don't know and I don't really have much time to ponder it. I just think its sad, and I don't want that for my kids. I want to avoid it if we can.

 

[Wheres Toto]

It helps to have a 2E child. A good friend once commented about my "genius child" when I was talking about what she was doing and let me know that some of her kids were really struggling with the basics. Once she found out my dd has some major areas that will always be an issue she felt better.

 

When I was at school you could brag about really bad marks but you had to 'forget' what marks you got with good grades.

 

I've seen this too. People don't care that my son is clearly working ahead of grade level because it's also clear that he has some quirky issues. I usually won't say my son is gifted because we haven't had him tested. Most of the time I'll say we "suspect he's gifted" and that he's accelerated/working ahead of where he'd be in school.

 

I was gifted (by testing way back when), and dh is gifted at a way higher level than I am. I don't remember it being a problem in school but I was fairly low on the totem pole anyway, and dh was a jock in addition to gifted, so didn't seem to have any problems.

[MinivanMom]

I completely get the idea of gifted folk being more likely to flock together and procreate. I also accept the idea of the numbers being skewed in some areas due to the types of jobs available (I happen to live in just such an area). However . . . I think the primary issue is that students are being identified as gifted without individually administered IQ tests. In our county (land where 50% of the kids are gifted), all 3rd graders are screened. Students are given the CogAT (a group IQ screener), and (if they score at the 85th percentile) then they are given the Iowa Test of Basic Skills. If the student scores at the 92nd percentile on the CogAT, the 92nd percentile on either Total Reading or Math on the Iowa, and has a Portfolio that shows them working at least one grade level ahead then they are admitted. This is the new higher standard! Up until 2 years ago, students only had to score at the 85th percentile on the CogAT and at the 90th percentile on either Total Reading or Math on the Iowa. I'm sorry, but that's not a very high cut-off. I know that's a much lower standard from when I used to teach in another state and students had to score 131 or higher on either the WISC or the Stanford-Binet.

[Embassy]

Alternatively, I wonder if IQs have gone up. Better nutrition, educational opportunities, & possibly most importantly, the likelihood of folks with high IQs having partners with high IQs.

 

It is my understanding that IQ tests are revised every so often and they would be normed by the current population. So a child scoring 140 on an older test may score lower on a newer test if IQs are going up.

[MinivanMom]

I'm not going to be able to address the "parents think their kids are gifted but they're WRONG" topic without going super-snarky, so I'll say that I choose to believe a parent when he or she is talking about his or her own child. I hope that someone believes me when I affirm that my daughter is actually reading the book in her hands, just like I hope someone believes me when I say that my son really can't tell you what he wants any more clearly. I'd prefer not to talk about either thing with a stranger at the park though.

 

The article rings true for me. It rings true for my experience trying to hide and downplay my children's strengths, and shame on me for the way I've done it at times. It rings true for many of my own experiences in school. I think there's a reason so many people have had the same experiences.

I agree. This article probably rings true for most people on this board. I think we have all probably kept quiet about our children at some point due to these issues.

 

Unfortunately, it is also true that there are obnoxious people out there. They are the ones who brag constantly about their child. They are obnoxious whether they are bragging about their natural childbirth, their extended breastfeeding, their pint-sized violinist, their amazing sports star, or their gifted child. When people find out that I gave birth at home, they often react in a strongly negative, "You aren't better than me," kind of way. I've learned not to talk about it. I sidestep questions unless asked directly, and then I word my response very carefully. I know that reaction isn't because they are envious of me. In most cases it's because in the past they've dealt with some "crunchier-than-thou" mom who made them feel bad about themselves for having an epidural or C-section.

 

I guess I just don't feel comfortable labeling everyone who reacts badly to my child's academic abilities with a word like "envy". I think the interaction rings true, but I think the feelings and motivations behind them are much more complex. To just label them as "envy" is arrogant and unfair. "If you don't think my Suzy is as amazing as I know she is then you must be . . . jealous!" That's a heavy accusation. I think it's much more likely that they have encountered an obnoxious mother in the past that bragged constantly about her gifted child . . . or constantly demanded unreasonable special treatment for her special snowflake . . . or claimed all sorts of wild abilities for her child that nobody else could see (and no test score ever backed up). That person is out there and she is making life harder for the rest of us. I think this is an important part of the dynamic. It’s just a huge oversimplification to boil the interaction down to “Envy and Giftednessâ€.

[JumpyTheFrog]

My school district has some "gifted" magnet schools. I looked up their stats and they only have 80% pass rates on the state end-of-grade tests! I guess students don't have to be anywhere close to gifted to go to these schools.

 

I looked up what I thought was a very high performing school district near where I grew up. I wanted to see if they have gifted program. Sure enough, they do, as long as you are in at least 4th grade. The standards to get in? Any number of criteria, including an IQ of 110. Sorry, but that is nowhere near gifted.

[SKL]

Well, where I live there are a lot of suburbs near the "big city" and each one has its own flavor. The high-level professionals flock to certain suburbs to raise their kids. It should surprise nobody that the schools in those suburbs have more gifted kids because, one, IQ is inherited, and two, smart and educated parents are going to make sure their kids' intellectual abilities are nurtured and expressed when appropriate. I am really surprised to see some of the above comments here of all places. It reads like some of you want your kids to be the only "truly gifted" ones. Other people are full of it, but you aren't. How is that any better than what the OP's article talks about? ... As for smart kids "proudly" saying they are dumb, that could be them wanting to be reassured that they aren't, as well as being convinced that they will be better accepted if they are very humble. (And of course, being humble is a great thing, but some of that borders on manipulative.)

[Dmmetler]

I think part of the problem is that giftedness is a spectrum. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I DO envy many of the parents who brag about their gifted child. Because their child, who is defined by local standards as gifted, and probably really is in the top 10-15% of the population, seems so EASY compared to my DD. They've got the kid who makes honor roll and has the needs largely met by a couple of day a week pull-out and wins awards at schools, who is popular and socially comfortable, and who, just generally, not only fits in, but excels.

 

I've got the kid who is statistically less than 1/1000 of the population, and I've been told since age 2 that, basically, she's never going to be "normal". She reads like the gifted kid from central casting-the one who grows up to be Sheldon on Big Bang theory. She's academically accelerated enough that she's counting the days until she can start college classes-but still can't tie her shoes. She burst into tears last night at tumbling because she couldn't do a skill right away. How many 8 yr olds still do that? She is the kid who, when invited to a science class friend's birthday party was introduced to the friends other friends as "This is DD-she's a GENIUS!". She feels like she belongs, mostly, only at academic competitions, and even when she loves something else and really wants to do it, she's always defined by her intelligence. I remember her being upset in K because her teacher had a chapel where she talked about gifts-and listed DD's gift as being good at reading and math. DD was so frustrated that other kids were being talked about loving to draw, or to dance, or to build with blocks. Their gifts were things they loved to do. DD's gift was what she was good at-and the teacher totally missed that she also loved to draw, to dance, and to build with blocks. She still gets that far too often.

 

While homeschooling has worked for our family, it wasn't my first choice. My first choice was our nice, suburban neighborhood school, where I could have watched DD walk all the way to the school doors each day. My 2nd choice, reluctantly, was letting her enter K early at a parochial school that was willing to try to meet her needs, with a friendly, family atmosphere that I could see her thriving in. Neither will work for her. Not ever. And I envy the parents who are so happy with our neighborhood school with good test scores, or who are so happy in the parochial school and have kids who are thriving there. Because even at home, it goes in fits and spurts. Sometimes, I can meet DD's needs. Sometimes I can't. Most of the time I feel like I'm trying to control a 18 wheeled semi with no breaks on a crowded highway.

 

So, yes, I understand envying parents of gifted children at times. Because, ultimately, no one wants to be the parent of the child who struggles and has a hard time. And, in most settings, a "gifted" label is really more of a "high performing" label-and those are the kids who appear to have it made.

[SarahW]

. . . I think the primary issue is that students are being identified as gifted without individually administered IQ tests. In our county (land where 50% of the kids are gifted), all 3rd graders are screened. Students are given the CogAT (a group IQ screener), and (if they score at the 85th percentile) then they are given the Iowa Test of Basic Skills. If the student scores at the 92nd percentile on the CogAT, the 92nd percentile on either Total Reading or Math on the Iowa, and has a Portfolio that shows them working at least one grade level ahead then they are admitted. This is the new higher standard! Up until 2 years ago, students only had to score at the 85th percentile on the CogAT and at the 90th percentile on either Total Reading or Math on the Iowa. I'm sorry, but that's not a very high cut-off. I know that's a much lower standard from when I used to teach in another state and students had to score 131 or higher on either the WISC or the Stanford-Binet.

 

 

What you are describing sounds like an accelerated program, not a gifted program. If they are dumping PG kids into that too and calling it good...well, that sounds really unfair to the PG.

 

My kid was in an accelerated class last year. I'm not sure why the school asked us to come in and have him tested for placement in it. I thought it was just something they did with all new K-ers, but it slowly dawned on me that it wasn't. Maybe because we put down on his intake form that he had attended a European preschool at age 4 (which was completely normal there, so - ??). Anyways, like I said, my kid didn't test into the gifted category, but on his WISC one score was much higher than the other (above the cut-off) and that was what caused some issues with him in the classroom. There were some HG kids in his class (a separate gifted program here starts in 3rd) and the teacher had a gifted child herself, so she was able to fold them in. But, good grief, I guess on paper her job looked easy, all the students easily scored in the 90's on the end-of-year assessment, but I don't know she managed a whole spectrum of kids who thought writing different sorts of triangles on their test was a good idea.

 

All that to say, I think school districts who try to do differentiated instruction are on the right track, but I don't see that as necessitating the gifted label for everything above normal. Maybe in that district they thought "gifted" would be an easier label to go with than "advanced"?

 

 

on topic:

 

But even without my kid being gifted, I have run into some odd looks because of his level of intellectual inquiry. I tend to keep the fact that he asks me to explain cell division or how gravity works to myself. And I think he's already figured out that most adults aren't interested in discussing those topics with him. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Are some adults really that afraid of curious and knowledgeable children? Right now he's still adorable enough to be considered cute, but I worry about what will happen when he advances in knowledge and actually starts using the specific vocabulary that I'm teaching him a la WTM. Sometimes I explain him to others as "oh, he's just a bit weird" and I feel bad about that. I don't want him to think that he is weird just because he is curious about how the world works.

[Wheres Toto]

You all got me curious about what my local school does. We only have one fairly small K-8 school in our district, which is considered a "wealthy, highly educated" district. I knew the program involved "differentiated instruction" in class and then pull-out starting in third grade. Each grade does a different project for the program. On the Gifted Education portion of the website, they do have a list I've seen around the internet on the difference between a "Bright" child versus a "Gifted" child.

 

To be in the program, a child has to fall in the top 10% based on: the Otis-Lennon School Ability Test, Group Reading/Math Assessment and Diagnostic Evaluations, the NJASK test, report cards, teacher evaluations and other evaluations.

 

I remember when I was in school, to be in the G/T program you had to score above 95% on at least one section of the CTBS test, and over 90% on all sections.

[bakpak]

Interesting perspectives. I liked that not graduating from kindy scenario; it was rather similar to my child's scenario of being allowed in a dual-enrollment math class, but not being given the college credit because he didn't meet the age/grade criteria in the articulation agreement.

 

 

This type of thing drives me crazy! How very frustrating... I'm just hoping the more giftedness is talked about and understood, the less likely this sort of thing would happen. Of course, as we're discussing here, there are potential downsides to it being the new cool fad too.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I am really surprised to see some of the above comments here of all places. It reads like some of you want your kids to be the only "truly gifted" ones. Other people are full of it, but you aren't.

 

If you were referring to my comment about the school with the "gifted" program with a minimum IQ of 110, then I ask you this: Would you expect a program with kids with IQs ranging from 80-110 to meet everyone's need? Or would it most likely short-change the kids at the higher end of that range? In the same way, I doubt a program with a range of 110-the highest kid's IQ would meet the upper range's needs well.

 

I found a chart online and 110 is about 83-85 percentile (I don't know which IQ test this is based on). I really doubt that a kid at the 99.9 percentile is going have the same academic needs as these kids.

[JumpyTheFrog]

We've never done any IQ testing. Do some of the tests really not accept "tibia" instead of shin? Also, if a bit of test prep makes a student's scores go way up, then it makes me wonder if the test is accurate or not.

 

I should note that the particular school I referenced had a long list of other ways students could qualify, including standardized test scores about a certain level. I didn't read through the whole list. I would hope that some of the various methods listed would more more accurate for non-native speakers than tests that require native English skills.

[MinivanMom]

Well, where I live there are a lot of suburbs near the "big city" and each one has its own flavor. The high-level professionals flock to certain suburbs to raise their kids. It should surprise nobody that the schools in those suburbs have more gifted kids because, one, IQ is inherited, and two, smart and educated parents are going to make sure their kids' intellectual abilities are nurtured and expressed when appropriate. I am really surprised to see some of the above comments here of all places. It reads like some of you want your kids to be the only "truly gifted" ones. Other people are full of it, but you aren't. How is that any better than what the OP's article talks about? ... As for smart kids "proudly" saying they are dumb, that could be them wanting to be reassured that they aren't, as well as being convinced that they will be better accepted if they are very humble. (And of course, being humble is a great thing, but some of that borders on manipulative.)

No, not at all. I just sympathize with the parent of a kid with a 110 IQ who is tired of hearing the parent of a kid with a 115 IQ and a gifted designation brag constantly. If we're going to discuss the role of envy in gifted children feeling accepted and valued for who they are, then the bragging and the low gifted admissions standards have to be a part of that discussion.

 

I think we have a few different issues being discussed here:

1. The way gifted children (and their parents) are treated by society, and how we can help support them (and ourselves) in dealing with those interactions.

2. The reasons behind that treatment (simple envy vs. something more complex).

3. Low admissions standards for public gifted programs which can lead to both a lack of appropriate services for the highly gifted and a situation where parents feel like they are the only one without a gifted child (potentially leading to even more poor interactions for all of us as parents of gifted children).

[SKL]

Well, a child can be gifted in math and do mediocre on the verbal part of a test, for example, and come out with an IQ of 111. Does the IQ prove he is not gifted? What about the fact that many kids in gifted programs are multi-lingual and English might not be their best language, or their answers might not be conventional because their experience is different? Every test I've ever seen for young kids has had questions that are unintentionally biased toward kids having a certain childhood experience that not all kids have. And of course some kids simply aren't good test takers. ... Another point - what if it was not cost effective to have a whole school for kids only in the 99th percentile? And what about the value of spending time with more typical peers? Just because it's easier for a gifted person to spend time with only gifted kids doesn't mean that's always the best thing for them. ... I guess ultimately, no solution is going to please everyone. Considering that my gifted kid has received zero differentiated instruction thus far, I would think being able to attend a school that at least values differentiation would be better than nothing.

[Arcadia]

3. Low admissions standards for public gifted programs which can lead to both a lack of appropriate services for the highly gifted and a situation where parents feel like they are the only one without a gifted child (potentially leading to even more poor interactions for all of us as parents of gifted children).

 

 

For your third point, taken from my school district website

"Due to budget cuts ********** Unified does not offer an independent Gifted and Talented Education (GATE) identification or instructional program.

 

Differentiated instruction is incorporated into classroom instruction so that all students receive challenging and appropriate curriculum and instruction."

 

The GATE program in the next door school is paid for out of PTA funds for many years and is done afterschool. I don't know if it is still running. When my kids were in that school, the selection was based on a paper test which 3rd graders recommended by their teachers sat for. Parents can request for their kids to sit for the same test. Since the program was PTA funded, I don't know how many were selected each year.

Here parents are talking much more about where to get the best paying jobs with the best benefits, be it Facebook or Google, than whether their kids are gifted. In terms of academics, people are comparing which high schools offers the most AP courses and which private schools are suppose to give the best bang for the buck. No one has mentioned about gifted in my area, autism and ADHD are mentioned a lot more. (ETA: I think I live in a sub-culture)

 

ETA:

I find this article relevant to this thread though.

" Depending on the circumstances, drawbacks of the label for those who are identified as gifted can include the following:

confusion about its meaning;

having to deal with the prejudices and misconceptions of others;

intensified and perhaps unrealistic expectations from self, parents, and teachers;

a sense of being an imposter;

unhappiness with a perceived elitism and exclusivity;

the need to change schools to get the necessary programming;

inflated self-confidence; and

envy or rejection from old friends." from Wrestling with Misconceptions: Is the Gifted Label Good or Bad?

[beaners]

It's tough all around. I want students who need advanced material in one area or the emotional support of a "gifted" program to be eligible even if they aren't globally gifted. I hate that kids slip through the cracks at any level because of the rigidity of the rules. I wish all students could be met at their level, regardless of their strengths or weaknesses. That's why I homeschool. ;)

[Embassy]

FWIW, I've never heard anyone IRL state or hint that their child is gifted. Is that weird? Maybe it is because I never did those mommy groups.

[Embassy]

She burst into tears last night at tumbling because she couldn't do a skill right away. How many 8 yr olds still do that?

 

Okay, my view of normal must really be skewed. Is it that unusual?

 

 

So, yes, I understand envying parents of gifted children at times. Because, ultimately, no one wants to be the parent of the child who struggles and has a hard time. And, in most settings, a "gifted" label is really more of a "high performing" label-and those are the kids who appear to have it made.

 

I agree with you that gifted is often equated with high academic performance. Gifted is so much more complex than academics. If my PG son was in the school system, I can say with almost 100% accuracy he would not have been picked out as someone to get tested. He would be the class clown, never getting his work done, losing his homework, walking around the room kid that would always get in trouble and have to miss his recess. I wonder how many of those kids are not referred for testing because the focus is on academic achievement.