when will you know your dc has had enough grammar instruction? (long term)

[morningcoffee]

I am thinking of switching grammar for next year. We are completing CLE LA level 5 but have also done two years of R & S.

 

Up to recently I think I would have just continuing buying the grammar levels as long as the publisher kept selling them!

 

But now I am wondering what grammar skills/ concepts are necessary to master before calling it "done" and which ones are perhaps too advanced to worry about.

 

When will your know your dc has had enough grammar instruction? What will they know before they stop?

 

btw I am only thinking of switching because I would like more time to devote to other subjects.

[Farrar]

When they troll the internet, complaining about everyone's grammar. :D

 

Honestly, I think this depends on your goals with grammar. It could just be when they write readable, complex prose with few mistakes and can correct their own mechanics. However, some parents want their kids to have a really deep grasp of grammar far beyond what kids today usually would have.

[morningcoffee]

When they troll the internet, complaining about everyone's grammar. :D

 

Honestly, I think this depends on your goals with grammar. It could just be when they write readable, complex prose with few mistakes and can correct their own mechanics. However, some parents want their kids to have a really deep grasp of grammar far beyond what kids today usually would have.

 

 

This is why I am curious about everyone's goals re grammar instruction ... I don't have a long term goal but I would like one!

 

My own educational background is minimal grammar instruction. I started learning new things in R&S grade 3 and 4!

 

I want more for my kids but how much more?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

For me, grammar is done when grammatical thinking is demonstrated in formal logic and in Latin (7th to 9th grade for my boys). When that point is reached, I still continue with grammar for another year to really cement the concepts, but the heavy lifting is over.

[morningcoffee]

For me, grammar is done when grammatical thinking is demonstrated in formal logic and in Latin (7th to 9th grade for my boys). When that point is reached, I still continue with grammar for another year to really cement the concepts, but the heavy lifting is over.

 

 

Thanks Tibbie - what are you using for grammar?

[SilverMoon]

I used to say my kids would certainly finish the whole R&S series and then some. Then we got to the crossroads of making that decision. :laugh:

 

I just decided it for my oldest. His last formal grammar will be this summer, before he starts ninth grade. He's always been a strong grammar student, and even the upper levels of R&S English seem like busywork anymore. He knows it. He uses it. He can practically do those lessons blindfolded. There's no need to beat a dead horse. I've looked at daily practice books or gentle refreshers, but I doubt he'll need them.

 

He used FLL 1/2 way before levels 3 and 4 were written. We hopped around until landing at R&S in grade 5. This summer he's using a Killgallon book and Stewart English 2, which directly show how those grammar concepts are used in writing. (He finds the practice sentences from actual literature to be a breath of fresh air.)

 

 

My second DC is starting eighth grade this fall. At this point she's just not to that point, and will continue with R&S English. I expect she'll let me know when she's ready to be done.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

Thanks Tibbie - what are you using for grammar?

 

 

#1 son used Harvey's Grammar, followed up by a year or two of R&S. The rest have been R&S all the way.

[regentrude]

When they are using grammar correctly without ever making mistakes.

I consider this my goal for grammar instruction. I do not care whether they can diagram a sentence - I care that they can express themselves well using correct grammar and semantics.

 

I do not teach any formal grammar in English at all. We get grammar in foreign languages, and at some point in high school a quick browse through a grammar book to become familiar with the terminology.

[morningcoffee]

When they are using grammar correctly without ever making mistakes.

I consider this my goal for grammar instruction. I do not care whether they can diagram a sentence - I care that they can express themselves well using correct grammar and semantics.

 

I do not teach any formal grammar in English at all. We get grammar in foreign languages, and at some point in high school a quick browse through a grammar book to become familiar with the terminology.

 

I really like this approach. How do you achieve this? Is it through reading (and listening to) great literature?

[regentrude]

I really like this approach. How do you achieve this? Is it through reading (and listening to) great literature?

 

 

No idea if it is through reading and listening to copious amounts of audiobooks; they never had trouble forming grammatically correct sentences. We are all grammar nerds, love books like Eats shoots and leaves and pick on grammar mistakes, but they can't have it from parental modeling since we actually try to speak German at home. They did go to ps in elementary, but were not taught much formal grammar there.

[stripe]

But isn't German very grammatically strong? Do your kids study German grammar?

[Kathie in VA]

I have used FLL 1/2, R&S Eng 3, 5, 7, and some of 9/10 part A. Some of my kids did a few outside writing classes without grammar also. We have also done Classical Writing with Harvey's Elementary Grammar for CW Homer and Diogenese. I now have one doing latin in a co-op using Lingua Latina ... and I'm glad we have some grammar background, it has been helpful.

 

So curriculum wise, I would take any of these programs all the way through. Right now I'm looking at taking my younger three thru FLL 1/2 (original version) and then CW and all it's grammar. This means we stop with formal grammar after 8th grade. In 9th grade we take that time for logic studies with Traditional Logic and CW Herodotus.

 

 

If you are looking more for the grammar topics then I'll go back to the texts and see what I can list for you.

 

ETA: But basically I want them to be able to use grammar to write well, to be able to edit someone else's writing, to be able to read longer, more difficult writing and understand what it is trying to say, and to be able to use it when learning another language.

 

hths

[G5052]

Around here, about 9th or 10th grade. My milestone is that they can write a decent five-paragraph essay with no grammatical errors and are reading Latin literature. Both show language maturity in different contexts.

 

YMMV...

[regentrude]

But isn't German very grammatically strong? Do your kids study German grammar?

 

 

They did a bit when they were younger, and both attended school in Germany for one semester, but most of their German grammar usage they did not acquire from systematic study, but through immersion, just like with English.

 

DD studied a lot of grammar in her French courses, and DS has grammar in his Italian. For studying a foreign language, systematic grammar instruction is absolutely necessary.

[morningcoffee]

I have used FLL 1/2, R&S Eng 3, 5, 7, and some of 9/10 part A. Some of my kids did a few outside writing classes without grammar also. We have also done Classical Writing with Harvey's Elementary Grammar for CW Homer and Diogenese. I now have one doing latin in a co-op using Lingua Latina ... and I'm glad we have some grammar background, it has been helpful.

 

So curriculum wise, I would take any of these programs all the way through. Right now I'm looking at taking my younger three thru FLL 1/2 (original version) and then CW and all it's grammar. This means we stop with formal grammar after 8th grade. In 9th grade we take that time for logic studies with Traditional Logic and CW Herodotus.

 

 

If you are looking more for the grammar topics then I'll go back to the texts and see what I can list for you.

 

ETA: But basically I want them to be able to use grammar to write well, to be able to edit someone else's writing, to be able to read longer, more difficult writing and understand what it is trying to say, and to be able to use it when learning another language.

 

hths

 

Thankyou - that would great!

 

I am seeing a lot of people mention grammar instruction as a means to improving writing. That's really the only reason I would continue with our studies in grammar.

 

I'm not always sure though exactly how that grammar instruction translates to my ability to critique her writing or my dd's ability to write.

 

As I mentioned earlier I am learning grammar alongside my dc so I fully accept I am a novice... but at the moment dd11 is not making mistakes in her writing that I can "fix" with my knowledge of grammar. Maybe that comes later? Maybe I just don't know enough grammar at this stage?

 

Just one more question...

Is grammar instruction mainly relevant to composing well-written sentences? Or it is also helpful for constructing a paragraph and/or putting an essay together?

Thankyou - that would great!

 

I am seeing a lot of people mention grammar instruction as a means to improving writing. That's really the only reason I would continue with our studies in grammar.

 

I'm not always sure though exactly how that grammar instruction translates to my ability to critique her writing or my dd's ability to write.

 

As I mentioned earlier I am learning grammar alongside my dc so I fully accept I am a novice... but at the moment dd11 is not making mistakes in her writing that I can "fix" with my knowledge of grammar. Maybe that comes later? Maybe I just don't know enough grammar at this stage?

 

Just one more question...

Is grammar instruction mainly relevant to composing well-written sentences? Or it is also helpful for constructing a paragraph and/or putting an essay together?

 

If you have the opportunity to watch the Teaching Company's, "Building Great Sentences: Exploring the Writer's Craft", you'll see the value of grammar in understanding how to construct powerful sentences. It isn't just knowing that a particular combination of words is a correct one, rather knowing which choice of grammatical constructs is more useful for a given circumstance.