Singapore vs. BJU Math

[jer2911mom]

If you've used both, can you please tell me what I'd be missing from each if I did the other one? I am coming from a CLE/Singapore combo with CLE as our base. I'm looking for something more conceptual but I am concerned about getting in over our heads in Singapore as our main program. I don't want to rock the solid foundation for the sake of the higher level math/critical thinking. Sometimes Singapore throws us for a loop, especially with the mental math strategies in the HIG. I'd rather keep a solid foundation and add mental math/word problems/critical thinking supplements as needed if Singapore is going to continue throwing us for a loop. But, I can push through Singapore if it is worth it that much more than BJU. I need some insights on the two, please. Are there some areas where they are comparable?

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[jer2911mom]

:lurk5:

[taffnus]

I have the same question. Attempted SM 1A/1B with dd and am now looking at BJU for 2nd grade year.

[jer2911mom]

:lurk5:

[nwmama]

I still wrestling through this too, but I've been thinking about using Saxon(or ABeka or BJU) and Singapore so that they can have the best of both worlds.

[jer2911mom]

My latest thinking is that a Singapore/MUS combo might keep things manageable and give enough fact practice and review. I would do Singapore M-Th and a MUS lesson (week's worth) each Friday.

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[jer2911mom]

I think BJU is a nice blend of what you want. Granted, we just started it today but I have experience with more math programs over the years than I care to admit to including Singapore and MUS.

 

Thanks, I'll be very interested to hear your thoughts on BJU as you continue with it. What level(s) are you using?

 

Kathy

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

Never used Singapore but have used BJU math for 20 yrs. it is a solid math program, that starts gentle but gets all the skills in as you progress through the years. The teacher's manual provides many ways to approach learning a skill to help with different learning styles. Daily review, mental math, oral and written word problems as well as students creating their own to explain a math fact or skill, logic lessons, and more. The cd in the TM offers fact practice, enrichment, and extra math pages. Grades k-6 id teacher intensive (if used as written) and grades 7 up are geared to student lead learning.

[PeterPan]

Sorry, I almost never come over to K-8 anymore! Singapore has rather unique word problems. The books I have are CWP (Challenging Word problems). Did Singapore change the name a child back? Anyways, that's the only thing I can possibly fathom as being different enough to be worth pondering. BJU's math is extremely good now with the new editions. It was good before, and it's WOW now. If you're having trouble teaching Singapore, go to BJU and be in peace.

[jer2911mom]

Thanks, everyone, for your replies. They are very helpful. I am still on the fence. I feel like I don't know what I'd be missing if we didn't do Singapore. OhElizabeth, have you used the main SIngapore program or only CWP?

 

Is there anyone who has used both Singapore and BJU who can compare the two?

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[PeterPan]

I bought a couple books of Singapore WAY BACK WHEN, hahaha... They would have been that level 1, level 2 thing. It was back in those insanity days when people did every parent-intensive curriculum on the planet and did everything in pairs. So we'd do Right Start + Singapore, SWR + a workbook, VP + SOTW... Then we all learned how to chill and simplify. :D

 

We did some of Singapore, erased and sold it off after a while when we were sure we were into our groove. Yes, we did quite a bit of different of the CWP books. The Singapore regular books we used were the 1A, 1B, that kind of thing, not the text they sell. I don't recall ever buying the IP. So anyways, I've seen enough to have an opinion on it. It's just you can't do EVERYTHING, kwim? BJU reflects the conceptual approach (part/whole, units, visualization not counting, etc.) and you can emphasize it when you realize it's there. Conversely, you'll get teachers who don't have a clue what they're looking at, and they'll SKIP things in BJU, not realizing why they're there. So if you're coming from another curriculum, like I was, and want to continue that thought process, it's easy cuz prego it's in there. I haven't used the newest editions of the BJU elementary math, only seen them. What I've SEEN, like in the 6th grade math, was PHENOMENAL. In the old editions, yes we had mental math in the warm-ups. Again, if the mom skips the warm-ups and parent-taught part in the tm and just hands her kid the worktext, did that get done? That's what I was saying, that a lot is in there IF YOU DO IT.

 

BJU is going to focus on conceptual understanding better than CLE, yes. It's going to have some thought processes you're used to. No, it's not going to be quite as much of a focus on mental math, you're right. There are ways around that. What I did was have my dd doing any +/- on the worksheets mentally if they were 2 digits +/- 2 digits. 3+ digits, we did written. So that's one way to get in more mental math. You're still the teacher. We had already done mental math by going through RS D, so we knew how to carry that over into the BJU and how to emphasize to get what we wanted. That's not hard to make happen.

 

BJU is going to be easier for you to teach than Singapore, yes. BJU is more tried and true and likely to work for a variety of students in a variety of situations (more teaching flexibility, with options for high and low learners, kinesthetic learners, social learners, etc.). BJU is *long-term* option that gives you a great path to stay on through high school. Think through that one. Almost no one stays with Singapore through high school. Most people jump out after level 6. If you get into BJU's stream, you're good to go the rest of the way and have the option for video classes and online classes. BJU's new edition high school math is stellar. When you talk high school math, the standard for conceptual instruction (at least to me) is Dolciani. I was taught with Dolciani and still have my algebra 2 book from it. When I use the BJU upper level math, I see that thought process and influence. The word problems are quite good as well.

 

A lot of math from say grades 3-6 is just doing the same thing with harder problems (more #s). You do fractions, and BJU is awesome on fractions. Really though, if you've gotten through a couple levels of Singapore and have done the basics with their methodology, you may find that you can move on to BJU and be very happy. That's how it was for us, going from RS to BJU. And remember too you can see an entire chapter at the BJUPressHomeschool website. After you look through that, you'll probably have an opinion. Or head to a Solutions meeting and try to see stuff in person. They're doing a TON of them right now, so there might be one near you. It would let you see the things in person. :)

[dereksurfs]

OhElizabeth,

 

Its good to see you back over here. I have always been interested by BJU's math at least in part. Though as you say we can't try everything. I guess the things that have kept me from exploring it further were the higher costs for one. And secondly the less independant nature of it which I guess can be addressed at least in part with purchasing the video lessons/lectures? In your case you use it TT which is kind of an interesting mixture. Do you use any of the BJU lessons or simply the texts? for example for BJU pre-A I don't see any lessons/CDs unless I am looking in the wrong place - http://www.bjupressh...-ed.____2243399

 

What do you consider improved or different in the newer versions vs. older potentially used curriculum?

 

Thanks,

[PeterPan]

Derek, I'm a little tired (long drive yesterday for speech therapy then worked out at Curves today, jello arms!), so hopefully I'm understanding you. When BJU updates texts, there's a year lag between when they put out the new edition of the text and when they get the video lessons recorded for it. During that year they totally redo the video lessons to go with the new text.

 

Yes, the new editions of the BJU math are a RADICAL improvement. Cost? Um, well you're asking the woman who buys TT *and* BJU for her kid, both brand new. ;)

 

To me BJU is what I liked about Dolciani (set theory, differentiated problem sets with extra challenging problems, a heavy focus on theory) along with what is fresh and new and applicable. Foerster to me is barfy and a drag, just very mundane in thought process. The word problems are fine which is the only reason I've kept this 2nd copy. BJU's word problems are a bit different, and of course a woman (or shall we say homeschooler?) likes to have tools at her disposal. :)

 

I don't *usually* need to teach the BJU lesson. The only time I need to teach it is if it totally wasn't covered in TT. I'm using them staggered with a big enough gap that I don't even bother trying to correlate them and have usually covered it in TT already. So if TT covered it, then *usually* her understanding is good enough that she can fly through the B problems (just a couple to make sure she's solid) and then goes directly to the C level problems and Dominion Math. The only reason to fiddle around with the other problems is if TT never taught it. For instance, I'm not sure if TT didn't teach recursive and arithmetic sequences or just didn't do it quite the way BJU did, but we had to go through that fully. I don't mind, because the point is to get them to think. But no, in general we go right to the B problems, do a few, and jump to the C's and DM. Works for us. Her scores are awesome so far, speed is up, and it's a good combo for us. Could I think of more combos? Of course. There are lots of good ways to do math. This just happens to be a good one for this particular student. Besides, I like riling people up and saying that you can use TT and get good results. :D

 

PS. I know we could quibble over good. :lol:

[dereksurfs]

Thanks, OhElizabeth! I like that they update the lessons. I think I watched a few of the older lessons a while back which seemed *sooo* boring, like watching paint drying on the wall. :tongue_smilie: It gave me flashbacks from my childhood listening to a professor in a three piece polyester suite speaking in a low monotone voice. :ohmy: Nooo! lol. But you gave me me an idea about using the texts as supplemental at some point. Geesh, my wife would probably kill me if I buy another Algebra text in addition to the all the others we already own. While AoPS is great for ds11, I'm not so sure it will work for my dds. However since BJU covers so many subjects its good to have these other options.

[Wildwood]

n/a

[PeterPan]

Thanks, OhElizabeth! I like that they update the lessons. I think I watched a few of the older lessons a while back which seemed *sooo* boring, like watching paint drying on the wall. :tongue_smilie: It gave me flashbacks from my childhood listening to a professor in a three piece polyester suite speaking in a low monotone voice. :ohmy: Nooo! lol. But you gave me me an idea about using the texts as supplemental at some point. Geesh, my wife would probably kill me if I buy another Algebra text in addition to the all the others we already own. While AoPS is great for ds11, I'm not so sure it will work for my dds. However since BJU covers so many subjects its good to have these other options.

 

Yup, I think having a girl who thinks differently is a VERY good reason to look for more math options. :D I DON'T think all kids think alike. My dd enjoyed the social element of the BJU elementary math. That drops off in the junior high and high school books, but they're still very realistic. Um, I'm not sure who teaches the newest edition of the math videos. Is it Mr. Harmon? If so, he's a hoot. You either love him or you don't. My dd thinks he walks on water. We haven't used his math, but he's hilarious in the physical science. And yes, overall the videos are torture sessions for anyone with blank wall disease or attention issues, mercy. They're trying to change that with some of the new videos (making them shorter, building in some interactive pauses, blah blah). You know my kid isn't normal though. That weird dude teaching TT actually THINKS like my kid. Think about that, lol. My SIL used the new edition videos for the math 7 and said they were quite good. So if you need to use videos, they're probably fine.

 

Ok, a couple things I didn't say that you're smart enough to figure out on your own. The math 7 is so easy you probably won't need the tm. Once you hit 7 and up, the tm's are largely answers, not teaching ideas or scripted lessons. I save my brain, so for the the rest I'd get the tms. It has the problems fully worked out, and well my brain appreciates that. ;) They also have at this level a Student Activities workbook. This too has an answer key. Again, it's how much you want to save your brain. I like having the Student Activities workbook around for when we have time. It has fabulous, fabulous mathy and exploratory activities that even a non-mathy student who's relatively bright can enjoy exploring. And of course it will have some stuff that's just extension of the regular lesson. For the algebra 1 level, I went ahead and got the tm for it as well. I didn't get the tm for the pre-algebra student activities, and I didn't even get the student activities with the math 7.

 

Was that clear as mud? LOL I'm saying if you're teaching it yourself and feeling confident, you can get buy with just the textbook for the gr 7. And you're enough behind them coming out with the new editions that there will soon be used ones on the market. They're just hard to find now. The market used to be FLOODED because they gave you everything along with the videos. (Now they don't.) I'm holding onto my books, because my kids are 10 years apart, putting them right at the time of the change in editions. Either a new edition will come out right before or right after ds, don't know. Either way, I figure it's probably good enough. So anyways, if you don't see a lot on the used market, that might explain it also, that people are holding onto the books to use with multiple kids.

 

You mentioned working independently. That totally depends on the dc. The tm at this level doesn't add a lot (in my lazy and humble opinion) the way it does for K5-6th, so you *could* in theory hand the dc the book. I don't hand *my* dc the book, but that doesn't mean it might not work great for you to do that with *your* dc. It would be just like any other text.

[jer2911mom]

I bought a couple books of Singapore WAY BACK WHEN, hahaha... They would have been that level 1, level 2 thing. It was back in those insanity days when people did every parent-intensive curriculum on the planet and did everything in pairs. So we'd do Right Start + Singapore, SWR + a workbook, VP + SOTW... Then we all learned how to chill and simplify. :D

 

We did some of Singapore, erased and sold it off after a while when we were sure we were into our groove. Yes, we did quite a bit of different of the CWP books. The Singapore regular books we used were the 1A, 1B, that kind of thing, not the text they sell. I don't recall ever buying the IP. So anyways, I've seen enough to have an opinion on it. It's just you can't do EVERYTHING, kwim? BJU reflects the conceptual approach (part/whole, units, visualization not counting, etc.) and you can emphasize it when you realize it's there. Conversely, you'll get teachers who don't have a clue what they're looking at, and they'll SKIP things in BJU, not realizing why they're there. So if you're coming from another curriculum, like I was, and want to continue that thought process, it's easy cuz prego it's in there. I haven't used the newest editions of the BJU elementary math, only seen them. What I've SEEN, like in the 6th grade math, was PHENOMENAL. In the old editions, yes we had mental math in the warm-ups. Again, if the mom skips the warm-ups and parent-taught part in the tm and just hands her kid the worktext, did that get done? That's what I was saying, that a lot is in there IF YOU DO IT.

 

BJU is going to focus on conceptual understanding better than CLE, yes. It's going to have some thought processes you're used to. No, it's not going to be quite as much of a focus on mental math, you're right. There are ways around that. What I did was have my dd doing any +/- on the worksheets mentally if they were 2 digits +/- 2 digits. 3+ digits, we did written. So that's one way to get in more mental math. You're still the teacher. We had already done mental math by going through RS D, so we knew how to carry that over into the BJU and how to emphasize to get what we wanted. That's not hard to make happen.

 

BJU is going to be easier for you to teach than Singapore, yes. BJU is more tried and true and likely to work for a variety of students in a variety of situations (more teaching flexibility, with options for high and low learners, kinesthetic learners, social learners, etc.). BJU is *long-term* option that gives you a great path to stay on through high school. Think through that one. Almost no one stays with Singapore through high school. Most people jump out after level 6. If you get into BJU's stream, you're good to go the rest of the way and have the option for video classes and online classes. BJU's new edition high school math is stellar. When you talk high school math, the standard for conceptual instruction (at least to me) is Dolciani. I was taught with Dolciani and still have my algebra 2 book from it. When I use the BJU upper level math, I see that thought process and influence. The word problems are quite good as well.

 

A lot of math from say grades 3-6 is just doing the same thing with harder problems (more #s). You do fractions, and BJU is awesome on fractions. Really though, if you've gotten through a couple levels of Singapore and have done the basics with their methodology, you may find that you can move on to BJU and be very happy. That's how it was for us, going from RS to BJU. And remember too you can see an entire chapter at the BJUPressHomeschool website. After you look through that, you'll probably have an opinion. Or head to a Solutions meeting and try to see stuff in person. They're doing a TON of them right now, so there might be one near you. It would let you see the things in person. :)

 

 

Thanks, OhElizabeth! It's nice to know your thoughts on the conceptual teaching in BJU and that if you use the lessons as intended, you can mine more out of it. And I'm glad to hear you think the new edition high school math is so good. I would really like the continuity there. I would like to get to algebra in 8th, though. Can the grade 7 book be skipped, or do people push through the books at a faster pace? And then there's calculus to figure out, but we can deal with that when we get there.

 

I was able to look at BJU some at convention. I like what I see, other than the TM font being so small it hurts my eyes to look at, the TMs being written for a classroom, and having to pull stuff off the CD if you want it. I think CLE likely does a better job of ensuring the math facts are learned, but I can deal with that. I think in the back of my mind I just know that Singapore is considered the cream of the crop as far as conceptual teaching/mental math/critical thinking, so I wonder how far off of that we would be coming down to use BJU. I don't think I've done enough Singapore yet to know what we'd be missing mental math-wise, but I know it would likely be a lot. I don't mind adding the Singapore CWP and Math Express books to BJU to get some of the bar modeling and mental math in that way. I just don't know if that makes sense or not, or would confuse things. What I am trying to figure out is if it is possible to get the gist of Singapore math that way, or if you really need to use the entire program to get the true benefit. We are used to the incremental teaching in CLE, and Singapore at times can feel like the exact opposite. BJU feels like it would be middle ground. But I don't want to sell ourselves short with our math education (and I don't mean BJU isn't excellent; this is all relative). I can push if Singapore is worth it. It would be nice if someone who has used both quite a bit could tell me the answer to that. :)

 

I'm still working on the chilling and simplifying part. :)

[PeterPan]

I'm still working on the chilling and simplifying part. :)

 

 

Yeah, you seem to want a lot there. :lol:

 

Um, on this mental math, how much are you wanting? With RS we did a few minutes for a warm-up at the start of each lesson. As long as they *can* do it and they *do* do it for a few problems each day, isn't that enough?? And no, if your standard is doing well on US standardized tests, you're not stepping *down* to use BJU, you might actually be stepping *up*. ;) You're at least a lateral slide. They're different in philosophy. (Singapore's limited scope for each level vs. BJU's larger)

 

Bar, shmar. You know my dd FLEW through the bar problems in CWP and had NO problem with them, despite being generally taught with other programs. Then you get people on the boards here posting about how they don't get xyz problem or HIG solution, even though they've been slogging through SM. Some people think that way, some don't. I don't think everything can be taught (because some people never really seem intuitive at it, no matter how they try), and some people are going to be fine with it, even if they never use that curriculum.

 

What will really get your goat is to find posts by people who used SM with one dc, RS with another, and read their takes. There was a post like that a number of years ago, and basically the dc who did RS had a *better* understanding of math than the dc who did SM. That's why, for my dc #2, I've got RS A (new edition, yippee!) waiting in the wings. Everybody has some kind of koolaid about their program.

 

Yes, sigh, math facts are an issue. How clinical are we talking here? Dyscalculia? Active boy with sieve brain? My dd's math computation scores were 20% lower than her conceptual until we started adding in TT. That finally brought them even. So you're not crazy to think that some kids need a lot more work than others. A teacher using BJU in a school, say for the 4th grade text, is typically going to add in their favorite drill method (page of 100 problems done nightly, that kind of thing). So you've got to use your head. Some kids need a LOT more work than others.

 

We tried CLE btw. It was just too long for her, and I felt like her brain was turning off. I saw that happening with TT too, which is why I decided to add back in the BJU, because I wasn't willing to sacrifice one to get the other. That's how we got our mix. But kids are so individual and math is the hardest thing to figure out, really and truly. Go with your gut and whatever mix addresses your concerns.

 

On the font size, I hate to mention the age thing, but it might be time for reading glasses... When I went to the eye doc last time, he politely termed them "multi-focus lenses"... AKA bifocals... Now I can read the print and not get headaches and fall asleep. :lol: :lol: :lol: I got mine as two separate pairs (not in one), and the reading glasses I put a chain on. That way I look extra distinguished when I wear them. :)

[dereksurfs]

math is the hardest thing to figure out, really and truly.

 

 

I'm going to add to the bolded so is phonics! I'm going nuts trying to pick one for dd. But that has absolutely nothing to do with BJU Math. :)

 

After 3 days, I can tell you Mr. Harmon makes Son 2 (the mathy child) laugh and actually think. The grade 2 teacher (whose name escapes me) keeps the pace clipping so the boys (9 and 8) do not get bored. Each day there is a fact review time and oral problems to solve. I did buy the Reviews book then slotted those pages in by lesson into the main book. I really like it, my kids like it, it is a winner here.

 

For the love of God man, someone please explain to me their video instructions/DVDs which accompany their math books. I find their website very nonintuitive compared to almost every other vendor. For example if I go to the page regarding Pre-Algebra with all this stuff to buy, I'm counting roughly a dozen things. Yet not one of them says video lessons. Why must they make things so difficult to find? http://www.bjupressh...-ed.____2242819

 

Secondly it would be very helpful if they provide some sample lessons from the actual product itself( e.g. Pre-A lectures/lessons). If its there its buried in non descriptive language because I'm not seeing it and I should as a potential customer.

[jer2911mom]

Yeah, you seem to want a lot there. :lol:

 

Um, on this mental math, how much are you wanting? With RS we did a few minutes for a warm-up at the start of each lesson. As long as they *can* do it and they *do* do it for a few problems each day, isn't that enough?? And no, if your standard is doing well on US standardized tests, you're not stepping *down* to use BJU, you might actually be stepping *up*. ;) You're at least a lateral slide. They're different in philosophy. (Singapore's limited scope for each level vs. BJU's larger)

 

Bar, shmar. You know my dd FLEW through the bar problems in CWP and had NO problem with them, despite being generally taught with other programs. Then you get people on the boards here posting about how they don't get xyz problem or HIG solution, even though they've been slogging through SM. Some people think that way, some don't. I don't think everything can be taught (because some people never really seem intuitive at it, no matter how they try), and some people are going to be fine with it, even if they never use that curriculum.

 

What will really get your goat is to find posts by people who used SM with one dc, RS with another, and read their takes. There was a post like that a number of years ago, and basically the dc who did RS had a *better* understanding of math than the dc who did SM. That's why, for my dc #2, I've got RS A (new edition, yippee!) waiting in the wings. Everybody has some kind of koolaid about their program.

 

Yes, sigh, math facts are an issue. How clinical are we talking here? Dyscalculia? Active boy with sieve brain? My dd's math computation scores were 20% lower than her conceptual until we started adding in TT. That finally brought them even. So you're not crazy to think that some kids need a lot more work than others. A teacher using BJU in a school, say for the 4th grade text, is typically going to add in their favorite drill method (page of 100 problems done nightly, that kind of thing). So you've got to use your head. Some kids need a LOT more work than others.

 

We tried CLE btw. It was just too long for her, and I felt like her brain was turning off. I saw that happening with TT too, which is why I decided to add back in the BJU, because I wasn't willing to sacrifice one to get the other. That's how we got our mix. But kids are so individual and math is the hardest thing to figure out, really and truly. Go with your gut and whatever mix addresses your concerns.

 

On the font size, I hate to mention the age thing, but it might be time for reading glasses... When I went to the eye doc last time, he politely termed them "multi-focus lenses"... AKA bifocals... Now I can read the print and not get headaches and fall asleep. :lol: :lol: :lol: I got mine as two separate pairs (not in one), and the reading glasses I put a chain on. That way I look extra distinguished when I wear them. :)

 

 

OhElizabeth, you crack me up.

 

On the mental math, I want some strategies taught. I don't just want a string of numbers thrown at a child to calculate in their head (what I see a lot of in the CLE samples). I don't have sharp mental math skills myself and I would like my dds to gain some. I want my dds to have good number sense. I want them to think in terms of making 10s and 100s, etc. CLE has done some great things for my dd, but I realized this year that while she learned all her addition and subtraction facts, she never nailed down the whole "making 10s" thing. And she never really learned to think in terms of doubles +/- 1. I see that BJU does that and uses the 10-frame, and I appreciate what I see there.

 

Thank you for mentioning Singapore's limited scope compared to BJU's. I had that feeling about the two. CLE definitely has a much broader scope than Singapore's. Now some of that geometry stuff is not needed so early, but I still feel like CLE does a better job covering things early on. I get the feeling BJU is fuller, too. Sometimes Singapore just feels too lean in comparison.

 

My dd has done okay with CWP 1 so far. I feel like we could keep making our way through it. The examples are good. Maybe we've had enough of a Singapore/MIF base to grasp what is going on there. If not, the Singapore Process Skills book would help. I'd like to continue at least the CWP book.

 

We did RS A and part of B before we threw in the towel. It was partly because it fell to the bottom of the stack and we just couldn't keep up with it. I didn't really care for using the back side of the abacus, either. But I plan to use RS A again with my Ker next year. I saw the new version at convention and it looks much better format-wise. But since I don't have another Ker coming along behind this one, we are going to slug through the older one.

 

CLE hands-down does the best job of painlessly ensuring math facts are learned, and that kids can spout them off quickly. I am a bit worried about that with BJU for multiplication and division facts. But we have the Flashmaster, flashcards, computer programs, etc., we can use. I've got a whole list of options. It's more that CLE makes you do all that and you don't have to think about it or remember to do it. My dd can get them with enough practice; I just have to make sure she gets the practice. Interesting your comment about computation vs. conceptual scores. I have had several Singapore users tell me that while all the scores were above average, the lowest score was the computation one. I think what I'm saying in all of this is I don't want to sacrifice computation for conceptual. To me computation represents the basics/foundation.

 

So do you think BJU makes your dd think more compared to CLE? I've definitely heard that said about Singapore and CLE. I started cutting back on the CLE problems this year and it really helped. If my dd did half of the same kind right, she didn't have to do the other half. But it is a pain to constantly be marking off problems. I also cut out the quizzes and she still did well on the tests. That tells me she just doesn't need so much review, or she was getting enough elsewhere. I like that BJU keeps things to 2 pages and has a little review each day and the review book only if you need it.

 

What does TT give you that BJU doesn't?

 

Did you ever use MUS? My dd loves it and thinks it is "fun". I was thinking we could do it once a week. Do you think it would be compatible with BJU?

 

I do like that the font in the CLE TM is a nice, respectable size. :) BJU is trying too hard to squeeze everything onto two pages and conserve paper, in my opinion. CLE does a much better job with white space overall. I suppose if I use the BJU TM, I really will have to use reading glasses, lol. I do like their use of color, though, to make things stand out. I wish they would make homeschool TMs again. Then they could cut out all that unnecessary verbage and up the font size for me. :)

 

Thanks again for your help!

 

Kathy

[jer2911mom]

I used CLE 300-600 with Son 2 and YES, BJU makes him think more.

 

Thanks, Paradox5! Can you pls. elaborate on this?

[PeterPan]

Derek, Paradox gave you the links. When you go to the main BJUPressHomeschool page (homepage) you'll see curriculum and distance learning as options. Click distance learning, then you can search by subject or grade. When you get a product, it will have small tabs above the description and usually the video link for the samples will be right there. Think like a woman. :D (just joking!)

 

Kathy, I don't know your whole situation, but when I read your last post it made me think that what you're really talking about is more a frustration with planning and implementation. You had a great conceptual program (RS) but didn't like it. Do you think using the BJU *videos* would help you? That's why they're there, for moms who want it all done and need help getting there.

 

And yes, I think it's great any time you're doing math hands-on with a young child. Haven't used MUS. I decided to try Saxon K5 with my boy this year, just to be a bit wild and say I had, haha. :)

 

What does TT give that BJU doesn't? Uh, well TT gets DONE. No clue why I didn't try the BJU videos. Actually, I do. The new editions came out right as we were ready for them, and the videos are staggered a year off. So to do new edition, I have to teach it myself. TT has super short lessons, built-in spiral, lots of humor, and a thought process that gels with my dd. BJU doesn't have quite the same type of spiral, the lessons would be longer, and again it wasn't an option. We started with TT at the pre-algebra level. I don't know if I'll end up using those lower levels with ds to round out our approach. I used BJU at that age, yes with the supplemental things they sell. Yes, we used Flashmaster. Dd remembers it fondly. Now there are lots of apps. She's sorta clinical though. I'm just thankful we got to the other side, lol. It's the bad memory you try to forget, whew!

 

Make a practical plan that will actually get done.

[dereksurfs]

I used CLE 300-600 with Son 2 and YES, BJU makes him think more.

 

Dereksurfs...ummm I'm a WOman ;)P

 

Here is the link to the video samples page.

 

http://www.bjupressh...g-sample-videos

 

This one compares the features of the 3 options.

 

http://www.bjupressh...compare-options

 

This one compares the pricing of the 3 options.

 

http://www.bjupressh...-compare-prices

 

And here is the main DL page.

 

http://www.bjupressh...arning____23702

 

Thanks for these links Paradox5. After fishing around quite a bit last night I found most of them. Still, it could be much more user friendly. Maybe I am more bothered by these sorts of things as a software engineer/web designer. When things are this scattered and disjointed it makes them harder to find for potential customers. Even a simple link from the book page to associated video instructions would greatly help IMO.

 

And yes, I know you are a WOman. lol ;)

[PeterPan]

Derek, that's weird, cuz the BJU site makes perfect sense to me. :D

[jer2911mom]

Kathy, I don't know your whole situation, but when I read your last post it made me think that what you're really talking about is more a frustration with planning and implementation. You had a great conceptual program (RS) but didn't like it. Do you think using the BJU *videos* would help you? That's why they're there, for moms who want it all done and need help getting there.

 

And yes, I think it's great any time you're doing math hands-on with a young child. Haven't used MUS. I decided to try Saxon K5 with my boy this year, just to be a bit wild and say I had, haha. :)

 

What does TT give that BJU doesn't? Uh, well TT gets DONE. No clue why I didn't try the BJU videos. Actually, I do. The new editions came out right as we were ready for them, and the videos are staggered a year off. So to do new edition, I have to teach it myself. TT has super short lessons, built-in spiral, lots of humor, and a thought process that gels with my dd. BJU doesn't have quite the same type of spiral, the lessons would be longer, and again it wasn't an option. We started with TT at the pre-algebra level. I don't know if I'll end up using those lower levels with ds to round out our approach. I used BJU at that age, yes with the supplemental things they sell. Yes, we use Flashmaster. Dd remembers it fondly. Now there are lots of apps. She's sorta clinical though. I'm just thankful we got to the other side, lol. It's the bad memory you try to forget, whew!

 

Make a practical plan that will actually get done.

 

I mainly didn't like RS because it felt like it had no flow to it. It was hard to tell where it was going and where we had been. It just felt really disjointed. I think I prefer a more obvious/traditional sequence. The lessons were too long as well. I don't mind teaching math and actually prefer it over using a video. But I don't want lessons to go on and on when they don't need to. I like that CLE is to the point. Lately it is too much to the point, where there just isn't enough teaching at all. But I like efficient programs and don't need a lot of fluff. I'm concerned that BJU may have some fluff to weed through with all the classroom verbage and info. about bulletin boards, etc. I want a manipulatives-based program that teaches concepts efficiently with a fairly traditional S&S.

 

I am also concerned if BJU will spiral "enough" compared to CLE. My dd doesn't need all the review in CLE, but going to a mastery program will be a change and hopefully it will have enough review. I like that CLE constantly reviews and think I would have really liked that when I was in school, but I wish CLE didn't have so much every day.

 

CLE gets done here, but I'm concerned about the conceptual side of it. That's why I've been supplementing with Singapore. But we just don't have time for two full programs like that, and I'm adding a Ker this year who is going to need most of my time. I'd really like to narrow this down to one program I can live with, and supplement as needed but not feel like I've got to be doing two full programs.

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[alisoncooks]

I am also concerned if BJU will spiral "enough" compared to CLE. My dd doesn't need all the review in CLE, but going to a mastery program will be a change and hopefully it will have enough review. I like that CLE constantly reviews and think I would have really liked that when I was in school, but I wish CLE didn't have so much every day.

Thanks,

Kathy

 

I like the amount of spiral in BJU. I know it's considered mastery, but I originally went to BJU b/c I was attracted to the constant review.

 

We started this year with Singapore and tried CLE along the way, so I have some *brief* experience with them all. :p There's been just enough review scattered throughout the lessons to keep things fresh for DD, but not having to do the same thing every day.

[PeterPan]

Kathy, then yes, it does sound like BJU works for that. When I used the elementary, they had a separate Reviews workbook. I'm not sure if they still sell that, but they also now have a cd in the tm that has extra things you print out. See when I did the elementary, which actually had *3* optional workbooks, if you can imagine. There was a spiral review book, a remedial book (remember, this is aimed at a school where maybe a kid really needs to review the prior year, having transferred in from another school), and a Stretch Your Mind challenging book. So I'm not sure what of those is now on the cd in the tm, but I think I've heard it has some of that content or all of it. Means you can do the base and just use the extra portions that you need.

 

I hear you on tm's being hard to work with sometimes. I got used to the BJU, so hopefully you can too. Some of that review you're talking about is done at the beginning of each lesson, so don't skip that. I think you'll fall into a groove and find it easy to teach. My friend who's using the new edition of the elementary math likes it a LOT. :)

[jer2911mom]

I like the amount of spiral in BJU. I know it's considered mastery, but I originally went to BJU b/c I was attracted to the constant review.

 

We started this year with Singapore and tried CLE along the way, so I have some *brief* experience with them all. :p There's been just enough review scattered throughout the lessons to keep things fresh for DD, but not having to do the same thing every day.

 

Thanks, Allison. I'm glad to hear the amount of review in BJU is working for you guys.

 

Kathy

[jer2911mom]

Kathy, then yes, it does sound like BJU works for that. When I used the elementary, they had a separate Reviews workbook. I'm not sure if they still sell that, but they also now have a cd in the tm that has extra things you print out. See when I did the elementary, which actually had *3* optional workbooks, if you can imagine. There was a spiral review book, a remedial book (remember, this is aimed at a school where maybe a kid really needs to review the prior year, having transferred in from another school), and a Stretch Your Mind challenging book. So I'm not sure what of those is now on the cd in the tm, but I think I've heard it has some of that content or all of it. Means you can do the base and just use the extra portions that you need.

 

I hear you on tm's being hard to work with sometimes. I got used to the BJU, so hopefully you can too. Some of that review you're talking about is done at the beginning of each lesson, so don't skip that. I think you'll fall into a groove and find it easy to teach. My friend who's using the new edition of the elementary math likes it a LOT. :)

 

Thanks, OhElizabeth. I'm hearing good things about the new editions from a lot of people. I'm sure with time I could get into a rhythm with the TM. They still sell the reviews book but the key is on the CD now. They have stopped printing the Stretch Your Mind book, but from what I understand the CD does offer enrichment activities. I really appreciate all your insights!

 

Kathy

[jer2911mom]

BJU still sells Reviews books for every revised level except Kinder. I bought the 2nd grade one but not the 7th grade one. That book has lots more problems. i would have a riot telling my olders to do more.

 

We switched from CLE after Son 2 told me he could do the math but had no idea why or how it worked. CLE doesn't go into that much. It becomes very rote, plug in the formula, get the right answer.

 

Also, making 10, near doubles, and all the rest of those tricks are not needed by some kids to memorize the facts. It irritates them. Son 1 is this way. It confused him to death to have so many choices. Some kids need just one consistant way to solve a problem. I think all kids need to know why and how the math works, though.

 

Thanks for the info. How does the 7th grade book compare to CLE in terms of numbers of problems?

 

I think what I want is just exposure to the making 10, near doubles, etc., so they at least know that is an option. Making 10s comes in handy with larger numbers, too, so it's a good skill to have.

[dereksurfs]

Thanks for the info. How does the 7th grade book compare to CLE in terms of numbers of problems?

 

I think what I want is just exposure to the making 10, near doubles, etc., so they at least know that is an option. Making 10s comes in handy with larger numbers, too, so it's a good skill to have.

 

 

jer2911mom, since CLE works for you at least in part have you considered using it *with* BJU? It seems like all math programs have their strengths/weaknesses including the most 'popular' programs of the day such as SM, etc... That's where supplementing helps us. Our dds love CLE after starting with MUS which they both really disliked. They would not be happy at all with a switch during these elementary years. However we want to provide them with other perspectives on things like more challenging word problems. So we are adding in MM. For early algebraic concepts we're also using HOE. Maybe we'll consider BJU for pre-A. But at this stage I don't feel the need for wholesale changes. Though I know this is different for different families.

[jer2911mom]

jer2911mom, since CLE works for you at least in part have you considered using it *with* BJU? It seems like all math programs have their strengths/weaknesses including the most 'popular' programs of the day such as SM, etc... That's where supplementing helps us. Our dds love CLE after starting with MUS which they both really disliked. They would not be happy at all with a switch during these elementary years. However we want to provide them with other perspectives on things like more challenging word problems. So we are adding in MM. For early algebraic concepts we're also using HOE. Maybe we'll consider BJU for pre-A. But at this stage I don't feel the need for wholesale changes. Though I know this is different for different families.

 

Hi Derek, I think it would be harder to use CLE and BJU than to just continue using CLE and Singapore. Singapore is not as cumbersome as BJU. BJU is a much fuller program than Singapore, so doing CLE and BJU would mean doing two very full programs. The thought has crossed my mind that we may just need to continue our combo somehow. I may need to switch to where Singapore is the main program and CLE is the supplement. It would involve crossing out a lot of CLE. I just don't know if I want to continue using CLE because we keep running into lessons where the algorithm is taught without the conceptual explanation (e.g., borrowing across zeroes, borrowing across two numbers, etc.). I can add in the base 10 blocks and teach it the way I want to at this level, but as we get higher up I may not know how to teach it conceptually or even realize what is missing. That is my main concern with CLE at this point. If we were to hit it first in Singapore, that would help. That is what happened with multiplication and I much preferred Singapore's introduction to it than CLE's. But we are a bit behind in Singapore compared to CLE and are hitting more of the introductions in CLE rather than Singapore at this point. I'd really rather have one good program to work from and just supplement if at all possible. But it seems what I'm looking for is not on the market at this time. Thanks for your suggestion.

[dereksurfs]

Hi Derek, I think it would be harder to use CLE and BJU than to just continue using CLE and Singapore. Singapore is not as cumbersome as BJU. BJU is a much fuller program than Singapore, so doing CLE and BJU would mean doing two very full programs. The thought has crossed my mind that we may just need to continue our combo somehow. I may need to switch to where Singapore is the main program and CLE is the supplement. It would involve crossing out a lot of CLE. I just don't know if I want to continue using CLE because we keep running into lessons where the algorithm is taught without the conceptual explanation (e.g., borrowing across zeroes, borrowing across two numbers, etc.). I can add in the base 10 blocks and teach it the way I want to at this level, but as we get higher up I may not know how to teach it conceptually or even realize what is missing. That is my main concern with CLE at this point. If we were to hit it first in Singapore, that would help. That is what happened with multiplication and I much preferred Singapore's introduction to it than CLE's. But we are a bit behind in Singapore compared to CLE and are hitting more of the introductions in CLE rather than Singapore at this point. I'd really rather have one good program to work from and just supplement if at all possible. But it seems what I'm looking for is not on the market at this time. Thanks for your suggestion.

 

Yes, I know what you mean. OhElizabeth uses TT with BJU, but I don't see a lot of others doing mixtures with it. Maybe that has more to do with how full it is? I really don't know. For us AoPS is a very complete program at the Algebra level for ds11. But I still plan on using other resources with it such as TabletClass, just not yet. I think CLE is easier to supplement as is MUS because of their simple, straight forward nature. They are both designed as more independent programs as well vs. teacher intensive. I'm not sure if SM would be easy to supplement as it seems to require more time from the teacher. Have you looked at MM yet? Many seem to think it is similar to SM but easier to work with.

 

I agree with your original post in which you said "I'd rather keep a solid foundation and add mental math/word problems/critical thinking supplements as needed." That's pretty much where we are at.

 

Just out of curiosity what ages are your children and what do they think about all of these programs? Do they have any preferences? What about their learning styles?

[jer2911mom]

Yes, I know what you mean. OhElizabeth uses TT with BJU, but I don't see a lot of others doing mixtures with it. Maybe that has more to do with how full it is? I really don't know. For us AoPS is a very complete program at the Algebra level for ds11. But I still plan on using other resources with it such as TabletClass, just not yet. I think CLE is easier to supplement as is MUS because of their simple, straight forward nature. They are both designed as more independent as well vs. teacher intensive. I'm not sure if SM would be easy to supplement as it seems to require more time from the teacher. Have you looked at MM yet?

 

Just out of curiosity what ages are your children and what do they think about all of these programs? Do they have any preferences? What about their learning styles?

 

I think CLE would be easier to supplement than BJU as well, but you'd have to cut out some of the CLE problems, which I am currently doing. We did MUS Alpha this spring in about 3 weeks to shore up the concept of "making 10s". My dd loved it and said she would do it anytime, even over the summer, because it was "fun". So I've bought Beta and plan to either do it this summer or on Fridays next year. I think it's fairly easy to do an entire MUS lesson in 1 day. Since there are only 30 lessons, at most we would likely need 30 days. Sometimes we can double and triple them up.

 

My dd8 likes CLE and said she would like to continue it. She likes the little stories/themes. BJU has those, too, though. She seems to do well with spiral, which is what concerns me about going to mastery. We did a few weeks worth of R&S math in K and she hated doing the same thing for the whole lesson. She kept asking when we would get to time or money or something different and when I looked ahead, we wouldn't even be getting to those until spring! I need variety, too, so I know where she is coming from. The variety in CLE does suit her well and that is why I am concerned about making a mastery program our main program.

 

We tried MM in 1st grade and I felt like it expected them to know their facts too quickly and the pace wasn't right. I've heard it gets better after 1st. I have all 6 levels. When I look at it, my eyes glaze over. I can't figure out where the teaching is. We are both very visual and it just doesn't work well for either of us.

 

I think the easiest thing to supplement Singapore with would be MUS, which I've considered. I just don't think either of them lays the foundation as well as CLE early on. But lately CLE is driving me nuts with the conceptual teaching seeming to be diminishing. Let me ask you this, what levels are you using and does the conceptual teaching continue to go away? There was no base 10 work with the borrowing from hundreds, borrowing across zero, or borrowing twice lessons in the back half of 2nd grade. I just posted about this on the CLE Yahoo group to see if anyone can shed any light on this. It really has me concerned that they are already moving away from base 10 teaching in 2nd grade. What insights do you have on the levels above 200? It just feels like they did such a great job with place value early on and now they are getting lax and not reinforcing it anymore. Does this continue? I fear I won't even recognize other places where the conceptual teaching is lacking and not even realize what we are missing. This kind of happened already with the whole "making 10s" concept.

 

Also, can you tell me what strategies CLE teaches with mental math?

 

I have a dd8 and dd5. The dd8 seems to do well with the variety in a spiral program, like I mentioned. But she does really like MUS, too. I've also considered a CLE/MUS combo with her and adding Singapore CWP (maybe 2 problems a day) and possibly the mental math book as well. It seems like a lot, but maybe it's manageable. I still don't know that it would work because we are hitting the concepts first in CLE since MUS has such a different scope and sequence. We'd have to get a lot further along in MUS for the conceptual teaching to occur there first. I can't tell yet about the dd5. She will just be starting K this fall.

 

Thanks for your insights.

 

Kathy

[dereksurfs]

I think CLE would be easier to supplement than BJU as well, but you'd have to cut out some of the CLE problems, which I am currently doing. We did MUS Alpha this spring in about 3 weeks to shore up the concept of "making 10s". My dd loved it and said she would do it anytime, even over the summer, because it was "fun". So I've bought Beta and plan to either do it this summer or on Fridays next year. I think it's fairly easy to do an entire MUS lesson in 1 day. Since there are only 30 lessons, at most we would likely need 30 days. Sometimes we can double and triple them up.

 

My dd8 likes CLE and said she would like to continue it. She likes the little stories/themes. BJU has those, too, though. She seems to do well with spiral, which is what concerns me about going to mastery. We did a few weeks worth of R&S math in K and she hated doing the same thing for the whole lesson. She kept asking when we would get to time or money or something different and when I looked ahead, we wouldn't even be getting to those until spring! I need variety, too, so I know where she is coming from. The variety in CLE does suit her well and that is why I am concerned about making a mastery program our main program.

 

We tried MM in 1st grade and I felt like it expected them to know their facts too quickly and the pace wasn't right. I've heard it gets better after 1st. I have all 6 levels. When I look at it, my eyes glaze over. I can't figure out where the teaching is. We are both very visual and it just doesn't work well for either of us.

 

I think the easiest thing to supplement Singapore with would be MUS, which I've considered. I just don't think either of them lays the foundation as well as CLE early on. But lately CLE is driving me nuts with the conceptual teaching seeming to be diminishing. Let me ask you this, what levels are you using and does the conceptual teaching continue to go away? There was no base 10 work with the borrowing from hundreds, borrowing across zero, or borrowing twice lessons in the back half of 2nd grade. I just posted about this on the CLE Yahoo group to see if anyone can shed any light on this. It really has me concerned that they are already moving away from base 10 teaching in 2nd grade. What insights do you have on the levels above 200? It just feels like they did such a great job with place value early on and now they are getting lax and not reinforcing it anymore. Does this continue? I fear I won't even recognize other places where the conceptual teaching is lacking and not even realize what we are missing. This kind of happened already with the whole "making 10s" concept.

 

Also, can you tell me what strategies CLE teaches with mental math?

 

I have a dd8 and dd5. The dd8 seems to do well with the variety in a spiral program, like I mentioned. But she does really like MUS, too. I've also considered a CLE/MUS combo with her and adding Singapore CWP (maybe 2 problems a day) and possibly the mental math book as well. It seems like a lot, but maybe it's manageable. I still don't know that it would work because we are hitting the concepts first in CLE since MUS has such a different scope and sequence. We'd have to get a lot further along in MUS for the conceptual teaching to occur there first. I can't tell yet about the dd5. She will just be starting K this fall.

 

Thanks for your insights.

 

Kathy

 

 

Kathy,

 

I've highlighted the points you've made which I think are key. Our dds are very similar in that CLE's gentle spiral combined with the little stories fit them like a glove. Neither dd liked math when we started them with MUS which we used all the way through Zeta and Pre-A with ds11. They are just wired differently and the endless repetition of mastery was not working at all for them. All children are different. That is why I asked you about yours. As parents its easy to consider all of the theoretical reasons why one program may be superior to another. But for a child it's much simpler. That's where the tailoring aspect comes in through adjusting some combination which works best for them, gets done and they may even enjoy a little. ;)

 

In answer to your questions about CLE I had to consult with my dw since she is the one who instructs them during the day. I help out at night with things they sometimes need another perspective on. This is more needed with the AoPS stuff which is much harder math than the elementary years. dw said not to worry. CLE 300 picks up where 200 left off with base 10 again. Keep in mind that because of its spiral nature CLE goes back over previously taught concepts and reinforces them in subsequent lessons. This can span years as well vs. a mastery program which finishes a concept, then moves on. She said they also go over mental math as well, though didn't recall the strategies off the top of her head.

 

I like that combo you are thinking about with CLE, MUS and CWP. It gives you some freedom to work with things tried and true with your dds along with plenty of room for tailoring and flexibility as they grow. The fact they they like MUS is a plus. Since its mastery I would stagger it behind possibly a year, similar to what ppl recommend with CWP. With CLE you can also skip some of the review and 'test out' if you think they already get it. That's easy to do. In fact there was a whole thread on that, talking about certain Light Units which could be skipped depending on the child's retention. In that way you could accelerate CLE and have more time for supplementals as needed.

 

IMO, there is a fine line between fretting over our programs being 'good enough' and wanting to supplement, etc... to add in additional challenges, perspectives, concepts, etc... This is especially true on a forum such as this where we hear about so many different, supposedly wonderful programs. I would encourage you to not worry excessively about this when you find things which work and your dds are learning math. Fill in gaps if/when need be. But switching to that next best thing doesn't always work better for the child. Finding a happy medium or balance is really key and then rest in your decision. SM, AoPS or whatever that 'latest, greatest conceptual, wonderful math program happening now' is really isn't all its cracked up to be, especially if a poorer fit for child and parents vs. the next family who rave over it. Each child is different and as such no one size fits all. :)

[jer2911mom]

Kathy,

 

I've highlighted the points you've made which I think are key. Our dds are very similar in that CLE's gentle spiral combined with the little stories fit them like a glove. Neither dd liked math when we started them with MUS which we used all the way through Zeta and Pre-A with ds11. They are just wired differently and the endless repetition of mastery was not working at all for them. All children are different. That is why I asked you about yours. As parents its easy to consider all of the theoretical reasons why one program may be superior to another. But for a child it's much simpler. That's where the tailoring aspect comes in through adjusting some combination which works best for them, gets done and they may even enjoy a little. ;)

 

In answer to your questions about CLE I had to consult with my dw since she is the one who instructs them during the day. I help out at night with things they sometimes need another perspective on. This is more needed with the AoPS stuff which is much harder math than the elementary years. dw said not to worry. CLE 300 picks up where 200 left off with base 10 again. Keep in mind that because of its spiral nature CLE goes back over previously taught concepts and reinforces them in subsequent lessons. This can span years as well vs. a mastery program which finishes a concept, then moves on. She said they also go over mental math as well, though didn't recall the strategies off the top of her head.

 

I like that combo you are thinking about with MUS and CWP. It gives you some freedom to work with things tried and true with your dds along with plenty of room for tailoring and flexibility as they grow. The fact they they like MUS is a plus. Since its mastery I would stagger it behind possibly a year, similar to what ppl recommend with CWP. With CLE you can also skip some of the review and 'test out' if you think they already get it. That's easy to do. In fact there was a whole thread on that, talking about certain Light Units which could be skipped depending on the child's retention. In that way you could accelerate CLE and have more time for supplementals as needed.

 

IMO, there is a fine line between fretting over our programs being 'good enough' and wanting to supplement, etc... to add in additional challenges, perspectives, concepts, etc... This is especially true on a forum such as this where we hear about so many different, supposedly wonderful programs. I would encourage you to not worry excessively about this when you find things which work and your dds are learning math. Fill in gaps if/when need be. But switching to that next best thing doesn't always work better for the child. Finding a happy medium or balance is really key and then rest in your decision. SM, AoPS or whatever that 'latest, greatest conceptual, wonderful math program happening now' is really isn't all its cracked up to be, especially if a poorer fit for child and parents vs. the next family who rave over it. Each child is different and as such no one size fits all. :)

 

Thanks, Derek. My CLE 300 has arrived and I have only started to look through it. I will look to see if the teaching is any more conceptual. CLE is known for only teaching a concept once and then moving on and not really coming back to the conceptual teaching again. What my problem was with these 200 examples I mentioned was that the first instance of those topics being introduced had no conceptual teaching at all. So even though they will likely show up again in 300, I would be surprised if they had any conceptual teaching since the first time around had none. It was honestly non-existent and just taught the algorithm.

 

I know CLE has mental math in it, but it seems like it is more of the form of long strings of numbers to manipulate in your head. What I didn't see much of in the LUs I looked at while I was at convention was actual strategies being taught. There are a few basic ones early on like add 2 + 6 in 20 + 60 and 200 + 600, but I'm not seeing anything really helpful. I saw one place where they were basically telling you to picture borrowing in your head, and I didn't care for that one.

 

The thing about MUS is that it already is behind in a lot of ways as far as S&S, so in order for it to help with conceptual teaching I actually need to accelerate it. But I don't think that will be hard since we have already covered a lot of ground between CLE and Singapore.

 

I do have a plan with CLE to consolidate it to a lot fewer days. I would skip all quizzes and accelerate or skip the 1st LU. I think there is a review day I would skip as well. That would leave time for a Fri. supplement.

 

My main concern about not using Singapore is that I do think the approach is very good. I am so thankful we were introduced to multiplication in Singapore before CLE. Singapore just does a better job of presenting the concepts. I see where CLE is cutting corners. I do think CLE did a great job with place value in 1st though, and I liked it better than Singapore 1A and B, to be honest. What I need is a program that has the incremental nature, spiraling, and facts practice of CLE but the conceptual teaching of Singapore. I think a lot of people are looking for this program and it doesn't seem to exist. I may just have to keep this combo going.

 

So is your ds doing well with AoPS after only using MUS? Do you think your dds using CLE will be able to use AoPS?

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[dereksurfs]

...

So is your ds doing well with AoPS after only using MUS? Do you think your dds using CLE will be able to use AoPS?

 

Thanks,

Kathy

 

Kathy, when they were younger I think I worried about some of this stuff a bit more. But as I've watched ds11 develop cognitively through the elementary years I am not as concerned now. I do recall while going through MUS questioning if we should have done SM or something else more popular, trendy, conceptual, rigorous, etc... But MUS really seemed to work for him. He liked it and so I supplemented a bit and stayed the course. I'm glad I did because it worked well. I think you can take a similar child and have them struggle all the way through a program like SM, take longer, and wind up with less in the end because its a poor fit. The child's own development and ability to adapt and learn I think gets underplayed far too much while 'the ultimate math curriculum' gets elevated above what it really deserves. IMO, fit is more important as is helping them along the way at each stage of development - meeting them where they are at.

 

I must admit that MUS was a bit on the 'easy side' for ds11 and that is probably why I questioned it most. After reading The Calculus Trap by Richard Rusczyk I really felt ds11 was ready for more challenge. Though I wasn't so gung ho on the whole AoPS, conceptual, discovery, blah, blah fanfare which most were touting at the time. So that is when I decided we were going to step things up once ds11 finished MUS Zeta and part of Pre-A just to cover some S&S gaps (negative numbers, etc...). We moved to TabletClass Pre-Algebra next which really stretched ds11 more than any other program prior. He learned to wrestle with abstract algebraic concepts and to accept that its ok to not always get 100% with ease. We also supplemented with AoPS and Khan during the most challenging parts of the course to gain differing perspectives. I would say after all that training the first 4 chapters of AoPS have been pretty smooth sailing though rigorous of course. He's ok with wrestling over more complex, difficult problems now. That took time to develop and a different approach than starting with AoPS Pre-A.

 

With regards to my dds it's really too early to say. I don't think they are as naturally gifted as ds11 in math. But who knows, only time will tell if we use AoPS with them or not. I'll certainly introduce it and at a minimum use it as supplemental for challenging problems. I don't want them taking 'Easy Street' for math even if they may be more into the language arts or other areas of interest. But they don't have to use AoPS if its not a good fit. I may explore BJU math with them also. I like having a variety of sources to pull from to find what works best.

[jer2911mom]

Thanks, Derek. I really appreciate your explaining how you went from MUS to AoPS. Thanks for all your insights in this thread, too.