Knock kneed pigeon toed

[OrganicAnn]

Also called "in toeing"

 

Our pediatrician says there is nothing we can do about it. We even consulted an orthopedic doctor who said there is nothing we can do about it. So I accepted that. Yet last week our VT optometrist said that there was things that helps some kids.

 

So I wonder if there are other specialties (OT, PT or whatever) that have some opinions on the subject and if there is anything that can be done. Give me your best Hive wisdom.

 

Thanks.

 

ETA: DD is 9

[Rosie_0801]

You might show xrays to a chiro. I don't know whether they can always fix those issues, but they can some of the time.

[klmama]

Boston Children's Hospital's site has some info. http://www.childrenshospital.org/az/Site1103/mainpageS1103P0.html

 

 

[Ellie]

Also called "in toeing"

 

Our pediatrician says there is nothing we can do about it. We even consulted an orthopedic doctor who said there is nothing we can do about it. So I accepted that. Yet last week our VT optometrist said that there was things that helps some kids.

 

So I wonder if there are other specialties (OT, PT or whatever) that have some opinions on the subject and if there is anything that can be done. Give me your best Hive wisdom.

 

Thanks.

 

Mr. Ellie was born with his feet facing in--very, very pigeon-toed, bless his heart. He slept with a big ol' bar separating his feet for I don't know how long. His podiatrist told his parents to let him go barefooted as much as possible (which wasn't hard, as he grew up in San Diego); he wore special shoes until he was in high school, and then he had to wear lace-up shoes of some kind with special inserts. And--this was probably the best thing--he took roller skating lessons for 10 years...you cannot toe-in if you're roller skating, KWIM? :-) Today his feet are *absolutely* straight.

 

My younger dd toed-in slightly, and she W-sat, that is, with her knees together and her feet out, instead of "Indian style." Her pediatrician checked her out and said it was internal femoral torsion, and that weight bearing would straighten it out. I took her to a pediatric orthopedist outside of our medical practice who told me the same thing. When she was 5, she took ballet, then Scottish Highland dance for 9 years, then back to ballet. The ballet really helped the torsion, but she is still slightly knock-kneed (although there's no pigeon-toe going on), and would never be a professional dancer because the turn-out required is very difficult for her.

 

So I'm thinking that you might check into roller skating, and maybe ballet (other forms of dance don't necessarily have the same stretching and turn-out that ballet does).

[MomtoCandJ]

Well there are special shoes for it, my dad had those. I think you need to little to wear those though. I, on the other hand, haven't had anything done about mine. I have pretty much trained myself to pay attention to how I walk so that I can point my feet correctly. But that hurts after a while and can make your shoes wear funny. I was also told as an adult that they could break my ankles and have them set straight. I'm not going to willingly break my ankles but they are weak so I'm just waiting for a klutz moment ( which are frequent)

[Mabeline]

Mine were like that as a kid and when I was about 9 or 10 another kid pointed it out to me. After that I made a point to turn my feet straight forward and after a year or so it became habit. My feet point forward now.

 

My oldest son's left foot turns in too. I have been trying to remind him to point it straight but I don't think he has enough incentive to remember.

 

I think you can fix it yourself sometimes. I do know that my feet and ankles have gotten stronger using my "barefoot" shoes to jog in. I have the Merrill's without individual toes. I also have flat feet and I have noticed an improvement in my feet.

[OrganicAnn]

Thank you all. I knew that the Hive would have various experience and information that would at least give me something to think about. We have a good friend who is a Chiro, so we'll ask him. I think it is a muscle torsion issue. So we may try some exercise. I don't think ballet is a real option, but roller skating would be fun (ice skating too I guess).

 

Thanks so much.

 

Ann

[Ellie]

Well there are special shoes for it, my dad had those. I think you need to little to wear those though. I, on the other hand, haven't had anything done about mine. I have pretty much trained myself to pay attention to how I walk so that I can point my feet correctly. But that hurts after a while and can make your shoes wear funny. I was also told as an adult that they could break my ankles and have them set straight. I'm not going to willingly break my ankles but they are weak so I'm just waiting for a klutz moment ( which are frequent)

 

My mil insisted that my dd needed to have high-top shoes from Stride Rite. She even took dd into a store one time to get an "expert" opinion. :001_rolleyes: By that time I had already taken dd to the orthopedic specialist, who had pointed out that dd's problem was in her hips, not in her feet, and that shoes wouldn't do a thing to correct her toeing in. It was, BTW, one of only two times that I told off mil. :glare:

 

My generation (baby boomers) was the generation of the high-top shoes that were considered vital to children's being able to learn to walk correctly. That thinking hung on for a long time. High top shoes wouldn't have helped either Mr. Ellie or my dd. I wore them, and I still have a slight pronation. Of course, I think they're very cute, lol, but neither of my dc wore them (much to my mil's dismay, even though her own son didn't wear them because the podiatrist knew they wouldn't help Mr. Ellie).

[Jen in NY]

One of my dd's has knees and feet that turn in naturally, and when she was dancing competitively we visited a PT that works almost exclusively with dancers a few times to get advice about exercises that would improve her turnout. They had a number of stretching suggestions and when she was doing them regularly her turnout definitely improved. It seems like it would be something she would have to do continually to maintain.

[texasmama]

In years past, many kids were treated for intoeing with shoes connected by a bar. I was, as it was common practice at the time. Experience showed that most kids' intoeing self-corrected in time.

 

How old is your dd?

 

My experience and thoughts are colored by the fact that my youngest dd was born with bilateral clubfoot. She also has some hip issues which are not correctable or in need of correction. Her anatomy is just a bit different. A good orthopedic doctor can check for hip rotation, which can cause intoeing. All of my dd's hip rotation is internal rather than both internal and external. However, she is well able to do any activity she wants to so this is not a problem. My dd saw a podiatrist who specializes in non surgical treatment of clubfoot so he was quite familiar with these issues.

 

Enough rambling...what to do? If your dd is young, I think it could likely self-correct and I would give it time and activity. If she is older, then I would probably take her to another pediatric orthopedic doctor and be certain to ask about hip rotation. If that doc says that there is nothing to be concerned about, I would not be concerned.

 

You can also look into physiotherapy, which can provide some stretching exercises. I still occasionally do stretching exercises with my dd's feet. She likes how it feels and asks for them. :) Kids' feet are much more malleable than adults' feet.

[Ellie]

One of my dd's has knees and feet that turn in naturally, and when she was dancing competitively we visited a PT that works almost exclusively with dancers a few times to get advice about exercises that would improve her turnout. They had a number of stretching suggestions and when she was doing them regularly her turnout definitely improved. It seems like it would be something she would have to do continually to maintain.

 

 

We did that, as well. Dancer dd still does those exercises 20 years later because they help tremendously.

[KungFuPanda]

A well-known bellydancer, Suhaila Solimpour, has scoliosis and feet and legs that turn in. Intensive dance studies helped her tremendously. She reports that if she gets out of shape, her feet try to turn in again so she has to keep up with the work.

 

Here's a little snippet of an interview:

 

 

K: Tell us about overcoming the obstacle of scoliosis.

 

S: When I was born, I had a sway back and I was extremely pigeon-toed. I couldn't even walk without tripping over my own feet! We went to all kinds of doctors. I had a hip brace with metal bars that ran down the sides of my legs and special shoes. I remember laying in bed for hours wearing this contraption feeling completely miserable. Nothing helped. Then when I was about 6 or 7, Mom threw me into a ballet class. That was the only thing that ever helped. To this day, if I let myself get out of shape, my right foot will still turn in.

 

[Coco_Clark]

My legs were braced as a small child. I HATED IT. Then on to special shoes. Now my feet are straight but I really envy kids these days...they are allowed to just grow out of it. And they do!

[Jen in NY]

My legs were braced as a small child. I HATED IT. Then on to special shoes. Now my feet are straight but I really envy kids these days...they are allowed to just grow out of it. And they do!

 

 

Hmmmm.... I'd have to say that in our case, she didn't grow out of it, even with dance training. : (

For a couple of years, dd wore special shoes, for a while - even while sleeping, and we elected not to go for braces.

 

I sorta wish we had done the braces ... maybe it wouldn't be so pronounced now. (It's pretty severe... her preferred posture is standing with her toes in 'inside out 5th position'... toes pointing in, feet perfectly side to side. *rolls eyes*

 

I am worried that it will cause back and knee problems later on...

[gingersmom]

I would get a new pediatrician.

 

I was pigeon toed and I think when I was a baby in the crib they used one of those metal contraptions.

 

I can remember being 10 and very self conscious about it. We went to a doctor who said I would have to wear special orthopedic shoes. That was not going to happen.

 

I practiced and practiced walking with my feet correctly. I think I was around 12 when it was no longer an issue.

[Coco_Clark]

 

 

Hmmmm.... I'd have to say that in our case, she didn't grow out of it, even with dance training. : (

For a couple of years, dd wore special shoes, for a while - even while sleeping, and we elected not to go for braces.

 

I sorta wish we had done the braces ... maybe it wouldn't be so pronounced now. (It's pretty severe... her preferred posture is standing with her toes in 'inside out 5th position'... toes pointing in, feet perfectly side to side. *rolls eyes*

 

I am worried that it will cause back and knee problems later on...

 

I know it can require a lot of practice and constant self training, it doesn't just go away. But wearing braces (and being teased for wearing braces) is now the definitive memory of my early childhood :/. I suspect left alone I would have self corrected by adulthood, but I know that's not a given. Always brighter on the other side, isn't it? :)

[OrganicAnn]

My DD is 9. The Ped said that with development some kids self correct or grow out of it by 8. So at 8, I said 'well she hasn't grown and that is when we went to see the Othopedic Doc. Her in toeing in not severe, but you do notice at times. They did check her hips and even x-ray them.

 

What sort of exercises did the PT do?

[Ellie]

I would get a new pediatrician.

 

 

Well, maybe not a new pediatrician, but go see a specialist.

[OrganicAnn]

Well, maybe not a new pediatrician, but go see a specialist.

 

What type of specialist? If a child did not have a severe in toeing, would that matter?

[Ellie]

 

What type of specialist? If a child did not have a severe in toeing, would that matter?

 

 

An orthopedic specialist. Yes, it would matter *to me* if my child's mild toe-in could be corrected if we started early enough.

[Swimtaxi234]

My son was born with his toes pointed in so much that it made learning to walk difficult.

 

We also had a Ped doctor give us poor medical advice, but thankfully we moved to a new base and got a new doctor who asked if we wanted to explore other options. He sent us to a specialized physical therapist who discovered that my son's hips were turned inward and that it wasn't a foot problem at all. With this info, even the surgeon agreed to us working exclusively with the Manual PT (pretty rare to find 10 years ago).

 

My son visited the M-PT twice a week for 18 months (from age 3-4.5 years old) and his feet are almost perfectly straight now without surgeries or metal bars.

[Element]

I'm another mom whose daughter would supposedly "grow out of it."** She'll be 8 tomorrow and it hasn't happened yet! I would second the PP's suggestions to 1.) get her in dance class and 2.) talk to a physical therapist. She may grow out of it, she may not, but you can give her the tools to strengthen those muscles. Dd started ballet at the same time she started pt, so I'm not sure which one was key to helping her, but the combo seems to be a win. She still really struggles with ballet and is in a class with kids 2 and 3 years younger than she, but it's enough to make a difference in her regular day-to-day activities.

 

**ETA: The technical terms for the "it" she would supposedly "grow out of" were femoral anteversion and internal tibial torsion. She is mildly knock-kneed and pigeon-toed on one side.

[OrganicAnn]

 

 

An orthopedic specialist. Yes, it would matter *to me* if my child's mild toe-in could be corrected if we started early enough.

 

 

Sorry if I'm being dense, but we did see an orthopedic doctor. Is the a specific type of orthopedic doctor? Specializing in what? Or should we go to a 2nd orthopedic doctor for a 2nd opinion? The one we went to seemed very competent and not a bit dismissive.