"Your boyfriend is a manipulative loser!!"

[shinyhappypeople]

*PLEASE DON'T QUOTE, I MAY DELETE/EDIT DETAILS LATER*

 

(1) I need a nicer way to phrase that.

(2) Perhaps I should say nothing at all.

 

My 20 yo niece is super sweet and a wonderful person. We adore her. She has not had many boyfriends. She's insecure and has a low self-esteem. I think she struggles with depression. She was raised not knowing her father (even his name) and her mom has a mental illness that was not well-treated until Niece was a teenager. I think all this makes her particularly vulnerable, and it makes me particularly protective of her.

 

The guy she's with now is her first serious relationship. They've been together 6 months or so. He is in his early-20s. Not in school. Not working (oh, wait, I forgot, he's "in a band" with all the income that *doesn't* bring). Whatever. Lest anyone think I'm down on young guys in bands, my DH was in a successful band in his 20s, in a "niche" genre, and he worked full- and part-time at other jobs the entire time, because it's hard to actually make money playing music, even when people like you. He worked HARD because he is (and was) a mature person who pays his own way.

 

Anyway, I've seen Boyfriend briefly exactly ONCE and he seemed superficially nice but a little off, but I couldn't put my finger on what was "off" about him. So, I decided to reserve judgment.

 

Had a big family party (grad party for another niece) at my parents' house last weekend. I told my step-dad that I was happy to run to the store if he needed me to pick up any last minute stuff. Step-dad said no. Boyfriend overheard it.

 

I go out to my car to get something out. Boyfriend follows me and assumes I'm going to the store. He asks if I'll buy him a pack of cigarettes. I tell him I don't mind running to the store and picking them up, just give me the money and I'll go do that for him. Boyfriend looks all sheepish and says he doesn't have any money, and will I buy them for him?

 

It takes effort, but I do not laugh out loud. I just politely tell him no. Had the conversation ended there, I'd chalk it up to appallingly bad manners (or just immaturity) and wouldn't be writing this.

 

But, boyfriend continues to speak.

 

"I've been smoking since I was eight." I make appropriate sympathetic noises. He continues. "I had $36,000 last year but that's all gone now, and got up to a 3 pack a day habit, but now I'm down to one pack a day because I don't have any more money, and, man, my lungs really hurt right now, and... and... " blah, blah, blah.

 

Me: "Smoking is a tough habit to quit, but I'm not going to buy you cigarettes."

 

Boyfriend: sulks and walks away.

 

Me: stunned. The little jerk was just trying to manipulate me with his sob story so I'd buy him cigarettes.

 

No. No-no-no-no-no. No guy worth dating would be that pathetic.

 

My niece doesn't know he did this (unless he told her, which I doubt). Do I tell her about what went down? Do I stay quiet and hope to heaven that she dumps him before anything permanent results from this relationship?

 

DH about DIED when I told him what Boyfriend pulled. He thinks Boyfriend has the personality of an alcoholic and Niece should steer clear. But, she is SO flipping naive about this stuff. I want to say something, but I also don't want to make her view me as the enemy and drive her back into Boyfriend's arms.

 

So, would you say anything? Since dating this guy Niece has dropped out of college and isn't even looking for work. He hasn't exactly been inspiring her to greatness. She's devolving and becoming like him.

[Catwoman]

Tell her.

 

It might not do a bit of good, but it might start to put a little chink in the guy's shining armor.

 

He sounds like a complete loser. I mean, seriously, who does that??? :eek:

 

He's a fully grown adult man, and he's asking you to buy his cigarettes for him??? I wonder if he also hangs around outside liquor stores and asks people to buy him beer. :rolleyes:

[Liz CA]

It may be better to let her discover it by herself with a little "pointing in that direction" by you.

If this is his MO, he will do it again and it was not the first time he has done things like it not to mention other immature responses.

Perhaps you can sort of, gently, mention what maturity and responsibility look like - even tell about your dh and his band days, etc.

She will probably be able to see the difference. What she will do with that knowledge is a whole other ball of wax.

 

Sorry, it's hard to watch these things without wanting to fix it on the spot.

[Slipper]

I think if you say something, it will drive her away. In your shoes, I could see myself taking my niece out to lunch and maybe a shopping trip to buy a new outfit or something. Over lunch, while talking, I'd steer the conversation to boyfriend and at some point just say, "I don't know that he's the right person for you, but if you're happy, I'm happy for you. If you ever need someone though, please know I'm here and on your side. Dessert?"

 

The only other thing I might do would be to try to involve her in activities where I know other people would be present. Same age peers have no hesitation about declaring someone a jerk and same age boys might be distracting.

 

At some point, you have to step back, watch them fall and be there to pick them up.

[Cera]

I would focus on niece and not the boyfriend. Take her out to lunch and talk to her about what her plans are. Tell her she appears to be floundering and you would like to help her. Does she want to go back to school? Work? What are her goals and how can you help her achieve them.

 

Also, make sure she knows that you love her and will be available if she ever needs help in the future. You don't want her to wind up stuck with the loser because she feels like she doesn't have anywhere to go or way to get out.

[abacus2]

I wouldn't make overall judgement statements about him, but I would tell her what happened. Then maybe steer the conversation more generally toward how she is doing, if he treats her well, etc.

[Joanne]

Please, engage with her. Give her information abo7t him, life, addiction. She needs education about these things and mental health issues.

[jhschool]

Don't say he is a manipulative loser!

 

Do tell the story to your niece. Objectively.

 

Say,

 

"X asked me to buy some cigarettes. I said 'Sure, do you have money?'

X said 'No, will you buy them for me?' I said 'No.' He told me 'I've been smoking

since I was 8. I had $36K last year. I have no money now.' I said 'I won't buy

you cigarettes.'"

 

Then end your story with, "I just wanted to let you know, Niece."

And then say NOTHING.

 

Nothing AT ALL.

 

Because that story speaks for itself.

[gardenmom5]

you want her to come to the conclusion that he's a manipulative loser on her own - if you tell her that, she won't listen to anything.

 

help her to retrain her thinking instead.

 

what about him makes you a better person?

what kind of person would you like to be? (how does he support that?)

what does he do that will enable him to comfortably support a family?

how does he handle his money?

what does he do to make you feel special? (and of worth, validated, etc.)

what do you think a man *should* do to make his significant other feel special?

what things has he done in his life that he would like to go back and do differently? how would he do them differently?

 

anyway, those types of questions that will hopefully force her to be a bit more objective about him. depending upon answers, you can get her to expound. you can also correct her misconceptions about such things as: someone who has blown $36K and has nothing to show for it doesn't have a clue about how to handle money. (and how does he feel about having nothing to show for it? does he regret blowing it? or would he do it again?)

 

you can also ask HIM those questions in front of her.

 

then see if you can encourage her to do something about the depression.

[Guest inoubliable]

You *could* say something. I'm thinking it won't go very far and you'd probably push her away. She's already clinging to this guy and basing life decision around him (leaving school). She's 20? Hard to step back and watch someone make life decisions that you feel are bad, but they *are* her decisions. Be there for her (appropriately) when she needs you, but let her learn how she wants to run her life.

[jhschool]

oops i sort of quoted. if you delete pm me and i will delete too.

[lynn]

You can telll her because you love her but she probably won't listen to you. I begged my niece after after having an idiot boyfriend to please be choosy who she dates and to make sure minimum they have a car and are working full time. A high school diploma is good but I understand that "High school is not for everyone" and some kids just get GED and tech school. It frustrates me that girls settle and get into bad relationships.

[hillfarm]

I would say to her, "Sorry if I upset X the other day. He asked me to go buy him some cigarettes and that he didn't have any money to pay for them. I hesitated and he told me about how he had money from last year but it was all gone now. I still didn't feel good about contributing to something that is so bad for his health. I hope you're not mad, I want the best for you guys."

 

Then in a separate conversation on another day I would ask her about whether she was going to go back to college or what her plans were. I would be encouraging and mention something about how it can be hard to make hard choices that you know are good for you at her age, but from personal experience you can say that it really does pay off and is worth it in the end. Perhaps focus on the college/career thing, but make enough open ended statements that she can perhaps later apply it to relationships also.

 

Build her up so that she has the strength to decide for herself whether to keep this guy in her life. That way, she will remember you as an encourager not a critic. Also help her meet plenty of other, nice guys. Not in a matchmaker kind of way, but with the intent to broaden her circle of friendships so that she can see that not all guys act like X and that she doesn't have to put up with him if she doesn't want to do so.

[stripe]

I have a relative who's been married for decades to a guy that does stuff like this. He has plenty of money but just likes to get other people to pay for his soda or coffee. If you think it's unattractive in a twenty year old, imagine in a 60 year old.

[Katy]

hmmm... if this were my brother's kids (who I am not close to), I might tell the story to them or I might not. If it were my sister's kids (who I am very close to), I would tell them immediately. How close are you to this girl?

[Remudamom]

I'd use your title, tell her about the incident and let her know you are there for her when she needs you.

[Word Nerd]

I don't know. I might share the incident, but I wouldn't expect it to have any effect based on personal experience. My niece's ex-boyfriend is a felon and a sociopath. She didn't listen to any of the many warnings and heartfelt expressions of concern that adults andher own same-age friends gave her before he ended up in jail. Now that he is out (for the time being, anyway—I'm sure it's only a matter of time before he breaks parole) she is scared and wishes she had listened a lot sooner. They're likely going to have to get a restraining order.

[Catwoman]

I don't know. I might share the incident, but I wouldn't expect it to have any effect based on personal experience. My niece's ex-boyfriend is a felon and a sociopath. She didn't listen to any of the many warnings and heartfelt expressions of concern that adults andher own same-age friends gave her before he ended up in jail. Now that he is out (for the time being, anyway—I'm sure it's only a matter of time before he breaks parole) she is scared and wishes she had listened a lot sooner. They're likely going to have to get a restraining order.

 

 

Wow, that's awful!!! :(

[Harriet Vane]

Talk to her.

 

Whether or not it has any effect on her is immaterial. She can choose what to do with the information, but she is at a disadvantage in evaluating this relationship if no one speaks up.

[Little Nyssa]

I think I would try to arrange events where she and he are present together with a lot of other people. Then she can see how other people react to him, and how he behaves. If she is very isolated, just him and her, a lot of the time, he may be rather controlling and she may get to think that the way he behaves is really OK. Other people can be a reality check and she can see how he looks from aside. I would spend time with her alone too as PPs have noted.

[Melissa in Australia]

I would tell her exactly what happened EXACTLY as it happened.

[Rebecca VA]

That poor girl needs someone to step in and tell her some plain truths her mother might not be able to say. If she is naive and poorly brought up, she needs to hear things expressed bluntly, though gently. Even if she doesn't seem accepting of what you have to tell her, she will think about it. You don't ever want her to say, "If only I'd known...if only someone had warned me."

[J-rap]

I really doubt telling her that story will change how she feels about him. She probably already knows what he's like, but at least he is someone, and she maybe feels he's the best she will get.

 

Are you close to her? I'd maybe schedule time to sit down with her and talk about her. Talk about her life, and how you'd love to help her set some goals. Help her brainstorm ways of reaching them. Both short-term and long-term goals. Help her put together lists of things that will help her achieve them and things that will keep her from achieving them.

 

It sounds like she has no direction but is just a lost soul who thinks she needs someone in her life to patch up all of her problems and help her loneliness.

 

If you can help her get on a different track, help her step outside of the box and help her think through new goals and ways to reach them, it might give her a confidence to move beyond the relationship.

 

If she doesn't have a job, how does she support herself? Does she still live with her mother?

[JNW]

That is a disturbing set of circumstances. There is probably nothing you could say that would make your niece change her feelings for her BF. (My favorite aunt tried that on me when I was about the same age and it definitely didn't work.) It seems she is looking for self-worth in an unhealthy relationship. Unfortunately, we can't rescue grown men and women from bad decisions. As much as you love her and don't want to see her go down this road, I don't think you can save her. Probably the best thing you can do to have a positive impact is to spend time with her and help her to build a healthy self-concept apart from the BF.

 

People do whatever they've determined to do until they have a reason not to. Sometimes people don't decide to change until it comes from within. She will probably see the light one day on her own. Sorry you're going through this. It's hard to sit back and watch a train wreck.

[Chris in VA]

When we were in addiction counseling, we learned that kids who become addicts tend to stay at the maturity level of the age at which they started.

He started at 8?

Hmmm.

 

I'm sure he will eventually reveal himself to your niece. Perhaps he is enacting a pattern that is familiar to her--people crave the familiar. ITA with Joanne that she needs information to break that pattern, mostly so that she can CHOOSE to continue with it or not. Having the power of choice is a big deal. It would be a gift to her, to have more information on addiction, manipulation, issues that can result from growing up as she did, etc. How you give it to her is up to you--a great book, attending a seminar, directly talking to her--there are a lot of ways. I think for some of us, it needs to be explicit; others get the drift more easily. You know her.

 

Good luck. Stinks to see someone about to get hurt.

[ktgrok]

Having dated that guy myself..sigh...don't tell her anything that will put her on the defensive. If you criticize him it will feel like you are criticizing her judgement so she will defend him. Ask me how I know!

 

So...take her to lunch. Have a heart to heart with her about HER. NOT about him. Tell her, "I remember what it feels like to be young and feel like everything I want is SO far away or hard to get....and I wish someone had helped me figure out what I want and how to get it. I'd like to do that for you, if you will let me. I don't want to tell you what to do, or make your decisions, but would love to be a sounding board and help you get what you want. Have you thought about what you'd like to do in life, or where you'd like to be in a few years?"

 

Then if that goes well maybe as, "what about relationships? I know it is too soon/you're too young to settle down probably, but what would you like in a husband/father for your kids one day?" Get her thinking about what she wants, not what he isn't.

 

Oh, and probably more important than any of the talking is to get her around your husband as much as possible. let her see how a REAL man acts, how hard he works, how he treats you and the kids, etc. She needs to see that so she can do the comparisons herself.

[shinyhappypeople]

You all overwhelm me with your wisdom. Thank you.

 

She definitely needs to hang out with my DH more. I might ask DH to gently make some fatherly comments about her value as a person, relationships, how real men treat women, and so on.

 

I think I will invite her over to hang with me and the girlies and do some school planning with her, talk about how she needs to take advantage of her college opportunities NOW while it is 100% paid for (fin. aid) and find some short term goals she can work toward. She was a B student in high school, but the HS courses here are so dumbed down, that she still had to spend the first 3 semesters of community college in remedial classes. She's *finally* able to start real college-level classes and it's discouraging to her that she's had to put in an extra year and a half just to begin, kwim?

 

I'm still not sure how or if to tell her about the cigarette thing. She just really needs to raise her standards. I might talk to her about how I had created rules for myself regarding who I would and wouldn't date. You know: needs to have a job, treats his mother respectfully, loves God (I'm a Christian, so is she)... etc. and WHY I made those rules.

 

I might also mention how important girlfriends are. Guys come and go (until you find a good one), but friends can be forever. I'd love to see her invest her time in building some great, healthy friendships with other young women. She's let friendships fall by the wayside. At the moment, her only close female friend is friends with Boyfriend and doesn't inspire my niece to greatness, to put it kindly.

 

So, anyway, that's what I'm thinking at the moment. I have reputation in my family as the career planner (I love, love, love helping people with this stuff), so it would be totally normal for me to butt in and insist (kindly) that she let me help.

[shinyhappypeople]

OOOH! I have an idea! I can't believe I didn't think of it sooner. She's frustrated with how long college is taking, so I could help her study for the CLEP and maybe get a few pre-reqs out of the way! Maybe if she knows that she could shave a few more classes off just through personal study (with me mentoring, teaching, helping) this summer, that might be just the shot in the arm she needs to get back into school mode.

 

Oh my gosh, I hope she chooses to take me up on this offer. This could be a very good thing.

[JNW]

I think it's great that you care so deeply for your niece.

 

My tendency is to distance myself from those who try to give me unsolicited advice. But your niece may not be that way. I shy away from them even if I think they may be right, and even if I know they're giving me advice because they care. I might even take their advice, but I automatically put a wall up when someone gives me unsolicited advice. Why? Not sure... Maybe it makes me think the person is being critical of me. Sometimes it makes me think the person is trying to control me, or it makes me feel like a baby. When I was in a really bad place in my life and people gave me unwanted advice, it made me feel like even more of a loser/idiot/rebel/etc.

 

I admire you for wanting to help your niece, but I would tread very lightly if you want her to feel like she can come to you when the bottom drops out. I never went to any of the people that gave me unwanted advice when I eventually wanted to talk to someone. I went to a therapist, and to the friends that hadn't given me unwanted advice. Everyone is different, but that has been my experience with advice both on the receiving end and the giving end, and with being the friend that someone came to when the bottom dropped out.

 

You can still be there for her, spend time with her, affirm her as a person, and let her know that you love her.

[Catwoman]

I'm still not sure how or if to tell her about the cigarette thing. She just really needs to raise her standards. I might talk to her about how I had created rules for myself regarding who I would and wouldn't date. You know: needs to have a job, treats his mother respectfully, loves God (I'm a Christian, so is she)... etc. and WHY I made those rules.

 

 

I would definitely mention the cigarette thing and let her know exactly what happened. You don't have to turn it into a major drama, but you can say you were surprised that a grown man would beg someone to buy him cigarettes. I would assume that your niece would be quite embarrassed to hear that he did something like that -- I don't think most people would be too happy to hear that their date was panhandling from their relative in the driveway.

 

IMO, that incident told you a lot about this young man, and I think you owe it to your niece to tell her about it. If she doesn't think it was a big deal or doesn't think he was wrong to ask you to pay for his cigarettes, that will tell you something about her maturity level and also about her feelings about sponging off of other people. I'm not saying that one incident will cause a lightbulb moment and she will immediately see this guy as the loser you believe him to be, but it might make her more observant of his behavior and help her take note when similar things happen -- and if this guy had the nerve to ask you to pay for something, he's asking other people, too.

 

If nothing else, at least you will be giving her some information about the guy. Maybe a lot of people are sheltering her by not telling her the negative things about him because they don't want to hurt her feelings, and that's not really fair to her. If she doesn't know these things, she won't have any reason to look at this guy with anything but rose-colored glasses.

[lllll]

..

[Kaleidoscope]

You definitely don't want to be kicking yourself later for ignoring the situation. Speaking up directly might not be the most effective approach at the moment but finding ways to invest in her and help her see the truth would be worth the effort.

[QuirkyKapers]

I had a talk with my niece who was dating someone abusive and pretty much had moved in with him. She told me he hit her. I never told her to leave but I did tell her make sure that whatever she did in life, make sure she wasn't settling because she didn't think she can do something or wasn't good enough. I told her my concern about that behavior was that what was happening now, would just get worse/amplified the longer they were together. I than talked to her about what I saw in her that I thought were strengths and positive qualities. I talked to her about making sure that if she didn't want to live at home anymore, there were other choices that she could make in regards to living situations, like living on campus. I also told her be careful not to just make choices to get you out of one situation that wasn't that great into another that might not be that great either. I asked her if her mom had ever talked to her about stuff like that. Nope. I didn't do ever thinking that it would be listened too. However, she did end up staying at home and breaking it off with that person. :grouphug:

 

I would err on the side of talking with her. I would think of how to say it so she could hear what you are saying. What is underneath what the boyfriend is doing is what bothers you and you see that she is worth so much more. Tell her how you love her and what you love. Let her know you are there for her. Talk to her about things that make up a healthy relationship and how you have worked it out in yours. Laugh about how you are so glad you don't have to deal with X type of behavior. (you could talk about something that mirrors the manipulative behavior the boyfriend did. If you almost settled for that tell her. I think if you talk about it in terms of yourself, maybe she will think about what you said. She might ask you straight out if you think her boyfriend is a healthy person. Be prepared. What I didn't realize is that my niece had no one in her life that had ever talked to her about choices and how beautiful a person she is. :grouphug: