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Math 5/4 for 4th grader?


journey00
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The CHC curriculum for 4th grade uses Saxon 5/4. We are switching him from Teaching Textbooks (my husband dislikes it) and I think my son is tiring of it. He needs more review than TT provides and he needs to practice writing numbers. I would like to use Saxon for 5th not 4th because we need to solidify math facts before we begin Saxon. My question is: Isn't this book for advanced 4th graders & average 5th? In the long term, I don't mind him doing Algebra in 9th instead of 8th. I think we will use CLE for 4th and continue flash cards and xtramath.org during the summer. Thanks!

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I have been told it's appropriate for either grade, but that it's really more important to test the child and see where they fall, especially if they have used a different math program previously.

 

Typical use is regular 4th grader or "needs some help" 5th grader. I was corrected recently because I was under the impression that it was bright 4th grader or average 5th grader.

 

My daughter tests into 6/5, but I KNOW there are holes in her understanding so we are doing 5/4 for 5th grade and testing through the beginning chapters until she can't do it anymore.

 

I personally believe that we should be putting our kids where they will do best and not worry what grade other kids are doing it in. I agree that if you feel there are holes or places to review first before moving on, then take the time now and use 5/4 for fifth grade. Don't push through in the early years. They only get one chance for foundation.

 

Test to be sure where to place her for the best results.

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Yikes, I've been homeschooling for ... well, about a decade, and I had no idea there were official placement tests. I always thought people were just referring to the tests that came with the book and they were supposed to do them till they got a certain percentage wrong. Thank you for that link. I can hardly wait to have my kids tested and see where they are!

 

Also, I was told that 5/4 meant 4th grade regular/5th grade gifted for school conversion purposes. Oh well. Live and learn.

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Yikes, I've been homeschooling for ... well, about a decade, and I had no idea there were official placement tests. I always thought people were just referring to the tests that came with the book and they were supposed to do them till they got a certain percentage wrong. Thank you for that link. I can hardly wait to have my kids tested and see where they are!

 

Also, I was told that 5/4 meant 4th grade regular/5th grade gifted for school conversion purposes. Oh well. Live and learn.

 

Yep, me too. LOL

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Originally it WAS normal 5th grade, bright 4th. And them we entered the new cold war space race type mentality of trying to make ALL students competitive. Sigh! BIG BIG BIG sigh!

 

I'm all for accelerating SOME students, but I really hate it when "normal" is used as a bad word!

 

54 was designed for 5th graders, that is why the 5 comes first. Algebra was traditionally a 9th grade course, NOT an 8th grade course. GIFTED 8th graders took Algebra. NORMAL 8th graders used 87. Now...well... I don't even want to discuss now. :banghead:

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You might look at Saxon Intermediate 3. I'm looking at that for my two that need a little more time to get used to how Saxon works before jumping off into 5/4. I'm getting both (got some extra money this year!) so that I can accelerate if I need to.

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Originally it WAS normal 5th grade, bright 4th. And them we entered the new cold war space race type mentality of trying to make ALL students competitive. Sigh! BIG BIG BIG sigh!

 

I'm all for accelerating SOME students, but I really hate it when "normal" is used as a bad word!

 

54 was designed for 5th graders, that is why the 5 comes first. Algebra was traditionally a 9th grade course, NOT an 8th grade course. GIFTED 8th graders took Algebra. NORMAL 8th graders used 87. Now...well... I don't even want to discuss now. :banghead:

 

 

 

When was that? Because I emailed with Art Reed, and he told me "John’s books were designed to be taken sequentially and the hard cover textbooks started with the fourth grade which was Math 54".

 

Not to be argumentative, but I wanted to check because I'd never heard it the other way until recently on these boards. I've always heard it was accelerating when a 3rd grader uses the 54 book, but not that it was accelerated when a 4th grader did.

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Tested my kids using the link that SilverMoon provided. So glad to know about that link. My youngest son has definitely been one grade, if not two, too low! My kids moan about their Math and it turns out the moaning did not indicate the level of difficulty - just their attitudes. :) I'm so glad to know. We tested all morning and have had long independent reviews of the material. Even though they will be challenged, they are both thrilled to be jumping a grade. I was holding them both back out of fear of pushing them too hard, lol.

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Tested my kids using the link that SilverMoon provided. So glad to know about that link. My youngest son has definitely been one grade, if not two, too low! My kids moan about their Math and it turns out the moaning did not indicate the level of difficulty - just their attitudes. :) I'm so glad to know. We tested all morning and have had long independent reviews of the material. Even though they will be challenged, they are both thrilled to be jumping a grade. I was holding them both back out of fear of pushing them too hard, lol.

 

The Saxon placement test gives artificially high results when taken by kids already using Saxon.

 

(The instructions say "This test is not intended for use with current Saxon students" in the instructions and it is called "Middle Grades Math Placement Test For Students New to the Saxon Math Program.")

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Well, that's confusing! Why does Saxon make it so complicated? I guess I'll just give the workbook tests and when they get to a place where it's too complicated, then start? Geez, why wouldn't it be applicable for someone within the program? That just seems weird.

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Well, that's confusing! Why does Saxon make it so complicated? I guess I'll just give the workbook tests and when they get to a place where it's too complicated, then start? Geez, why wouldn't it be applicable for someone within the program? That just seems weird.

 

 

Because it's a placement test, designed to help teachers figure out where to place students who are starting Saxon for the first time. When children complete a Saxon text, they move on to the next one, regardless of their grade levels. This does not seem complicated to me. What is it, exactly, that confuses you?

 

The tests that come with the texts (it used to be a "homeschool packet;" I don't know if it is any longer) can be used for placement of a sort, but not usually instead of the placement test.

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When was that? Because I emailed with Art Reed, and he told me "John’s books were designed to be taken sequentially and the hard cover textbooks started with the fourth grade which was Math 54".

 

Not to be argumentative, but I wanted to check because I'd never heard it the other way until recently on these boards. I've always heard it was accelerating when a 3rd grader uses the 54 book, but not that it was accelerated when a 4th grader did.

 

Art Reed has his opinions, that I don't always agree with them. Number one, he has a product to sell and that affects all of his opinions and advice.

 

I think the original textbook writer was a FAR better teacher than Art Reed. so often READING the text is FAR superior to watching the Reed videos. As Saxon gets more revised, I know less and less about it, as I haven't used the newer editions.

 

If Art Reed's methods and products help people, then by all means they should use them. But we did better on our own, and I'm not the only one to have found that.

 

Back in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s it was standard procedure to place normal 9th graders in Algebra 1. Then it was 8th grade. Now it's often 7th grade. That affects how "experts" advise people to place little children in 54, especially with the addition of Algebra 1/2 added to the series.

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the original series was 54-87 and then Algebra 1?

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I think it's weird because why couldn't it apply if you're using Saxon? For instance, we unschooled for years but have handed down Saxon Math books from SM2 -SM Advanced Math, so obviously I'd like to use them. For the last few years, we've haphazardly used the program. They dislike writing so much and we do enough verbal math that they're actually pretty good at math. But this last year (my first year to be truly "classical" from beginning to end) I guessed at where they were and just started. I'm big on not killing the love of learning, so I don't push them too hard with book work. I didn't know about a placement test. But it's been the book we've used all along. So that's why I say... if Saxon is all we've used and we've only been seriously using a book for the last year, why am I not supposed to use the placement tests? When I tested them, one tested 2 grade levels up and the other 1 level up. Does this not apply to me since I've been using Saxon? If not, why not? Not that there's not a reason for it, I'm just wondering what that rationale is. What am I missing? :confused:

 

OP: Sorry, I think I hijacked your thread. :o Did you get your answer?

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Saxon includes a LOT of MIXED review. The student is supposed to be working at a level where the review is EASY or it will take forever and be exhausting to complete. It's important to not place the student too high. I also don't like to place a student above their reading comprehension level, as I like to teach the student to READ the book.

 

Saxon has it's own language and methods, that students who have not been using the book, are unfamiliar with. New students are at a disadvantage that current students are not. The test is scaled towards new students. It's kind of like kids who are taught to do problems like those on IQ tests, and then get an inflated IQ score, compared to those that have never been given those types of problems. Practicing the problems didn't make the child's IQ go up, it just made them test higher.

 

Loftmama, I'd judge your children's levels by their daily work instead of a placement test. Place them where they are getting most of the problems correct and are able to complete them quickly. I've never used the placement tests.

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Hunter, thank you. That makes sense. They took the tests - and I'm glad they did - but I'll keep that in mind about how it could place them inappropriately high. They are perfectionists about their Math and wanted to go over and understand any problem they missed. Then we thumbed through the higher level books, checked out some problems, and they were both very excited about moving up. I wouldn't have seriously considered doing that without having to take the tests. They read the lessons themselves and teach themselves the math and only ask me for occasional clarifications. But I'll definitely be conscious of not falsely placing them too high because I love numbers and I don't want them to not like math (apart from writing so much.) I do see how one could get placed artificially high and then be frustrated and have the whole math progrma backfire. I really just placed them too low to begin with and didn't realize their complaints and procrastination reflected boredom. And honestly, I think so much of what I've seen so far in 3, 54, 65, 76 conceptually is very much the same, just written to their different ages.

 

I have to say after they took the tests (that they weren't supposed to take) and spending about an hour thumbing through the more advanced books, they were super excited. So then I told them if they could ace the rest of the tests in their books, they could move up and just start at the point where they aren't acing the tests. (Does this sound cuckoo?) I suppose I should research Saxon so it doesn't backfire on me - especially if there's some aspect I'm not yet considering that will make me regret it later. I want this to be the program that we grow with since I have the books and I figure I can always find a way to make math work. (Math nerd here.) :D

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Saxon has it's own language and methods, that students who have not been using the book, are unfamiliar with. New students are at a disadvantage that current students are not.

 

Boy are we finding this out the hard way. Melissa missed 8/20 on her test thru today and in analyzing it, most were because the wording was different and she didn't understand what they were asking her to do.

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Art Reed has his opinions, that I don't always agree with them. Number one, he has a product to sell and that affects all of his opinions and advice.

 

I think the original textbook writer was a FAR better teacher than Art Reed. so often READING the text is FAR superior to watching the Reed videos. As Saxon gets more revised, I know less and less about it, as I haven't used the newer editions.

 

If Art Reed's methods and products help people, then by all means they should use them. But we did better on our own, and I'm not the only one to have found that.

 

Back in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s it was standard procedure to place normal 9th graders in Algebra 1. Then it was 8th grade. Now it's often 7th grade. That affects how "experts" advise people to place little children in 54, especially with the addition of Algebra 1/2 added to the series.

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but the original series was 54-87 and then Algebra 1?

 

Art Reed does have opinions (don't we all!). He also has a product to sell, but I've never purchased from him nor implied that I would when I asked the question, so I don't see the relevance here. It's in his best interest for students to be placed at the correct level in Saxon, since most problems come when children are placed incorrectly. He also mentioned (as we've mentioned here) that the most important thing is to take the placement test and start in the book where the student places.

 

I think the best grade for a child to take algebra is the grade when the child is ready for algebra. If that's in 7th, 8th, 9th, or later, if the child is ready, there is no reason for them not to take it. There is plenty of math to cover, and I would think many of the students that are ready to take it earlier might be interested in careers which require a lot of math. The nice thing about homeschooling is that we can customize for our kids, right?

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loftmama--Maybe someone else already mentioned this, but next year you can have them test through the first several lessons (I've heard of kids testing through like 50 lessons even). Just keep giving tests until they get less than whatever percentage you deem appropriate (I'd actually also be looking for the types of errors--I'd give silly computation errors more leeway than conceptual errors) and then when they dip below that percentage, back up five or ten lessons and proceed.

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To answer the OP again. i don't feel that Saxon is for advanced 4th graders. My current 4th grader has been working with Saxon 5/4 and it's about right for him. I haven't done a placement test either. He's all over the place in his math skills so i knew i wanted him in 5/4 regardless. For example. The math facts tests fro each lesson will likely be enough for any kid who needs to learn them, BUT I'm big on not giving facts practice tests to learn facts. If a child doesn't have them down, it indicates IMHO that there's some conceptual foundation work they need to know/learn. Just giving them timed test is going to stress some kids out. My ds has his facts (other than division) down BEFORE we started Saxon, so I offer them to him as a review. he actually likes to challenge himself with the timed tests, something that I personally would find torturous. But oftentimes he just doesn't do them.

 

The first 30-40 lessons were a lot of review that he learned in Miquon math with a few new things he didn't. It's better for my ds to have those lessons with problems he can do easily (for his confidence) as well as those that are challenging to him. I also have been using other math peripherals so we will not finish 5/4 this year. Which is fine because the last half of the book seems closer to a 5th grade level than the first half. That's the way I have chosen to look at them. We'll just move up to the next level when we are there rather than worry about "grade' and finishing a book in a year.

 

I'm the type of mom that's not comfortable skipping Saxon lessons or problem sets because I have noticed these subtle conceptual threads that build on each other as a child works through the problems, especially in the Mental Math section which is our favorite part as far as real math challenge. But I'm also the type of mom okay with not finishing a book in a year calendar.

 

OP---if you feel like you want to use 5/4 but you don't feel your child is ready this year, no harm. But I just wanted to put it out there that imo that first half of the book is really simple and more in line with what I would consider "4th grade" math if those terms matter to you.

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