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Question re: WWS/IEW (5th grade)


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I'm trying to decide between starting my 5th grader in WWS (which looks great!) or IEW SWI A (or B?). If you used WWS for a 5th grader what prior writing did your dc use and how do I know if dd is ready? We did some WWE (not much) and she does great with narration but has more trouble with the dictation part in WWE 4. I could keep working on WWE 4 through the summer.

 

So, maybe a year of IEW A or B and then in 6th grade move to WWS? If you vote IEW then A or B?

 

Thanks!

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I haven't used IEW, but I did use WWS with my 5th grader this year. We have done about 2/3 of it so far, we took a break after the literary analyis section to do some writing across the curriculum, and will pick up the last couple of sections in the beginning of 6th grade. My thoughts about using WWS with a 5th grader:

  • go at your child's pace, and don't be afraid to give them extra time, and to take breaks if it is getting too intense. Don't feel like you have to finish it all in one year to be "on track". The full WWS promises to be a great college-prep writing program, so you got time . . .
  • Don't assume you will be able to hand it off to her. Lots of kids need to be taught to read the instructions - all the instructions - and may need help navigating the instructions, even though the book is written to the student
  • Some of the passages are pretty advanced for a 5th grader, so you will need to gauge your dd's understanding and help her out if she's not getting something
  • Lots of users have found it helpful to provide dc with extra background info - via documentaries, books, online research, etc. before having their dc complete writing assignments. The notes in WWS that dc are supposed to write from can be too cryptic if it is a topic they don't already know something about.

That said, it is a great program, and your dd will learn a lot from it. I just don't think it should be sold or bought as "5th grade writing". Some 5th graders will be able to use it fine, some kids won't fully benefit from it till later, and even if you use it with a much older student, I suspect they will learn a *lot* from it.

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I also used WWS1 for a 5th grader this year, and fully agree with Chrysalis' evaluation. Prior to WWS, my son had worked through WWE 1-4. My son did fine reading the instructions on his own (he is a very self-motivated and self-directed student), but he definitely needed extra time with me around week 12, and again at the notetaking & two-level outlining sections. He needed a full five days a week for weeks 23-26. We are in the final stretch now, and have taken 5-6 days to complete each of lessons 27-32.

 

We didn't use any additional documentaries. MANY of the subjects dovetailed with his history and science - and I counted this assignments toward both. At the beginning of the year around week three or four he was getting overwhelmed with the workload, so I stopped having him outline his history or write history narratives until we had passed the first lessons in WWS on outlining. After that, he picked back up his weekly outlining and writing for history and it was a breeze for him. There were definitely some tears at points, but they were usually followed by big skill-level advancements shortly-thereafter.

 

I am actually SO excited for him to have these skills going INTO 6th grade. But I don't think you'd be behind if you delayed starting until 6th. I will have to wait and see with each of my kiddos that follow, to determine their readiness for WWS1. It is rigorous.

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If you got with IEW, I would start with level A, unless you have an advanced reader and writer. A & B cover the same writing lessons, but B has more advanced and longer passages that they write from, and I think you're expected to go at a faster pace. I started IEW A with my 4th grader, but we are taking it VERY slow. He only did half of it this year. I don't intend for him to complete it until 6th grade. One of the units is writing a multi-paragraph report from multiple sources. That's not a skill I'm interested in him learning until 6th or 7th grade.

 

I also started my 6th grader on A along with my 4th grader, and also only covered half with him. The plan is to switch over to their ancient history writing for 7th, do SICC B in 8th, and get him to high school level material in 9th. So it's possible to start IEW A with an older student and still get the skills in.

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OP, My son did IEW's SWI-B starting right after he turned 10, and it went well even though he was writing-averse going into it. I think IEW's suggested ages for the various levels are a bit off. I would expect an average 7th or 8th grader to be doing level C work, rather than level B as they suggest, for example.

 

When it comes to certain subjects (like writing), if I'm waffling between levels, I'll usually go for the higher level because it is easier for me to reduce the output expectations if something turns out to be too difficult, than it is for me to add more to something that is too easy. And IEW is very flexible and easy to adjust down to the appropriate challenge level. And I'm not referring to simply adjusting the number of paragraphs required. Rather, I'm referring to decreasing or removing certain requirements on each assignment's specific grading rubric. Just take a good long look at the generous samples on their website and that should help you decide.

 

There is overlap between SWI-A and B in terms of concepts taught at the beginning. You can see them on the IEW website. I felt that SWI-B was better prep for WWS for my DS than SWI-A in terms of output, while also allowing me the freedom to dial down the expectations when I felt it was necessary.

 

Anyway, DS worked through WWE4, and I had already purchased WWS1, but we took most of 5th grade to do IEW SWI-B. I think he could have done WWS1 in 5th but he would have shed many tears, I'm afraid. IEW's procedural and incremental approach worked well for him, and now he has confidence in his ability to write well. He has been applying his new writing skills in his content subjects (history, science, lit) easily.

 

WWS has always been our goal, but side-stepping to IEW for a year was exactly what he needed. I've read here that outlining and paragraphing skills (topic sentence, supporting details, concluding sentence) need to be solid before WWS1, as well as being just comfortable with the writing process (draft, re-write, edit, polish) and having good narration skills. IEW and WWS are quite different but complement each other well. Considering the release schedule of the WWS series (WWS2 isn't even out yet), I haven't felt the need to rush him from WWE4 to WWS1, and I don't regret the path we've taken so far. If you want to do WWS eventually anyway, why not buy a copy, dig into it yourself & evaluate if you think your DD is ready, or just jump in and have her start it, and set it aside temporarily if now isn't the right time?

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OP, you mentioned your DD having trouble with the dictation in WWE4. I wouldn't worry about that and don't see it as a prerequisite for doing well in WWS1. Many here on the board say WWE4's dictation is too challenging and I agree. Here's a YouTube

of SWB's son doing dictation from WWE4, and if you watch it, you'll see that SWB herself gives him much more help and support than what is instructed in the book. After seeing this, I had much more realistic expectations with my DS and dictation.
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You all have been very helpful! Thanks for all the input. I think that since I have time I will maybe start her on IEW and probably try the SWI-B or A...ha! I guess I will debate that one. I guess if I buy A then maybe my ds could use it when he gets to 4th vs waiting to use B when he gets to 5th. Hmmm, I will look at the samples but they are a bit overwhelming. For now, I think then I will save WWS for 6th grade--I can't wait.

 

If any of you have used SWI-A or B will I be OK not having seen the TWSS (I think that is the abbreviation..)? I read that I could just start using SWI and be fine.

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Agreeing with everyone else, but wanting to add that a run through this book may prove to be extremely helpful before starting WWS1. My dd used IEW from 3rd through 4th. It worked beautifully for getting her to not fear writing, thinking about word choices, and expanding her sentence structure. However, since the notetaking\outlining is different between IEW and WWS I wanted her to be familiar and comfortable with the traditional outlining that WWS uses in addition to being familiar with the different purposes for writing. It is a quick and easy book. We are halfway through it now and I feel so much more comfortable with the idea of her starting WWS toward the end of her 5th grade year\beginning of 6th than I did before. Do I think it is an absolute necessity? No, however, if you have the time to fit it in it will, in my opinion, help your dd make a smooth transition into WWS.

 

Edited to add: I would start with SWI - B unless your child struggles with reading. SWI - A, while intentionally easy to allow for focusing on the writing, not comprehension, was too "babyish" for my 4th grader. :)

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I used SWI-A with my 5th and 3rd graders last year, and think you would be fine with either A or B. If you have a younger child coming up with whom you would use the program at a younger age, I'd lean toward A but about halfway through begin beefing up the assignments. I would require my 5th grader to write 3 paragraphs when I asked my 3rd grader to write 1 paragraph, for example.

 

I was planning to move my now 6th grader into WWS this coming year, but my kids loved IEW so much that they are begging for more. So instead of WWS we will be doing SWCC-A for 6th & 4th grades. I've read that WWS is very "meaty" and could be used at any age in middle school, so I will re-consider it for DS for his 7th grade year.

 

If you go with IEW, yes you could get SWI and use it alone, but you will need to sit with your kids and watch along with them so you understand what is being taught and how to help them with their writing. The TWSS is to teach you how to teach them - it's nice but you could get away without it if cost was an issue. (If you can afford it, you can probably re-sell it for 75% of what you paid for it down the road.)

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I'm trying to decide this too. I don't think my son is ready for WWS. We are at week 21 on WWE3 and he struggles with the dictation. We also did 2/3 of iew swiA this year. I think it would be better for him to keep working on WWE, finish SWIA and start history outlining next year. Then next year both of my kids will probably be ready for WWS. Dd is advanced in LA and doing great with WWE2 and swiA.

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I'm trying to decide this too. I don't think my son is ready for WWS. We are at week 21 on WWE3 and he struggles with the dictation. We also did 2/3 of iew swiA this year. I think it would be better for him to keep working on WWE, finish SWIA and start history outlining next year. Then next year both of my kids will probably be ready for WWS. Dd is advanced in LA and doing great with WWE2 and swiA.

 

Don't let the dictation issues prevent you from moving forward in WWE. I know some will disagree with me (and I don't care to debate it on this thread), however, in my experience with 3 dc so far, the dictation is valuable for training the brain to hold thoughts...but some dc can only take this so far and it isn't worth the frustration to push past a certain level.

 

We drop the dictation toward the end of WWE3 and instead use those passages occasionally for paraphrasing practice. Not being able to hold and re-write a whole paragraph word for word has not prevented my dc to write effectively in the least. I still hold to the belief that the ability to hold ones own thoughts and hold someone else's thoughts are not the same. I can't speak for everyone who writes, but when I write I rarely compose more than 2-3 sentences in my head at a time...and even then revise as I put them on paper.

 

Not that you asked my opinion... :)

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Agreeing with Aime, if the only trouble with WWE is dictation - if the narrating/summarizing skills are rock solid - I wouldn't let that be the determining factor on whether to move on.

 

I think the necessary skills before starting WWS are solid narration/summary skills and a basic understanding of paragraphs. WWS provides virtually no explicit instruction on paragraphing at the beginning (when, how and why), it just kind of happens as you organize/outline/write. Again, maybe a better teaching technique for a parts-to-whole person, but for someone who likes to understand the how and why of a tool before using it, this gap is frustrating.

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This is good to know Rose and Aime. I did want to try WWS next year because the local classical school will be doing it and I would like to stay in step with them as it might be a great option soon. University model means 2 days at the school, 3 days at home :). I just don't want to frustrate him, yet I do want to push him!

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If you used WWS for a 5th grader what prior writing did your dc use and how do I know if dd is ready? We did some WWE (not much) and she does great with narration but has more trouble with the dictation part in WWE 4. I could keep working on WWE 4 through the summer.

 

So, maybe a year of IEW A or B and then in 6th grade move to WWS? If you vote IEW then A or B?

Thanks!

I taught WWS to a group of 5th through 9th graders last year. Like others have said, don't let the dictation deter you from jumping in to WWS. Also, to reiterate, thsi is not simply a "5th grade" writing program. All of my kids were challenged by the program and learned a ton.

If you decide to go with IEW (which I taught for years and vended for) I would recommend going with B.

You'll cover more, can always speed up or slow down as needed.

 

  • go at your child's pace, and don't be afraid to give them extra time, and to take breaks if it is getting too intense. Don't feel like you have to finish it all in one year to be "on track". The full WWS promises to be a great college-prep writing program, so you got time . . .
  • Don't assume you will be able to hand it off to her. Lots of kids need to be taught to read the instructions - all the instructions - and may need help navigating the instructions, even though the book is written to the student

.

Yep. This coure requires an instructor, especially with younger students. My kids found tons of overlap in science nad history and one of my biggest challenges was getting them to STOP sharing all of the connections they were making.

 

Our dd is 10 yo and started IEW this schoolyear without almost any prior writinglessons.

She likes IEW, it is 'the way she thinks' and is very happy with it.

 

But I followed the TWSS course on dvd and work with the fables, myth, fairytales book.

That was a good fit for us.

Next year I plan to use the Narnia book.

 

For us it was a good idea to start slightly below level.

Now she feel confident, she can write.

 

And that is one of the beauities of IEW, imho. It gives kids confidence to tackle a writing project, because it builds in success. There is a ton of overlap in both programs. The one weakness of WWS is that it doesn't teach topic sentences. We had to take a week to go over this because the kids kept leaving them out.

I think WWS teaches better structure as far as scholastic writing goes. It was VERY easy to incorporate IEW info into WWS, but the reverse would not be true. WWS is teaching a way of academic thinking and writing. IEW is teaching writing generally with a lot of stylistic techniques.

I'm a confirmed IEW and WWS user- and I like WWE, too. It just depends on what your goals, $, resources are for the year.

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There's a lot of great information on this thread--thank you to the OP for asking the question. I have a question to piggy-back off the OP's original...

 

For those of you who have used both IEW and WWS, do you think it would be possible to do both at the same time?

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There's a lot of great information on this thread--thank you to the OP for asking the question. I have a question to piggy-back off the OP's original...

 

For those of you who have used both IEW and WWS, do you think it would be possible to do both at the same time?

 

As in do WWS and then an IEW themebook or SWI? Why would you want to? I incorporated a ton of IEW info as I was teaching WWS- super easy to do. But both writing "programs" at once? I wouldn't. For one, it would be too much work in one area for YOU and for another you don't want to drown your student.

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There's a lot of great information on this thread--thank you to the OP for asking the question. I have a question to piggy-back off the OP's original...

 

For those of you who have used both IEW and WWS, do you think it would be possible to do both at the same time?

 

WWS sounds intense for a fifth grader. You could do,a year of IEW and save WWS for 6th if you want the stylistic tools from IEW

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Forgiven - or anyone else interested,

 

As the two previous posters said, doing both would be too much. However, once you've gone through at least a year of IEW your student should be fairly well prepared to apply all of those stylistic techniques they learned to any writing they do. Here is a wonderful little resource notebook for your student to use while writing in other subjects. Student Resource Notebook. It includes outline models, words lists, grammar instruction, and punctuation information. It's like a super condensed IEW writers handbook. My younger dd (10) uses it a lot, however, my two older dc are so familiar with it's content and so comfortable automatically thinking about style that they don't use it anymore. It is a great hand-holding tool though.

 

I believe (someone can correct me) that you can receive this free if you purchase a themed unit, otherwise it's reasonably priced at $15.00.

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My dc did SWI-A in 4th (dd) and 5th(ds) grades and SICC-A in 5th and 6th grades. This was through a co-op and I taught the 4th grade class and later taught an SICC B class for middle and high schoolers. I completely agree that SWI built in confidence in their writing ability where there had previously been no writing. My dc didn't even do WWE. We did run through an outlining workbook the previous year to beginning WWS that I believe helped.

 

Not only did SWI get them over the initial fear of writing and build confidence, it got my dc used to editing their papers and me knowing how to be their editor. It was a wonderful introduction into writing.

 

I agree that the two programs are not compatible at the same time. I will use SWI for my younger child in the 4th or 5th grades as well. I will not begin WWS until 6th grade.

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