Self Ed: Resources on French Revolution

[SophiaH]

What are your favorite HS/adult level resources on the French Revolution? I'm completely ignorant on anything having to do with the French Revolution so I'm planning on reading a couple of JUV/YA non-fiction books from the library to start and then jump into the upper level stuff. I'd like to find at least one great overview resource, and then go more in depth on certain topics/people. I'm especially interested in non-fiction books and documentaries (I love narrative style non-fiction).

Thanks!

[Candid]

I really liked this book: http://www.amazon.com/Citizens-Chronicle-French-Revolution-ebook/dp/B002XHNMRG/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368223548&sr=1-2&keywords=citizen It is pretty narrative. Be prepared for the full horror of some parts of the French Revolution.

 

And a smaller but interesting part of the revolution: http://www.amazon.com/Quell-Terror-Carmelites-Compiegne-Guillotined/dp/0935216677/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368223597&sr=1-1&keywords=to+quell+the+terror

[Joan in GE]

I really liked this book: http://www.amazon.co...eywords=citizen It is pretty narrative. Be prepared for the full horror of some parts of the French Revolution.

 

And a smaller but interesting part of the revolution: http://www.amazon.co...uell the terror

 

 

Dd is just working on a paper now comparing the French and US revolutions - I so wish we could just pick up this book from the library, but have had to resort to buying it and hoping it arrives with enough time for her to add ideas to her paper which is due the end of May (Kindle price is just too much and I don't want to be reading it on the Kindle either...)...

 

What stuck out the most for you from the first book?

 

The second book looks interesting as well, but I wouldn't use it for the paper as the Swiss were already displeased with her paper last year...

 

Thanks, Candid,

Joan

[PeterPan]

I suppose it wouldn't work to watch a bunch of the movies that have been made on it? http://en.wikipedia....evolution_films Then a quick textbook reading would glue everything together for you.

[Candid]

 

Dd is just working on a paper now comparing the French and US revolutions - I so wish we could just pick up this book from the library, but have had to resort to buying it and hoping it arrives with enough time for her to add ideas to her paper which is due the end of May (Kindle price is just too much and I don't want to be reading it on the Kindle either...)...

 

What stuck out the most for you from the first book?

 

Plus is that is narrative as it can be (since it doesn't follow one person that's a bit more difficult). It uses artwork from the time to illustrate things (political cartoons of Marie Antoinette). You understand the progression of events. The French Revolution was a long complex event and there were a lot of different phases. It was a BIG work and ranged over a lot of people and details. For a high school student it may be too slow.

 

She should read the negative reviews at Amazon (just keep the overall score in mind compared to the few negative reviews), I know that some people don't like Schama. You can see in the comments the dynamic of conservative vs. liberal historians. I did not find his book to be biased in what I read, but I'll be the first to admit I didn't know a ton about the French Revolution. The richness of his detail makes it difficult for me to see how he is biased as he explores everybody in such detail. He's also a history professor at Columbia so he is well credentialed.

 

The second book looks interesting as well, but I wouldn't use it for the paper as the Swiss were already displeased with her paper last year...

 

Thanks, Candid,

Joan

 

 

Okay, this remark makes me curious what didn't they like?

 

I will say this book reinforces the impression that Schama is correct is his account as it lines up nicely with his book. This is the more scholarly of the two, but still eminently readable.

[Joan in GE]

Plus is that is narrative as it can be (since it doesn't follow one person that's a bit more difficult). It uses artwork from the time to illustrate things (political cartoons of Marie Antoinette). You understand the progression of events. The French Revolution was a long complex event and there were a lot of different phases. It was a BIG work and ranged over a lot of people and details. For a high school student it may be too slow.

 

She should read the negative reviews at Amazon (just keep the overall score in mind compared to the few negative reviews), I know that some people don't like Schama. You can see in the comments the dynamic of conservative vs. liberal historians. I did not find his book to be biased in what I read, but I'll be the first to admit I didn't know a ton about the French Revolution. The richness of his detail makes it difficult for me to see how he is biased as he explores everybody in such detail. He's also a history professor at Columbia so he is well credentialed.

 

Okay, this remark makes me curious what didn't they like?

 

I will say this book reinforces the impression that Schama is correct is his account as it lines up nicely with his book. This is the more scholarly of the two, but still eminently readable.

 

Good idea about the negative reviews...

 

It was a different topic but because there were 'spiritual elements' they didn't like it...

 

Joan

[Julie in MN]

I'm out of my league in this conversation, but I've been wanting to read a certain book on this subject because it was recommended in one of the Teaching Company Courses: Reflections on the Revolution in France, by Edmund Burke. I have a feeling it's more philosophical than historical chronology, but since it's a writer from the period, it might give good insight.

 

The TTC course was about America (Republic of Virtue) and was really just a meandering conversation, but his last lecture, for whatever reason, was about thoughts on the French revolution from two contrasting authors -- Thomas Paine who was basically in favor of the French Rev. and ended up an honorary member of their government but then in French prison apparently for thinking that beheading the king was going too far, and Edmund Burke. Anyways, Prof. Robinson seems very knowledgeable on how people were thinking about things at the time, and he claimed the Burke essay on the French Rev. was one of his top reads, so I was intrigued.

 

Anyone read it? It can't be a short read, since even the Dover version is like 6 or 7 dollars (instead of like $2 for Ben Franklin's autobiography).

 

Julie

[Joan in GE]

I've read little bits of it (Reflections on the Revolution in France, by Edmund Burke) as well as a lot of the Omnibus III analysis of it ...I think it's worth reading (or parts of it) to get a different perspective...(You're right Julie, it's 405 pages - Penguin Classics version)

 

Here we can read the French history textbooks; it's interesting to have contrasting points of view...I wonder how much the French read Burke's book and what they think of it...

 

Joan

[Julie in MN]

I should've guessed you'd read it, Joan :)

 

Here we can read the French history textbooks;

Now that would be interesting, a high school or junior high type textbook summary from the French "official" perspective. Anything that stuck out for you?

 

Julie

[Candid]

Thomas Paine who was basically in favor of the French Rev. and ended up an honorary member of their government but then in French prison apparently for thinking that beheading the king was going too far, and Edmund Burke. Anyways, Prof. Robinson seems very knowledgeable on how people were thinking about things at the time, and he claimed the Burke essay on the French Rev. was one of his top reads, so I was intrigued.

 

 

 

There is mention of this in the book I suggest and I've heard before that Paine was all in favor of the French Revolution until it actually got going. Then the ideal separated from the reality. Schama also spends sometime on Lafayette who was also in favor, and even led troops when neighboring countries tried to invaded, but things went south rapidly and he had himself taken prisoner by the other side to get out of the country in an honorable way.

[Julie in MN]

There is mention of this in the book I suggest and I've heard before that Paine was all in favor of the French Revolution until it actually got going. Then the ideal separated from the reality. Schama also spends sometime on Lafayette who was also in favor, and even led troops when neighboring countries tried to invaded, but things went south rapidly and he had himself taken prisoner by the other side to get out of the country in an honorable way.

Thanks, maybe I should read the Schama book first/instead, for a broader look. I looked at the neg reviews mentioned and I just can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to look at what went wrong in the French Rev, but I'm not if I'm missing something.

 

Hi Sophia, is this conversation helping you at all?!

Julie

[Candid]

Thanks, maybe I should read the Schama book first/instead, for a broader look. I looked at the neg reviews mentioned and I just can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want to look at what went wrong in the French Rev, but I'm not if I'm missing something.

 

Hi Sophia, is this conversation helping you at all?!

Julie

 

I think some folks want to have a rosier picture of the revolution. Paine may have been the first of those.

 

It's been some years since I read the book, my general feeling is it spent more time on Lafayette than Paine but not a huge amount on either. This book is a tidal wave of information and all of it somewhat chaotic and tangential. Don't know if that is how Schama writes or if that is how the French Revolution was since I've only read this one book (although I own his art book).

[Candid]

I should've guessed you'd read it, Joan :)

 

 

Now that would be interesting, a high school or junior high type textbook summary from the French "official" perspective. Anything that stuck out for you?

 

Julie

 

I'm also curious about that. For that matter, what the heck do the Swiss say about Calvin? He's rather spiritual you know.

[SophiaH]

Sorry, just able to get back to this thread. Loving the discussion...

Candid, thanks for the recs; I've put both of them in my amazon cart. The second one looks intriguing!

OhE, I didn't realize that wikipedia had the "category" section. That will be super helpful. Thanks for posting!

Julie, I, too, came across that book in my initial research. That's one I definitely am adding to the list.

My husband suggested A Tale of Two Cities as a fiction add-on, but he was thinking that the historical accuracy had been questioned? Anyway, it IS fiction, one of dh's favorite books, plus I've read it before, but like so many of my HS and college required books, I can't remember it. :/

Thanks for all the help!

Any definitive Napoleon or Marie Antoinette biographies that you've loved or found helpful?

[Joan in GE]

Now that would be interesting, a high school or junior high type textbook summary from the French "official" perspective. Anything that stuck out for you?

 

ETA - this is from French textbooks for France

 

Well for one thing the lack of judgement. Their history texts (for 8th grade as they don't cover that period of time in 9th grade) are something like Joy Hakim's books with lots of pictures and old prints (Candid I'm wondering if the one book you suggest will be like this with the old prints)...which are quite interesting (source documents) and they can be analyzed for lots of symbolic information but in 8th grade, there are hardly any 'long' discussion texts so they don't really go deeply into the serious discussion about this matter...It's almost like they give equal weight to the two sides...giving an excerpt of Robespierre justification of 'la Terreur', a little paragraph of Victor Hugo's view of him, another tiny one of his political ideas, then under his picture his description says ; known for his honesty and firmness of convictions....guillotined the day after he was arrested...There are no details of how many people were killed due to his ideas for example...In a separate two paragraphs about "la Terreur" there is one sentence which says "Des milliers de suspects sont traduits devant le tribunal révolutionnaire et guillotinés." It's very underplayed and there is lots of info about the "rights of man" document.

 

 

I'm also curious about that. For that matter, what the heck do the Swiss say about Calvin? He's rather spiritual you know.

 

ETA - this is from living in French speaking Switzerland

 

For Calvin's 300th anniversary, which was in 2009, they had lots of conferences, activities (play of his life), etc...but he's fairly poorly regarded as they tend to focus on his strictness and the people (some say as high as 57) who were executed while he was alive, even though he wasn't in the city's government per se, though the church did hold a lot of power at the time, and there were other factors related to the plague, etc..(if you search online you'll see lots of contradictory opinions about how responsible he really was)...Ok, I don't have a 9th grade book in front of me (they don't have grade by grade history books and for Jr Hi level have abandoned them pretty much completely because they think that gives the student the idea that there is a 'right' opinion about history and he should be comparing sources, etc - some of their ideas are quite interesting or could be, though I think history teachers can have their own agenda - but in the real life of students, I think they come away with little concrete history. They are in the process of reforming the school system so we'll see what they end up with later on). Though it would be 8th grade where they study that time period anyway - but only if the teacher finds it important - they have much more flexibility than the French. I don't know what depth they would go into since there is no book now...

 

Joan

[Julie in MN]

Very interesting education I'm getting here.

 

Glad Candid asked even more. I actually was expecting Calvin not to be mentioned at all, since rarely is he mentioned in US public schools.

 

Interesting point that taking away textbooks could open kids up to more ideas... or make them mure susceptible to teacher opinion.

 

Julie

[Candid]

ETA - this is from French textbooks for France

 

Well for one thing the lack of judgement. Their history texts (for 8th grade as they don't cover that period of time in 9th grade) are something like Joy Hakim's books with lots of pictures and old prints (Candid I'm wondering if the one book you suggest will be like this with the old prints)...which are quite interesting (source documents) and they can be analyzed for lots of symbolic information but in 8th grade, there are hardly any 'long' discussion texts so they don't really go deeply into the serious discussion about this matter...It's almost like they give equal weight to the two sides...giving an excerpt of Robespierre justification of 'la Terreur', a little paragraph of Victor Hugo's view of him, another tiny one of his political ideas, then under his picture his description says ; known for his honesty and firmness of convictions....guillotined the day after he was arrested...There are no details of how many people were killed due to his ideas for example...In a separate two paragraphs about "la Terreur" there is one sentence which says "Des milliers de suspects sont traduits devant le tribunal révolutionnaire et guillotinés." It's very underplayed and there is lots of info about the "rights of man" document.

 

I don't want to mislead on Schama's book. He does use illustrations but its an adult book where the illustrations are in an inset or two, probably 20 - 30 at most.

 

 

 

ETA - this is from living in French speaking Switzerland

 

For Calvin's 300th anniversary, which was in 2009, they had lots of conferences, activities (play of his life), etc...but he's fairly poorly regarded as they tend to focus on his strictness and the people (some say as high as 57) who were executed while he was alive, even though he wasn't in the city's government per se, though the church did hold a lot of power at the time, and there were other factors related to the plague, etc..(if you search online you'll see lots of contradictory opinions about how responsible he really was)...Ok, I don't have a 9th grade book in front of me (they don't have grade by grade history books and for Jr Hi level have abandoned them pretty much completely because they think that gives the student the idea that there is a 'right' opinion about history and he should be comparing sources, etc - some of their ideas are quite interesting or could be, though I think history teachers can have their own agenda - but in the real life of students, I think they come away with little concrete history. They are in the process of reforming the school system so we'll see what they end up with later on). Though it would be 8th grade where they study that time period anyway - but only if the teacher finds it important - they have much more flexibility than the French. I don't know what depth they would go into since there is no book now...

 

Joan

 

I never get the whole, it was Calvin's fault in Geneva line of thinking. Calvin had significant opposition to his teaching in Geneva. Even Wikipedia alludes to it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_calvin#Reform_work_commences_.281536.E2.80.931538.29

 

He was forced out of the city for some years:

 

The Geneva council refused to readmit the two men, who took refuge in Basel. Subsequently Farel received an invitation to lead the church in Neuchâtel. Calvin was invited to lead a church of French refugees in Strasbourg by that city's leading reformers, Martin Bucer andWolfgang Capito. Initially Calvin refused because Farel was not included in the invitation, but relented when Bucer appealed to him. By September 1538 Calvin had taken up his new position in Strasbourg, fully expecting that this time it would be permanent; a few months later, he applied for and was granted citizenship of the city.^[21]

 

Then later on when he came back it was still a struggle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_calvin#Discipline_and_opposition_.281546.E2.80.931553.29

 

Calvin encountered bitter opposition to his work in Geneva. Around 1546, the uncoordinated forces coalesced into an identifiable group whom he referred to as the libertines, but who preferred to be called either Spirituels or Patriots.^[41][42] According to Calvin, these were people who felt that after being liberated through grace, they were exempted from both ecclesiastical and civil law. The group consisted of wealthy, politically powerful, and interrelated families of Geneva.^[43]

[Joan in GE]

I don't want to mislead on Schama's book. He does use illustrations but its an adult book where the illustrations are in an inset or two, probably 20 - 30 at most.

 

 

 

 

 

I never get the whole, it was Calvin's fault in Geneva line of thinking. Calvin had significant opposition to his teaching in Geneva. Even Wikipedia alludes to it:

http://en.wikipedia....E2.80.931538.29

 

He was forced out of the city for some years:

 

 

 

Then later on when he came back it was still a struggle:

http://en.wikipedia....E2.80.931553.29

 

 

Weeellll...it seems like he basically ruled the city from some articles...and was part of the decision-making of having at least one, if not more, of those in opposition, executed, afterwhich he didn't have opposition....

 

I think he was trying to do the best he could with the knowledge he had at the time, though I don't agree with all his theology. But I don't have time for scholarly searches at the moment to really back up everything.

 

It was interesting because there was a year long celebration of Rousseau's 300th birthday anniversary here last year and he is really glorified in a way and almost nothing is said of him putting his 5 children in an orphanage....

 

He did have some very interesting ideas and useful contributions....

eg he got moms breastfeeding again (don't know if he let his partner do it as I think the children were put out at a young age (really not sure of the age though))

he produced the first plant guide for laymen (picture of the flower with it's name, eg)

 

and other things that escape my memory at the moment....

 

Joan