Are IQ tests inaccurate for 2E children? (double posted with Accelerated)

[TravelingChris]

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Posted Today, 12:40 PM

I have three kids. They are all highly intelligent. Both dh and I were identified as gifted in PS and our tests scores and college/grad school educations and with dh, his career, all confirm the original identification. We have three biological children. Child one was first identified as moderately gifted as a four year old but later tested much higher when on proper amounts of ADHD medication. He was my one child with no LDs, just moderate ADHD. He was later identified as gt with one of the Talent Searches and got a Commended letter from SAT (which he would have been a Semi Finalist if we had stayed in NM).

 

Second child is severely ADHD, and has a peculiar LD- in that she sees and thinks in parts, not whole, and later on, composes the parts into a whole. I don';t know the name of this LD and would love it if someone could identify the name. I have asked several LD specialists and they all said they knew of the condition but couldn't recall the name. Anyhow, during her neuropsych evaluation, she was given a slightly above average IQ. I think that was a huge mistake because a person with a slightly above average IQ would not be getting better ACT scores than my identified gifted first kid (he did almost the same on both the SAT and ACt- his ACT score was one lower than hers and his SAT ((which she didn't take)) was slightly, and I do mean slightly, better. She wouldn't be able to write excellent arguments (briefs) in one or two minutes per page. She wouldn't be able to be a higher than 4.0 GPA student in college while taking honors classes and still keep on the honor roll while seizing during exams. No one who meets her thinks she is just slightly above average- everyone who meets her thinks she is very intelligent, like her brother.

 

Then we come to the third. She was also identified in a Talent Search as a gt. She has managed to score fairly well on earlier tests like Iowa. However, she is the most affected by her LD- she is dyslexic and was ADHD (inattentive) with no medication until recently when she was diagnosed. We haven't gotten the report from her neuropsych evaluation but did here the basic results. She scored in the 80s in parts of the IQ test and in mid 110s range in two other parts. That was part of where the diagnosis of dyslexia came from and the psychologist said that she would count her as having an IQ of around 114 or so. While this is a bit higher than her sister, it is significantly lower than both her parents and her brother. Again, the non test evidence seems to indicate she is much brighter than the test would have it. This is a kid who find physics easy and fun. Again, no one who talks with her in a conversation ever thinks she is anything but quite intelligent. In group settings where she was my only child in that group, it was clear that she was a GT. The quickness is the way she finds solutions for mechanical puzzles or how quickly she learns certain things and incorporates them just belies the testing.

 

So if I went by neuropsych testing, I would have them all at different levels- oldest being superior intelligence, middle being upper half of normal, and youngest being mildly gifted. However, I do not see them as very different at all. They all just have different areas of expertise.

 

 

What have others found with their 2E children?

[Pen]

My understanding is that Binet, who invented the idea of IQ and testing, believed it was not a fixed trait, and that he wanted the tests used to identify how to improve schools.

 

I think they are especially inaccurate for certain groups, of which 2e is one.

[Heathermomster]

With 2E students, you need the GAI aka General Ability Index score, to acertain a more accurate assessment of IQ. The GAI is based upon WISC-IV sub scores.

 

 

[Lecka]

My son has got a little of the "parts-to-whole" thing.

 

I am told it is suspected, for him, to be related to problems with crossing the mid-line.

 

The way he copies shapes (in parts) reflects that the OT thought.

 

Like -- a circle with lines dividing it into 8 sections, he tried to copy by drawing little triangle pieces on one side and then the other. Also a plus sign he used to draw as a backwards L, then a line to the right and a line down. Those are examples for him (and I guess that one also makes it seem to be related to crossing the midline).

 

I had though it might be a "gestalt image" thing, but reading about that, it does not sound like my son.

 

My son is smart but I don't know that it would show up on an IQ test. They test what they test, same with SAT. In the back section of Overcoming Dyslexia (iirc, maybe another book) she talks about high-level scientists who scored average or worse on IQ and achievement tests when they were younger.

 

Edit: I don't know what it was called besides "parts-to-whole," either.

[Lecka]

Edit: Going to add, my son has got a problem identified now where his eyes "jump" as he crosses the mid-line, so a tracking problem. The OT and dev. optometrist see the same thing. I am pursuing OT for him right now for logistical reasons, but VT is on my radar. I don't have any definite reason to think it would not have been better to start with VT and then do OT (given that I am not willing to do a lot at the same time).

 

He also had examples in his writing where the OT thought he had a left and right side to his letters. Like - the left and right sides of the letters not touching. I do not think it is too noticable, but I could see what she meant when she pointed it out.

 

For my son ---- he is awesome with Legos, he is strong in math concepts (so far, he is in 2nd grade). So for him at least -- I am confident it is not NVLD. I think he has dyslexia but not really for reasons related to this.

 

Also -- I am pretty sure the test with the copying of shapes, was called the Beery test for Visual-Motor Integration.

[TravelingChris]

Yes, what I have read for NVLD doesn't sound like her at all. She had no problems with math at all, expect that it takes her a bit longer. But once she gets double time, she has been getting straight A's in pre-calc and Trig. Also, she has no problems with writing essays or reading textbooks. In fact, that one writes essays that are good in such a short time which is why I don't believe the average IQ for her. She also doesn't have any difficulty reading expressions or understanding humor. What she has is a delay in some of these things. Like her brain looks at a picture one way but also sees it as a whole but can't put it together into her consciousness as a whole without a time delay.

Interesting that you talk about vision therapy. That one had a convergence disorder that wasn't identified (not for my lack of trying over and over again) until she was 8. Then she got prism glasses, did VT exercises, and within a few years, didn't need them anymore. BUt I wonder if the double vision she had from birth to age 8.5 made her brain different and caused her to look at parts more closely.

 

The younger one has issues with some kinds of memory (random) but excellent memory for contextual ideas or scenes- in fact, much better than average. She just can't remember random facts or data. It probably is why she has such issues with spelling in English. Plus her reversals don't help any either.

[Tokyomarie]

With 2E students, you need the GAI aka General Ability Index score, to acertain a more accurate assessment of IQ. The GAI is based upon WISC-IV sub scores.

 

 

Even the GAI isn't all that helpful for some kiddos. The GAI is most helpful when the weaknesses are mainly confined to Working Memory or Processing Speed subtests, since those subtests are not used in calculating the GAI. If there is significant scatter within the other composite areas- ie strong & weak Verbal Comprehension subtests and/or strong and weak Perceptual Reasoning subtests, the GAI may look very average even though there are areas of significant strength. For such kids, the best indication of giftedness on assessment may come from individual subtest scores and from looking at other tests of memory, problem solving, and academic achievement.

 

When my son was assessed, I asked our evaluator what test scores were the best indicators of his true academic potential and the one test he pointed to was not from the IQ.

[khall]

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Posted Today, 12:40 PM

I have three kids. They are all highly intelligent. Both dh and I were identified as gifted in PS and our tests scores and college/grad school educations and with dh, his career, all confirm the original identification. We have three biological children. Child one was first identified as moderately gifted as a four year old but later tested much higher when on proper amounts of ADHD medication. He was my one child with no LDs, just moderate ADHD. He was later identified as gt with one of the Talent Searches and got a Commended letter from SAT (which he would have been a Semi Finalist if we had stayed in NM).

 

Second child is severely ADHD, and has a peculiar LD- in that she sees and thinks in parts, not whole, and later on, composes the parts into a whole. I don';t know the name of this LD and would love it if someone could identify the name. I have asked several LD specialists and they all said they knew of the condition but couldn't recall the name. Anyhow, during her neuropsych evaluation, she was given a slightly above average IQ. I think that was a huge mistake because a person with a slightly above average IQ would not be getting better ACT scores than my identified gifted first kid (he did almost the same on both the SAT and ACt- his ACT score was one lower than hers and his SAT ((which she didn't take)) was slightly, and I do mean slightly, better. She wouldn't be able to write excellent arguments (briefs) in one or two minutes per page. She wouldn't be able to be a higher than 4.0 GPA student in college while taking honors classes and still keep on the honor roll while seizing during exams. No one who meets her thinks she is just slightly above average- everyone who meets her thinks she is very intelligent, like her brother.

 

Then we come to the third. She was also identified in a Talent Search as a gt. She has managed to score fairly well on earlier tests like Iowa. However, she is the most affected by her LD- she is dyslexic and was ADHD (inattentive) with no medication until recently when she was diagnosed. We haven't gotten the report from her neuropsych evaluation but did here the basic results. She scored in the 80s in parts of the IQ test and in mid 110s range in two other parts. That was part of where the diagnosis of dyslexia came from and the psychologist said that she would count her as having an IQ of around 114 or so. While this is a bit higher than her sister, it is significantly lower than both her parents and her brother. Again, the non test evidence seems to indicate she is much brighter than the test would have it. This is a kid who find physics easy and fun. Again, no one who talks with her in a conversation ever thinks she is anything but quite intelligent. In group settings where she was my only child in that group, it was clear that she was a GT. The quickness is the way she finds solutions for mechanical puzzles or how quickly she learns certain things and incorporates them just belies the testing.

 

So if I went by neuropsych testing, I would have them all at different levels- oldest being superior intelligence, middle being upper half of normal, and youngest being mildly gifted. However, I do not see them as very different at all. They all just have different areas of expertise.

 

 

What have others found with their 2E children?

My daughter's neuropsych called it an invalid suppressed IQ. Most of her scores were quite high, with a couple of scores near 80. When they use the formula to get an IQ from all the scores, the low scores pull her high scores down to just slightly above average. The neuropsych said that score does not accurately reflect anything about her. She's extremely intelligent with a major learning disability, and she doesn't function at all like a person with a slightly above average IQ.

[Butter]

The psychologist who did Wil's testing said that his IQ was about 10 points lower than it should have been. For him, because he has dyslexia as his other E, the GAI adjusted well to his actual ability. She said most 2E kids will most definitely have a lower IQ score than they would without the LD.

[FairProspects]

They definitely can be unless you have a neuropsych or psych who knows how to account for LDs in the testing.

 

My ds's subtest scores were all clustered within a few points of one another with the exception of one subtest, vocabulary, which was 40% points off the others. The neuropsych ran more another subtest which correlated with the original subtests and concluded that ds's dyslexia & word recall issues were artificially lowering his score on that one subtest. Without that info, the scores would have read differently.

[merry gardens]

Thanks for posting this question and for double posting it both here and on the accelerated board!

 

Everyone's answers and stories are quite interesting! I also really enjoyed reading the postings over on the accelerated board. I encourage anyone reading this thread to check out that board's response to the same question. I often focus so much on the disabilities, it's refreshing to read how much we share in common with accelerated learners.

 

I strongly suspect two of my children are 2e. I have eight children, and most of them come across as bright. My two with diagnosed learning disorders come across as "average kids", sometimes sounding smart and other times not. Their broad range in their standardized tests scores why I suspect they're 2e. (Although....as science and math require more reading those score fell, and as the reading & spelling are remediated, those scores rise.) They haven't had formal IQ tests or neuro-psych evals, but we've had enough testing to know that there are language processing disorders. I often wish we had neuro-psych evals, but--because of the cost and failure to find someone locally with 2e experience--we haven't.

 

For my most challenged child, his skills can vary greatly day-by-day. If he's coming down with a cold, it shows as we do his school work the day before the obvious symptoms of a cold! Even if we did have a full blown neuro-psych evaluation with someone familiar with 2E, his testing and IQ scores would probably only be able to show how he performed on the day of the test (or tests.) If he tested on a day when he was in poor health, the results wouldn't come anywhere even close to his best abilities!

 

If I hadn't learned so much about learning disorders because of the one that struggles the most, I would never have suspected a learning disorder in his slightly older brother-- or my husband. My 14 yo son really comes off as an average kid. So did my husband. My husband excells as an engineer, and as the years go by, his talents become more obvious

 

Someone wrote a response to this question on the accelerated learner board about how the IQ may have shown an accurate result at the time, but how it didn't capture the potential. I suspect that many 2e kids (and many chidren with learning challenges in general) are late bloomers. 2e's may even have an advantage later in life over people who did well in school without trying--because the 2e's learn to work hard for success. Hard work combined with ability can go far in life!

[Tiramisu]

I also had one who I thought was 2E and had her ps teacher suggest it as well. Her IQ test did not show that she was gifted. We've had two IQ tests, the most recent one did not include all sections so I can't compare all areas. However, there was quite a significant difference on the scores from the tests from different years so I don't know what to think. The NP would not give either a FSIQ or a GAI in her case. I think weaknesses in visual processing, as evidenced by the subtest scores and other tests, interfere with accurate testing. Like the OP mentioned in her dd, ours also outperforms her IQ. At the same time, the weaknesses are obvious, too.

[Slipper]

I have known my best friend for nearly 12 years. Her son was diagnosed with autism and was functionally non-verbal when he was three years old. With a lot of work, he became verbal but has always been just a bit 'off' or Asperger type tendencies in his behavior. He doesn't catch on to jokes easily and is a target for bullies. He was always good in math but struggled in other subjects, including English. His iq test (four years ago) was average. Actually, it was on the low end of average. My friend always felt he was much smarter than his iq test revealed. He recently received his ACT scores and made a 29 (including a perfect score in one of the math sub-sections). We were all (including my friend) stunned as the pre-test hadn't indicated anything this high. This was his first time to take it.

 

I understand that IQ tests help determine a 'gifted' child, but I feel they are misleading. IQ's can change over time and, in the case of my friend, may not be a good measurement for children when there are other factors involved.

[TheReader]

Our evaluator pointed out in her test results that the IQ was not a valid/accurate reflection of his true ability, due to all the LDs and such. His scores on the subtests were all over the place -- in one section he scored 5% and 25%; in another, he scored 97% and 78% (percentiles being the same-age comparison percentiles, i.,e. where his score falls when ranked against other kids his same age). It completely shot his actual overall IQ, which averaged out at 'normal' range.