Resources for those who teach Creation

[jetted4]

Just want to set the ground rules first. If you believe that humanity was created by Jehovah God and that He wants to be in a personal relationship with us, then this thread is for you. If you don't, then please do not post; this thread is not for you.

 

I thought I would start a new thread for those who would like to see a list of resources that explain support for Creation as an explanation for Origins but don't want to have to wade through all the "extras" in a recent thread in order to find it.

 

Below are the items I had suggested. I will ask my dh (a physical-chemist) to provide a few more before the end of the weekend. Anyone who posted resources before (or even if you didn't), can you please re-post here?

 

1) Phillip Johnson's book, "Darwin on Trial", is exceptional. He is a lawyer and analyzes all of the evidence offered in support of evolution from the point of view of whether the evidence could hold up in court. Very well done.

 

2) Also, there is a series of videos that are great for elementary ages done by a biologist who was a staunch evolutionist, but some of his students challenged him to take a deep look at his own field of biology to see whether it supports evolution. He became a creationist as a result.

 

Here's the first one: http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/B000E3LGDS

Emphasis is on the "irreducible complexity" of the creatures

 

3) "Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution" by Michael Behe - Never read this, but I know I've heard of it and I just saw from the description that it covers Intelligent Design ("the argument that nature exhibits evidence of design, beyond Darwinian randomness"). Since I haven't read it, I have no idea of the quality or how easy or hard to read it may be.

[alisoncooks]

:bigear:

[Oakblossoms]

Thanks! That thread drove me bonkers. Do we have a social group?

[jetted4]

Thanks! That thread drove me bonkers. Do we have a social group?

 

Someone mentioned "Bible Believing Christians" to me in a PM, but I don't know anything about social groups, so not sure where to find it.

[Dory]

Thanks so much for this.

[warneral]

 

 

Someone mentioned "Bible Believing Christians" to me in a PM, but I don't know anything about social groups, so not sure where to find it.

 

 

Thanks! Social groups is on the top blue tab. I found it after browsing social groups :)

[jetted4]

I did a quick skim thru the 1st 2 pages of the old thread and copied a few of the recommended resources below. If yours isn't in the list, please add. :-)

>>>>>>>>

I've been reading Dr. Jay Wile's blog, and he focuses more on scientific rather than theological topics

http://blog.drwile.com/

 

Just yesterday, he had a blog post where someone asked him why he believed in creationism. I felt his answer was well put - listing some factors that point toward evolution, but also those that point toward creationism. It's the first (bolded) question on the page.

http://blog.drwile.com/?p=10275

>>>>>>>>>

http://www.icr.org/ (Institute for Creation Research)

>>>>>>>>>

have heard good things about Evolution: The Grand Experiment by Dr. Carl Werner. It sounds like you are looking for a presentation of facts supporting both sides so that your dc can make up their own mind and/or be able to defend their belief in Creation. Lee Strobel's book The Case for a Creator is also good.

>>>>>>>>>

There are some great videos and information here. He spoke at our church and he had most of the audience slack jawed at what he had to say. Amazing, learned man!

 

http://www.magisreasonfaith.org/

 

I love their tag line: Explaining the harmony among Faith, Physics, and Philosophy.

>>>>>>>>>

have you seen reasons.org? They are old earth creation, scientific, but not evolutionary in their approach.

>>>>>>>>>

Here are some we used when studying evolution:

• http://www.discovery.org/
  
• http://www.reasons.org/
  
• http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/index.html
  

 

The book: It Couldn't Just Happen, by Lawrence O. Richards (Amazon)

>>>>>>>>

A friend just tagged me with a trailer for this book. I have no idea of how good it is or where he stands, but I'm pretty sure it's on the side of dinosaurs and man lived at the same time, which would infer Young Earth: "Chronicles of Dinosauria: The History & Mystery of Dinosaurs and Man"

(trailer for the above book)

[HejKatt]

Someone mentioned "Bible Believing Christians" to me in a PM, but I don't know anything about social groups, so not sure where to find it.

 

Here's a link to the Bible Believing Christians group:

http://forums.welltr...ing-christians/

[Erin]

what a hurtful, mean thing to say... :(

 

As though the 25% of Evangelical Christians (Bible-Believing, if you will) who support evolution don't "believe that humanity was created by Jehovah God and that He wants to be in a personal relationship with us," just because we see His Creation differently than you?? And that's not even getting in to 50-60% of mainline Protestants, or Catholics...

 

Why couldn't you just say that it is specifically for literal creationists??

Why add on the snarky comments, as though we can't possibly be as saved as you are?

[Erin]

double post

[mom31257]

what a hurtful, mean thing to say... :(

 

As though the 25% of Evangelical Christians (Bible-Believing, if you will) who support evolution don't "believe that humanity was created by Jehovah God and that He wants to be in a personal relationship with us," just because we see His Creation differently than you?? And that's not even getting in to 50-60% of mainline Protestants, or Catholics...

 

Why couldn't you just say that it is specifically for literal creationists??

Why add on the snarky comments, as though we can't possibly be as saved as you are?

 

 

Where does it say you aren't as saved as she is?

[Erin]

Either you believe in the literal creation (the purpose of the thread), or you don't "believe that humanity was created by Jehovah God and that He wants to be in a personal relationship with us."

 

There are millions of us who believe God created us and wants a personal relationship, but don't believe in the 6, 24hr day creation.

 

I opened this thread because I like to read what makes people think the way they do. But that first paragraph is just mean.

[jetted4]

Either you believe in the literal creation (the purpose of the thread), or you don't "believe that humanity was created by Jehovah God and that He wants to be in a personal relationship with us."

 

There are millions of us who believe God created us and wants a personal relationship, but don't believe in the 6, 24hr day creation.

 

I opened this thread because I like to read what makes people think the way they do. But that first paragraph is just mean.

 

Erin, I am sorry that my thread didn't come across more clearly. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether someone is saved nor was there even the slightest hint of malice or ill will toward evolutionary Christians lurking beneath. I am just asking that only the subset who believe both that God created humanity (creationist) and also believe that He wants a personal relationship with us participate. The focus is on resources that support Creation, not a debate over whether Creation or Evolution wins the arm wrestling match.

 

I was trying hard to find a phrasing that would make it clear what the focus was so that it wouldn't get derailed the way the other thread did; I am sorry that it didn't come across the way it was intended.

[AimeeM]

 

Erin, I am sorry that my thread didn't come across more clearly. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether someone is saved nor was there even the slightest hint of malice or ill will toward evolutionary Christians lurking beneath. I am just asking that only the subset who believe both that God created humanity (creationist) and also believe that He wants a personal relationship with us participate. The focus is on resources that support Creation, not a debate over whether Creation or Evolution wins the arm wrestling match.

 

I was trying hard to find a phrasing that would make it clear what the focus was so that it wouldn't get derailed the way the other thread did; I am sorry that it didn't come across the way it was intended.

*kindly*

I think the issue is that those of us reading the thread title were a bit misled - I do believe in creation, but also evolution. I am a Christian (Catholic to be specific) and I am also old earth - the context of your post isn't what your title indicates the post will be about. Your title asserts christians who believe in creation, but your post body makes it clear that you are only interested in resources for literal 6 day, young earth creation resources... which is fine, but it did come across a bit misleading for those of us theistic evolutionists/old earth creationists.

[Susie in MS]

I like most anything from Answers in Genesis (though I know that won't win me any brownie points on this forum). You mentioned so many good resources for adults and older kids that I thought I would mention one for younger kids. My dd would watch Six Short Days, One Big Adventure often and be engulfed each time.

 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/store/product/creation-adventure-team-2-pack/?sku=40-1-128

[WishboneDawn]

I'm one of the Christians who accept evolution Andrea and I'm not offended. I think you meant more to put the breaks on some of the people in the other thread who you knew weren't Christians then make a comment about what a real Christian is.

 

Just for future reference though it's often your fellow Christians that are the worst troublemakers here on the pro-evolution front so you should warn us away too. :D ;)

[jetted4]

*kindly*

I think the issue is that those of us reading the thread title were a bit misled - I do believe in creation, but also evolution. I am a Christian (Catholic to be specific) and I am also old earth - the context of your post isn't what your title indicates the post will be about. Your title asserts christians who believe in creation, but your post body makes it clear that you are only interested in resources for literal 6 day, young earth creation resources... which is fine, but it did come across a bit misleading for those of us theistic evolutionists/old earth creationists.

 

Actually, I had no opinion at all on young earth vs old earth...If God created man very long ago or only a few thousand years ago, it's still creation. I guess I didn't realize there would be so many things I should clarify up front. :-)

 

I was just looking to compile resources that support Creation...whether they also promote young earth or old earth - either way is fine.

[jetted4]

Well...to clarify, I am still contrasting creation and evolution. This is meant to be a place to compile resources on a literal creation regardless of when it took place (as opposed to resources that might say God allowed evolution and then added a soul to man later on).

[jetted4]

ok...I have another resource to add courtesy of my dh:

This one is by a creationist who is also old earth

Hugh Ross's book Creator in the Cosmos:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Creator-Cosmos-Scientific-Discoveries/dp/1576832880/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1367634812&sr=8-6&keywords=creator+in+the+cosmos

 

Since my dh is a staunch creationist and considers "old earth" scientifically plausible, I didn't realize that people would assume if I said creation I also meant young earth. Please feel free to post either young earth or old earth resources as long as they support a literal creation and not <evolution then soul added later>.

[Marylou]

If you read far enough in this article you'll get to this gem: "Sticking food in your ear will not work . . "

 

http://www.newgeology.us/presentation32.html

[Susie in MS]

I love the youtube link of the book preview. I went to amazon and checked it out. It looks very good and not overwhelming. On those same lines there is a huge picture book with lots of flip books called Dragons: Legends and lore of Dinosaurs.. It is also by Master Books.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Dragons-Legends-Dinosaurs-Laura-Welch/dp/0890515581/ref=pd_sim_b_5

[blondchen]

I posted this on another thread (one of the recent controversial ones!) and I'll post it again here for those who may not have seen it. An excellent article/paper by Pastor Tim Keller on reconciling many of the issues involved with creation and evolution. Dr. Keller is brilliant, and his writing drips with grace and humility and pastoral concern. I was blown away with his approach, and I consider this to be a must-read for any Christian who is interested in these issues.

 

http://biologos.org/uploads/projects/Keller_white_paper.pdf

[Erin]

It was an EXCELLENT read. Thanks so much for sharing!

[Georgiana Daniels]

I second Dr. Carl Werner's books--both of them. Evolution: The Grand Experiment, and Living Fossils: Evolution the Grand Experiment.

[HejKatt]

what a hurtful, mean thing to say... :(

 

As though the 25% of Evangelical Christians (Bible-Believing, if you will) who support evolution don't "believe that humanity was created by Jehovah God and that He wants to be in a personal relationship with us," just because we see His Creation differently than you?? And that's not even getting in to 50-60% of mainline Protestants, or Catholics...

 

Why couldn't you just say that it is specifically for literal creationists??

Why add on the snarky comments, as though we can't possibly be as saved as you are?

 

 

Erin, I'm the one who linked the BBC group and I am sorry if it came across as drawing a line in the sand. At the time I posted, I thought about saying that Bible Believing group means just what it says, i.e. Christians who believe in the Bible; YEC is not a criteria to join the group, let alone a salvation issue. But I was posting in a hurry, and I left it as that. So I want to apologize if I gave exactly the opposite impression which was hurtful.

[HejKatt]

Does God Exist? is another ministry that examines science and faith together, they hold an OEC view. Their materials are free, including a monthly magazine and various books and DVDs that can be viewed online. All materials are free for loan, although there may be a fee for some - the fee is refunded when the materials are returned.

http://www.doesgodexist.org/

[raceNzanesmom]

We use HOD which has it's own list of resources. We also attend of very apologetics strong church full of resources. Many come from AiG, Creation and Creation Truth.

[Erin]

Andrea, I'm not entirely sure what "evolution then soul added later" means, but I'll take you at your word that you're not trying to create division amongst Believers. :)

[joannqn]

Explore Evoluion - Gives the major arguments for evolution and then replies to them. This book does not mention God at all. It is written by Intelligent Designers, and it seems apparent that they agree with old earth because they don't refute age issues or dating techniques at all.

 

Science Shepherd Biology - Biology curriculum. Author says he is a Christian and states that the textbook is written without being muddled by world view at all with the exception of three chapters. Those three chapters explore Creation v. Evolution and shows how the evidence points towards Creation.

[jetted4]

Andrea, I'm not entirely sure what "evolution then soul added later" means, but I'll take you at your word that you're not trying to create division amongst Believers. :)

 

In my attempt to clarify, it was just meant in my quick distinction to be a concise (perhaps, too concise?) way of saying what I have been told by someone who was a Christian but believed in evolution: That God allowed evolution to take its course and then at some point breathed a soul into man and that that's the beginning of humanity's personal relationship with Him. Since it's second hand, I may have misinterpreted...

[jetted4]

 

In my attempt to clarify, it was just meant in my quick distinction to be a concise (perhaps, too concise?) way of saying what I have been told by someone who was a Christian but believed in evolution: That God allowed evolution to take its course and then at some point breathed a soul into man and that that's the beginning of humanity's personal relationship with Him. Since it's second hand, I may have misinterpreted...

 

Ummm...I think I am being clear when I write something, but then later on I start to second guess myself. I definitely was not trying to create any division. Since my own "bent" is Christian creationist , I am working with 2nd hand info in trying to capture the Christian evolutionist perspective. Basically, since my goals with the thread were less clear to start with than I had realized, I was trying (but not necessarily successfully) to give a brief snippet of what I understood the 2 perspectives to be so that saying I was looking for "creation" resources would be clearer. If I completely blew it and managed to offend fellow believers, I do apologize.

[jetted4]

We use HOD which has it's own list of resources. We also attend of very apologetics strong church full of resources. Many come from AiG, Creation and Creation Truth.

 

I am still learning the acronyms...what's HOD?

[Susie in MS]

 

I am still learning the acronyms...what's HOD?

 

 

Heart of Dakota. It is what we have started using again.

 

http://www.heartofdakota.com/

[Delighted3]

A couple of resources for teachers that I came across while reading the "Classical Conversations" catalog:

Defeating Darwinism by Phillip Johnson

The Soul of Science by Nancy Pearcey and Charles Thaxton

I haven't read them personally, but they look interesting.

[blondchen]

 

Ummm...I think I am being clear when I write something, but then later on I start to second guess myself. I definitely was not trying to create any division. Since my own "bent" is Christian creationist , I am working with 2nd hand info in trying to capture the Christian evolutionist perspective. Basically, since my goals with the thread were less clear to start with than I had realized, I was trying (but not necessarily successfully) to give a brief snippet of what I understood the 2 perspectives to be so that saying I was looking for "creation" resources would be clearer. If I completely blew it and managed to offend fellow believers, I do apologize.

 

 

I was not offended, but I appreciate these helpful clarifications. :)

 

I think that the heart of creationism is believing that GOD created the universe out of nothing by His own divine agency (in the case of Christians and Jews it would be Yahweh, the God of the Bible). THAT is the absolute, irrefutable claim of the Bible, regardless of how you interpret Genesis 1-2 or anything else. With agreement on that, the specific manner in which He created (how and when) is the only thing in question. Considering that the Bible is not concerned with natural science as we know it, and has far more significant issues to address (such as God's plan of redemption and the person and work of Christ!), if we would instead focus on the primary issues that the Bible does address in detail, we could treat the how/when of creation as a secondary issue. Then we could graciously discuss these issues with the goal of bringing glory our God and using our ever-expanding understanding of the natural world to see God more and more for who He is and marvel at His greatness.

 

Since my own "bent" is Christian creationist , I am working with 2nd hand info in trying to capture the Christian evolutionist perspective.

 

There's a false dichotomy here. I'm sure I'm as much a creationist as you are, but I also accept the scientific evidence for evolution and believe that it is entirely compatible with the truth of scripture (and believe me, I have a high view of scripture). I'm not sure that I'd be called an "evolutionist" per se (since that is a loaded term), but let's be careful to not speak of this as creationism versus evolution. My belief in evolutionary processes does not make me one iota less a creationist.

 

Please read the Tim Keller paper I linked to in my previous post, if you haven't already done so. His perspective on these issues will be very eye-opening regarding Christians who accept evolution.

[jetted4]

 

There's a false dichotomy here. I'm sure I'm as much a creationist as you are, but I also accept the scientific evidence for evolution and believe that it is entirely compatible with the truth of scripture (and believe me, I have a high view of scripture).

 

I didn't realize that Christians who allow for evolution would also consider themselves creationists...so I guess I am really not sure how to distinguish between the two for the purposes of soliciting resources targeted for one belief set vs the other.

 

And, yes, it is definitely a secondary issue, with God's redemption thru Jesus being of primary importance.

 

So just to clarify, for those who care what origins processes are being supported...is the Keller article supporting evolution then? (I will read it myself within the next couple of days, but figured clarification for other readers on the thread would be good)

 

Thanks :-)

[Erin]

I didn't realize that Christians who allow for evolution would also consider themselves creationists...

Of course! God still created everything, the disagreement comes down to method and timing.

Most likely, you're a "literal" creationist in that you think He had to do it in a timeframe and process that you can understand. That is, formed literally from dust, like playdoh and in 6, 24hr days, right?

 

But a Christian who supports evolutionary processes thinks He used a timeframe that He understands, but that I might not necessarily. As well as a process that is continually being revealed. Is. 55:8-9

[blondchen]

I didn't realize that Christians who allow for evolution would also consider themselves creationists...so I guess I am really not sure how to distinguish between the two for the purposes of soliciting resources targeted for one belief set vs the other.

There are many views contained within creationism. As far as I know, only the young-earth creationist view (six 24-hour days) automatically excludes evolution. That's not to say that old-earth creationists do or must believe in evolution, it's just that believing in an old earth is what opens up the mere possibility. Keller does a great job of explaining this distinction, by the way.

 

And, yes, it is definitely a secondary issue, with God's redemption thru Jesus being of primary importance.

:)

 

So just to clarify, for those who care what origins processes are being supported...is the Keller article supporting evolution then? (I will read it myself within the next couple of days, but figured clarification for other readers on the thread would be good)

Tim Keller is a conservative, evangelical, old-earth creationist, and in this article, he shows how certain scientific data and aspects of evolution can be accepted without doing violence to the intent of the scriptures. I was floored when I first read it (several months ago) - Keller is a master at getting to the heart of an issue and clearly explaining his conclusions.

 

Here's an excerpt from the introduction:

 

 

Many secular and many evangelical voices agree on one ‘truism’—that if you are an orthodox

Christian with a high view of the authority of the Bible, you cannot believe in evolution in any form at all.

New Atheist authors such as Richard Dawkins and creationist writers such as Ken Ham seem to have arrived

at consensus on this, and so more and more in the general population are treating it as given. If you believe

in God, you can’t believe in evolution. If you believe in evolution, you can’t believe in God.

 

This creates a problem for both doubters and believers. Many believers in western culture see the

medical and technological advances achieved through science and are grateful for them. They have a very

positive view of science. How then, can they reconcile what science seems to tell them about evolution with

their traditional theological beliefs? Seekers and inquirers about Christianity can be even more perplexed.

They may be drawn to many things about the Christian faith, but, they say, “I don’t see how I can believe the

Bible if that means I have to reject science.â€

 

However, there are many who question the premise that science and faith are irreconcilable. Many

believe that a high view of the Bible does not demand belief in just one account of origins. They argue that

we do not have to choose between an anti-science religion or an anti-religious science. They think that

there are a variety of ways in which God could have brought about the creation of life forms and human life

using evolutionary processes, and that the picture of incompatibility between orthodox faith and

evolutionary biology is greatly overdrawn.

[Marylou]

deleted

[jetted4]

Ummm...it seems like this thread has taken an unintended turn in direction. All of my mix-ups in trying to define "creationists" vs "evolutionists" are probably the cause.

 

Though I do plan to read the most recent additions to this thread, it really is intended to be a warehouse for materials of interest to literal creationist who do not believe that evolution factors into the process.

 

And as far as I know, Hugh Ross (Creator in the Cosmos) is a literal creationist; however, he is willing to consider that that literal creation may have taken place much longer ago than the young earth camp requires (I am pretty sure that he covers how a Big Bang is perfectly consistent w a literal creation). My husband (a scientist) is open to old earth, but based on his own investigations of the evolutionary claims regarding origins and the data used to support them, remains unimpressed by the science behind it and finds support for a literal creation far more compelling. This is not meant to spark a debate about which camp is right...just mentioning b/c a prev post brought up the question of whether all old earth creationists leave themselves open to the prospect of evolution. The answer is, no. Some who embrace OE are still very much literal creationists - so OEC materials can potentially still fit into the resource pool for this thread.

 

Thanks to all for all of the feedback/materials provided. :-)

[blondchen]

Though I do plan to read the most recent additions to this thread, it really is intended to be a warehouse for materials of interest to literal creationist who do not believe that evolution factors into the process.

 

There we go. I'm not sure that "literal creationist" is the best term for what you're referring to (as I also believe that God "literally" created the universe), but indeed, this final clarification is the most helpful. I totally understand where you're coming from with regard to your original intentions and the direction of the thread. In any case, I hope that much of what has been posted turns out to be valuable for you, and that it at least has given you a better understanding of where some of your fellow Christians land on the spectrum.

 

Blessings. :)

 

ETA: I don't mean to cause confusion about the "literal" issue in my second sentence above - just pointing out how important it is to be careful when labeling a point of view as an "-ism" or a person as an "-ist". I can see how difficult that is in regard to these issues, since people's views are all over the map, and definitions are often not standardized. I have strong beliefs about many things, but I am not fond of labels for myself (other than being a Christian, as in a follower of Christ) because it might give others a false impression of my own views, which often do not reflect what the "-ism" seems to indicate. And though I accept certain things about evolution, I'm not sure I'm comfortable being defined as an "evolutionary creationist". Your explanation in bold is a really good way of making the distinction you were getting at, and I'm so glad you thought to phrase it that way. I thought of suggesting "non-evolutionary creationist" as an alternative to "literal creationist", but I don't like it when people are labeled according to what they're against. Hope that makes sense.

[Marylou]

Ummm...it seems like this thread has taken an unintended turn in direction. All of my mix-ups in trying to define "creationists" vs "evolutionists" are probably the cause.

 

 

 

I apologize, OP, if you meant the article I had posted previously about evolutionists understanding creationists in order to convert them. I removed it but will PM it to anyone who is interested. I believe the author of that article was referring to non-creationist evolutionists.

 

And I do believe that I have never written that word in my life until now!

[Marylou]

blondchen, Do you believe God used "chance" in creating? This is not a trick question. Depending on your answer, I have another question!

[blondchen]

blondchen, Do you believe God used "chance" in creating? This is not a trick question. Depending on your answer, I have another question!

 

No. I believe that the universe was created solely by God's divine agency, however that may look to us.

[Marylou]

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Of course! God still created everything, the disagreement comes down to method and timing.

Most likely, you're a "literal" creationist in that you think He had to do it in a timeframe and process that you can understand. That is, formed literally from dust, like playdoh and in 6, 24hr days, right?

 

But a Christian who supports evolutionary processes thinks He used a timeframe that He understands, but that I might not necessarily. As well as a process that is continually being revealed. Is. 55:8-9

 

So would you consider yourself a Theistic Evolutionist?

[Erin]

No. I'm a Christian.

I really don't identify myself by scientific theories I support. I mean, I'm not a Gravitationist, just because I accept the theory of gravity...

[Marylou]

No. I'm a Christian.

I really don't identify myself by scientific theories I support. I mean, I'm not a Gravitationist, just because I accept the theory of gravity...

 

 

Obviously I meant do you identify with what a Theistic Evolutionist believes? But I'll just leave it at that. This is a thread about resources :001_smile: