Online college

[Jane in NC]

 

I think this may be the key. We're in Engineering circles and employers want to know kids worked on things (projects, labs, etc). I don't think they particularly care about "the college experience," but it's a great way to know if the graduate was actually on campus working with the equipment, etc. Many are also turning to interns (to hire) - who they get from campuses they already respect.

My husband's employer hires posses of engineering interns every summer. Many of are from NCSU, others from UNC-Charlotte and NCA&T. These kids come from well known engineering programs and have advisors who are also known writing letters of recommendations.

 

Are there online engineering degrees? I cannot imagine how the lab experiences and group projects are duplicated but perhaps I just lack the vision thing.

[Parrothead]

I don't know if one can get the complete degree online but Stanford offers online engineering courses.

 

If one googles "online engineering degree" there are a lot of hits. Some from for profit colleges such as deVry, but it seems some of the well respected brick and mortar schools offer at least some engineering courses.

[creekland]

My husband's employer hires posses of engineering interns every summer. Many of are from NCSU, others from UNC-Charlotte and NCA&T. These kids come from well known engineering programs and have advisors who are also known writing letters of recommendations.

 

Are there online engineering degrees? I cannot imagine how the lab experiences and group projects are duplicated but perhaps I just lack the vision thing.

 

Around here the favored schools are Penn St and Va Tech.

 

I don't know if one can get the complete degree online but Stanford offers online engineering courses.

 

If one googles "online engineering degree" there are a lot of hits. Some from for profit colleges such as deVry, but it seems some of the well respected brick and mortar schools offer at least some engineering courses.

 

Most states require engineers to keep up their skills (and keep up with changes in life) by continuing education courses. Many of these are done online and it's not a problem (like any other advanced degree option, but these are just to keep a license, not to get an advanced degree). Some are classes in person - esp if it deals with totally new regs or something. It all depends upon what they are dealing with, BUT these are already people with their degrees, not folks just learning the basics.

[Parrothead]

 

 

 

 

Most states require engineers to keep up their skills (and keep up with changes in life) by continuing education courses. Many of these are done online and it's not a problem (like any other advanced degree option, but these are just to keep a license, not to get an advanced degree). Some are classes in person - esp if it deals with totally new regs or something. It all depends upon what they are dealing with, BUT these are already people with their degrees, not folks just learning the basics.

 

Oh, I see.

 

The only person I know who ever pursued an engineering degree changed his major to business. He's working on an MBA now.

[Dicentra]

Are there online engineering degrees? I cannot imagine how the lab experiences and group projects are duplicated but perhaps I just lack the vision thing.

 

I was wondering the same thing about online B.Sc. degrees - particularly in Chem. How can a student have any wet lab experience in Chem at the university level without attending a brick & mortar building at least part of the time? I have a fairly extensive collection of lab equipment at home here for my dd for homeschooling high school but nothing even approaching what was available at the Chem Dept. when I was at university.

 

Maybe wet labs aren't even done anymore. Is it all virtual - even if a student attends a brick & mortar university? That would be sad. :(

[mrs.m]

My husband's employer hires posses of engineering interns every summer. Many of are from NCSU, others from UNC-Charlotte and NCA&T. These kids come from well known engineering programs and have advisors who are also known writing letters of recommendations.

 

Are there online engineering degrees? I cannot imagine how the lab experiences and group projects are duplicated but perhaps I just lack the vision thing.

 

Yes, my DH has his graduate degree in Systems Engineering. My brother does as well and works for a major engineering company the builds planes and various military equipment. They both took the course online/remote and did group projects remotely with other class participants. As I stated earlier, these projects trained him to work in a remote business setting for a company that is both national and international. DH maintains that this extra special training (combined with experience in the field) helped get him the job and he greatly appreciated the assignments, although very challenging, because they set him up for success to work in today's business/engineering world. My brother, just got a promotion within the ranks and doesn't seem to use the remote project management side as my husband does as he is an electrical engineer. This program is offered entirely online and considered top notch and my brother went through it based off of his employer's suggestion.

 

Now, I'm not certain how a mechanical or chemical engineering degree could be obtained without a lab setting. Systems engineering is more about management and projects. And DH's focused on IT systems with an emphasis on security. They did have online labs, though, but with IT, that's how the job is done in the first place. I believe it is only offered as a graduate degree and to people that have science or engineering backgrounds.

 

I really think that in some cases, online degrees can help put you in a better position with an employer. It proves that you can work independenly from home, and in some cases that you have the ability to do remote projects outside of a conference room. That skill is in very high demand in many IT jobs.

 

 

And to respond to an earlier post, I was employed at a library after graduation. They asked very little about my degree but a lot about my work study experiences, especially since I worked in a library. After that job, I was never asked about college experience again in an interview. But I had a typical undergraduate degree and that's all they really needed to know.

[Jane in NC]

 

I was wondering the same thing about online B.Sc. degrees - particularly in Chem. How can a student have any wet lab experience in Chem at the university level without attending a brick & mortar building at least part of the time? I have a fairly extensive collection of lab equipment at home here for my dd for homeschooling high school but nothing even approaching what was available at the Chem Dept. when I was at university.

 

Maybe wet labs aren't even done anymore. Is it all virtual - even if a student attends a brick & mortar university? That would be sad. :(

The chemistry labs that my son did at our local CC (as a dual enrollment student) could not have been duplicated in our home. Similarly with a microbiology class that he also took at the school.

 

That said, I know that many high schools are going the micro-chem route for safety and cost efficiency. This works for home education too since most of us lack the labs we find at our local colleges.

[Jane in NC]

Yes, my DH has his graduate degree in Systems Engineering. My brother does as well and works for a major engineering company the builds planes and various military equipment. They both took the course online/remote and did group projects remotely with other class participants. As I stated earlier, these projects trained him to work in a remote business setting for a company that is both national and international. DH maintains that this extra special training (combined with experience in the field) helped get him the job and he greatly appreciated the assignments, although very challenging, because they set him up for success to work in today's business/engineering world. My brother, just got a promotion within the ranks and doesn't seem to use the remote project management side as my husband does as he is an electrical engineer. This program is offered entirely online and considered top notch and my brother went through it based off of his employer's suggestion.

 

Now, I'm not certain how a mechanical or chemical engineering degree could be obtained without a lab setting. Systems engineering is more about management and projects. And DH's focused on IT systems with an emphasis on security. They did have online labs, though, but with IT, that's how the job is done in the first place. I believe it is only offered as a graduate degree and to people that have science or engineering backgrounds.

 

I really think that in some cases, online degrees can help put you in a better position with an employer. It proves that you can work independenly from home, and in some cases that you have the ability to do remote projects outside of a conference room. That skill is in very high demand in many IT jobs.

 

In my opinion, IT is a bit of an odd duck. It is a field in which a degree may not be necessary--depending on the corporate employer.

 

Computer engineering often has a hardware focus--not software. I suspect that software related degrees are easier to do online than hardware. The material science labs needed for a hardware focus would tough to duplicate virtually.

[regentrude]

We're in Engineering circles and employers want to know kids worked on things (projects, labs, etc). I don't think they particularly care about "the college experience," but it's a great way to know if the graduate was actually on campus working with the equipment, etc.

 

And it is not just the classes alone. A college education on campus also enables the students to participate in extracurriculars that pertain directly to their majors and that will give them the edge over applicants without those kinds of activities. Our students are involved in many team competitions: solar car, solar house, human powered vehicle, concrete canoe, steel bridge, genetically engineered machines, mining rescue, mucking, Formula SAE, robotics, computer security - this is all hands-on experience outside a formal class. A student who opts for distance education only will not have access to these kinds of activities.

[Catwoman]

Personally, I think online degrees can be perfectly equal to those from brick & mortar programs -- depending on the field of study. Clearly, there are many fields for which a completely online program is neither advisable nor practical -- as an example, I probably wouldn't be too excited to hear that my dentist and my doctors got their degrees online..... ;)

[Jane in NC]

Personally, I think online degrees can be perfectly equal to those from brick & mortar programs -- depending on the field of study. Clearly, there are many fields for which a completely online program is neither advisable nor practical -- as an example, I probably wouldn't be too excited to hear that my dentist and my doctors got their degrees online..... ;)

 

I too see a place for online programs--particularly for working adults who need re-certification or desire completing a degree possibly abandoned earlier in their lives.

 

For the average student of traditional college age, I am not so sure. While many on this board find the college experience to be vapid, mine was extremely rich. By participating in campus activities, I was introduced to authors, different kinds of music, so many new ideas. I remain friends with a number of my undergrad friends. Graduate school was more intense but I still benefited from campus opportunities.

 

Things like MOOCs are exciting in that they can open doors to students who may not otherwise have academic opportunities. The same is true for the public library.

 

Perhaps we should say that not all learners need take a prescribed path. In general though I can't see online degrees as optimal paths for most young people.

[beaners]

When I first met my son's speech therapist, she asked if I already had an undergrad degree because Cincinnati has an online program to get your master's in speech and language pathology. There is a huge need for service providers in this rural area, and not enough qualified people.

[cdrumm4448]

I earned a Bachelor of Applied Science degree a million years ago, and my large, average state school didn't offer much in the way of extra curriculars. While my specific classes on flat pattern design had to be held on campus, my first two years of general ed. could have easily been done online. I agree that it really just depends on the area of expertise.

[Jane in NC]

I earned a Bachelor of Applied Science degree a million years ago, and my large, average state school didn't offer much in the way of extra curriculars. While my specific classes on flat pattern design had to be held on campus, my first two years of general ed. could have easily been done online. I agree that it really just depends on the area of expertise.

 

Over on the College Board we often discuss the advantages/disadvantages of doing the first two years of college at a CC and then transferring. Agreeing that whether one could take courses those first two years online (or at a CC) is dependent upon the degree and the nature of the post-secondary institution.

 

As a former Mathematics instructor at both an engineering school and my local CC, I can say that there is a huge difference in the students at the two schools. It is far better, in my opinion, for engineering students to be with peers from the get go. My local CC simply does not offer the same caliber of student as most engineering schools.

 

That said, if an online program offered an engineering oriented Calculus sequence with peers, it might work online--with the appropriate technology.

 

It goes without saying that student success is often dependent upon motivation.

 

My son is wrapping up his junior year at an LAC. He did not take two years of general ed requirements. In fact, I am not sure how many schools have rigid general ed these days, especially since so many students come to college with x number of AP credits in the basics. My son was able to take a 300 level course in his major field during his second semester. Networking has paid off in exceptional opportunities. Does this happen online? It could, I suppose. As Regentrude mentioned though there are so many opportunities on campus for majors in a field to get together for competitions, educational field days, lectures with visiting profs.

[mrs.m]

In my opinion, IT is a bit of an odd duck. It is a field in which a degree may not be necessary--depending on the corporate employer.

 

Computer engineering often has a hardware focus--not software. I suspect that software related degrees are easier to do online than hardware. The material science labs needed for a hardware focus would tough to duplicate virtually.

 

 

That's true in many fields, so I don't find IT to be that odd. A degree and many years of experience are required as an IT Enterprise Architech, the level my DH is working. Many without a degree (systems engineering or even an MBA) will stay in the desktop repair, small server & hardware management without one or will need many years to climb up higher. Without an undergraduate degree, it is a n exception to move to any higher project management levels. My husband hit that ceiling and that's the reason he got his graduate degree. You are correct that the type of computer engineering with which he is involved rarely involves him actually touching hardware but that has not been the focus of his job for many years as he isn't about building technical gadgets as most computer engineers.

 

I don't think online is always the way to go. I'm hoping to make a point that in some careers it is welcomed and shouldn't just be thrown out as an option and may even be the only option available. The student has to really understand the environment in which they hope to work. But I think with businesses continuing to allow their employees to work at home and moving new employees less and less on location, that any extra online group project training is highly useful.

[regentrude]

As a former Mathematics instructor at both an engineering school and my local CC, I can say that there is a huge difference in the students at the two schools. It is far better, in my opinion, for engineering students to be with peers from the get go. My local CC simply does not offer the same caliber of student as most engineering schools.

 

 

Yes, absolutely.

Quite a few of our students take the calculus courses at the community college, because it is a lot easier there (I always wonder why we accept their credit.) The transfer students to our engineering school usually tell me that our classes are much more demanding that they have been used from the CC and that they have to work hard to adjust.

I would not recommend doing CC first for a science major either; the courses in their majors begin in the first year, and the CC courses simply are not at the same level.

[creekland]

 

Maybe wet labs aren't even done anymore. Is it all virtual - even if a student attends a brick & mortar university? That would be sad. :(

 

My guy has had 5 hour Chem labs at his college using real chemicals and techniques of all sorts.

 

There's absolutely no way his freshman intro Chem or Bio classes even remotely compare to equivalent cc courses or AP. The vast majority of kids had AP coming in. The profs there assume everyone STARTS at that level. If a student doesn't, then they have a lot more knowledge to cram in. To be fair, many lower level 4 year schools are not equivalent in content either. (I've been comparing from kids at school.)

[Lanny]

I read a few of the replies to this thread. When my DD is in the TTUISD High School, yes, I hope she can take some Dual Credit courses from TTU, but nothing in her major. Certainly nothing in Science or Math. TTU is building a new Petroleum Engineering building. Possibly a $50 million investment. If someone were interested in that Major, among many others, there is simply no way that reading the textbook and watching videos, could replace the experience of learning in the labs, in that kind of facility. I am with regentdude here. There is a lot to be said for the interaction, in a classroom or lab, with a live instructor and other students. I know people here, who have received a Masters or Ph.D. in Education, by Distance Learning, from a university in the USA. That’s a lot different from someone in a STEM field. My wife was a Distance Learning student in a university here. Actually, a Hybrid program. She was on campus, one Saturday a month, to take examinations, for a class or two, etc. In some cases, it may save a lot of $, but in other cases, it is because the student is working, has a family, etc., and cannot be on campus every day, that causes the decision for Distance Learning.

[mommymilkies]

Yes, absolutely.

Quite a few of our students take the calculus courses at the community college, because it is a lot easier there (I always wonder why we accept their credit.) The transfer students to our engineering school usually tell me that our classes are much more demanding that they have been used from the CC and that they have to work hard to adjust.

I would not recommend doing CC first for a science major either; the courses in their majors begin in the first year, and the CC courses simply are not at the same level.

 

I am going to strongly disagree here. Dh teaches college chemistry-at a CC. My brothers attend 2 different universities, University of Illinois C-U, for one. Both of them have had HUGE problems with having science teachers who were 1. teaching assistants too pompous or barely knowledgeable to teach or 2. foreign (no offense) and there being a majorly problematic language barrier.

 

Dh has MANY students who take his classes and go on to major in chemical engineering, chemistry, etc. He already has several that got into their first choice at medical school. He has ex-students EVERY day contact him to help them with their current coursework in everything from Chiropractic school to advanced biochem at U of I.

 

I get really sick of hearing all of this dissing of community colleges. They fill a real place in higher education. Sure, not all are perfect, but not all universities have awesome professors, either. It sounds like your local CC needs some work, but it is NOT the fact for other community colleges.

[8filltheheart]

I am going to strongly disagree here. Dh teaches college chemistry-at a CC. My brothers attend 2 different universities, University of Illinois C-U, for one. Both of them have had HUGE problems with having science teachers who were 1. teaching assistants too pompous or barely knowledgeable to teach or 2. foreign (no offense) and there being a majorly problematic language barrier.

 

Dh has MANY students who take his classes and go on to major in chemical engineering, chemistry, etc. He already has several that got into their first choice at medical school. He has ex-students EVERY day contact him to help them with their current coursework in everything from Chiropractic school to advanced biochem at U of I.

 

I get really sick of hearing all of this dissing of community colleges. They fill a real place in higher education. Sure, not all are perfect, but not all universities have awesome professors, either. It sounds like your local CC needs some work, but it is NOT the fact for other community colleges.

 

They do fill a place in higher ed, but all ed is not equal. Not all universities are equal. Not all CCs are equal. But, our experience does match what Regentrude posts. Our kids' CC classes have been pretty subpar. (though 2 of dd's classes at a university this semester have been as well......one of them the online course I posted about earlier in this thread.)

 

FWIW, we don't let our STEM students take math or science at the CCs even though it costs us 3-4x more for them to take them at the local universities instead. There is reciprocity, so they would transfer. That is not the issue. We have experience with multiple CCs and courses (over 3 kids at 3 different CCs) and we do not want core courses that are foundational for upper level work taken at them.

 

Others are more than happy with their CC experiences. It isn't going to keep me from sharing ours.

[mommymilkies]

 

They do fill a place in higher ed, but all ed is not equal. Not all universities are equal. Not all CCs are equal. But, our experience does match what Regentrude posts. Our kids' CC classes have been pretty subpar. (though 2 of dd's classes at a university this semester have been as well......one of them the online course I posted about earlier in this thread.)

 

FWIW, we don't let our STEM students take math or science at the CCs even though it costs us 3-4x more for them to take them at the local universities instead. There is reciprocity, so they would transfer. That is not the issue. We have experience with multiple CCs and courses (over 3 kids at 3 different CCs) and we do not want core courses that are foundational for upper level work taken at them.

 

Others are more than happy with their CC experiences. It isn't going to keep me from sharing ours.

 

It's the judgementalism and painting with a broad brush. This topic comes up SO often on here. Of course they're not all great. Ad not all universities are good, either. But it gets tiring when people denigrate community colleges and calling them all lesser than 4-year colleges. It's quite insulting, honestly, some of the things people say on here about them.

[8filltheheart]

It's the judgementalism and painting with a broad brush. This topic comes up SO often on here. Of course they're not all great. Ad not all universities are good, either. But it gets tiring when people denigrate community colleges and calling them all lesser than 4-year colleges. It's quite insulting, honestly, some of the things people say on here about them.

 

What are the admission procedures for CC? What is the acceptance rate? What is the avg education level of the avg enrollee? What education level do the avg enrollees plan on attaining? Do the answers to those questions impact the quality of education taking place inside of the classroom? (In my opinion, all of those answers impact the quality of education at institutions in general, otherwise why even bother trying for admission into selective schools and for scholarship $$?? The simple realit is that the admission criteria and educational objectives for CC students is lower than 4 yr universities and do impact education.)

 

ETA: BTW, I also have a dd that is pursuing a 2 yr allied health degree from a CC. So my comments are not being made as someone who doesn't see any worth in CCs.

[Jane in NC]

It's the judgementalism and painting with a broad brush. This topic comes up SO often on here. Of course they're not all great. Ad not all universities are good, either. But it gets tiring when people denigrate community colleges and calling them all lesser than 4-year colleges. It's quite insulting, honestly, some of the things people say on here about them.

 

This thread is about online colleges but since I am the one who brought up CCs, I feel that I should comment. Earlier in the thread, I wrote:

It is far better, in my opinion, for engineering students to be with peers from the get go. My local CC simply does not offer the same caliber of student as most engineering schools.

 

I am sorry if this statement of fact disturbs you. I have taught at an engineering university as well as the local CC hence have come to the conclusion that a serious engineering student would be better served by attending NCSU or another engineering school to be with peers from the beginning.

 

I mentioned CCs not to denigrate them but to illustrate that there really is not a one size fits all option. I do not believe that online colleges are the solution for all students--nor do I see the CC as the optimal path for all students.

 

Those of us who homeschool in high school wear two hats, that of teacher as well as counselor. Finding an educational fit that works for our students as well as our family finances is not always easy.

 

I did not recommend a large public university as the optimal path for my son since I believed that he would be better served at an LAC with smaller classes and direct contact with professors. His LAC is suited to his interests and his temperament--but that in no way suggests that his LAC is suited to your children.

 

Again--no one size fits all solution. Who is painting with a broad brush?

[regentrude]

What are the admission procedures for CC? What is the acceptance rate? What is the avg education level of the avg enrollee? What education level do the avg enrollees plan on attaining? Do the answers to those questions impact the quality of education taking place inside of the classroom? (In my opinion, all of those answers impact the quality of education at institutions in general, otherwise why even bother trying for admission into selective schools and for scholarship $$?? The simple realit is that the admission criteria and educational objectives for CC students is lower than 4 yr universities and do impact education.)

 

I agree.

 

And, mommymilkies, nobody is saying anything against the instructors at the CC!!!! None of this is in any way meaning to denigrate instructors like your DH! And nobody said that CC does not have a place.

 

But the difference is simply the student population. Why are the top universities so good? Mainly because they can be highly selective and accept only the strongest students, thus making a higher level of coursework possible. If I have students who come in with strong calculus and basic physics skills, I can teach them a lot more than I can teach students without this background. The higher the bar for admission, the better prepared the students are - and that level of preparation will inevitably be reflected in the level of coursework. A professor who has a class full of students who took AP in high school can start at that level and build; a professor with a class full of students who never had the subject at all has to start at high school level.

It is a simple fact that most of these strongest students choose to attend a four year university after high school, while students who are not prepared for this often attend CC first. The coursework must reflect these differences in student population.

This does not mean that I do not have high respect for CC instructors! But the caliber of students is, on average, not the same. And the caliber of students at my public university is also, on average, not the same as at a highly selective Ivy school. Shrug. We teach the students we have. And the hallmark of a good instructor is to accomplish just that. (Which is far harder than teaching only brilliant students.)

[I.Dup.]

It is impossible to get a lab degree (nursing, medicine, etc) online. That being said, you can get your master's degree online if you are already an RN. This is something I have looked into extensively. Any program that claims to be able to give a nursing, ultrasound, whatever lab degree "online" has the caveat that you must already have your nursing degree completed.

 

So not all degrees are possible online, and I'm not sure how they would ever make something that required labs and clinicals possible online. I know for a fact they are not available now.

[creekland]

I am going to strongly disagree here. Dh teaches college chemistry-at a CC. My brothers attend 2 different universities, University of Illinois C-U, for one. Both of them have had HUGE problems with having science teachers who were 1. teaching assistants too pompous or barely knowledgeable to teach or 2. foreign (no offense) and there being a majorly problematic language barrier.

 

Dh has MANY students who take his classes and go on to major in chemical engineering, chemistry, etc. He already has several that got into their first choice at medical school. He has ex-students EVERY day contact him to help them with their current coursework in everything from Chiropractic school to advanced biochem at U of I.

 

I get really sick of hearing all of this dissing of community colleges. They fill a real place in higher education. Sure, not all are perfect, but not all universities have awesome professors, either. It sounds like your local CC needs some work, but it is NOT the fact for other community colleges.

 

Actually, it sounds like your DH is a great professor. Those can be found anywhere (even not teaching, but just tutoring). My uncle was fantastic at math and often helped college students with their classes, but his "real" job was teaching at a rural high school. Having a great prof in no way shape or fashion suggests a cc is an equal choice (in general) to a good 4 year U. If your cc is that good, it could be that yours is the exception (and yes, let local folks know), but I'd hate to suggest following that path to ALL due to a few good ccs (or professors within a cc). The vast majority are not anywhere near the same. My kids have taken classes at our cc and at 4 year schools (one ranked, one not). Both have said their cc courses were considerably easier. I've seen comparable tests. They are nowhere near the same in content. Not all 4 year schools are the same either. Investigate carefully.

 

They do fill a place in higher ed, but all ed is not equal. Not all universities are equal. Not all CCs are equal. But, our experience does match what Regentrude posts. Our kids' CC classes have been pretty subpar. (though 2 of dd's classes at a university this semester have been as well......one of them the online course I posted about earlier in this thread.)

 

FWIW, we don't let our STEM students take math or science at the CCs even though it costs us 3-4x more for them to take them at the local universities instead. There is reciprocity, so they would transfer. That is not the issue. We have experience with multiple CCs and courses (over 3 kids at 3 different CCs) and we do not want core courses that are foundational for upper level work taken at them.

 

Others are more than happy with their CC experiences. It isn't going to keep me from sharing ours.

 

:iagree:

 

It's the judgementalism and painting with a broad brush. This topic comes up SO often on here. Of course they're not all great. Ad not all universities are good, either. But it gets tiring when people denigrate community colleges and calling them all lesser than 4-year colleges. It's quite insulting, honestly, some of the things people say on here about them.

 

So are we supposed to say all are equally as good as Top 100 schools? Are we supposed to say all content is the same even when we have experience showing it isn't? Ccs do have their place and they serve a multitude of people. I often recommend them to students pending what they want to do with their lives. I know adults whose lives have been enriched by them. I know families who need to start at them financially. But they are not equivalent educationally to a top school and people should be aware of that. They may be equivalent to lower level 4 year schools and probably are equivalent to directional state schools. That's the broad brush I've seen in my experience and I'll freely share that with others because I feel the knowledge is better than being politically correct and saying something I haven't found to be true.

 

Within each type of school, 'tis always best to check out professors. There can be great and not so great professors anywhere. A top school is not always the best choice for any particular student even if they have the stats to get there - and what schools are "top" varies by the major chosen.

 

I am sorry if this statement of fact disturbs you. I have taught at an engineering university as well as the local CC hence have come to the conclusion that a serious engineering student would be better served by attending NCSU or another engineering school to be with peers from the beginning.

 

I mentioned CCs not to denigrate them but to illustrate that there really is not a one size fits all option. I do not believe that online colleges are the solution for all students--nor do I see the CC as the optimal path for all students.

 

Those of us who homeschool in high school wear two hats, that of teacher as well as counselor. Finding an educational fit that works for our students as well as our family finances is not always easy.

 

I did not recommend a large public university as the optimal path for my son since I believed that he would be better served at an LAC with smaller classes and direct contact with professors. His LAC is suited to his interests and his temperament--but that in no way suggests that his LAC is suited to your children.

 

Again--no one size fits all solution. Who is painting with a broad brush?

 

I never recommend engineering students start at cc... in our area, it would be a waste of time. If someone is considering it in other areas, check first with the cc or desired Us (for transferring) to see if others have been successful following that path - success not meaning just graduating, but graduating and getting a decent engineering job. If so, than chances are that cc can work (and is better than ours).

[lailasmum]

I think a big element is how it's set up. In the UK there has been the Open university since the early 70s and it's well respected. Until a few years back it was correspondence and videos that were on the BBC early in the morning. But now it's basically all online. However in each area you get an actual tutor that you can go and see, they hold regular face to face tutorials and I think it's them that marks your work (can't remember as it's a while since I did their courses) and they are your contact for help, there is online support too. There's generally also a week to go and work in a lab if you do a science course.

[mommymilkies]

This thread is about online colleges but since I am the one who brought up CCs, I feel that I should comment. Earlier in the thread, I wrote:

 

 

I am sorry if this statement of fact disturbs you. I have taught at an engineering university as well as the local CC hence have come to the conclusion that a serious engineering student would be better served by attending NCSU or another engineering school to be with peers from the beginning.

 

I mentioned CCs not to denigrate them but to illustrate that there really is not a one size fits all option. I do not believe that online colleges are the solution for all students--nor do I see the CC as the optimal path for all students.

 

Those of us who homeschool in high school wear two hats, that of teacher as well as counselor. Finding an educational fit that works for our students as well as our family finances is not always easy.

 

I did not recommend a large public university as the optimal path for my son since I believed that he would be better served at an LAC with smaller classes and direct contact with professors. His LAC is suited to his interests and his temperament--but that in no way suggests that his LAC is suited to your children.

 

Again--no one size fits all solution. Who is painting with a broad brush?

 

Yes, this topic comes up several times a year with an elitist attitude (that has already been stated on this thread) that kids who go to cc first are somehow lesser. It's like someone saying that obviously homeschool students are better than public schooled students because they obviously get a better education because their parents care more. It's ridiculous. Of course you can't get an engineering degree from a cc, but you can get a good start on one and get a good education. I have gotten several pm's from people since I posted, thanking me for saying this because many find the air of elitism surrounding the cc issue insulting to their choices and their children. So I'm obviously not the only one seeing it.

 

As far as admissions go, that depends on the college, obviously. Every one I have attended required transcripts and testing for placement in courses. I have friends who were Honor Roll ps students who were placed in Remedial English once they started cc or university. Both ended up in the same place and are doing well. Your experience would depend on your college since they are as different as universities!

 

Well, some people can not afford top 100 schools straight off. LOTS of really smart students don't receive a full financial aid ride to schools because of their family income or whatever. If you look through the college board on here, alone, you will see this quite often. I got admitted to Duke but because I had no information on my father's whereabouts (he wasn't even on my birth certificate), I could not get their financial aid even as a married mother! I would hardly say I was a poor quality student and so that's why I've taken cc classes. Many kids get a start at a cc and do well enough to qualify for scholarships upon transferring. Many go to community colleges in the summer because they tire of classes with 100+ people and no access to a professor for general ed (chem 1, physics 1, etc.).

 

FWIW, I started at the local state university and have a 3.9 gpa and attended a few cc classes when I was pg because I could do them online and still continue my education. I could link you to Rate My Professor scores of some of my university teachers that would show just how horrible some of those classes were. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a good university or all universities were bad. And, no offense, love to argue this out continuously on this board, but I won't be back here. I'm on an internet break, and I'm breaking my own rule!

I think the availability of online education is going to be ultimately very good for universities, as it is going to shake them up and re-evaluate what they do and why they do it. Certainly, the mythical engaged scholarly professor engaging undergraduates in Socratic discussion is ideal, but how often does that happen? I went to Big State U, and feel like I got a pretty good education, but most of my introductory classes were in lecture halls with 300 other students. No student was ever called on by the professor, who certainly didn't know anyone by name. This was supposed to be offset by recitation sections which met once a week in groups of 20 or so, but they were taught by a TA, who was often in his/her first year of teaching, and frankly, way more focused on their own education than teaching. Are online lectures impersonal and one-way? I'm sure they can be, but no more so than my huge lectures. If universities are going to get on their high horse and complain about online pedagogy, a little self-reflection may be in order.

 

If the role of the university is educating the whole person, not just vocational, who is to say that the whole person education has to come in one big chunk at the beginning of adulthood? Personally, I love the promise of picking and choosing one or two classes here or there, without signing up for a full four year degree, and to be able to schedule it into my crazy life. I adore many Teaching Company series, and would gladly pay (some) money for somewhat more formal courses. If I would be a better person for having read Dante, wouldn't it be nice to have a way to study Dante at the college level as an adult, but without having to go to campus in the middle of the day, or commit to a 120 credit four year program?

[kiana]

I will add to others (too many to quote): CC's vary widely. For the college that my brother took classes at, the non-majors courses were weak but the majors courses prepared him well to transfer to an Ivy League school, where he did well in his upper-division coursework. This college sends several transfer students every year to very good schools.

 

However, I have also had transfer students come in from CC's where they had taken intermediate/college algebra courses, and found that their skills were substantially below even the algebra 1 level. In one case, the student explained that the course was marked 50% on homework and she had gotten a C overall.

[beaners]

I think the availability of online education is going to be ultimately very good for universities, as it is going to shake them up and re-evaluate what they do and why they do it. Certainly, the mythical engaged scholarly professor engaging undergraduates in Socratic discussion is ideal, but how often does that happen? I went to Big State U, and feel like I got a pretty good education, but most of my introductory classes were in lecture halls with 300 other students. No student was ever called on by the professor, who certainly didn't know anyone by name. This was supposed to be offset by recitation sections which met once a week in groups of 20 or so, but they were taught by a TA, who was often in his/her first year of teaching, and frankly, way more focused on their own education than teaching. Are online lectures impersonal and one-way? I'm sure they can be, but no more so than my huge lectures. If universities are going to get on their high horse and complain about online pedagogy, a little self-reflection may be in order.

 

If the role of the university is educating the whole person, not just vocational, who is to say that the whole person education has to come in one big chunk at the beginning of adulthood? Personally, I love the promise of picking and choosing one or two classes here or there, without signing up for a full four year degree, and to be able to schedule it into my crazy life. I adore many Teaching Company series, and would gladly pay (some) money for somewhat more formal courses. If I would be a better person for having read Dante, wouldn't it be nice to have a way to study Dante at the college level as an adult, but without having to go to campus in the middle of the day, or commit to a 120 credit four year program?

 

I love this post. Excellent points!

 

That is what my intro classes at a flagship state university were like for math, physics, chemistry, history, everything. You sat there (or didn't show up) while someone lectured in the front of the room. Contrasting that with the vibrant non-traditional online classes I've done through Coursera, it's clear to me which environment allows for more student involvement and participation. I can ask a question and discuss it with classmates from around the world, sharing our various perspectives. Professors and TAs are able to pop in to the discussion here and there if we are missing a nuance, but we are able to really own the material and the class.

 

I've also taken traditional online classes that were simply the Pearson tests posted to the site, and good luck getting the instructor to email you back. I've even taken an excellent calculus class at a community college, with an exciting and involving instructor and students willing to debate and determine the most efficient way to solve a problem.

 

The traditional university design does have value. The assumption of a large and academically involved student body does not match my experience, but I'm sure it exists. Those social and cultural benefits, the late-night philosophical talks, those occurred in many settings for me as a young adult. They were not restricted to my time spent in a university or the people I met there. The education I have received from free online resources like Coursera is of a higher quality than what I paid for at a decent university. I'd love to see many parts of the system turned on its head, and not just because it would suit my current role as a non-traditional student.

[shawthorne44]

I think it is wonderful. I hope they don't dumb down the classes. In fact I think keeping the online classes at exactly the same level and letting many students flunk would be good for them long-term.

 

It would have been a good fit for me. Definitely for my first two years, a mix of online classes and B&M classes at the same University would have been great too.

 

I went to Big State U. I had many classes with over 100 students in them. There really wasn't time in the large classes for class interaction. Plus, I really truly did not care what the student 10 rows over had to say. I did do study groups in the upper-level classes. But only for the social interaction and because we often went to the pub afterward. I don't think I ever had more than two office visits for the same class, and that includes my Masters in Engineering.

 

Reminds me of Freshman Chem. A boy I later almost married was sitting next to me. First day of class he told me that he hoped his book wasn't unlucky. He'd borrowed it from his ex-girlfriend and she failed the class. (Point being that he had a recent ex-gf and was available) She didn't understand why she failed the class, so the class must be really hard. Then he opened the book, and the spine cracked. It was hysterical. The ding-bat had never even opened the book! I met so many like that. They thought college was like High School where you go to class every day, and you pass. Later on, he told me he thought I was going to fail too, since every time he looked over I was drawing flowers. Then when the first test was handed back, the prof said he was pleased that his class got the highest grade (same test for all fresh classes) (I got the impression the profs had a bet going) The boy next to me looked at my test, and saw he was talking about me.

 

I know prof's in B&M classes have grade pressure. I saw several examples of students banding together and saying that the low average GPA in the class was because the prof was a bad teacher. When in reality, those classes just had a larger collection of students that shouldn't have been in the class. For an online class, admin could review everything and then more easily tell the students "Get your act together".

[creekland]

Yes, this topic comes up several times a year with an elitist attitude (that has already been stated on this thread) that kids who go to cc first are somehow lesser.

 

It's not an elitist attitude at all. No one is intending to say that cc first makes "people" lesser. However, it's a fallacy to assume Bio 101 at cc = Bio 101 at a top school. It's also a fallacy to say Bio 101 at a cc is not equal to Bio 101 at a 4 year school. The level of the 4 year school (and what they call Bio 101) makes a difference. Schools need to be investigated for content. ALL PEOPLE have the same value IMO. I don't care if they've gone to college or not. ALL PEOPLE have a chance for success (defining success as being able to support themselves doing something they like).

 

But not all educations are the same. MANY PEOPLE do not need a top notch education to succeed. In this day and age, MANY people will need some sort of post high school education. There are many paths to get this and which one works for any particular individual can definitely vary (fit, finances, etc).

 

I love my small Christian LAC kid as much as my Top 30 U kid and each picked the school right for them. Youngest is still in the deciding mode, but certainly isn't heading to a Top 30 school. That in no way at all dimishes his value as a person nor his likelihood to succeed in life. It will likely mean many of his classes aren't going to be in as much depth. That will fit him very well. Among the schools he is considering some are better quality than others in certain majors. We'll be pondering how that fits in just as much as our finances when we make the final decision where he goes. We want school that fits at a price we can afford. We've been successful with our older two and will try our hardest to be successful with youngest.

[8filltheheart]

It's not an elitist attitude at all. No one is intending to say that cc first makes "people" lesser. However, it's a fallacy to assume Bio 101 at cc = Bio 101 at a top school. It's also a fallacy to say Bio 101 at a cc is not equal to Bio 101 at a 4 year school. The level of the 4 year school (and what they call Bio 101) makes a difference. Schools need to be investigated for content. ALL PEOPLE have the same value IMO. I don't care if they've gone to college or not. ALL PEOPLE have a chance for success (defining success as being able to support themselves doing something they like).

 

But not all educations are the same. MANY PEOPLE do not need a top notch education to succeed. In this day and age, MANY people will need some sort of post high school education. There are many paths to get this and which one works for any particular individual can definitely vary (fit, finances, etc).

 

I love my small Christian LAC kid as much as my Top 30 U kid and each picked the school right for them. Youngest is still in the deciding mode, but certainly isn't heading to a Top 30 school. That in no way at all dimishes his value as a person nor his likelihood to succeed in life. It will likely mean many of his classes aren't going to be in as much depth. That will fit him very well. Among the schools he is considering some are better quality than others in certain majors. We'll be pondering how that fits in just as much as our finances when we make the final decision where he goes. We want school that fits at a price we can afford. We've been successful with our older two and will try our hardest to be successful with youngest.

 

 

This is my POV as well. Except, we can't necessarily afford a school that fits. However, I am also under no delusion that the math and physics that our ds is receiving at the local university is anywhere near the caliber of MIT or Cal Tech. The classes are what they are. They are better than the local CC, but they are not on par with better schools. That is simple reality.

 

FWIW, I hope our ds can attend a better school for his 4 yr degree, but if he doesn't get scholarship $$, then he won't be able to. It might impact his future chances for grad school. Hopefully it won't. But either way, we know that the better schools are out there even if he isn't attending one. ;) It doesn't mean **he** or *his abilities** are any less......but the education he receives just very well may be. Reality.

[LucyStoner]

Another issue I haven't seen addressed yet was in one of the last discussions on this topic. The majority of employers view an online degree NEGATIVELY for a fresh new hire. In a difficult job market where there is plenty of competition for most jobs, this won't help.

 

For someone who has been on a job and merely needs a degree to check a box for advancement, then an online degree can be a terrific option, but they already have a job and that speaks for them. The degree is essentially not a component except for the technicality - then no one cares where it comes from.

 

There's no way at all that I would consider an online college degree for my guys. It'd be a waste of $$ IMO. Should I ever want to get my masters in teaching at some point (unlikely, but hypothetically), then I'd definitely consider online options - esp since we live rural.

 

With so many generally well regarded brick and mortar schools offering online classes and online degree programs, this problem is disappearing. The degrees issued by these schools are the same for in person and online, to say nothing of the growing number of students who take online classes as part of their degree, along with regular on campus courses.

 

Also, I know several employers who hire people from certain online only colleges like WGU. My husband's hospital does, as does the huge telecommunications company for which my BIL works. I was skeptical and thought online = degree mill but I was incorrect.

[cmarango]

I think it's a great idea for all of those classes that you have to take, but don't want to. I'm not sure how other universities operate, but at UF you have to satisfy a bunch of general education requirements. So my anthropology class and a composition class that I had to take could have been easily done online. But I would still would have wanted to take my real classes (for my majors) in person.

 

Unfortunately, my university experience, especially the first two years, was essentially a continuation of high school. We are dumbing down the colleges and I think they are fine with it since now many professions are requiring graduate degrees. My target for teaching high school level topics to my children will be to cover the same material typically found in low level undergrad courses at UF.

 

I also disagree with remedial classes at the university level and the ability to declare your major as "undecided", but that is a different argument entirely.

[mamakelly]

I'm currently taking online classes at a cc, trying to finish up an AA degree that I started a long time ago. The classes I've taken have been excellent. I've been engaged in more online discussions than I ever had when I was in a classroom setting. There's a heck of a lot more reading and writing than in a class at the campus. I would never been able to go back to school if it wasn't for the online option. I've taken several general education classes; nutrition, music appreciation, art, black studies, child development etc... Occasionally I've had trouble contacting professors but for the most part it's been fine. I did try a math class this semester and found it way too challenging online, I'm going to have to do that one in person.

[asta]

Not everyone:

 

* Has access to/can afford Community College, Dual Enrollment, AP courses, co ops, spiffy laboratories, "shadowing a professional" opportunities or online middle school and high school programs which require tuition.

 

* Is remotely interested in being in STEM fields - even if it is the 'wave of the future'. And their parents probably get a wee bit tired of listening to how much better/faster/more all the STEM kids are than their kids will ever be. Because that is bullish!t. And it is condescending as well.

 

* Is applying to a university that wants their students to have completed college prior to showing up (not just eliminating those 'pesky' lib studies classes, either). Many look at it as a detractor, believing that the student needs to come to study the entire package, not just the courses for their major; that "university" means something more than "here are the classes you want/need to get X certification - we're really only a job mill" - see ya!

 

* Sees Community College as a complete waste of time.

 

All of that said:

 

I have friends and family who teach middle school, high school, are lecturers at the university level and are tenured professors at universities. Newsflash: some of the best public and private schools in the US no longer have science laboratories - students use digital labs. Myriad reasons, including budget cuts, but also quite a bit of "oh, the poor frog" and "little Johnny is going to be hurt by the evil chemicals" (yes that is hyperbole, but it gets the point across).

 

Major universities where TAs in Master's programs (not PhDs, Master's) are teaching Freshman English. 3-500 seat lecture halls where TAs roll in a TV, turn on a DVD of the prof's recorded lecture and leave. Students signing up for a class at a B&M uni only to discover on the first day that oh, well, the prof is going to do it online and the student will come in for tests. But don't forget to pay that B&M fee! And by the way - that program we recruited you to the school for? We've done away with it! How about this one? You'll only have to stay an extra year and a half to get your degree... unless you take out an extra loan and go to BEAUTIFUL, EXCITING SOUTH AMERICA this summer for our extra, EXTRA special program! (true story, MAJOR university).

 

IOW, there will always be a constant revolution of there is nothing / there is something / there might be something / there may never be anything... And what those things are will be very different for different people. They'll be different according to socioeconomic status, according to geography, according to simple desire, according to the helicopter-ness of the parent involved. And - OMG! Somewhere along the line the kid whose life is being impacted might even be consulted!

 

Right now, the employment rate for students leaving college is 10%. The US economy added 88,000 jobs in March. In the dirt simple, completely inaccurate math dept., if 10% of those jobs were actually given to new college grads (highly, highly doubtful, given the amount of unemployed people out there with years of work experience), that would be a whopping 8,800 young adults being offered jobs.

 

 

During the 2012–13 school year, colleges and universities are

expected to award 937,000 associate’s degrees; 1.8 million bachelor's degrees; 756,000 master's degrees; and 174,700 doctor's degrees

 

 

 

 

 

I somehow don't think the online degree programs are going to break the back of the higher educational system in America or be responsible for the "dumbing down" of students entering the workforce. Many of the students were in dire straits long before college, and nothing an online school does or does not do is going to change that. There are now so many people of equal educational credentials out of work or holding on to their jobs with an iron fist (75%), that a recent college grad has a far greater chance of redoing their old bedroom than anything else. STEM or not.

 

 

 

 

 

a

 

 

[creekland]

 

Right now, the employment rate for students leaving college is 10%.

 

 

Source?

 

I know the unemployment rate for recent college grads is just under 9%. For recent high school grads it's just under 30%. I posted a link to those stats not too long ago.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/467970-more-depressing-news-for-new-graduates/?do=findComment&comment=4892915

 

Also, FWIW, neither my two in college now nor my own experiences were anything like what you are talking about now. One should investigate colleges closely to see what they offer/do. Mine have always had profs teaching. TAs have been in recitations and labs (real, not virtual), but not teaching. There were no video classes either.

 

College A and College B are NOT necessarily the same.

[Dicentra]

I have friends and family who teach middle school, high school, are lecturers at the university level and are tenured professors at universities. Newsflash: some of the best public and private schools in the US no longer have science laboratories - students use digital labs. Myriad reasons, including budget cuts, but also quite a bit of "oh, the poor frog" and "little Johnny is going to be hurt by the evil chemicals" (yes that is hyperbole, but it gets the point across).

 

 

Asta, are the schools getting rid of science labs the middle schools & high schools or the universities?

[kiana]

 

Source?

 

I know the unemployment rate for recent college grads is just under 9%. For recent high school grads it's just under 30%. I posted a link to those stats not too long ago.

 

http://forums.welltr...s/#entry4892915

 

Also, FWIW, neither my two in college now nor my own experiences were anything like what you are talking about now. One should investigate colleges closely to see what they offer/do. Mine have always had profs teaching. TAs have been in recitations and labs (real, not virtual), but not teaching. There were no video classes either.

 

College A and College B are NOT necessarily the same.

 

 

I would be very interested in that statistic as well. I know that recent college graduates are highly likely to be underemployed (i.e. working a job that did not require a bachelor's) but I cannot find a number that is THAT low.

[creekland]

From the link I gave:

 

Unemployment and underemployment rates of most young graduates have only modestly improved since last year, and rates among all graduates are substantially higher than before the recession began.

• For young high school graduates, the unemployment rate is 29.9 percent (compared with 17.5 percent in 2007) and the underemployment rate is 51.5 percent (compared with 29.4 percent in 2007).
  
• For young college graduates, the unemployment rate is 8.8 percent (compared with 5.7 percent in 2007) and the underemployment rate is 18.3 percent (compared with 9.9 percent in 2007)
  

 

[8filltheheart]

My kids are also having real science labs at the university level. They are also taught by real professors. THe labs and recitations have TAs, but not the lectures themselves. (and this is at 2 different universities in 2 different states. Both public. One the largest in the state. One about 1/3 that one's size.)

 

That stat about unemployment also surprises me. When ds graduated from college 2 yrs ago, only a total of 4 of the chemical engineering grads had job offers prior to graduation. The ones that received offers all had 12 months of co-op work experience and above 3.5 GPAs. His other friends that graduated with him were able to find work, but under-employment for sure (one was making just $10/hr). Most of them did end up getting chemE jobs, but it took a lot of time and feet on the ground selling themselves and taking what they could find. Our take on it was that work experience + GPA are the bar you have to surpass in today's market if you want offers prior to graduation day.

[regentrude]

Right now, the employment rate for students leaving college is 10%.

 

Where do you get this number from? It does not match any of the data I have seen, and most definitely not the data we collect for the graduates of the school where I teach.

[Arcadia]

Right now, the employment rate for students leaving college is 10%. The US economy added 88,000 jobs in March.

 

 

I'm curious about the 10% data too.

 

"Total nonfarm payroll employment edged up in March (+88,000)

Professional and business services added 51,000 jobs in March

Job growth in health care continued in March, with a gain of 23,000

Construction employment continued to trend up in March (+18,000)

Within leisure and hospitality, employment in food services and drinking places continued

to trend up in March (+13,000).

In March, job declines occurred in clothing and clothing accessories stores (-15,000), building material and garden supply

stores (-10,000), and electronics and appliance stores (-6,000)

Within government, U.S. Postal Service employment fell by 12,000 in March." (http://www.bls.gov/n.../empsit.nr0.htm)

 

"High school graduates, no college Unemployment rate 8.3%

Some college or associate degree Unemployment rate 6.4%

Bachelor's degree and higher Unemployment rate 3.7%" (Source: Table A-4. Employment status of the civilian population 25 years and over by educational attainment, unemployment rates for March 2013)

[asta]

The labs to which I was referring were at the middle and high school level. Chemistry was usually micro-chem, as stated above.

 

The source for the college stat seems to be an apples and oranges misinterpretation:

 

I was not referring to the well publicized statistics of how many people with college degrees have employment, or how many people with only X years of college (or no college) are employed or are under employed. I was referring to a very recent one, linked off of Cnbc (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100673848 - unfortunately, I had to actually go to the dead link and re-enter the URL because NBC typed it incorrectly):

 

http://www.naceweb.org/Press/Releases/Employers_Trim_College_Hiring_Projections.aspx?mainindex-flash1-colhirflt-05022013. (Job Picture Looks Bleak...)

 

This stat is about the prospects for college students who are graduating. Now. Not 4 years ago. It is bleak. It appears I was off by a couple tenths of a point, but I was going from memory and I didn't state it as well as I should have. I was p!ssed about the rest of the stuff I'd been writing about.

 

I didn't realize I was going to be crucified for a stat that is pretty dang obvious considering the general unemployment/underemployment/sheer number of people who have given up and left the work force. Source: US Bureau of Labor and Statistics March Jobs Report: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

 

 

A

[regentrude]

I was not referring to the well publicized statistics of how many people with college degrees have employment, or how many people with only X years of college (or no college) are employed or are under employed. I was referring to a very recent one, linked off of Cnbc (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100673848 - unfortunately, I had to actually go to the dead link and re-enter the URL because NBC typed it incorrectly):

 

http://www.naceweb.o...irflt-05022013. (Job Picture Looks Bleak...)

 

The two links two contain two completely different statements.

The second one from NACE itself says:

Employers taking part in NACE’s Job Outlook Spring Update survey say they will hire 2.1 percent more new college grads from the Class of 2013 than they hired from the Class of 2012. That’s down from the 13 percent increase they projected in the fall of 2012.

 

The first from cnbc says

 

A survey released last week from the National Association of Colleges and Employers (NACE) reported that businesses plan to hire only 2.1 percent more college graduates from the class of 2013 than they did from the class of 2012. That's way down from an earlier NACE projection of a 13 percent hiring rate for 2013 grads.

 

On the way to the news station, the important word "increase" has been lost.

NACE did not project a 13 percent hiring rate, but a 13 percent increase in hiring rate.

That makes a big difference.

[creekland]

On the way to the news station, the important word "increase" has been lost.

NACE did not project a 13 percent hiring rate, but a 13 percent increase in hiring rate.

That makes a big difference.

 

:iagree: That's an extremely major drop for a "Senior Editor" to make. One can only hope it was a mistake, but in today's world of sensational news selling, one never knows.

 

This is a better quote from the same article:

 

This comes even as the college graduate jobless picture seems to be getting better. The rate of unemployment in 2012 for college grads—defined as 20-24 years old—was 6.3 percent, down from the 8.3 percent for 2011 graduates, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The rate in 2010 was 9.4 percent.

 

(One would have thought that a senior editor would have seen a red flag between what he was writing and these actual stats... but I digress. Perhaps he was low on sleep that day.)

 

With a 13 percent increase over the previous year, the numbers for unemployment and underemployment should continue to decrease.

 

Asta - it's nothing personal against you - and it makes sense when you post what you posted, but for many of us who are carefully looking at the economy because we have graduating students (high school and college), that number just really jumped out as it goes against everything we are seeing. Hence, it's like a red flag that catches our attention. In reality, it's still looking better for future college graduates - as all other stats show. The amount of the salaries is still not increasing (for anyone), but if one picks their COL area carefully, there are still promising places.

[asta]

ARGGGG! Talking. Cross. Purposes.

 

I am not talking about "employing college graduates". That would include ME. That would include half of this board at least. I'm not talking about employing 18-24 year olds. I'm not talking about "hiring 13% more". Or hiring anyone at this point. At this point, all I'm trying to show is that the NACE's study is saying that employers aren't planning on hiring many new college graduates - and by a pretty large margin.

 

When I wrote my original piece, I had only seen the CNBC article because the other link was dead. This morning, I actually looked to figure out why and fixed it.

 

 

"Employers taking part in the Job Outlook Spring Update 2013 survey have trimmed their hiring projections: Currently, they anticipate hiring 2.1 percent more new college graduates in 2012-13 than they did in 2011-12. That's down from a 13 percent hiring increase they originally projected in the fall of 2012."

• 
   
  

Perhaps the above quote from the NACE website is clearer: e.g. When asked in the fall of 2012 what their hiring projections would be, Employers taking part in NACE's survey said they projected a 13% increase over the same time in 2011. However, when asked the same question this Spring, these same employers adjusted their hiring projections downward.

 

Their hiring number is X. Last Fall they projected it would be 1.13X. Now that it is Spring, they have realized it can only be 1.021X.

 

That's all.

 

And it is grim for everyone. This is a thread about college: the people posting on it are in/have a family member in/are finishing/have a family member finishing college. It isn't personal, it is the terrifying state of the US economy; ignoring it isn't going to make it go away. I don't know what people are seeing that shows the US economy 'improving' or in great shape - every economist I know/read besides Krugman is shaking their heads and wishing for a magic solution at this point. That isn't particular to the US economy, either.

 

 

a

[creekland]

I agree the economy is grim and will likely remain that way. But still, employers are hiring MORE college grads than last year, not less. That is an improvement. They might not be hiring as many more as they originally expected, but they are still hiring more.

 

And recent college grads (my stats from a few posts ago) does not include ALL college grads (like you and me). The unemployment stats for recent college grads are vastly better than those of recent high school grads.

 

My advice to those graduating from my high school is to get some sort of post high school education (2 year, 4 year, trade school, certs, whatever) unless they know they have a solid job - like on the family farm.

 

I believing having "something" more is the "need" for the future with rare exceptions (for a decent paying job).