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How much writing for a 3rd/4th grader? What curriculum?


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I'm still confused about how much writing "instruction" my DD needs. She's a "young" 3rd grader, turning 9 soon. At this point, she really seems to hate writing at all. This is our first year homeschooling, and I admit I've slacked off a bit when it comes to writing, as we've just been trying to figure out how homeschooling should "look." Plus, some deschooling needed to happen and probably still does. We've been doing SOTW and she does oral narrations for that and then usually copywork. She has done some narrations for science, but I admit science has been the lowest on our priority list. She has done some other random writing, here and there, and recently we started into WWE2.

 

Is WWE sufficient on it's own? I hear great things about IEW, Bravewriter, etc. Would those be helpful or a hinderance? I don't even understand how people implement BW...or really what it's all about.

 

If someone could give me an example of what a "week of writing" should look like at this stage, I sure would appreciate it. :)

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I have 3rd and 4th graders and we're using Winning With Writing Level 3 for all of them. It was a perfect fit for this year. If she already knows how to write 1 paragraph and the writing process of rough outlines, final outlines, rough drafts, and final drafts, then you may want to do Level 4 if interested.

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I've used IEW, WWE and FLL for 3rd grade. They are both excellent programs but I personally wouldn't do both at once. WWE has samples of a week of writing it- Days 1 -4- I taught a small group of 3rd gr girls from WWE and we did all 4 days at once in about 2 hours. They loved doing it togehter and we did lots of laughing. I've also taught that age IEW- same thing. A complete lesson is a week's worth. I try not to give kids that age "Homework" they have to do on their own- most of just so "new" to writing that they need a bit of adult engagement to keep them going.

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I wouldn't consider her a "young" 3rd grader. Most children are 8yo in 3rd grade. o_0

 

 

Okay, that's what I thought, too. :) I had just been reading another thread that said most curriculum was geared towards kids in 3rd grade being 9 for most of the year, 4th grade 10 most of the year, etc.

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I have 3rd and 4th graders and we're using Winning With Writing Level 3 for all of them. It was a perfect fit for this year. If she already knows how to write 1 paragraph and the writing process of rough outlines, final outlines, rough drafts, and final drafts, then you may want to do Level 4 if interested.

 

So you didn't think it was too much to do both WWW and WWE?

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Even with using WWE, the child should do narrations and copywork from history, science, etc., right? I guess that's one thing I'm a bit confused about. If my DD writes out a narration for history, do I still do a WWE lesson that day? If I don't do both I don't think we would make it through a whole level of WWE in a year. Hope that makes sense.

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My 4th grader is using Writing Tales level 2 this year.

 

I briefly looked at this, and it looks interesting. Although I think my DD would need to start in Level 1 for 4th grade. So is this the only writing program you use? Or is it a supplement?

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I briefly looked at this, and it looks interesting. Although I think my DD would need to start in Level 1 for 4th grade. So is this the only writing program you use? Or is it a supplement?

 

Level 1 is cool, too. :) This is the only writing program my 4th grader uses. He did WWE 1 and 2 and (I believe) part of 3. I really like it. DD will use WWE1 and 2, then go into WT1 and 2, then WWS1.
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So you didn't think it was too much to do both WWW and WWE?

 

 

 

No, but we didn't always do both on the same day. I tweaked it to fit our needs. If they had more writing to do in WWW on a certain day, then I might not do WWE that particular day. They really enjoyed WWW and how easy the writing process was taught.

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Okay, that's what I thought, too. :) I had just been reading another thread that said most curriculum was geared towards kids in 3rd grade being 9 for most of the year, 4th grade 10 most of the year, etc.

 

I must have missed that thread.

 

IME, 3rd-grade children are 8yo for most of the school year, depending on when their birthdays are and the cut-off date where they live. With a summer bday, they'll be 8 when they start 3rd grade: 6yo in first, 7yo in second, 8yo in third, 9yo in fourth, etc. It seems weird to me that textbook publishers would imagine that most children are 9yo for most of third grade. ::scratches head::

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I must have missed that thread.

 

IME, 3rd-grade children are 8yo for most of the school year, depending on when their birthdays are and the cut-off date where they live. With a summer bday, they'll be 8 when they start 3rd grade: 6yo in first, 7yo in second, 8yo in third, 9yo in fourth, etc. It seems weird to me that textbook publishers would imagine that most children are 9yo for most of third grade. ::scratches head::

 

 

But with so many people redshirting kids these days... I don't know if that's true or not, but it wouldn't surprise me. The norm used to be that the cutoff was the end of the calendar year. Now it's the start of September. If you assume that a decent portion of people redshirt kids with August or even July birthdays too, then that really shifts things. The majority of third graders actually would turn 9 and be 9 yo for most of the year, not 8. But I'm with you that this is just a sad trend.

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Oh, and the OP's question...

 

Brave Writer is awesome. :) But I'm a total BW convert, so take my enthusiasm with a grain of salt.

 

BW is all about routines. So you have a different writing/language arts activity each day. It's sort of flexible, but a typical line up would be copywork or dictation one day, narration one day, poetry tea one day, and freewriting one day. She recommends doing one writing "project" a month. Basically, it combines a more old-fashioned sense of the importance of dictation with a more modern sense of freewriting and helping new writers develop their own voice.

 

If it appeals to you, then The Writer's Jungle explains the ideas behind it and gives suggested routines and lots of practical activities. The Arrow gives a month's worth of dictation based around one read aloud book. It's all absolutely enough on its own... though I find we have to add spelling and we did a light grammar study in addition to our grammar and mechanics teaching with dictations.

 

On the other hand, if you go with WWE, then that's absolutely "enough" as well. Whatever you do, don't get caught up comparing with public school. Both WWE and BW and most of the methods homeschoolers use are really different from what's going on in ps right now with writing.

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Oh, and the OP's question...

On the other hand, if you go with WWE, then that's absolutely "enough" as well. Whatever you do, don't get caught up comparing with public school. Both WWE and BW and most of the methods homeschoolers use are really different from what's going on in ps right now with writing.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: This is beautifully put. Both WWE and BW focus on building writing skills at this level. By the time students reach the logic stage with several years of minimal but quality output, they are well-prepared for more demanding writing.

 

It seems that in our area, typical schools expect lots of writing output far sooner than we do in, but aren't concerned about (or able to address) quality. Kids are writing paragraphs in Gr. 2, reports in Gr. 3, opinion pieces in Gr. 4, and short essays in Gr. 5. "Little things" like spelling, capitalization, and sentence structure are often overlooked. But then they tap out there, with average students continuing to write simply-constructed essays of basic syntax for the remainder of their writing career.

 

Many hs writing programs, like WWE, are different in that students using them build the basic skills more slowly than their ps counterparts, but do so with excellence. And then they are expected to continue expanding those skills by playing with a range of writing types in the Gr. 5-8 years. I think that the end result will be worth the slow-but-steady skill-building now.

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On the other hand, if you go with WWE, then that's absolutely "enough" as well. Whatever you do, don't get caught up comparing with public school. Both WWE and BW and most of the methods homeschoolers use are really different from what's going on in ps right now with writing.

 

 

Yes, I think I HAVE compared to public school since my daughter just came out of that this year. Interestingly, her school was going to implement IEW this year. But I think we pulled her before that started. However, it seemed the writing that WAS required of my daughter (whatever "form" it was) even caused the teachers to be a bit overwhelmed at trying to figure out something new. I think one of the main reasons why my DD says she hates writing (so far) is because of her experience at the beginning of 3rd grade. She was pushed to "write right now" and "you only have 20 minutes to do it." She said she would sit there and just not know what to write, while all the other kids finished before her. The pressure was too much. I think I'm finally seeing the "light." :)

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This is beautifully put. Both WWE and BW focus on building writing skills at this level. By the time students reach the logic stage with several years of minimal but quality output, they are well-prepared for more demanding writing

 

 

I guess I get confused, trying to "look ahead" to the logic stage. We're only just starting this method (and homeschooling) this year in third grade. So I don't know that my DD will be "caught up" by 5th grade. We'll keep at it. :)

 

Also, for the BW users, did you get the download or printed version of TWJ?

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Finally found the post re:age and grade - http://forums.welltr...ge#entry4671851

Scroll down to the 11th post - by "Classically Minded"

 

 

That's me! I'm not sure where I came across that information, but it was a few year's ago and I kept it saved on my computer. It is just an "average" age, nothing in stone but something to go by.

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Even with using WWE, the child should do narrations and copywork from history, science, etc., right? I guess that's one thing I'm a bit confused about. If my DD writes out a narration for history, do I still do a WWE lesson that day? If I don't do both I don't think we would make it through a whole level of WWE in a year. Hope that makes sense.

 

 

From what I read in the WTM, the "writing" is simply having the child do copywork/narration/dictation in history and science and the book they are reading for literature. The WWE manual directs you "how" to do it with literature selections and the workbook for WWE is only for those who want it all done for them. Then, you have the child do narrations in history and science and your writing curriculum is complete.

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Definitely listen to the lectures by SWB on the writing process. Well worth the download fee. She really explains the writing process and her educational method with regard to writing. I think by using WWE and then moving onto WWS when your student is ready, she will have a rock-solid writing foundation. The lectures help you see the 'big picture' of her method.

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I must have missed that thread.

 

IME, 3rd-grade children are 8yo for most of the school year, depending on when their birthdays are and the cut-off date where they live. With a summer bday, they'll be 8 when they start 3rd grade: 6yo in first, 7yo in second, 8yo in third, 9yo in fourth, etc. It seems weird to me that textbook publishers would imagine that most children are 9yo for most of third grade. ::scratches head::

 

Both are actually correct, the child can be 8 or 9. Many countries follow the same averages where a child is 8-9 for 3rd grade. It is simply to have a peg to go by to design curriculum towards a certain age-bracket. Our state says a child must be 5 by Sept. 5th before entering K, so with that standard, my dd was 1 month away from turning 6 when she started K, as her birthday falls in October. But we all know with homeschooling that grades don't matter much, so go at the child's level.

 

Here is a chart on US standards for age vs. grade levels, that some other countries follow as well:

 

Pre-K: Ages 3-4/4-5

Kindergarten: Ages 5-6

1st Grade: Ages 6-7

2nd Grade: Ages 7-8

3rd Grade: Ages 8-9

4th Grade: Ages 9-10

5th Grade: Ages 10-11

6th Grade: Ages 11-12

7th Grade: Ages 12-13

8th Grade: Ages 13-14

9th Grade: Ages 14-15

10th Grade: Ages 15-16

11th Grade: Ages 16-17

12th Grade: Ages 17-18

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Even with using WWE, the child should do narrations and copywork from history, science, etc., right? I guess that's one thing I'm a bit confused about. If my DD writes out a narration for history, do I still do a WWE lesson that day? If I don't do both I don't think we would make it through a whole level of WWE in a year. Hope that makes sense.

 

 

That's what we do. Every day we do our WWE lesson. We also write narrations in history several days a week. With our spelling and grammar programs, my dds usually end up writing sentences from dictation throughout the week. I'm probably going to start to introduce short and occasional science narrations this year (Gr. 3); so far, I haven't found the need. But the idea is that they do their writing lesson daily, and then start to apply those skills across the curriculum.

 

I also give my dds the option of completing copywork and/or narration when they finish a book, for which they get to choose a treat from a jar and we talk about it. This isn't mandatory because I don't want them to feel that finishing a book requires extra work from them.

 

I think that with WWE in particular, the skill-building can seem really slow because lessons are so short every day. But by reinforcing them daily, a lot of ground can be covered in a year, and the skills tend to stick because they've been practiced every. single. day. WWE is enough, even if you're starting it a bit "late;" so are many of the other programs that have been mentioned. Since you already own and have been using it, I would concentrate on using WWE daily and also writing across the curriculum before considering adding in other programs or even switching completely.

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My 3rd grader is similar - June birthday, so he's going to turn 9 in a couple months (2 months from yesterday, actually :D). He is also a reluctant writer, and his journal entries in 1st grade at school were filled with empty writing prompts, because he couldn't just come up with something to say and write it down. His main issue was perfectionism - the fear that he would spell something wrong, and his spelling was not up to his reading ability (which was/is advanced). He's an average speller.

 

I used WWE1 in first grade, WWE2 in 2nd grade, though we only did half of it that year. Then in 3rd grade, we started with IEW SWI-A and did 3 units, then I realized I had been a slacker on narrations and got him to finish up WWE2, which we did last week. :D Now we'll finish up the year with unit 4 of IEW SWI-A.

 

Other writing my son does (and we have worked up to this!!!!):

 

R&S English lessons - I usually have him do about half the exercises, all written. Yes, we could move through quickly if we did it all orally, but the writing practice has been VERY good for him. We also do many of the writing assignments in there, as they come up. I adjust writing in other subjects if there is a paragraph or something to write in English.

 

R&S Spelling lessons - this is fill in the blank, sometimes having a couple sentences to write, but it's still writing. ;)

 

Pentime handwriting - learning cursive, doing a page per day

 

If I'm on the ball, I have him do a notebooking page once a week - that would involve taking "story paper" (blank top, lined bottom - you can make your own or print some from online) and having him draw a picture about something he read in history, science, or literature, then have him write 2-3 sentences about the topic. Again, we have worked up to this! I first had him draw a picture, then we started writing one sentence about the topic, and now he can do about 3 sentences.

 

For DS, we had to work on physical stamina for writing as well as that perfectionism issue. The stamina has been built up by simply making him write more and not doing everything orally. ;) The perfectionism was greatly helped by Pudewa (author of IEW) on the video telling him that his rough draft should be messy and he should write in PEN for the rough draft (pencil for the final copy), not worrying about spelling during the rough draft stage since we would edit that for the final copy - plus I'm a human dictionary that he can consult any time. As his spelling has improved this year, it's become much less of an issue. We also continue to do SWB's writing method - copywork, dictation, and narration. My plan is to do WWS in 5th or 6th - whenever he's ready. If you did WWE1 this year, then that puts you in WWE2 in 4th, WWE3 in 5th, and you could skip over to WWS in 6th. That would work very well. I don't think you'll have to rush to get there. You might add in other things like I did, but the biggest thing is to gradually increase the writing, so they don't realize they're writing as much as they are. ;)

 

I was mean this week and assigned a R&S English lesson that involved copying a conversation and placing the quotes of different people into new paragraphs as you're supposed to. It was 10 sentences! I didn't assign any other writing that day. Much to my surprise, he did it cheerfully (it was retelling a Bible story, and he loves that), and he wrote pretty neatly, and it covered the front and back of the entire page, double spaced, wide ruled. I was shocked that it took up that much space, but he did it! And it really didn't even take him that long. :hurray: I try to have only ONE big writing assignment like that per week. For example, if there is an IEW paragraph one week, which requires keyword outline one day, rough draft one day, and final copy another day, I won't assign any other big things that week. This week, knowing he would be writing 10 sentences at the end of the week, I just had him mostly doing 2 sentences the other days. Earlier in the week there was a short "paragraph" about himself, but it was pretty easy and not horribly long. I wrote the details on the white board so he would know how to spell things. That's where the keyword outline has helped a lot - the hard to spell words are usually in the KWO.

 

Anyway, don't panic. You sound like you're on track. Just gradually increase the writing over time. :)

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Even with using WWE, the child should do narrations and copywork from history, science, etc., right? I guess that's one thing I'm a bit confused about. If my DD writes out a narration for history, do I still do a WWE lesson that day? If I don't do both I don't think we would make it through a whole level of WWE in a year. Hope that makes sense.

 

 

 

We also use WWE and we do narrations in History and Science because I feel like that reinforces the skills. We use Elemental Science so usually after each section he reads he has to narrate what it was about, sometimes he will copy things from the book and something do a diagram or chart and sometimes just think of something from his brain. With History we do the same thing, typically once a week we work something out together for him to put down on paper. This week he drew the flag that Benjamin Franklin designed and wrote a sentence or two about the American Revolution. Worked for me.

 

I certainly see the merit of BW and subscribe to the BW Lifestyle but we haven't gone in with both feet and not sure if we will. WWE seems to be working and the narrations seem to be getting the job done, especially for my writing phobic son (a year ago).

 

BTW: We also just started homeschooling (well a little over a year now) and my son was in 2nd grade at the time. He was made to write a report on someone he admired and it had to be 10 --- YES TEN --- paragraphs, I thought that was ABSURD. Anyways, it was his last project and we were outta there. I started realizing that schools really push quantity over the QUALITY of the work. I want quality work. He now likes to do McGuffey readers and copy nice things out of them. He did a free write and took it to a friends house to work out more details of his story that he now wants to publish. So, being a year out of that first bit of panic I had in homeschool vs. public school. I am realizing that we are onto something here.

 

HTH.

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Definitely listen to the lectures by SWB on the writing process. Well worth the download fee. She really explains the writing process and her educational method with regard to writing. I think by using WWE and then moving onto WWS when your student is ready, she will have a rock-solid writing foundation. The lectures help you see the 'big picture' of her method.

 

Where do I find these?

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Thank you, Boscopup and SFM! Your posts were very encouraging to me!

 

I guess the easiest thing for me to do would be to JUST use WWE right now, along with narrations from history and science. But when I keep reading about people using BW, IEW, along with WWE, I feel like I'm not doing "enough" for some reason. Ha - I guess that's just the perfectionist in me coming out! Oh, and this particular DD (3rd grade) is NOT a perfectionist.

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I guess the easiest thing for me to do would be to JUST use WWE right now, along with narrations from history and science. But when I keep reading about people using BW, IEW, along with WWE, I feel like I'm not doing "enough" for some reason. Ha - I guess that's just the perfectionist in me coming out! Oh, and this particular DD (3rd grade) is NOT a perfectionist.

 

You do not have to use multiple programs. :)

 

I used just WWE for 1st and 2nd grade, and that was absolutely the right choice for my son. When we got to grade 3, I was still having issues with him freaking out over writing a single original sentence, so that's when I did more research and determined that IEW would be a good thing to add in for him. BUT... WWE is still very beneficial, and I absolutely love what I have seen in the WWS samples, and *I* need handholding to teach writing. I'm an engineer. :tongue_smilie:

 

IEW helped get my son writing paragraphs. Yes, I know, WWE doesn't expect a 3rd grader to do that, but at the same time, he was ready to do it... He just had a hard time putting even one original sentence onto paper. The keyword outline gave him a springboard. I think he'll do fine in the logic stage doing outlines, as that really helps him write (and hopefully he'll write the outline BEFORE writing the paper, unlike his mother :rolleyes: ). Now that he's out of his writing shell a bit, WWE is more effective, and I can do other things with him as well. So I've been very happy about that.

 

We'll use WWE3 this next year, and the other half of IEW SWI-A. We may skip some of the WWE dictation (DS has no problem holding a thought in his head long enough to write) to allow us to continue to move through WWE3 while also doing IEW. I alternate between them. I don't do them both in the same day. ;)

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You do not have to use multiple programs. :)

 

I used just WWE for 1st and 2nd grade, and that was absolutely the right choice for my son. When we got to grade 3, I was still having issues with him freaking out over writing a single original sentence, so that's when I did more research and determined that IEW would be a good thing to add in for him. BUT... WWE is still very beneficial, and I absolutely love what I have seen in the WWS samples, and *I* need handholding to teach writing. I'm an engineer. :tongue_smilie:

 

IEW helped get my son writing paragraphs. Yes, I know, WWE doesn't expect a 3rd grader to do that, but at the same time, he was ready to do it... He just had a hard time putting even one original sentence onto paper. The keyword outline gave him a springboard. I think he'll do fine in the logic stage doing outlines, as that really helps him write (and hopefully he'll write the outline BEFORE writing the paper, unlike his mother :rolleyes: ). Now that he's out of his writing shell a bit, WWE is more effective, and I can do other things with him as well. So I've been very happy about that.

 

We'll use WWE3 this next year, and the other half of IEW SWI-A. We may skip some of the WWE dictation (DS has no problem holding a thought in his head long enough to write) to allow us to continue to move through WWE3 while also doing IEW. I alternate between them. I don't do them both in the same day. ;)

 

 

Since I haven't focused much on an actual writing "course" yet, we'll probably continue for now with WWE2, but I admit it has already gotten some eye-rolling from my DD. I think she just needs more practice/routine. But I am curious, if I want to see what IEW is all about, what all do I need to get? I'm a little confused by everything on the site. Not sure yet right now about taking the financial plunge. Can one just try SWI-A without purchasing the whole teacher seminar stuff? Even just that is rather pricey!

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I know that "WWE" is Writing with Ease. What is IEW?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

IEW is The Institute for Excellence in Writing, you can find them here....http://www.excellenceinwriting.com/catalog

 

I hope that helps you out.

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Both are actually correct, the child can be 8 or 9. Many countries follow the same averages where a child is 8-9 for 3rd grade. It is simply to have a peg to go by to design curriculum towards a certain age-bracket. Our state says a child must be 5 by Sept. 5th before entering K, so with that standard, my dd was 1 month away from turning 6 when she started K, as her birthday falls in October. But we all know with homeschooling that grades don't matter much, so go at the child's level.

 

Here is a chart on US standards for age vs. grade levels, that some other countries follow as well:

 

Pre-K: Ages 3-4/4-5

Kindergarten: Ages 5-6

1st Grade: Ages 6-7

2nd Grade: Ages 7-8

3rd Grade: Ages 8-9

4th Grade: Ages 9-10

5th Grade: Ages 10-11

6th Grade: Ages 11-12

7th Grade: Ages 12-13

8th Grade: Ages 13-14

9th Grade: Ages 14-15

10th Grade: Ages 15-16

11th Grade: Ages 16-17

12th Grade: Ages 17-18

 

I think most kids go into the grade at the lower age and come out of the grade at the higher age.

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