Men's Rights Movement

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

This is exactly dh's experience in the workplace. People talk to eachother with honesty; they don't necessarily offer up these types of details in "studies", especially men. I don't buy that this doesn't happen simply because of a few studies. And frankly, the men I know are the least of the whiners out there. I'm sad that so many here think a man today needs to take responsibility for the mistakes their grandfathers made and that there are even in this thread, people calling men names.

 

Here's another example about large companies fearing lawsuits. Dh uses a tool commonly called "dykes". Because of fear, the company has put in place new language so as not to offend anyone and be sued, so now dh has to say, "Hand me the diagonal pliers," rather than, "hand me the dykes," because someone in ear shot might be a Lesbian woman and get offended. It's absolutely ridiculous.

 

That's "dikes" not "dykes" and DH's company still calls them dikes. The lesbians on his crew do not feel oppressed by an electrician's tool called dikes.

[Alenee]

That's "dikes" not "dykes" and DH's company still calls them dikes. The lesbians on his crew do not feel oppressed by an electrician's tool called dikes.

 

How nice of you to correct my spelling. That's great that your dh's company can continue in this manner. It isn't like that everywhere. I could not say who would be offended and who would not; not sure how you would be able to do that either. But I digress...

 

This thread has gone down the typical road with the bullies pulling all their tricks. I'm out.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

How nice of you to correct my spelling. That's great that your dh's company can continue in this manner. It isn't like that everywhere. I could not say who would be offended and who would not; not sure how you would be able to do that either. But I digress...

 

This thread has gone down the typical road with the bullies pulling all their tricks. I'm out.

 

I corrected your spelling not because I'm a bully but because the spelling is pertinent to the conversation.

 

"Dyke" is usually meant to be a derogatory term for a homosexual woman.

 

"Dikes" are a hand tool.

 

The distinction matters in this case. You are not being bullied, you are being disagreed with, and that distinction matters, as well.

[Impish]

I don't know that my brother's experience is representative of everyone, everywhere. I'm simply saying that he had a harder time becoming a police officer b/c of the fact that he was a white maie, regardless of the rationale behind it. It was his experience, it was the reason given, it simply is.

[Jennifer3141]

Its his perception or the perception of someone he had a conversation with in a certain city at a certain time.

 

 

That perception could be colored by all sorts of experiences.

 

I'd personally be tempted to laugh in the face of anyone who ever suggested my dh had a harder time because of his status as a middle class white male.

 

But that's just me

 

 

Awesome post! :)

[ktgrok]

 

Try The Waltons, and Little House on the Prairie.

 

7th Heaven is ok, and The Cosby Show is always a favorite as well. We also love Leave it To Beaver reruns.

[LucyStoner]

 

I'd personally be tempted to laugh in the face of anyone who ever suggested my dh had a harder time because of his status as a middle class white male.

 

But that's just me

 

Yeah, even my white male from affluence husband notices the differences that are in his favor. He's (gently) corrected people on it too, when someone is ignoring an earlier customer who is not a well dressed white man in his favor etc. It's hard for people to see the privileges they have and to admit when those things are unfair. Until someone of privilege acknowledges that they do in fact have that privilege, it is almost imposible to talk genuinely about these issues with them.

[Impish]

Its his perception or the perception of someone he had a conversation with in a certain city at a certain time.

 

 

That perception could be colored by all sorts of experiences.

 

I'd personally be tempted to laugh in the face of anyone who ever suggested my dh had a harder time because of his status as a middle class white male.

 

But that's just me

 

Oh, ok. So glad you could correct me about my brother's experience, and what he was told by the officers in recruiting and during the hiring process. Esp here in Canada. I didn't realize you knew better than the person directly involved.

[mommymilkies]

Hmmm. My husband was told by a guy at a temp agency, back in 2004 when we were trying to get back to Austin, to "whiten" up his name on his resume.

really? where? I haven't seen any females (or males) I would have wanted my kids to emulate. (gadget from rescue rangers - but she was a chipmunk?) we can't watch mythbusters without my dd complaining on their lack of scientific method (hey - it's entertainment. the object is to make it blow up.). the only 'drama' we watch at all is NCIS - and I have my issues about that too.

 

Rescue Rangers. I love you.

 

I admit I must be out of the loop for all this man-hating in society. Sure, not all men are treated as loving geniuses. But NOBODY is treated perfectly in society or the media. Seriously.

[Alenee]

Oh, ok. So glad you could correct me about my brother's experience, and what he was told by the officers in recruiting and during the hiring process. Esp here in Canada. I didn't realize you knew better than the person directly involved.

 

Exactly.

[Tap]

Dh worked for a huge international company for many years. White males were not what the company wanted. He didn't face discrimination as a white man, but he did see other races/sexual orientations unjustly protected, because the company feared lawsuits if they appeared discriminatory.

 

Dh helped to hire many employees, it wasn't his perception. It was clearly laid out what the company wanted and how they wanted it done.

[Meriwether]

My brother wanted to be a vet. He was told as a freshman that the school of his choice would accept every female and minority they could, even those less qualified, ahead of him. He changed his major. He is doing extremely well in his profession. It isn't that his whole life was blighted, but he did run up against this.

 

 

ETA: This isn't a comment on the Men's Rights Movement in general. My brother is a superb example of manliness. He is extremely hardworking, courteous to everyone he interacts with, treats his wife like a queen. He's 6'6" with broad shoulders and a beard. You'd think small kids would be scared of him, but he is so gentle and fun that he's like the Pied Piper. He would never treat women with disrespect. I can't imagine any of the men in my family participating in the discussions described.

[NotSoObvious]

 

 

This is not borne out by statistics. Have you read any books on this topic?

 

 

 

They could start here.

http://www.uakron.edu/dotAsset/1662103.pdf

 

 

 

 

[mommymilkies]

My brother wanted to be a vet. He was told as a freshman that the school of his choice would accept every female and minority they could, even those less qualified, ahead of him. He changed his major. He is doing extremely well in his profession. It isn't that his whole life was blighted, but he did run up against this.

ETA: This isn't a comment on the Men's Rights Movement in general. My brother is a superb example of manliness. He is extremely hardworking, courteous to everyone he interacts with, treats his wife like a queen. He's 6'6" with broad shoulders and a beard. You'd think small kids would be scared of him, but he is so gentle and fun that he's like the Pied Piper. He would never treat women with disrespect. I can't imagine any of the men in my family participating in the discussions described.

 

Dh has had many vet students (he's a college professor) and never found this to be the case. They all easily got into the schools they wanted. Only one was a female. All were white and rural. I think your brother should have stuck it out and not listened to whatever idiot told him that.

[Murphy101]

While I agree that the linked movement is a bad representation of men, I do think men in general, of any ethnicity, are coming up against more and more prejudice.

 

A chess board set out in a library. A man wants to play a game and offers to play a round with kid. OMG. Must be a pedo.

 

Many many times men are automaticly viewed with fear and suspection for doing nothing different than any woman.

 

Then there is the flip side of damned if they do and damned if they don't. Open a door for a lady? It's at best 50/50 they won't be called chavanistic pig as given a thank you for common courtesy.

 

We may have come a ways in paternal custody, but not nearly far enough.

 

I do see reverse discrimination of white men. Sometimes it's fear of lawsuits or just to qualify for grants or whatever.

 

As for statistics...

 

What's the saying?

 

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain quoting Disraeli.

 

 

[Murphy101]

 

 

Dh has had many vet students (he's a college professor) and never found this to be the case. They all easily got into the schools they wanted. Only one was a female. All were white and rural. I think your brother should have stuck it out and not listened to whatever idiot told him that.

 

 

Actually I have no doubt what the guy told him was true. Basicly he was informed the program is actively seeking raising the number of minorities in their programs. I also completely agree he should have pursued it anyways. Or at east looked further into the likelihood of being bumped for that reason, because the odds are in his favor when there's only 1 or 2 minorities who even try for the program.

 

The problem becomes when there are lots of minorities trying for the program, thus the need for selective recruitment isn't necessary but is still being used,

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

As a feminist, I believe strongly in equal treatment for all people. This includes gender, race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. We still have a long way to go bringing women (and others) up to equal footing.

 

Life is not fair, but that doesn't make inequality right or acceptable.

[Joanne]

 

 

 

Then there is the flip side of damned if they do and damned if they don't. Open a door for a lady? It's at best 50/50 they won't be called chavanistic pig as given a thank you for common courtesy.

 

 

 

50/50 is so not my experience on this one that I am shocked. I have never in my 47 years seen or heard a real story of a woman complaining about a held door. Ever. On doors, I see people of both genders and all ages hold doors and I observe most are welcomed with a thank you.

[Jennifer3141]

Dh has had many vet students (he's a college professor) and never found this to be the case. They all easily got into the schools they wanted. Only one was a female. All were white and rural. I think your brother should have stuck it out and not listened to whatever idiot told him that.

 

 

 

Our current vet graduated recently from one of the top vet schools in the country (MSU!!) and he had a BLAST! There were far more women than men but he was never discouraged from attending. He said his academics got him in easily.

 

He had a hard time dating during it but I can spot that problem easily. He's one of those "good guys" whose shoulder you cry on when the bad guy is a jerk. :)

And he said he has a pool of women vet friends who will be there for him at the drop of a hat.

 

My vet is the one on the bottom: http://www.suttonsba...om/doctors.html

He's cute as a button and when you tease him, his ears turn red. :D

And I've never met the vet above him but there's yet another white male who graduated from MSU in 2011. So they must not be too rare.

 

And I'm good friends with a female vet who graduated from MSU decades earlier. She was actively discouraged time and again by the program. She graduated with just one other female friend and it was HARD. And then it was hard for them to find jobs. My female friend had to work three times as long to be offered a partnership as any of the men. Thirty years ago women in science fields were aberrations.

[LisaKinVA]

My husband was told similar things when applying to certain colleges (he was the perfect candidate...except he wasn't a minority, and they only took minorities from his state). As business owners, we feared being sued when we felt we had to let go a certain employee (we had documented cause, but we were still nervous). My son is competing for a certain program...he hasn't been denied or accepted yet, but I *know* my daughter, who will have similar credentials at that age, probably won't have to wait until the last minute for a response, but of the two my *son* is actually much more interested in the program, my *daughter* just wants to say she got in. I don't have the article at hand, but I also believe that I read that we are at the point where there are more women applying for, attending, and graduating from college than men...does that mean we have put such a focus on preparing girls and women, that we have essentially put boys and young men at a disadvantage?

 

This isn't to say that there aren't abusive, self-important men out there...racism, sexism...and many other isms come in various shapes, colors, religions, etc. And simply because one person was oppressed at one time does not justify oppressing another due to their race, religion, or gender.

[Murphy101]

50/50 is so not my experience on this one that I am shocked. I have never in my 47 years seen or heard a real story of a woman complaining about a held door. Ever. On doors, I see people of both genders and all ages hold doors and I observe most are welcomed with a thank you.

 

 

Okay? Not sure what response you want from me. I'm not lying. I'm glad you've never had a negative experience.

 

My dh was once called into HR for it bc apparently someone complained. I'll grant that he said the HR person was generally, "I don't know wth her issue is, but quit being gentlemanly to her. She says it's insulting and sexist."

Um. Okay. Dh had absolutely no idea how to stop being gentlemanly, so he basicly avoided the woman as much as possible.

 

I've had mixed views on my sons and daughters too. My sons not only open doors for me, but for their sisters. I've had some people compliment me on it. But I've had just as many comment that they don't think it's right to teach my daughters to be submissive to men. I'm not at all teaching that, nor do I practice it myself, so that attitude always throws me for a loop.

 

I'll admit many people presume a LOT when they see a woman with 10 kids. Many stereotypes that they've seen on tv or whatever. And that might account for my different experiences. I've had lots of people just assume if my girls are wearing dresses that it's because I insist it's all they wear. Idk. I suppose the attitudes I've seen are more a reflection of reacting to a stereotype than men?

 

My dh says that he doesn't advertise his wife is a homeschooling sahm or that he has 10 kids for the same reason. People tend to presume only religious nuts and patriarchal oppressive men do that and are often shocked when they find out my dh has a large homeschooling family.

 

[butterflymommy]

Again, the facts and statistics don't bear out the assertion that you put forth, and I don't buy the police experience story as representative either.

 

 

Employment is well studied and unemployment remains higher (significantly) for males of color.

 

 

I think I've mentioned this on the board before. We are good friends without someone responsible for interviewing and hiring for the legal department of a major local corporation.

 

He has tremendous-- but unwritten/ unofficial-- pressure to hire "minority candidates." Meaning non-asian minorities, especially female. He has been in situations where writing samples and resumes were worlds apart, with the white candidate being more skilled, yet still having his superior (who is a black woman) look him in the eye and tell him to reconsider the non-asian minority candidate.

 

Yet, even with this pressure in place, there still are relatively few blacks or hispanics in the department. So just because the face of a company is mostly white doesn't mean there isn't discrimination against qualified whites taking place, especially against white males.

 

I'm of the camp that ANY kind of discrimination is wrong and that the job should go to the most qualified candidate. If you have equally qualified candidates, flip a coin.

[Danestress]

 

 

50/50 is so not my experience on this one that I am shocked. I have never in my 47 years seen or heard a real story of a woman complaining about a held door. Ever. On doors, I see people of both genders and all ages hold doors and I observe most are welcomed with a thank you.

 

Agreed. Perhaps this is regional. Holding a door for someone is very common here. A man will almost always hold a door for a woman, but women will hold for each other or a man. It's very normal and in no way remarkable. This is true in malls, work places, restaurants. I have never ever heard a negative response.

[Parrothead]

I corrected your spelling not because I'm a bully but because the spelling is pertinent to the conversation.

 

"Dyke" is usually meant to be a derogatory term for a homosexual woman.

 

"Dikes" are a hand tool.

 

The distinction matters in this case. You are not being bullied, you are being disagreed with, and that distinction matters, as well.

To be quite honest, it read like a correction of spelling and a "it doesn't happen at my husband's job so how can it possibly happen at your husband's."

 

Perhaps if you had written two separate sentences.

[Parrothead]

But this is because police forces need minority police officers to work with those populations. If you send an Hispanic police officer into an Hispanic neighborhood, he will get more cooperation than if you send a white police officer in. Minority populations do not trust white police officers for good reasons. I am not saying that all white police officers treat minorities badly. However, there is a history of that happening.

 

Female officers are needed because there are situations where a female officer might be more appropriate. I can imagine a female rape victim being more open and honest with a female officer.

 

It isn't about quotas and discrimination against white males. It is about serving the people in the best manner possible.

I'm living proof that this is not always the case. I was told flat out by the hiring board I got my job as a police officer/fire fighter simply because I was the woman who applied.

 

Its his perception or the perception of someone he had a conversation with in a certain city at a certain time.

 

 

That perception could be colored by all sorts of experiences.

 

I'd personally be tempted to laugh in the face of anyone who ever suggested my dh had a harder time because of his status as a middle class white male.

 

But that's just me

 

Perhaps not where your dh works. But it does happen with quite a bit of frequency. To not believe it does in some areas is to be a bit naive. As I said above, I'm the woman who got the job just because I'm female. It happens.

[Murphy101]

 

To be quite honest, it read like a correction of spelling and a "it doesn't happen at my husband's job so how can it possibly happen at your husband's."

 

Perhaps if you had written two separate sentences.

 

I did too. Because the spelling is completely irrelevant as they are pronounced the same and the purpose of renaming was to avoid the possible slander of an overheard word in the workplace, not a written word.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

To be quite honest, it read like a correction of spelling and a "it doesn't happen at my husband's job so how can it possibly happen at your husband's."

 

Perhaps if you had written two separate sentences.

I did too. Because the spelling is completely irrelevant as they are pronounced the same and the purpose of renaming was to avoid the possible slander of an overheard word in the workplace, not a written word.

 

I don't think the spelling is irrelevant. The reason my husband's company still calls them "dikes" is because "dikes" has never meant "dykes." I'm sorry y'all don't like my post but I don't see any option but to stand by it.

[Parrothead]

Agreed. Perhaps this is regional. Holding a door for someone is very common here. A man will almost always hold a door for a woman, but women will hold for each other or a man. It's very normal and in no way remarkable. This is true in malls, work places, restaurants. I have never ever heard a negative response.

 

I went to Rite Aid last week and as I was leaving I met a gentleman at the door. There was a very noticeable hesitation when he opened the door. I'll freely admit he could have been thinking a thousand other things and the door being there was a bit of a surprise. But I'd bed money he hesitated because he didn't know if I was one of those women who would blast him for opening the door for a woman or if I would simply say "thank you" and be on my way.

[Parrothead]

I don't think the spelling is irrelevant. The reason my husband's company still calls them "dikes" is because "dikes" has never meant "dykes." I'm sorry y'all don't like my post but I don't see any option but to stand by it.

 

As I said earlier it wasn't the correction of spelling. Rather the rest of the sentence.

[Parrothead]

Was it really? Do tell. I am fascinated.

 

So... You think she is lying? To what purpose?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

As I said earlier it wasn't the correction of spelling. Rather the rest of the sentence.

 

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I'm rather done with this critique, thanks.

[Danestress]

 

 

I went to Rite Aid last week and as I was leaving I met a gentleman at the door. There was a very noticeable hesitation when he opened the door. I'll freely admit he could have been thinking a thousand other things and the door being there was a bit of a surprise. But I'd bed money he hesitated because he didn't know if I was one of those women who would blast him for opening the door for a woman or if I would simply say "thank you" and be on my way.

 

Yes, you may be right. That is why I am guessing it is regional. Where one person lives, 50% of the time the woman blasts the man. Where I live, I honestly have never heard that happen in 46 years. I can think of no way to explain that other than a regional difference in custom.

[Caroline]

 

I'm living proof that this is not always the case. I was told flat out by the hiring board I got my job as a police officer/fire fighter simply because I was the woman who applied.

 

 

 

 

I am not sure how this counters what I said. They needed a woman in the department. You applied. They hired you. Police and fire departments should have women and minorities in them because there are qualities that they can bring to the job that white men cannot. I don't know what is so wrong about that.

[Parrothead]

I am not sure how this counters what I said. They needed a woman in the department. You applied. They hired you. Police and fire departments should have women and minorities in them because there are qualities that they can bring to the job that white men cannot. I don't know what is so wrong about that.

 

 

I wasn't hired because of the qualities I brought to the table. They didn't need a woman in the department for any reason other than affirmative action.

[Caroline]

 

 

I wasn't hired because of the qualities I brought to the table. They didn't need a woman in the department for any reason other than affirmative action.

 

 

So you are saying that there is no reason for a police or fire department to have women? And you were in no way qualified for the job? They should never have hired you?

[poppy]

There are as many good male role models on TV as women. How about all those cop shows? Booth on Bones, Castle, etc. There aren't good young male role models, but show me a good young female role model? Boys also get most politicians and most athletes if they are looking for role models.

[LisaKinVA]

So you are saying that there is no reason for a police or fire department to have women?

 

Oh Good grief! You *know* that isn't what she said. She said she was hired because she was a woman... period...and that they had no *need* to hire a woman for that job.

 

This doesn't mean that hiring women in fire departments and police/sheriff departments isn't *ever* done without merit.

[Parrothead]

So you are saying that there is no reason for a police or fire department to have women? And you were in no way qualified for the job? They should never have hired you?

 

Way to twist words.

 

A number of people here are arguing that affirmative action never happens. I'm saying that yes, it does. My hiring was a result of affirmative action. I'm not saying they should never have hired me. What I'm saying is if they didn't have to hire me they wouldn't have. Big difference.

[Parrothead]

Oh Good grief! You *know* that isn't what she said. She said she was hired because she was a woman... period...and that they had no *need* to hire a woman for that job.

 

This doesn't mean that hiring women in fire departments and police/sheriff departments isn't *ever* done without merit.

 

Thank you.

[Caroline]

 

 

Oh Good grief! You *know* that isn't what she said. She said she was hired because she was a woman... period...and that they had no *need* to hire a woman for that job.

 

This doesn't mean that hiring women in fire departments and police/sheriff departments isn't *ever* done without merit.

 

Really? You don't see it as ridiculous for someone to say we only hired you because you are a woman? You don't find that insulting? Someone is essentially saying you aren't qualified.

[poppy]

I find it kind of fascinating that so many examples people give for the need for a men's right movement have to do with white men being passed over for minorities (presumbly many of whom are men). Very revealing, to me, about the real roots of aggrevation here.

[Parrothead]

Really? You don't see it as ridiculous for someone to say we only hired you because you are a woman? You don't find that insulting? Someone is essentially saying you aren't qualified.

 

Just because it is ridiculous and insulting doesn't make it untrue. And I took the job knowing it was ridiculous and insulting. Because I needed the job. I kept it for 11 years, and quit on my own terms.

 

The good 'ol boy system is very alive and well in many pockets of the country. That is the reality of it. I'm not saying it is right, but it is true. It was especially true 25 years ago.

 

As much as we like to think we are more enlightened, it isn't always the case.

[Mrs Mungo]

Chucki, you don't see the incongruity of saying that the good ol' boy system is alive and well *and* that white men are being disqualified from jobs strictly because of affirmative action?

 

Again, national statistics (which are very different from personal anecdotes) do not bear out that white men cannot get jobs because they are oppressed. *That* is the claim being made by the groups in question.

[mom31257]

I do not have time to read this whole thread, but as the wife to a white man over 40 who was laid off his job and hasn't been able to find another, let me say that discrimination against them does happen. The last 2 hired in my dh's department at school were black women, and my dh remembers the principal (who is black) talking about being glad to have diversity in the department (social studies). When two lay-offs needed to happen, the 2 white men over 40 began having little write-ups in their evaluations (after years of good evaluations), and those two were laid off instead of the last hired. One write-up was because my dh was writing the Essential Question of the Day on the board as the students were walking in instead of having it up before. One write-up was because a question was worded (what disciplines were affected by the scientific revolution?) and didn't list the actual disciplines dh taught about that day.

 

He just applied for a great job at a technical college that would have been a job he would have loved and even had a reference from inside the department, but the whole department is women and the person hiring is a woman. Because of things he's seen out of the department head, he believes he wasn't given a chance because he is a man.

 

He and I would never advocate a group that is derogatory toward women, though. My dh is a kind, gentle man who respects all people.

[LucyStoner]

Then there is the flip side of damned if they do and damned if they don't. Open a door for a lady? It's at best 50/50 they won't be called chavanistic pig as given a thank you for common courtesy.

 

 

 

 

Um, I have walked through a thousand open doors and never called anyone out. My husband opens doors all the time and he's never been called out by anyone. I also hold open doors for people just behind me (male, female, young, old, kid, whatever). It's just common courtesy not to let a door swing into someone's face. At best 50/50? At best an exaggeration. ETA: It bears noting that I live in a very progressive place where feminism is the norm, not the exception and this still is never an issue.

[LisaKinVA]

I find it kind of fascinating that so many examples people give for the need for a men's right movement have to do with white men being passed over for minorities (presumbly many of whom are men). Very revealing, to me, about the real roots of aggrevation here.

 

I'm not speaking to the "need" for a men's rights movement...simply providing personal experience to counter the claim that white men are *never* passed over *because* they are white. And I *do* get tired of checking off little demographic boxes on every application I complete for myself or my kids. No one should *not* be given a job, or be denied admittance to a college program, or a summer camp for the sole reason that they are black, brown, white, yellow or pink.

 

My boys should not be at a disadvantage because they were born white and male, any more than my girls should be at an advantage because they are female. They should both be judged based upon their hard work, and their desire to pursue a certain goal.

 

The frustration stems from working hard, and being told that it essentially doesn't matter how hard you work, you will *not* be admitted to X school from your state, because you are the wrong color/gender. You *won't* get that promotion, because the system is looking for a "female" for that slot (because females are historically underrepresented in this field, not because the job *needs* a female, but because the *system* is looking to fill an "unofficial" quota).

 

This doesn't mean that this is true for the general population, or borne out in overwhelming statistics, but those statistics change over time. As the boomers exit, and with fewer and fewer men entering and graduating from college, the work force will most likely be dominated by women in 20-30 years...is that a bad thing? If it came at the expense of purposely downgrading men in order to prop up women...then, yes...it is a bad thing.

 

You cannot fix what happened to one person in 1960 by harming another person in 2013..,

[Ghee]

Um, I have walked through a thousand open doors and never called anyone out. My husband opens doors all the time and he's never been called out by anyone. I also hold open doors for people just behind me (male, female, young, old, kid, whatever). It's just common courtesy not to let a door swing into someone's face. At best 50/50? At best an exaggeration. ETA: It bears noting that I live in a very progressive place where feminism is the norm, not the exception and this still is never an issue.

 

It might not be 50/50 chances, but it does happen. My uncle moved from TN to Kansas to teach at a university. He grew up in Tn in the 60s/70s and was taught to say ma'am, hold the door for women, etc... He was walking his (all female) students to another classroom, held the door, and said "Ladies, after you" whereupon he promptly got his behind handed to him. He was told he was being sexist, a womanizer, that he was "making a point that they are female". Now this was all by the students, not by a supervisor. Anyway, later, at home, he commented that he could think of a far more colorful term to use if they didn't want to be called ladies. I'd say, in his situation, he was darned no matter what he did.

 

Eta: my point is that, while I don't think the majority of folks do it, there are people who are just bristling to say they are discriminated against. It is never that they weren't suited for the job, or someone else was better suited..,,for the, it's ALWAYS that they are a woman, or black, or whatever. They look for anything they can turn into being a way of putting them down, even someone trying to be polite. Those are the people that leave a bad taste in someone's mouth, and turn people off to whatever movement they claim to be a part of.

[LucyStoner]

If someone wants to read a good book about the struggle of men in the last couple of generations without reading politically driven blame game gender war tripe, they should check out: Stiffed: the Betrayal of the American Man. It's an older book by Susan Faludi but well worth the read. It's good enough that it's survived 13 years of book culling in our house and is still on our shelves. (Though I just opened it and saw that might be because it was the first gift I gave my husband after we started dating. There's a very corny inscription made out to him by me :001_wub: and it is a signed by the author copy.) Still, we both really enjoyed it. It's available super cheap in the original hardcover.

[LucyStoner]

It might not be 50/50 chances, but it does happen. My uncle moved from TN to Kansas to teach at a university. He grew up in Tn in the 60s/70s and was taught to say ma'am, hold the door for women, etc... He was walking his (all female) students to another classroom, held the door, and said "Ladies, after you" whereupon he promptly got his behind handed to him. He was told he was being sexist, a womanizer, that he was "making a point that they are female". Now this was all by the students, not by a supervisor. Anyway, later, at home, he commented that he could think of a far more colorful term to use if they didn't want to be called ladies. I'd say, in his situation, he was darned no matter what he did.

 

This underscores how the exaggeration grows. It happens here or there, and naturally even once to any one man makes a huge impression because it's so uncalled for and in your face looking for a pointless fight bs. So the story gets told and retold and suddenly the fish was 5 feet long and it happens all the time to all nice men. Until suddenly everyone perceives a majority of women to be like a group immature, reactionary undergrads looking for their first gender conflict. And then you end up with both nice men and angry men, who this may or may not have ever actually happened to, afraid to hold open the door for the little old lady heading towards it. Yeesh. I founded a group in college called Fiery Feminist Fury. We were too busy addressing campus violence towards women and hosting women authors and musicians to give a rat's behind who was or was not opening doors.

[Parrothead]

It's a crazy world Mrs. Mungo.

 

The GOB system is alive and well in pockets of the country.

White men are being disqualified from jobs for being white males. It may not be the norm nationally but it is happening.

In many areas white males are not oppressed by affirmative action.

In a number of areas they are.

 

I don't make the rules. But nothing is ever as cut and dried as many people would like us to believe. People are saying on this thread that no, it isn't happening. Maybe not where they are, but it is happening. Turning a blind eye to it doesn't make it go away. It doesn't make it better.

 

Truthfully is it not limited to jobs either.

 

I think a lot of men have a reason to be angry. Just as I think, at the other end of the spectrum, that a lot of women have reason to be angry.

 

There is so little middle ground. I don't know if there ever will be. We have a long way to go before all people are judged on their merits and abilities and not their genitals. Be it employment, child custody, etc.