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Men's Rights Movement


lil' maids in a row
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Oh the dangers of exploring the internet :huh: . Last night I stumbled upon the Men's Rights Movement (Voiced in websites like ... A Voice for Men, What Men are Saying about Women, Men Going Their Own Way). Ummm, I don't know what to say, other than it was just bizarre. Don't get me wrong, I can understand how men could be upset about negative stereotypes in the media, unfair accusations made by some feminists, schools that often cater more to girls, and divorce and custody laws that sometimes favor moms, but this seems to be a much uglier movement than what would be needed to bring more balance to these issues. I would disregard the sites, but they have MILIONS of hits.

 

So has anyone else heard of the Men's Rights Movement? What do you think of it? Does it have legitimate greivances? Has this sort of thing always been there (and I have just been living under a rock), or is it gaining momentum?

 

WARNING- if you check out any of the websites be aware that they use some really foul words to describe women, and have some questionable images (though I didn't see anything pornagraphic). Some of these sites are flagged as hate groups.

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Hmmm. I've never thought much about it. I do remember checking into a father's rights group when my husband was involved in a custody battle with his ex. I found them weirder and more offensive than the ex, so that's saying something. I don't remember anything outright inflammatory, more just a general feeling of creepiness.

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I had no idea this existed but I can say that dh has become increasingly frustrated that the tables have been turned so that white men in this country have to go to greater lengths than men of other ethnic backgrounds or women in general to prove their worth.

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I had no idea this existed but I can say that dh has become increasingly frustrated that the tables have been turned so that white men in this country have to go to greater lengths than men of other ethnic backgrounds or women in general to prove their worth.

 

as the mother of sons . . . I have really been disgusted by the amount of humor aimed at bashing males. I've seen *many* examples on many separate occasions. on one, I stopped at a grocery store to purchase a humorous/thinking of you card for my dd on the other side of the country - every. single. one. was about 1)bashing males, or 2) - sex. I complained to the male manager who was happy to take my complaint and direct me to another store to purchase something more apprpriate - and he said he had no control over what they stocked. the card buyer was a woman.

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I had no idea this existed but I can say that dh has become increasingly frustrated that the tables have been turned so that white men in this country have to go to greater lengths than men of other ethnic backgrounds or women in general to prove their worth.

 

Yea, we white men are so downtrodden. Not.

 

Gimme a break!

 

Bill

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I think men are the butt of a lot of jokes, and are portrayed as Homer Simpson (stupid, coarse, etc) type characters, but I do NOT think the solution lies in hurling insults at women. There needs to be more respect, not less.

 

I don't watch the simpsons - I watched one ep when it was new because my dd wanted to, her friends at school were all into it. I was disgusted at the put-down humor and said "no". start paying more attention to advertising (men are frequently portrayed as dufuses, while mom saves the day). it's also absurd when a group complains they are treated poorly and then do the exact. same. thing. look in a mirror much? it actually crops up a lot in family court.
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While it is true that media presentations of men are more of the "dumb Dora" variety than previously, the claim that men are widely discriminated against are just patently absurd. It's a classic case of those with privilege calling increased equality discrimination. Uh, no.

 

 

Men are widely discriminated against in divorce and custody issues. Custody and support are frequently given to the woman simply because she is a woman and mother. It's been the default for a long time, and more nuanced judgments are a very recent thing and still only occur in some areas. Frustration over this is where a lot of the Men's Rights Movement began, and that's a valid issue for them to pursue.

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There are people of every classification who decide that they enjoy being aggrieved, and that this perpetual sense of grievance dispenses them from the normal rules of civility with regard to those against whom they bear that grievance. Weighing the validity of their grievances misses the point entirely.

 

In their own eyes, they are justified by the treatment they've convinced themselves they've received; or, they've been on the receiving end long enough; or, it's healthy to vent; or, the time for tolerance has passed. Singly, they're just jerks; in groups, they can revel in their jerkiness and feel it to be a virtue.

 

The internet is, of couse, awash with such people.

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Men are widely discriminated against in divorce and custody issues. Custody and support are frequently given to the woman simply because she is a woman and mother. It's been the default for a long time, and more nuanced judgments are a very recent thing and still only occur in some areas.

 

My dad's cousin received custody of his *ex*-wife's kids because she was such a poor excuse for a mother. They weren't even his kids by blood! The eldest is close to my age, and I am 40. They lived in California.

 

I think women often receive the kids because they are usually more involved with the kids. My dh wouldn't even be able to tell you what classes my kids take on what days. I once went to a 3 day conference, he took off work so that I could. I had to make him a spreadsheet so that he would know where to be when, and he still missed a music lesson.

 

Edited to fix dumb phone typos.

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My dad's cousin received custody of his *ex*-wife's kids because she was such a poor excuse for a mother. They weren't even his kids by blood! I think women often receive the kids because they are usually more involved with the kids. My dh wouldn't even be able to tell you what classes my kids take on what days. I once went to a 3 day conference, he take off work so that I could. I had to make him a spreadsheet so that he would know where to be when, and he still missed a music lesson.

 

 

Thank you, too. Parenting within a marriage isn't usually 50/50.

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Men are widely discriminated against in divorce and custody issues. Custody and support are frequently given to the woman simply because she is a woman and mother. It's been the default for a long time, and more nuanced judgments are a very recent thing and still only occur in some areas. Frustration over this is where a lot of the Men's Rights Movement began, and that's a valid issue for them to pursue.

 

 

Yet women and children somehow typically end up worse off standard of living wise after divorces and men better off.

 

In my state and many others, the default custody order is 50-50 regardless of which parent is better for the kids. This "movement" conveniently ignores the inconvenient truth that more women than men have custody because more men than women abdicate parental responsibility. The number of single mothers whose child support goes unpaid by absent dads far exceeds the number of men who are frustrated with their custody agreements. Alimony is all but unheard of in many states except in cases of the super rich or when the divorced woman is an older or elderly homemaker. My father was not well treated after his first marriage by the courts- that was 35 years ago. Things have changed significantly.

 

This "movement" is also about a heck of a lot more than divorce rights. It's about minimizing rape and domestic violence, claiming that men are abused in equal numbers to women, and about whining about having to compete with women in the workforce. The Southern Poverty Law group counts it as a hate group. Perusal of any site beating this drum seems to result in reading a lot of hateful comments about the value of women (in cruder terms than I just used) and moaning about having to pay child support after fathering a child. Cry me a river.

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My sons have all the necessities of life in a fairly safe, lower-middle class midwestern setting, an excellent education, an involved father, the same parents who have been married (to each other) for 18 years, community support, and lots of natural talent.

 

And I'm not raising whiners. If life deals you cards like that, it's your job to play 'em well. Nobody else owes you a thing if you don't. The first boy of mine who joins a Men's Rights Movement can tell his new group all about the time his Mama slapped him so hard his eyeballs rotated.

 

(edited to remove some personal information)

Edited by Tibbie Dunbar
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While it is true that media presentations of men are more of the "dumb Dora" variety than previously, the claim that men are widely discriminated against are just patently absurd. It's a classic case of those with privilege calling increased equality discrimination. Uh, no.

 

 

Plus the media is full of things that are anti-women. Jokes, images, insinuations... Men hardly have a monopoly on complaints about representation in the media.

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As the mother of 4 white males, soon to be 5, I do lament the fact that there are so few male role models in the media worth looking up to. I'm talking about family friendly sitcom type media.

 

Men are shown as goofballs sidekick types, womanizing cads who are good for a laugh, frustrated husbands and fathers who would rather watch football and drink beer than interact with their families, or somewhat smart but totally clueless Everybody Loves Raymond types who are nice enough but so emotionally immature they can't handle marriage and parenthood in a competent way and are always causing problems.

 

I just want my boys to be able to watch functional, emotionally mature, strong men who are considerate towards other human beings on television and film. I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional family, I'm tired of having dysfunction shown on television as if it is the new norm. I want to see more husbands and fathers on tv who have it together.

 

I don't know why that is so much to ask for. I feel like there are plenty of great role models in the media for girls, why not more for boys?

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Plus the media is full of things that are anti-women. Jokes, images, insinuations... Men hardly have a monopoly on complaints about representation in the media.

 

 

:iagree: Yeah, let's not forget that for a long time the only media representations of women were the "dumb Doras". That is why the character type is called "Dora" and not "Derek". How many products are, to this day, sold by sexually objectifying women, often in ways that are suggestive of violence? Too many to flipping count.

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Plus the media is full of things that are anti-women. Jokes, images, insinuations... Men hardly have a monopoly on complaints about representation in the media.

 

And let us not forget that many (most? All?) of the idiot roles are written by men. White men. The same group who have written idiot roles for women and minorities, just a different generation of them. Let's just not watch their shows. Because they're stupid.

 

This is akin to finding a "white rights" website. It would be laughable except it's crazy enough to be scary.

 

Also, since there are scholarships for left-handed people, I am going to start a group for right-handed rights. Away with those green handled scissors!

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The media I was speaking of were family movies, films, tv and media specifically geared towards children. There are plenty of great heroines for my girls (Brave, Tangled) but I'm not seeing compelling characters for my boys. I 'suppose films like The Avengers are meant to be marketed towards young males, but I really don't care for those types of films.

 

I agree, media as a whole is wrought with horrible representations of women, often distrubingly violent and objectifying. But, I don't see many positive representations of men either, I don''t know why the one would negate the seriousness of the other.

 

I suppose we have a problem with how the media portrays human beings in general...

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My dad's cousin received custody of his *ex*-wife's kids because she was such a poor excuse for a mother. They weren't even his kids by blood! The eldest is close to my age, and I am 40. They lived in California.

I think women often receive the kids because they are usually more involved with the kids. My dh wouldn't even be able to tell you what classes my kids take on what days. I once went to a 3 day conference, he took off work so that I could. I had to make him a spreadsheet so that he would know where to be when, and he still missed a music lesson.

Edited to fix dumb phone typos.

 

 

Thank you, too. Parenting within a marriage isn't usually 50/50.

 

 

THIS is what was creepy about the Father's rights movement, I think. They didn't CARE if my husband had done more than the mother, or if we were a better couple to raise this child....my husband was a FATHER and he had RIGHTS to his child and the ex needed to get out of the way. Period. He has been a better and more involved parent than his ex, he isn't more involved (with our 3) than me. I have the feeling they would have felt that he had the same RIGHTS to our kids as he did to the one being neglected. It wasn't about a child having a father, it was about making sure the mother's weren't getting "more" rights and that men were getting "fair" time in exchange for the child support they paid. That makes me see red. No parent should be looking at what is most fair to them, before looking at what is fair to the kids. And I don't give a **** how much you pay in cs.

 

I know way too many dads who have a fit if they are asked to give up *their* weekend or rearrange visitation, but then they leave the kid with grandparents or the new wife/girlfriend so they can go out and do whatever. It is about physically having the kids x amount of time, not actually spending the time with them. The same can be said for joint legal custody. They want the opportunity to be oppositional to the ex at every turn, if you ask what their kids do in school or what health issues they have they couldn't begin to tell you..,,but, by gosh, they better get a say in everything.

 

*note that I don't think ALL men are like this. I've seen some stellar dads as well, I've seen some that far outdo the mothers. I just know a lot of men who can't tell you their kid's middle name, but they expect their sick kid to leave the mom who takes care of them and lay on their girlfriend's couch because it is, after all, DAD'S weekend.

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I just want my boys to be able to watch functional, emotionally mature, strong men who are considerate towards other human beings on television and film. I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional family, I'm tired of having dysfunction shown on television as if it is the new norm. I want to see more husbands and fathers on tv who have it together.

 

I don't know why that is so much to ask for. I feel like there are plenty of great role models in the media for girls, why not more for boys?

 

 

Try The Waltons, and Little House on the Prairie.

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THIS is what was creepy about the Father's rights movement, I think. They didn't CARE if my husband had done more than the mother, or if we were a better couple to raise this child....my husband was a FATHER and he had RIGHTS to his child and the ex needed to get out of the way. Period. He has been a better and more involved parent than his ex, he isn't more involved (with our 3) than me. I have the feeling they would have felt that he had the same RIGHTS to our kids as he did to the one being neglected. It wasn't about a child having a father, it was about making sure the mother's weren't getting "more" rights and that men were getting "fair" time in exchange for the child support they paid. That makes me see red. No parent should be looking at what is most fair to them, before looking at what is fair to the kids. And I don't give a **** how much you pay in cs.

 

I know way too many dads who have a fit if they are asked to give up *their* weekend or rearrange visitation, but then they leave the kid with grandparents or the new wife/girlfriend so they can go out and do whatever. It is about physically having the kids x amount of time, not actually spending the time with them. The same can be said for joint legal custody. They want the opportunity to be oppositional to the ex at every turn, if you ask what their kids do in school or what health issues they have they couldn't begin to tell you..,,but, by gosh, they better get a say in everything.

 

*note that I don't think ALL men are like this. I've seen some stellar dads as well, I've seen some that far outdo the mothers. I just know a lot of men who can't tell you their kid's middle name, but they expect their sick kid to leave the mom who takes care of them and lay on their girlfriend's couch because it is, after all, DAD'S weekend.

 

 

This has been my experience with custody arrangement with ex. SOOOO frustrating!

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That is interesting Alanee. Could you describe the situations he has faced?

 

 

I didn't say HE faced them...it's what he has seen happening around him.

 

This is all one man's perspective of course but when my dh talks like this, I listen. He's not one to complain much at all. He works his a$$ off 6 days a week and would never allow anything to be handed to him.

 

I asked my dh about it when he came home from work so as not to assume. His response was that he's seen it in the workplace and the court system. At work, two people apply for a job; one white male, one minority; same resumes. The minority will get the position, and not just because of Affirmative Action, but because companies fear lawsuits for choosing a white man when he's up against a minority. He also cited men in general, whatever race, having to jump through hoops in family court; alimony, division of assets, child custody, etc.

 

As a woman who is in no way supportive of Affirmative Action, nor of fanatical feminism, I have been disgusted by the increasingly negative ads, tv shows, movies, that portray men as idiots. I want all people to have equal rights and for our country to see each human being as valuable. But I don't see the types of laws we have to "prevent" it serving their (I would hope) intended purposes.

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I did not read any replies, it's late and I worked a long shift, lol. I heard of the Men's Right's Movements from a woman in my church who recently divorced a very abusive man. Her attorney did not submit any of the evidence of her ex's abuse in court. Later on she found out he is a leader in the Men's Rights Movement and sabotages divorces. Nice.

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The family law system is broken, no matter what "side" you are on, or what your experience is. It's broken for all involved - the parents and the kids. The only ones who thrive are the professionals - but I believe the karma and aura around the system takes care of that, too.

 

Men *are* portrayed as bumbling, superficial idiots in contemporary American culture. It's sad for men, women, and children.

 

That said, men (and especially white ones) can't cry " not fair" until they've emerged after millenia of being subjugated and trying to operate in systems and culture build on a model other than patriarchy. Since that will never happen, I'm not inclined to offer empathy on the plight of the "poor, downtrodden" male in our culture.

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If this is the same thing as the manosphere, then yes, I've seen some of it, most of it accidentally, and yes, I was disturbed by how hateful some of the things said were. There is also an offshoot (?) of the MRM about "pick up artists" i.e. how to bed as many women as possible... to... I guess... prove your manliness? Or because women are so "demanding" and "frigid" due to feminism that you now need a list of tricks to get them undressed.

 

I don't get it quite frankly.

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I had no idea this existed but I can say that dh has become increasingly frustrated that the tables have been turned so that white men in this country have to go to greater lengths than men of other ethnic backgrounds or women in general to prove their worth.

 

 

I asked my dh about it when he came home from work so as not to assume. His response was that he's seen it in the workplace and the court system. At work, two people apply for a job; one white male, one minority; same resumes. The minority will get the position, and not just because of Affirmative Action, but because companies fear lawsuits for choosing a white man when he's up against a minority. He also cited men in general, whatever race, having to jump through hoops in family court; alimony, division of assets, child custody, etc.

 

 

My own experience is that BECAUSE of things like quotas and affirmative action, any woman or minority receiving a position in an educational setting or the workplace is suspect. The default assumption is that the person earned the position based on minority status rather than his or her own merits.

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As the mother of 4 white males, soon to be 5, I do lament the fact that there are so few male role models in the media worth looking up to. I'm talking about family friendly sitcom type media.

 

Men are shown as goofballs sidekick types, womanizing cads who are good for a laugh, frustrated husbands and fathers who would rather watch football and drink beer than interact with their families, or somewhat smart but totally clueless Everybody Loves Raymond types who are nice enough but so emotionally immature they can't handle marriage and parenthood in a competent way and are always causing problems.

 

I just want my boys to be able to watch functional, emotionally mature, strong men who are considerate towards other human beings on television and film. I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional family, I'm tired of having dysfunction shown on television as if it is the new norm. I want to see more husbands and fathers on tv who have it together.

 

I don't know why that is so much to ask for. I feel like there are plenty of great role models in the media for girls, why not more for boys?

 

 

 

 

I suggest " The Cosby Show" unless you specifically want a white role model. I know it is an older show, but even with the jokes and silliness, Cliff Huxtable is portrayed as a loving, hard working, smart Dad that is respected.

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As a feminist, I support equal rights for men and women regardless of race or sexual orientation. I don't hate men. I do hate patriarchy because it is a system that is inherently and irrevocably unequal. I also dislike "stupid man" tropes and jokes just as I dislike the negative ways women are portrayed in media.

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The family law system is broken, no matter what "side" you are on, or what your experience is. It's broken for all involved - the parents and the kids. The only ones who thrive are the professionals - but I believe the karma and aura around the system takes care of that, too.

 

 

 

 

I so agree with this. I came out better than most in my divorce and custody but I know it could have gone much much differently had I not had the evidence I did. My poor dh on the other hand has been totally screwed with his divorce...not so much in property division because they didn't have much to divide but he sees his boys 4 days a month and there is NOTHING he can do about it.

 

The problem is the courts don't care about who is at fault and even if they did care it is next to impossible for a human to figure that out.

 

And also many parents can look fine on paper and in reality totally suck. It takes years of documenting neglect to get anyone's attention.

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IMO the real problem with divorce court is that children are not as important as parents. If judges knew that God will judge THEM for every child's life that was ruined by their ideology they would make very different decisions. Alas, they will not find out until it is too late for the children who are forced to visit/ live with unfit parents or the children that are impoverished because judges allow selfish parents to tie good people up with ever problem the selfish person can drag the good person into court for.

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I feel like there are plenty of great role models in the media for girls,?

 

really? where? I haven't seen any females (or males) I would have wanted my kids to emulate. (gadget from rescue rangers - but she was a chipmunk?) we can't watch mythbusters without my dd complaining on their lack of scientific method (hey - it's entertainment. the object is to make it blow up.). the only 'drama' we watch at all is NCIS - and I have my issues about that too.
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The media I was speaking of were family movies, films, tv and media specifically geared towards children. There are plenty of great heroines for my girls (Brave, Tangled) but I'm not seeing compelling characters for my boys. I 'suppose films like The Avengers are meant to be marketed towards young males, but I really don't care for those types of films.

 

I agree, media as a whole is wrought with horrible representations of women, often distrubingly violent and objectifying. But, I don't see many positive representations of men either, I don''t know why the one would negate the seriousness of the other.

 

I suppose we have a problem with how the media portrays human beings in general...

 

 

TV in general creates a warped view of reality. I cringe at some of the shows my kids watch (my husband is OK with it, and I don't want to fight with him). Even shows like Eureka or Warehouse 13 that show very intelligent genius level women, also show those women as stick thin beauties in plots that resemble soap operas, with lots of toying with men and sleeping around.

 

And while yes, men are often portrayed as dumb homer simpson types, especially in advertisements, there are many male genius and hero characters-- like Walter White (genius, not hero) in Breaking Bad, or Jack Bauer on 24. But all in all it's just not anything I'd want my kids to view as role models, for good or bad.

 

If I had my way we'd be TV/ film free but it's not going to happen.

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This is all one man's perspective of course but when my dh talks like this, I listen. He's not one to complain much at all. He works his a$$ off 6 days a week and would never allow anything to be handed to him.

 

I asked my dh about it when he came home from work so as not to assume. His response was that he's seen it in the workplace and the court system. At work, two people apply for a job; one white male, one minority; same resumes. The minority will get the position, and not just because of Affirmative Action, but because companies fear lawsuits for choosing a white man when he's up against a minority.

 

This is not borne out by statistics. Have you read any books on this topic?

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It's called the "Manosphere." It is ugly. I don't know of any giant network of sites where women do the same.

 

Yes, there are some legitimate grievances (custody cases). But mainly, it's a bunch of men who can't stand it that their place of dominance has ended. It's hateful.Extremely misogynist.

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I know that when my brother was applying to be a police officer, he *did* face issues specifically b/c he was a white male, and was flat out told that if he was a minority or female, the hiring process would be much faster. But, he did what he had to do, worked as a prison guard, etc, until he could finally get a place on the force.

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I know that when my brother was applying to be a police officer, he *did* face issues specifically b/c he was a white male, and was flat out told that if he was a minority or female, the hiring process would be much faster. But, he did what he had to do, worked as a prison guard, etc, until he could finally get a place on the force.

 

This is exactly dh's experience in the workplace. People talk to eachother with honesty; they don't necessarily offer up these types of details in "studies", especially men. I don't buy that this doesn't happen simply because of a few studies. And frankly, the men I know are the least of the whiners out there. I'm sad that so many here think a man today needs to take responsibility for the mistakes their grandfathers made and that there are even in this thread, people calling men names.

 

Here's another example about large companies fearing lawsuits. Dh uses a tool commonly called "dykes". Because of fear, the company has put in place new language so as not to offend anyone and be sued, so now dh has to say, "Hand me the diagonal pliers," rather than, "hand me the dykes," because someone in ear shot might be a Lesbian woman and get offended. It's absolutely ridiculous.

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But this is because police forces need minority police officers to work with those populations. If you send an Hispanic police officer into an Hispanic neighborhood, he will get more cooperation than if you send a white police officer in. Minority populations do not trust white police officers for good reasons. I am not saying that all white police officers treat minorities badly. However, there is a history of that happening.

 

Female officers are needed because there are situations where a female officer might be more appropriate. I can imagine a female rape victim being more open and honest with a female officer.

 

It isn't about quotas and discrimination against white males. It is about serving the people in the best manner possible.

 

I know that when my brother was applying to be a police officer, he *did* face issues specifically b/c he was a white male, and was flat out told that if he was a minority or female, the hiring process would be much faster. But, he did what he had to do, worked as a prison guard, etc, until he could finally get a place on the force.

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