Anyone Stalking Apologia's Blog...

[PachiSusan]

to see what their "response" about the LDS kerfluffle??? I am! LOL

[PachiSusan]

Guess they thought better of it. Today's entry:

 

http://blog.apologia.com/

[Live2Ride]

doesn't surprise me...

[Mrs Mungo]

Guess they thought better of it. Today's entry:

 

http://blog.apologia.com/

 

 

Thought better of what? Looks to me like they just re-affirmed their position that: 1. Mormons are definitely going to hell, 2. hopefully the discussion will help them rethink their position and join whatever portion of self-defining Christians Aoplogia thinks will make it to heaven and 3. should definitely keep buying Apologia products. The only new piece of information is that the questions were in response to the fact that Apologia has a course offering on why Mormons are not Christians.

[NCMom]

Thought better of what? Looks to me like they just re-affirmed their position that: 1. Mormons are definitely going to hell, 2. hopefully the discussion will help them rethink their position and join whatever portion of self-defining Christians Aoplogia thinks will make it to heaven and 3. should definitely keep buying Apologia products. The only new piece of information is that the questions were in response to the fact that Apologia has a course offering on why Mormons are not Christians.

 

You forgot 4. That they LOVE Mormons.

 

That was one of the dumbest blog posts I have ever read.

 

 

Georgia

[Forget-Me-Not]

 

 

Thought better of what? Looks to me like they just re-affirmed their position that: 1. Mormons are definitely going to hell, 2. hopefully the discussion will help them rethink their position and join whatever portion of self-defining Christians Aoplogia thinks will make it to heaven and 3. should definitely keep buying Apologia products. The only new piece of information is that the questions were in response to the fact that Apologia has a course offering on why Mormons are not Christians.

 

When Susan posted that, the new Mormon post wasn't up yet :). When I clicked that link previously, the one titled "Star Light, Star Bright" came up. It looks like there are two or three new posts since then.

[PachiSusan]

Thought better of what? Looks to me like they just re-affirmed their position that: 1. Mormons are definitely going to hell, 2. hopefully the discussion will help them rethink their position and join whatever portion of self-defining Christians Aoplogia thinks will make it to heaven and 3. should definitely keep buying Apologia products. The only new piece of information is that the questions were in response to the fact that Apologia has a course offering on why Mormons are not Christians.

 

When I posted the original post, there was nothing about Mormonism. I guess that means they put another post up - so I'll go look and see what they tried to do.

[PachiSusan]

When Susan posted that, the new Mormon post wasn't up yet :). When I clicked that link previously, the one titled "Star Light, Star Bright" came up. It looks like there are two or three new posts since then.

 

Yes this. I didn't know that they would do another post after the creation one.

[Lawana]

Interesting. They shift the discussion from defining the word "Christian" to defining the "historical" Jesus Christ.

 

In other words, if Mormons do see themselves as believing in Jesus and salvation through Jesus Christ, then it must be some "other"Jesus.

[PachiSusan]

Guess they thought better of it. Today's entry:

 

http://blog.apologia.com/

 

ETA That the correct entry about Mormonism is up now.

 

[Ameena]

One of the dumbest blog posts I ever read :) And it looks like they tried to save themselves by saying it was for a "world religions course", which of course probably didn't exist until after the flap started.

 

But instead of helping themselves, they just dug themselves in deeper. Now not only do they have the Mormons mad at them, they also have anyone else who doesn't fit their extremely narrow bigoted version of who is a Christian mad at them.

 

 

Will NEVER use their Products - EVER

[Parrothead]

I'm undecided. I don't want to give them any traffic, but I'm curious.

[dangermom]

I just saw it. Not that great, I thought. Pretty much all those things in the list about Jesus Christ are ones we LDS agree with too. Apparently the real difference is with the Trinity/Godhead issue, but they don't say so clearly. And they failed to acknowledge that virtually all the points in the previous post were not actual LDS doctrine. But comments are closed, so no discussion allowed!

[TXBeth]

I find it interesting that they apologized for the "long list of references/footnotes" being confusing/overwhelming (or something to that effect), but did not address the comments stating that many of their cited sources are in fact NOT official LDS statements and do not represent current teaching of the LDS church.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

When I posted the original post, there was nothing about Mormonism. I guess that means they put another post up - so I'll go look and see what they tried to do.

 

Ah, I see.

 

I agree, Lawana. It is interesting that their focus changed.

[TXBeth]

I actually agree with Apologia that many teachings of the LDS church are incompatible with what I believe to be core tenets of the Christian faith. If they had said "we mistakenly misrepresented the LDS church by using inaccurate sources. However, we still believe Mormon beliefs are not compatible with orthodox Christianity, and this is why..." I could have respected that. What they did instead really bothers me (and has anyone noticed that comments are turned off? Surprise, surprise)

[Lawana]

I fail to see why it is so hard to affirm that one has looked at all the available data and reached a different conclusion from someone else.

[elegantlion]

Is this the year that homeschool companies just shoot themselves in the foot? I'm sure they would see it was choosing sides, but....oh, never mind. The more divisive people become, the more humanity weeps.

[dangermom]

I fail to see why it is so hard to affirm that one has looked at all the available data and reached a different conclusion from someone else.

A couple of things, I guess. I mean, no Mormon would try to assert that Apologia should agree with LDS doctrine. Of course we disagree on what beliefs are correct. BUT Apologia has taken it upon themselves to judge who is or is not a Christian, which strikes me as prideful in the extreme. Who are they to decide? So it's not that they've "looked at all the available data and reached a different conclusion from someone else"--it's that they've then taken it a step further and presumed to judge a whole lot of people on a point that is really God's business, not theirs.

 

Then, they posted a whole lot of misinformation and failed to retract it. So, it appears that they haven't really looked at all the available data properly anyway.

 

TXBeth, Mormons would agree that many of our beliefs don't jibe with orthodox Christianity. We just don't think that makes us not Christian at all. We believe in Christ as Savior, as described in the Bible--and that's pretty much the only necessary criterion, IMO.

[unfrumpable.]

hahaha I see the comments are turned off.

[Lawana]

 

A couple of things, I guess. I mean, no Mormon would try to assert that Apologia should agree with LDS doctrine. Of course we disagree on what beliefs are correct. BUT Apologia has taken it upon themselves to judge who is or is not a Christian, which strikes me as prideful in the extreme. Who are they to decide? So it's not that they've "looked at all the available data and reached a different conclusion from someone else"--it's that they've then taken it a step further and presumed to judge a whole lot of people on a point that is really God's business, not theirs.

 

Then, they posted a whole lot of misinformation and failed to retract it. So, it appears that they haven't really looked at all the available data properly anyway.

 

 

 

TXBeth, Mormons would agree that many of our beliefs don't jibe with orthodox Christianity. We just don't think that makes us not Christian at all. We believe in Christ as Savior, as described in the Bible--and that's pretty much the only necessary criterion, IMO.

 

See, you are still addressing the question as if the definition of Christianity were up for grabs. In their latest post they concede the definition of Christianity and turn it into saying " my Jesus is not your Jesus." As if they have the corner on historical information.

[unfrumpable.]

The two links they shared at the end of the blog post appear to be fairly anti-Mormon. Am I reading the sites correctly?

[Parrothead]

Someone was kind enough to PM me the post. (Thanks)

 

The last line really said it all for me:

 

"For further study comparing the beliefs of Christianity and Mormonism, I recommend these two websites:"

 

She still has flat out decided who is a Christian and who isn't.

[PachiSusan]

The two links they shared at the end of the blog post appear to be fairly anti-Mormon. Am I reading the sites correctly?

Well, knowing how they feel, I'm quite certain they wouldn't be pro or even neutral. :(

[unfrumpable.]

Well, knowing how they feel, I'm quite certain they wouldn't be pro or even neutral. :(

 

Silly me, I thought they may direct people to a factual site either comparing the two groups or a site stating true Mormon beliefs. I guess not.

[PachiSusan]

Silly me, I thought they may direct people to a factual site either comparing the two groups or a site stating true Mormon beliefs. I guess not.

 

It doesn't look like they want good, authentic, honest discussion and dialogue. Otherwise they would have comments open and they would have done a better job researching less biased sites.

[gardenmom5]

But instead of helping themselves, they just dug themselves in deeper.

 

Will NEVER use their Products - EVER

 

when idiots are digging themsleves into a hole and just keep digging - buy popcorn. :lurk5: they're showing their true colors.

 

It's actually pretty sad that they are deliberatly marginalizing a group of potential customers into not buying their products, but it's their business loss.

[lovemykids]

Is this the year that homeschool companies just shoot themselves in the foot? I'm sure they would see it was choosing sides, but....oh, never mind. The more divisive people become, the more humanity weeps.

 

 

LOL! :smilielol5: It seems like it, huh?

 

It's really sad though, I agree.

[GWOB]

Well bless their little hearts!!! Says the Christian gal who takes God's commandments to "Love The Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself" seriously.

[Butter]

And they are *still* misrepresenting LDS beliefs. Even some that I saw were corrected in comments on the previous post (but were subsequently deleted). But, hey, Mormons oughta buy Apologia products.

[Live2Ride]

This Mormon will not continue with them....I'm still debating on sending my used books back to them with a nice note or putting them on ebay with a disclaimer wih a link to their blog for all LDS or other people who may be concerned about Apologias "we're holier than though" attitude as the reason for selling. Lol.

[Chris in VA]

Could someone who is Mormon pls post a link that DOES show the current, up-to-date beliefs of their church? Thanks so much.

[TexasRachel]

Mormon.org

 

And I'm off to get a root canal. Which for me is about as much fun as the one time we tried to use Apologia so I have no problem not sending money to Apologia.

[Mergath]

Wow. I really don't think they even see what they've done wrong. Well, I hope it was worth it for them, because it sounds like they're going to lose quite a bit of business over this. I almost wish we did order from them so I could have the pleasure of emailing them and letting them know we'll no longer require their materials.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

elegantlion is right about all the hs booksellers shooting themselves in the foot.

 

We all love ready-made curricula but we don't have to buy it. Hs'ers managed without these companies in the past, and we can do it again.

 

Apologia seems to be confused about who needs whom. When you need your customers more than they need you, it makes sense to hire a PR person if you're the type who can't express your thoughts without alienating the whole world.

[gardenmom5]

Wow. I really don't think they even see what they've done wrong. Well, I hope it was worth it for them, because it sounds like they're going to lose quite a bit of business over this. I almost wish we did order from them so I could have the pleasure of emailing them and letting them know we'll no longer require their materials.

I agree they don't see what they're doing wrong. it would be comical, if it wasn't so pathetic.

 

You could always e-mail them you had been considering a particular curriculum, but now you know how they really feel about anyone who thinks differently (I can almost guarantee, it's anyone who thinks differently. Mormons just got singled out.) you won't be buying anything from them.

[*Lulu*]

elegantlion is right about all the hs booksellers shooting themselves in the foot.

 

We all love ready-made curricula but we don't have to buy it. Hs'ers managed without these companies in the past, and we can do it again.

 

Apologia seems to be confused about who needs whom. When you need your customers more than they need you, it makes sense to hire a PR person if you're the type who can't express your thoughts without alienating the whole world.

 

 

My head is about to fall off I am nodding so vigorously!

 

Apologia has made my list of businesses I have zero use for. If they don't cure thier diarrhea of the blog soon they'll be on my "not even if hell froze over" list. Although...... they might consider that a complement since BJU is also on that one.

 

 

[Mrs Mungo]

elegantlion is right about all the hs booksellers shooting themselves in the foot.

 

We all love ready-made curricula but we don't have to buy it. Hs'ers managed without these companies in the past, and we can do it again.

 

 

Science curricula I have enjoyed (I am not a YEC, but some of these authors are):

 

Real Science 4 Kids

Mr. Q's science

Science in a Nutshell kits

Science Daybooks

Janice VanCleve's books

Holt Science-the only negative for this one is that it is set up for a classroom. You receive a disk with worksheets for below grade level, on grade level and above grade level. But, they are not marked and it is all combined by unit and it gives tons of different types of worksheets. So, you cannot just print all of the worksheets for chapter one because there are about a hundred different worksheet options for each chapter and you are not intended to assign them all. I wish that part was set up differently. I like everything else about it.

 

Eta: I would post links, but I am just posting from my phone while watching our movers load the truck. I am playing sticker police.

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't think they care who they alienate. I think they have plenty of customers who don't care, who agree with them and/or don't follow stuff like this. I know lots and lots and LOTS of homeschoolers who use all BJU or all Abeka or nothing but Apologia science.

[Veritaserum]

Could someone who is Mormon pls post a link that DOES show the current, up-to-date beliefs of their church? Thanks so much.

 

Mormon.org

And I'm off to get a root canal. Which for me is about as much fun as the one time we tried to use Apologia so I have no problem not sending money to Apologia.

 

 

Mormon.org doesn't touch the controversial issues and provides only a very basic explanation of Mormon theology. LDS.org tends to have more in depth information, but neither site provided the information I was looking for when I wanted faith-promoting explanations for topics that concerned me. (I was born and raised LDS and was an active, believing member until last year.) If you want to read explanations about the claims Apologia makes, try searching on one of these sites:

 

http://www.fairlds.org/

(Apologist site)

 

http://www.mormonthink.com/

(Site with apologists and critics)

[Spy Car]

The Apologia company has always been a purveyor of ignorance, so it looks like they are going for "consistency."

 

To spew hate, and then turn around and say "we love Mormans" (and please keep buying our stuff) is beyond contempt.

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

[HRAAB]

I have never used nor would ever use Apologia, but I absolutely hate all this divisiveness in the homeschooling community. Years ago I was hopeful that we could unite on the grounds of providing our children with an excellent education, but homeschoolers seem to be more visibly divided than ever.

[Forget-Me-Not]

See my siggy for a link to LDS.org. Also try www.mormon.org.

 

Also your friendly Mormon WTMers are always happy to answer respectful questions :D

[MamaSheep]

I'm late to the game, and have just now been skimming through the threads on this topic.

 

I have never used Apologia materials, and hadn't planned to, so this doesn't affect my purchasing decisions. I don't really care whether the publishers of any particular homeschool materials think I'm Christian or not, but I do appreciate when they make clear statements about the nature of the religious content in their materials, and their religious bent in general (because this can come through in subtle ways they don't necessarily recognize when writing) so I can make an informed decision about whether I want to use them in my home. From skimming the blog posts it sounds to me as if this is what they were trying to do, and I appreciate what I think their motives were, even if some of their facts are inaccurate and/or misleading (and they are, but this nonsense didn't originate with Apologia, it's old hat). I can certainly understand why the blog posts made people feel uncomfortable, but I hope that we will not do to them, here, what some seem to feel they did to the LDS on their blog posts. Can we step back a little and take a breath? Maybe we could give them the benefit of the doubt, or failing that, just forgive them, and move on. People say awkward things sometimes. It happens. And even if they were intentionally trying to give offense (and I don't think they were) that doesn't mean we have to take it.

 

Does it bother me when people say I don't fit their definition of Christian? Not really; they're not Christ, I don't think it's really up to them to judge that. I am sad that it causes other people distress when I refer to myself as a Christian, and to my church as a Christian church, and I do understand why some people are bothered by it. My beliefs genuinely do differ from theirs in some very important respects. But to stop calling myself a Christian would feel like a betrayal, a denial even, of Jesus Christ, the only Begotten of the Father, whom I love and worship and regard as my Savior and Redeemer--and I can't do that. I just can't. I hope we can be friends anyway.

 

Like LemonPie and others, I'm happy to take a shot at answering polite questions about my LDS beliefs, if people want to talk about that. Maybe we could start a new thread without the Apologia criticisms, just for a fresh start? If someone does, please tag me in some way so it doesn't slide past me. :) (And if you want to ask questions but don't want to have to be the one to start the thread, pm me and I'll start one. I don't want to push in where there's no interest, but I don't want to leave anyone hanging either.)

[Butter]

I think what amazes me most about what Apologia has done is that they do not wish to even consider a dialog OR any correction to their misprepresentations. They deleted comments left and right on the first post and this one doesn't even seem to allow comments. Honestly, even if it "came up" due to a conversation on Facebook, what they did went so far beyond smart business practices of responding. Shooting themselves in the foot indeed.

[MamaSheep]

I do see what you're saying. But I can also understand why a business wouldn't want to turn their blog into a free-for-all on a sensitive and controversial issue. Could it have been handled more diplomatically? Sure. People aren't perfect.

[gardenmom5]

I do see what you're saying. But I can also understand why a business wouldn't want to turn their blog into a free-for-all on a sensitive and controversial issue. Could it have been handled more diplomatically? Sure. People aren't perfect.

 

they can also state their position without citing falsehoods. they aren't interested in correcting the misrepresentations they themselves are now knowingly promulgating. (they've had them pointed out - they're sticking with them.) I would have a whole lot more respect for them if they had simply made their stand and didn't lie/misrepresent what Mormons believe.

[MamaSheep]

I would respect them more if they were better informed too. But they're not asking for my respect, they're just stating their position. And they're allowed to be wrong. They're even allowed to be stubbornly wrong. I don't think being wrong is the same thing as lying, though.

 

I don't think they're intentionally or "knowingly" spreading untruths, I think that the things they have stated are commonly accepted in their culture (in spite of being poorly researched) and they have no reason to listen to people who contradict them because those who oppose their position are commonly accepted in their culture as being dishonest or intellectually challenged and therefore not worth taking seriously. It's part of the whole schema. Disparaging their character isn't likely to change that. They could just as easily view you and me (and probably do) as "knowingly promulgating" misinformation because THEY have pointed out what they regard as OUR falsehoods, and yet WE are sticking with what WE believe, just as THEY are sticking with what THEY believe. Are you a liar just because someone says you're wrong, and you insist on believing what you believe anyway?

 

I think we can disagree without being disagreeable. We don't have to like what they say, we don't have to condone it (and I don't), but we can let them have their say, we can let them run their business as they see fit, and we can treat them the way we would like them to treat us when we say thing they don't agree with.

 

I liked the way Elder Falabella said it in the recent general conference:

One of my wife’s mottoes has been “In order to contend, you need two people, and I will never be one of them.â€

The Lord has clearly described the attributes which should guide our dealings with other people. These are persuasion, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, and love unfeigned.

When other people say we aren't Christian, whatever their reason, we should respond in ways that reflect our understanding of, and commitment to following the teachings of Jesus Christ; otherwise....well, otherwise they kind of have a point.

[WishboneDawn]

I would respect them more if they were better informed too. But they're not asking for my respect, they're just stating their position. And they're allowed to be wrong. They're even allowed to be stubbornly wrong. I don't think being wrong is the same thing as lying, though.

 

I don't think they're intentionally or "knowingly" spreading untruths, I think that the things they have stated are commonly accepted in their culture (in spite of being poorly researched) and they have no reason to listen to people who contradict them because those who oppose their position are commonly accepted in their culture as being dishonest or intellectually challenged and therefore not worth taking seriously. It's part of the whole schema. Disparaging their character isn't likely to change that. They could just as easily view you and me (and probably do) as "knowingly promulgating" misinformation because THEY have pointed out what they regard as OUR falsehoods, and yet WE are sticking with what WE believe, just as THEY are sticking with what THEY believe. Are you a liar just because someone says you're wrong, and you insist on believing what you believe anyway?

 

I think we can disagree without being disagreeable. We don't have to like what they say, we don't have to condone it (and I don't), but we can let them have their say, we can let them run their business as they see fit, and we can treat them the way we would like them to treat us when we say thing they don't agree with.

 

I liked the way Elder Falabella said it in the recent general conference:

[/size][/font][/color][/background][/size][/font][/color]

When other people say we aren't Christian, whatever their reason, we should respond in ways that reflect our understanding of, and commitment to following the teachings of Jesus Christ; otherwise....well, otherwise they kind of have a point.

 

You're giving them too much credit.

 

If they didn't want to have controversy on their blog they should not have written a post most people would label rather controversial.

 

They're views are based on ignorance. They are not informed opinions. They make their money selling educational products. We should expect them to value education and to educate themselves on issues.

 

But they're rooted in and invested in promoting a certain worldview, not in learning about the views of others. That alone would keep me from ever using any of their products.

[shinyhappypeople]

I'm not sure what the big deal is. Mormons and mainstream Christians have some overlap in our beliefs, but many, many differences. If that weren't the case, why do Mormons seek to convert people who already consider themselves Christians? It's not weird to me at all that someone coming from a traditional Christian background would view Mormon doctrine as mostly false, nor is it strange to me that my Mormon friends disagree with my theology. This isn't some stunning revelation, people.

 

I think it's a good thing that Apologia makes their beliefs clear. Choose to buy from them or not, but I don't see how throwing a hissy fit about is helpful. Should I throw a fit if a MORMON publisher stated that it thought that mainstream Christians (would they say "gentiles"?) should convert to Mormonism? Of course not. I can choose to buy from them or not, but it is the height of intolerance for me to insist that expressing an opposing viewpoint is the same as expressing hate.

 

To put it another way, do we condemn orthodox Jews who clearly state that Messianic Jews are *not* true Jews? Of course not. Orthodox Judaism encompasses specific traditions and beliefs, and it does not include Jesus. That doesn't make them hateful or bigoted. It just means that they disagree with Messianic Judaism and have specific reasons for not considering it a legitimate form of Judaism.