1dawn Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 Thank you for giving me food for thought. Your insights make me question myself more, and I appreciate all that I learn from you. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted August 19, 2013 Author Share Posted August 19, 2013 Thanks for this. Once I write something down, it all becomes clear! I do my thinking through writing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Create Your Ritual Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 I'm all ears Ruth! Loved reading it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birchbark Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Oh wow. How did I miss this thread? :001_rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted October 17, 2013 Author Share Posted October 17, 2013 Thanks for the kind words. Writing helps me clarify my own thinking. So all these long posts are so very good for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kareni Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 What a great post. Thank you! Regards, Kareni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted November 5, 2013 Author Share Posted November 5, 2013 I have been writing on another thread about how to help students build up their skills in reading nonfiction, which is somewhat different from textbooks, but these ideas seem to fit in here quite nicely as the are about developing advanced reading skills! X-post Nonfiction: IMHO, the main thing to do is check if your student is still comprehending each year as the level of difficulty increases. Continue to check on comprehension using summaries, outlines, and discussion for each subject every 6 months or so. If the comprehension is poor for the next level, then you need to work on it every week until the material can be understood. In addition, make sure that you up the level of the material every year so that by the time they hit 9th grade, they are at a 9th grade level for *both* fiction and nonfiction. And then every year after that, you up the level so that college is not a huge jump. I also think that modeling is very important. Pick a difficult essay (federalist papers or Emerson or something) and work through the ideas *with* your student. Discuss what you are thinking after every sentence and then after every paragraph. Model *how* good readers connect ideas, refer back to early paragraphs, predict what is coming up, etc. Sometimes students assume that good readers read linearly through the argument and that is just not true. You need to model. Then have your students talk you through their own thought processes as they read a difficult passage. Finally, I do think that you need to teach some way for the student to categorize arguments. The common topics: definition, cause/effect, circumstance, testimony, comparison; or formal logic; or both! And after this material is learned, you need to *apply* it to ever increasingly difficult nonfiction. You do this through a 3 step process: 1) describing what *you* see - modeling, 2) having them describe what they see while you listen and comment, and 3) then each independently processing the arguments and comparing thoughts after 30 minutes. For many students, step by step is the key! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polgara Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 This thread is epic and was exactly what I was looking for. Thank you Ruth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Bumping this since it is such an informative thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedarling Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 This entire thread has been extremely beneficial to me in helping my 13yo daughter. I was at my wits end with what to do after switching curriculum and her still not being able to read non-fiction science and social studies with understanding. I sat with her and demonstrated notetaking paragraph by paragraph....first she was interested in how I knew what to take notes on, so we talked about that. Also, she began asking questions and interacting with the text! Now, I had tried "reading together" in the previous curriculum, but it didn't help. And...the material was admittedly hard even for me. But reading and discussing was just causing her to tune out and get frustrated. However, notetaking together helped so much more, and we're both excited that she'll also be learning the valuable skill of notetaking! Somehow just by changing the focus to extracting the important information made a world of difference! I need to read and re-read this thread often! There's a gold mine in here! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluedarling Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 dp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver0f10 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 This thread should be stickied at the top of the page. Thank you so much, Ruth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertflower Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 This is such a great post. Thank you Ruth for posting it on another thread! :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriedClams Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Excellent stuff here!!!! Thank you!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlessedMom Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Simply wonderful and extremely helpful information!! Thank you so much for sharing all your thoughts and wisdom here!! You have given me so much invaluable food for though!! Bless You!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathie in VA Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 Great ideas. Thank you for posting all your thoughts. :) I gather during the timeframe you teach this you suspend or postpone answering the typical weekly assignments? I like how this teaches to learn what is in the textbook. However time becomes my stumbling block when I try to have dc follow such a path to learn from the text when they still have all their work to get done. Now for classes I do at home I can alter assignments to fit but for outside classes we gave up that option. Especially with something like TOG (or maybe Omnibus, MFW, etc) there are charts to fill out and questions to answer ....all to help the student analyze the information and prepare for discussions. Any suggestions for balancing this? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted September 16, 2014 Author Share Posted September 16, 2014 Great ideas. Thank you for posting all your thoughts. :) I gather during the timeframe you teach this you suspend or postpone answering the typical weekly assignments? I like how this teaches to learn what is in the textbook. However time becomes my stumbling block when I try to have dc follow such a path to learn from the text when they still have all their work to get done. Now for classes I do at home I can alter assignments to fit but for outside classes we gave up that option. Especially with something like TOG (or maybe Omnibus, MFW, etc) there are charts to fill out and questions to answer ....all to help the student analyze the information and prepare for discussions. Any suggestions for balancing this? I don't actually give 'weekly assignments' until high school, and I teach advanced reading skills mostly in upper elementary and middle school, so for my homeschool there is not a conflict. Given your situation, I would suggest that you teach reading skills in the classes you do at home, and then help your children understand how filling in charts or answering questions for outside classes actually helps them to understand the content rather than just being busy work. Answering high-level, well-constructed, short-answer questions is actually very difficult, and you could spend some time helping your students do this well. I find that modelling is very important, so I often 1) model answering the questions by talking out loud about my thought processes before writing down the answer, 2) work *with* my student to understand the question and then come up with an appropriate, complete, but brief answer, and 3) have my student answer the question independently but with a running commentary of his thought processes while I sit and listen. Some kids just get it, others don't. In my experience with my own students and with my tutoree kids, I can tell who is who. Not sure I have answered your questions. Happy to try again if I missed the mark. Ruth in NZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kidlit Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Thank you, Ruth. This is giving me much to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathie in VA Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I don't actually give 'weekly assignments' until high school, and I teach advanced reading skills mostly in upper elementary and middle school, so for my homeschool there is not a conflict. Given your situation, I would suggest that you teach reading skills in the classes you do at home, and then help your children understand how filling in charts or answering questions for outside classes actually helps them to understand the content rather than just being busy work. Answering high-level, well-constructed, short-answer questions is actually very difficult, and you could spend some time helping your students do this well. I find that modelling is very important, so I often 1) model answering the questions by talking out loud about my thought processes before writing down the answer, 2) work *with* my student to understand the question and then come up with an appropriate, complete, but brief answer, and 3) have my student answer the question independently but with a running commentary of his thought processes while I sit and listen. Some kids just get it, others don't. In my experience with my own students and with my tutoree kids, I can tell who is who. Not sure I have answered your questions. Happy to try again if I missed the mark. Ruth in NZ oops, realized that I posted after only reading the 2nd page! So now I finally read page 1 and 2.... This all makes sooo much sense. I really wonder why there are so many curricula out there that don't step the students through some process of note taking, that is to learn any of the content subjects (science, history, literature, ...) I know there are plenty of sites and books specifically on taking notes; but most of the options for these content subjects used here lean towards having the students read and answer questions or read and narrate or summarize. The only other place I've read a similar method is the WTM book. I tried those ideas with my older two dc but it just wasn't a good fit for dd (not much was though). Anyway... I'm currently focusing on ds (9th grade) and dd (4th grade) with other dd getting up to preK level. This is timely for dd (4th grader) but right now I am still working on getting her to read more comfortably. So I'm reading aloud with her, taking turns, with Magicians Nephew and we are going to review phonics with our spelling... I switched her to How to Teach Spelling 2. If I can get our computers working she can also do Reading Detective, but for now this waits. I may try to incorporate your ideas when we start Noeo Science Chemistry... I'll have to recheck to see if this will work. My first focus will be to get her to like to read. ug. both girls dislike reading, both boys love it... Its a bit late for my 9th grader to start these lessons but then again he is bright and is doing fine so far. However I still might go over the process with him to see what he says. He really doesn't have the time to do all this in addition to the workload he already has at this point. He is able to find the answers on his own, usually... sometimes needs some help with the 'inference' type questions or the deeper thinking ones. I wonder if a quick outline of the reading will help him to find the answers he needs faster?... I do see that he doesn't seem to know how to study after the work has been done. Need to work on that as well. One question though, after taking your kids through these lessons on 'reading to learn' and they move into high school level work, do you still have them follow this process in addition to the typical high school level workload of read, answer questions, charts, maps, learn vocab, maybe write a paper, etc.? Or at this point do you have them move away from some of the steps? Thanks again for all that you share! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 Let me first say that the goal IMHO is to be able to hand your child a textbook with a syllabus (that contains assignments and test dates) and have your child be able to memorize, synthesize, and analyze the material and do well. This is a straight forward college prep skill that should be learned in highschool. If your child is already there, then the job is done. Some kids just get it; many don't. Assignments (like your referenced charts, maps, vocab, papers) are supposed to help a student memorize, synthesize, and analyze; and if they don't, then they are poorly designed assignments. However, assignments alone don't typically do the job; the student still needs to put forth personal effort to make the material her own and to do well on a final exam. That is where this thread comes in. It is not *extra* work. If a student cannot memorize, synthesize, and analyze the content for any subject she has an interest in learning, then she probably needs direct teaching in advanced reading and studying skills. This direct teaching is done *during* a class that a student is taking. It is a way of explicitly exploring different methods with a student, allowing her to try each out and pick one or more that works best for her. If a student can't actually do well on a test because she can't use a textbook to learn the material, then teaching her effective techniques is simply teaching her transferable skills. It does take time, but if a student can't do it on her own, I just can't quite figure out what the other option is. I guess just mediocre test scores? Once a kid is confident of his ability to handle any textbook and associated syllabus, then the job is done and no more handholding is needed. Does that answer your question? Ruth in NZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathie in VA Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Yes. Lol this makes sense. Every once in a while I run into great things I want to specifically teach my kids but then realize that they don't need it cause somehow that already got through. Reading skills as you highlighted are one...formal logic for this ds was another. Now to get my next one reading more. Thanks again for posting, helping, and basically just caring for all of us!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowergirl159 Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 I know this a really old thread, but just wondering if my fifth grader reading an apologia book, Zoology 3 on her own, is having her on the right track? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SereneHome Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Wow!!!!!!!!!! So so glad this thread was "bumped" Thank you so so so much Ruth for sharing your knowledge and experience. Thank you!!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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