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Reviews for High Noon and Rewards please


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I'm considering using one of these with my ds12. I believe he is dyslexic, although he was never diagnosed. He is probably ready at a 4th to 5th grade reading level. I was thinking High Noon level 1 might be a good place to start. He does pretty well reading one syllable words but sometimes he surprises and asks me what a simple word is. For example, in a word problem today was the word 'meal', he didn't know what this word was or how to sound it out. So I think before tackling multi-syllable words, I need to make sure we fill in some gaps.

 

I would really appreciate some reviews for both of these progrmas. Thanks!

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http://www.abcdrp.co...DAssessment.pdf I am linking this just b/c I am familiar with it. It has nonsense words ---- can your son sound out the easiest nonsense words?

 

If he is just not sure of "ea" -- what sounds to try for "ea," or he is trying to make "ea" have a sound to rhyme with "great" and not getting a word.... then that is something he can work on. I think Rewards might be a little advanced right now, it is for kids who are solid on one-syllable words (from what I have read).

 

If he is having trouble knowing to start with "m" and read through the word and sound it out, then maybe he can't sound out words with the easiest phonics (this was my son, it is okay).

 

If he just has trouble being really solid on what sounds "ea" can make and trying them in a word, to see which sound makes a word, then that is okay too -- he can learn that.

 

I have not used High Noon b/c I picked Abecedarian, but looking at samples it looks like it teaches this.

 

I only know about my son, and those are the two reasons he would have to not be able to sound out "meal," they are things he has learned now -- it is hard work but he can do it now.

 

I have also had AAS and if you look at (iirc) Step 5 they have a procedure for pulling down letter tiles to segment a word, then blend the letters. Can your son do this? That part of AAS was really helpful for my son even though we quit it b/c it got too hard.

 

I also wonder what you did when he sat there and said he had no idea how to approach the word "meal." Awkward!!!! I really like the error correction method where you just model how to sound out a word. I point and say "mmm eee ll." etc. There is an error correction video for Abecedarian I like... and I have benefited from it b/c I keep from doing too much oral prompting (which is very distracting to my son and makes it harder for him) and has kept from seeming to antagonize him.

 

He has obviously got a lot of reading knowledge to be reading at a high level like he is, but if he has got some gaps then I think it is good to fill them in, and start low so he can work through things getting a lot right and build up his confidence!

 

I haven't used High Noon but there is someone on this board who used it with her son and had good results, and I know someone who has used it working with kids at school, and she likes it, too. I have just looked at the samples and table of contents.

 

edit: just about my son and AAS... he basically cannot learn phonograms from a flashcard, and he basically can't learn more than one sound for a phonogram at thesame time..... he needs major practice with phonograms, he needs to learn one sound at a time, he needs lots of practice in just picking between two possible sounds for a phonogram in a word..... it is okay.

 

I have not used a chart like this, but if you don't want to tell him the sound for "ea," you can have a chart for him with sample words for the phonograms, have him find the sample words with "ea," and then have him see which sound he wants to use. If he already knows a lot of sample words that might be something he could do more independently.

 

You can also have him underline "ea" as it is found in words on a page, and then have him sort the "ea" words according to their sound. That would be if he does already have some knowledge about "ea," it would be hard as the first thing to do. I like it for additional practice/review, though. My son liked it b/c he didn't have to write to do it, just underline, so he thought it was easier.

 

Sorry I do not really know this about High Noon -- but it looks like it is good and I have heard it is good.... so I have a good impression. It was one of my top choices, though.

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Added various comments interspersed, and a paragraph at end

 

We used High Noon: both the Sound Out Chapter Books and the Reading Intervention program. It was what worked for us. Thus I give it my highest praise and thanks! Since reading was foundational to most everything else, HN was a very important component in our homeschool.

 

Our situation was different, as my ds was a 9-year-old non-reader other than a very few words at the point we began HN, but I also think it would have worked if I had found what you report and needed to go back and review basics even when he seemed to be at 4th-5th grade reading level. I chose what seemed suitable at the time, were I dealing with a child at a higher level I might choose differently as they have a wide range available for your son's age, there are chapter books all the way from ones that emphasize simple CVC words to ones that give simplified versions of the classics and easy to read biographies, for example--for us the former were helpful, and ds can now read classics and biographies as written rather than simplified.

 

The HN program is excellent for a problem like reading "meal" because it gives instruction and practice first in the standard most common sounds that letters and their combos make--helping lead to automatic reading of the common patterns ("meal" would be the standard, most common way to say each sound in the word). The Intervention program starts with all the letters and their common sounds, then works towards blends, digraphs, vowel teams and so on, and as quickly as possible puts these into real reading passages, as well as individual word in isolation practices--both are helpful. It then goes to less common patterns, rather than lumping together the more and less common. And so also gives a chance for less common patterns to become automatic--and with a likelihood that the child will try sounding out an unfamiliar word in order of likelihood. It is also particularly used with older children and even adults, making it more suitable to a 12 year old than some other programs might be.

 

HN does not give rules to memorize nor memorizing phonograms and all the possible sounds a letter or combo of letters can make, but rather works from patterns and reading passages and individual word reading practice sessions, with daily new material and review of old--the review of old mixes up the patterns rather than giving only a single one like the new material does. Thus, I think it is very different than some other programs which have children memorize all the possible sounds separate from words. That method would have driven my ds (and me too probably) nuts. That is the sort of thing Lecka is writing about with AAS, and my ds like Lecka's needed one sound at a time (which High Noon does give). HN is also a program that seems possible to move through fairly quickly if you are committed to doing so. It does take work though. Time for reading aloud daily, timing readings to increase fluency, seemed especially important. These were part of the Intervention system, with passages having the word count at end of lines so you do not have to count every word yourself, and so on. You might need a different part of it more or less than we did, however.

 

My ds went from High Noon (and in fact we never even needed the 2nd level of the Reading Intervention, nor the upper levels of the Sound Out Chapter Books) to a brief time where it seemed like multi-syllabic words would be a problem, at which point I considered Rewards, but actually got a book from High Noon/Academic Therapy Pub instead that went into multi-syllabic words. However, before we began deliberate work on multi-syllabic reading, ds launched into happily reading (I think I posted in distress that I then could not get him to stop reading and do anything else) long books and seemed to get over the multi-syllable hurdle, via just trying to read what he wanted to read, and my helping him understand common multi-syllable patterns, such as how the accent and vowel sounds change from the root when extra syllables are present.

 

He is currently 11 and can easily read things like Harry Potter--his hardest reading is adult reading level Star Wars novels (as it turns out this is great practice on nonsense words with the made up names for people and places), and the adult version of A People's History of the United States by Zinn--his own choice for American History. He sometimes struggles with long words, but read some of the Zinn aloud to me recently, and I was surprised how fluently he could read that. In fact, though he had a few pronunciation glitches, he basically could read it as fast and almost with as much understanding as I could. The few glitches after High Noon single syllable learning are things like "Southern," with the first syllable pronounced as the regular direction South as it is for the other 3 directions and then adding on ern, rather than changing the Sow sound to a Suh sound, or saying colonel the way it looks in print with an L sound and 3 syllables-- I am not sure if Rewards would have solved that sort of thing.

 

Word problems tend to be harder for dyslexics than other types of reading, I think, because they don't have an extensive context to help them with a word. We have done some extra work on just word problem reading for that reason.

 

Just so as to be clear we did Not like an older (1950's?) phonics program by Someone Kirk sold by the High Noon company--what worked for us was High Noon's own reading intervention program.

 

I did have some of Sopris's Language! (same publisher as Rewards) which was recommended highly by Sally Shaywitz, but, for us, High Noon (recommended by a special needs teacher particularly given that my ds had high interests along with his low level--and HN was her favorite for that situation) worked for him to read and allowed him to move on quickly to more interesting materials than Language! gives. OTOH, Language! does seem well done, so probably Rewards would be also. I think EKS used Rewards and you can find past comments on it if you search, or maybe EKS will post here. Language! was much more colorful than High Noon. For my ds it was actually good that HN was fairly plain because a busy page like Language! had was distracting. Also the more bare page of HN meant he could not use pictures as a context prompt as could be done to some degree with Language! Maybe this would be a way to say that HN is not as visually appealing as Language! (and maybe Rewards?)--but it sure did get the job done effectively in a fairly short time!

 

Also, to be clear, while HN is the key thing that opened reading for my ds, it was not in a vacuum. At first when I saw it was actually working after so many things had not, I tried to do just HN and nothing else while we were on it, but then I opened up to anything and everything that might give reading practice, and not make things too dull while getting plenty of reading. My ds read over the phone to an aunt and grandma which gave him extra practice. I extended his bedtime for extra practice time, and so on.

 

I no longer recall what it was exactly, but for error prompting on HN, instructions gave a length of time to let the child try to work it out before helping--possibly 2 seconds??? And I think it differed if the circumstances were in a timed reading versus when first coming to a new word in practice sessions.

 

ETA: I had the full set for the HN Reading Intervention, which gives what the student is reading in the Teacher part--I did not use all the teacher parts as scripted, but just having the student text there was helpful. It also might have been helpful to have a second set of the Sound Out Chapter books we were using so as to be able to make sure that ds was not substituting a wrong, but apt, seeming word in places. When we got to the first of his regular reading I did sometimes have a copy for him and a copy for me so that I could make sure he was reading what the book said. He is (like many dyslexics) good, I think, at substituting reasonable seeming words that are not actually what the text says. For reading practice I wanted to make sure he could actually read what it said. This would still probably be helpful, but at the amount he now reads is beyond what I can do. OTOH, for word problems, we have worked on the understanding that sometimes the exact word does not matter, that it is okay to read it as "Someone" in place of a name that one cannot figure out instead of wasting time on the name, for example. But also trying to see where knowing the exact word will matter.

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...

If he just has trouble being really solid on what sounds "ea" can make and trying them in a word, to see which sound makes a word, then that is okay too -- he can learn that.

 

I have not used High Noon b/c I picked Abecedarian, but looking at samples it looks like it teaches this.

 

...

edit: just about my son and AAS... he basically cannot learn phonograms from a flashcard, and he basically can't learn more than one sound for a phonogram at thesame time..... he needs major practice with phonograms, he needs to learn one sound at a time, he needs lots of practice in just picking between two possible sounds for a phonogram in a word..... it is okay.

 

I have not used a chart like this, but if you don't want to tell him the sound for "ea," you can have a chart for him with sample words for the phonograms, have him find the sample words with "ea," and then have him see which sound he wants to use. If he already knows a lot of sample words that might be something he could do more independently.

 

...

 

 

I had wanted to re-edit my post yesterday, but then found the site down. So, I'll add/correct what I was going to put then, and also comment on the above from perspective of having actually used High Noon (HN) successfully--they are same topic.

 

I was writing about how HN introduces, as example, long O--as compared to other common programs such as, to the best of my understanding, Abecedarian,( and I think also Barton, and AAS, Spalding etc. basically do it) ... . That either got lost in the system down, or is lost in my long post. I think it is a big difference between HN and other programs -- at least as important as that HN is particularly geared for older children with lots of materials for the 9years and up range and hi interest/low level readers.

 

HN not only does not give phonogram flashcards to memorize, it also does not present either on one hand, a sound and all the ways to make that (as I understand Abecedarian and most of the others do), nor on the other, a letter or letter combo and all the sounds that can make. I did not use Abecedarian, but its website and many others indicated that they did pretty much what Lecka is describing--so that for example, long O would be introduced with all the ways that sound can be made, and then exercises to sort and group words with that sound. Like what I think Lecka is describing you could maybe do yourself from a page of writing.

 

HN, very differently, introduces patterns for letters to sound usually one at a time, especially at the beginning (sometimes more if there are few examples of a pattern and as the program gets to its later parts). First it gives all the regular short vowels before any long ones. Each with practice within the Reading Intervention Program--and yet more practice if one also gets their chapter books. For long O, it is first met at lesson 7 as part of the CV pattern--words like "no" and "go" (and also "hi" and "be" because in this case there are relatively few CV with long vowel words--though it later becomes important to 2 syllable reading like in "become," "because," "before," "notation," "nowhere," and so on). That pattern gets practiced as the next pattern CVCe starts to be introduced with long A words, like "cake", "name", etc. The CVCe pattern with long O comes at lesson 11. The long O vowel pair OA at lesson 16. Not till lesson 47 do you get the variant long O vowel pair OW as in "grow"--and at lesson 48 the distinction of this as a diphthong in words like "now".

 

The HN method means that the patterns are learned by common use in both reading passages and word lists, by repetition to help gain automaticity. There is a workbook that also comes with a full set, and that has some exercises which will sometimes include a word sort, or dictation, but it is a very different emphasis--and also very very different as to timing, and method of learning.

 

To use"meal" as an example, the m and l are in lessons 1 and 2 along with short vowels a (lesson 1) and i (lesson 2). The regular vowel pair EA with long E pronunciation is at Lesson 13 (along with EE), and these would be being practiced right along and cemented as the automatic usual way. Not until lesson 52 do you get the variant "r" controlled patterns (such as "hear," "learn," "bear" or "heart". Not until lesson 62 do you get the even less common variant patterns of EA as in "steak" or "head". So my ds would see a word like meal, and would not have to think through is that EA going to sound like EE or like AY or like EH.

 

The program (especially as we did it with the chapter books also) gave the lots of practice in picking the right sound for the letter combination--not as puzzling over it and figuring it out, but as practice much like drills in a sport would be practiced, in a way that worked for him to have it be automatic now. The sport analogy was in fact something that I used with ds to help him to understand what we were doing--practicing parts of reading as he might practice parts of basketball, so that then they would come together automatically.

 

I hope that is clear enough to understand, and I hope it helps.

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What I have used of Abecedaian (level B) introduces one sound at a time, but it does not stay with just one sound for a long time. Like, they start with one sound for ea, and then about 5 lessons later do add the 2nd sound and give a lot of practice with the 2 sounds.

 

It is a lot more gradual than AAS I think, but it does get to the multiple sounds.

 

But it sounds like Abcd moves faster that way than HN from that description.

 

I used it with my son in 1st-2nd grade and I liked it for his age. I wouldn't use a book intended for 3rd grade and up with a younger child, the same I wouldn't use a book for kids aged 4-6 with an older child. The level I used of Abcd seemed to be written for younger kids but for struggling younger kids.

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Thanks ladies for all the information. I haven't replied yet because I've digesting everything you've said. You have been very helpful! We tried Abcd a few years ago (level B) and it just didn't have enough review for my dc. I like how HN gives more practice, and doesn't introduce too much at once. We were using Logic of English and it was just too much. My ds was great at memorizing the phonograms but couldn't apply them to his reading or spelling. The rules completely confused him and therefor were no use. I think HN might just be what he needs. I've decided to use Apple and Pears for spelling. We started at the first level. Right now he hates it and thinks it's too easy, but I'm trying to fill in some gaps. I told him soon it will get harder.

 

I haven't order it yet, but noticed when I went through the checkout process that it said to allow 2-4 weeks for shipping and that a 10% handling charge would be added, but it didn't say how much shipping was. So if you bought it straight from the publishers was the S&H extremly expensive and did shipping take that long? I was also wondering which level of chapter book we would get? How do they line up with the lessons?

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Thanks ladies for all the information. I haven't replied yet because I've digesting everything you've said. You have been very helpful! We tried Abcd a few years ago (level B) and it just didn't have enough review for my dc. I like how HN gives more practice, and doesn't introduce too much at once. We were using Logic of English and it was just too much. My ds was great at memorizing the phonograms but couldn't apply them to his reading or spelling. The rules completely confused him and therefor were no use. I think HN might just be what he needs. I've decided to use Apple and Pears for spelling. We started at the first level. Right now he hates it and thinks it's too easy, but I'm trying to fill in some gaps. I told him soon it will get harder.

 

I haven't order it yet, but noticed when I went through the checkout process that it said to allow 2-4 weeks for shipping and that a 10% handling charge would be added, but it didn't say how much shipping was. So if you bought it straight from the publishers was the S&H extremly expensive and did shipping take that long? I was also wondering which level of chapter book we would get? How do they line up with the lessons?

 

If you talk to them on the phone, you can get more information on the shipping. I live one state away from them, and the shipping was reasonably fast and as I recall not expensive. I think it is free shipping, if you accept (slow) parcel post on any size order. Or free for over $200 order via UPS. Or extra if you want UPS on an under $200 order, or are overseas. Ask them, but I think there's No handling charge for orders paid by credit card when the order is placed, or with a check mailed in. The handling charge is for institutional orders who are billed later. I think I split my order into 2 parts, 1of the first things i needed to come right away with the extra charge for small UPS order, and the rest to arrive later via free parcel post.

 

 

Which level of chapter book you should get: If, as it sounds, you want lots of practice with one syllable words like "meal," then chapter books that line right up with the Reading Intervention Program, beginning with short and long vowel sounds that would include patterns like "meal", are the lowest level of the Sound Out Chapter Books, which is A, and you can decide which set. There are 3 A sets and each has 6 books, 3 that have only short vowel patterns (plus some sight words to allow a story to be told) and 3 that have long vowel sound patterns. We did them all, 3 times through each one, but not 3 times on same one immediately because my son tends to get things memorized--and what we did definitely did achieve fluency and automaticity. I think though it might be better to just get one set to start, and then if yet more practice is needed get another set. They are supposed to be the same level of difficulty, but I think A-3 was slightly harder than A-1). In theory the Sound Out Chapter books at the first level start with what is covered by lesson 10 of the Reading Intervention Program. My son started in to his first A-1 Sound Out Chapter book the moment it arrived because he was eager to get going on a real book. Since for yours this is review, you can likely do the same--or wait for where it is supposed to fit in the program, either way.

 

(They also have chapter books that go up to around 4-5th grade reading levels/lexiles, but with content suitable to teens and adults. But that would not give the very sequential work on each pattern that is what I think you want.)

 

So, a sensible first order might be, say, HN Reading Level 1 Teacher's Guide, Student Book (maybe workbook too?), one set of Sound Out chapter books, either A-1 or A-2, ( maybe workbook that goes with that set too? maybe a second set to make it easier to follow along as he reads aloud?) Also ask for a paper catalog--I think it makes it easier to understand to be able to flip through the pages in addition to what there is online. I did not make a "sensible" first order. I got one of all 3 sets at each of the levels of chapter book and even a few up beyond that. And some other things not all of which I ended up needing or using, which is why I am suggesting a more gradual beginning. If you already know from experience though that your kids need a lot more review, then you could get more to start, especially, I suppose if it gets you over some minimum for free shipping.

 

HN has its own spelling program also, which I did not use. I still may end up doing so. I just noticed that as I was looking at my catalog to write this and thinking maybe trying other spelling (even if they seem short term cheaper) is silly waste of time and money for us, just as the other approaches to reading did not work for us.

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PS I just noticed the ages of some of your youngers, and thought I'd add that when we got HN, I thought this is how nearly everyone would learn reading the easiest, even if not dyslexic.

 

I was thinking maybe the A-2 set to start from pov of a 12 year old. The A-1 set has 3 stories that feature animals and may suit the youngers coming up better than the A-2 set, and yet still be fine for ds 12. (A-2 has all the stories featuring big kids or teens, and especially one with a boy running a race and and persevering despite set-backs there that I especially liked for its theme that was also applicable to hanging in there with the reading.) My ds though, as I said, read them all, and had favorites in each set, that were not necessarily what I expected, like some where the protagonists were already of driving age, and one with a bicycle race, and again, the hang in there theme, in the A-3 set.

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My son had trouble with learning/memorizing the phonograms more than applying them, at the time we used Abecedarian. I can see how that would make a difference.

 

 

HN did not have the explicit learning/memorizing of phonograms as such that many other programs seem to stress. I think my son would have had trouble with that or with a program that started with nonsense words.

 

For OP, the reason I mentioned the possibility of a second set of identical chapter books is that my son, who had not even gotten to the level of yours, was able to substitute seeming reasonable words if I did not look and see what it actually said. For example, this is made up, but to give the idea of the problem: "Tim set the rocks in the pile." vs. "Tom put the rocks in the pail." I don't recall the exact way it went, but something like that in The Red Gem Mine -- without my seeing what the name was or whether it was a pile or a pail, the whole book could be read wrong and yet make sense--but I think that is sort of what happens for "stealth dyslexia." Your ds may already do that a lot unbeknownst to you, so your being able to watch each word is a way to make sure that at least for reading work time the exact words are being read.

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Would I really need the workbook or is it just for extra practice? I had my son read through the passages to see where he would place in the chapter books and he was able to read all of them. He only stumbled on scientist in the last passage. This places him in the Streamlined Shakespeare and Perspectives Series. He's farther along in his reading ability than I thought. I think I'm still going to start in Level 1 for the reading intervention. After looking at the table of contents there are some things I know he doesn't know. I think we will probably be able to get through level 1 pretty quickly. I was wondering if I even need to get him chapter books for level 1 since he knows more than I thought. I think most of it will just be review. I thought we could just go through it and I'd have him read aloud to me from library books. I'm trying not to spend more money than I really need to. Money's a little tight right now, so if it isn't really needed than I'd rather not buy it.

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Would I really need the workbook or is it just for extra practice? I had my son read through the passages to see where he would place in the chapter books and he was able to read all of them. He only stumbled on scientist in the last passage. This places him in the Streamlined Shakespeare and Perspectives Series. He's farther along in his reading ability than I thought. I think I'm still going to start in Level 1 for the reading intervention. After looking at the table of contents there are some things I know he doesn't know. I think we will probably be able to get through level 1 pretty quickly. I was wondering if I even need to get him chapter books for level 1 since he knows more than I thought. I think most of it will just be review. I thought we could just go through it and I'd have him read aloud to me from library books. I'm trying not to spend more money than I really need to. Money's a little tight right now, so if it isn't really needed than I'd rather not buy it.

 

In that case, I personally would not suggest getting any of that. A rule of thumb I was given that helped is to work at a level where around 3-8 words per page are difficult. In your position if he got all words but "scientist" I'd go direct to the read aloud from library books or purchased regular books, having one copy for you and one for him so that you know what needs help and work where help is actually needed at this point.

 

The only issue might be if what was revealed by "meals" in the word problem, means that he can read if there is plenty of context, but not if there is not. You could look at some more word problems to see if that seemed a fluke, and at this point maybe also go to a nonsense words list and see how he does with that to try to help figure out whether he needs more basic review or not. If it is the case and he really does need one syllable review (which it now does Not sound to me that he does), I'd consider getting just two student Intervention books, not even the more expensive teacher book (unless you want to have the system for the younger students coming along), one for him to read from and one for you to be able to know that he is reading it correctly. The teacher guide has extra practice (and dictations and so forth), but it is not at the moment sounding like that is needed.

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In that case, I personally would not suggest getting any of that. A rule of thumb I was given that helped is to work at a level where around 3-8 words per page are difficult. In your position if he got all words but "scientist" I'd go direct to the read aloud from library books or purchased regular books, having one copy for you and one for him so that you know what needs help and work where help is actually needed at this point.

 

The only issue might be if what was revealed by "meals" in the word problem, means that he can read if there is plenty of context, but not if there is not. You could look at some more word problems to see if that seemed a fluke, and at this point maybe also go to a nonsense words list and see how he does with that to try to help figure out whether he needs more basic review or not. If it is the case and he really does need one syllable review (which it now does Not sound to me that he does), I'd consider getting just two student Intervention books, not even the more expensive teacher book (unless you want to have the system for the younger students coming along), one for him to read from and one for you to be able to know that he is reading it correctly. The teacher guide has extra practice (and dictations and so forth), but it is not at the moment sounding like that is needed.

 

 

I'll have to go through some other word problems to see if he stumbles. He usually has trouble with directions as well.

 

So you are saying we wouldn't need the teacher guide for level 1? Just the student book? There is only one for level 1.

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B/c my son had a long phase of being a reluctant listener (not just a reluctant reader, he would say he didn't even like being read to) I have not done companion readers, either. I think if you sit with him while he reads aloud, you can work with any book. We started with me reading many words and just pointing at words for him to read. Now we can have conversations about how much he wants to be helped and corrected. Now I don't correct every tiny thing (and he is able to go back and self-correct if something doesn't make sense). Also now he wants to ask for help with a word, vs. having me help him automatcally after some time has passed. If he is stumbling in a multi-syllable word, I give him the first syllable and then he is good.

 

But if you can pick books interesting to him, that is really helpful here.

 

For fluency, for reading alone they do need to be easy. Right now this is pre-school picture books for my son -- fine, he has a little brother and sister, we have those books around and he can choose them for reading time.

 

Then there is a continuum where he might be really fluent at easier books, at instructional level with a little harder books that he can read with help, and then books that are too hard. His fluency does lag behind where he is in decoding (like -- he does not automatically become fluent in the level he is at in Abecedarian, he needs a lot of practice).

 

I address fluency separately from decoding. Decoding is being able to sound out words correctly. Fluency is being able to read in context.

 

I have read about fluency and things to do to help. Overall a lot of practice, reading things that are not difficult, reading things that are a little difficult with help. I struggle with how much to require reading out loud vs. silently. Right now I only require short (like, less than 2 minutes at a time for him, if we are taking turns) periods of reading out loud for him, if it is a book we are looking at together. Reading out loud makes things much more challenging for him. But I still want him to do it, b/c I know he skims over some words when he is reading silently, and he needs to know what those words are. Sometimes while it is my turn to read, I have him read just a word or sentence that I think will be difficult so I can help him practice sounding it out.

 

From my experience, the most important things are being patient (day by day, and also with time to build up fluency) and follow his lead on what is going to work for him so that he will cooperate.

 

Right now I set a timer for 10 minutes and he can read silently if he looks like he is reading, and I switch that to out loud and pausing the timer when he is not reading out loud if he hassles me. I am strict on this b/c if I am not he will make endless excuses. Reading silently is very desirable to him so it works pretty well. I let him re-read a set of comic books (Tiny Titans) as often as he wants. Then at bedtime I have him read out loud a paragraph or page here and there in the book I am reading to him. He goes to public school and I think he reads a little there, but I think it is okay for afterschooling at this point. I will have lot higher requirement in the summer, and he can meet it or delay going to the pool. I will not take away swimming but I will reduce the time we spend there to include meeting friends at the pool.

 

I would love to be less strict (this is strict for me lol) but he will spend ages trying to avoid beginning his reading time etc. if I am not. Or I can let it be on him to tell me to start the timer, but the consequence is on him if he delays forever.

 

I don't think it is doing too much to make him motivated to read, but he loves the series I am reading to him at bedtime right now (Animorphs) despite not liking to read. They are above his reading level though he can take some turns. I feel like -- even if he prefers listening to audiobooks later in life, he still needs to practice. And maybe he will like reading more as his reading level and interest level get closer together (which I have read is 8th grade for children with no difficulty in reading!). But I do not worry too much about "killing his enjoyment of reading" right now -- I used to. Now I think I am more pragmatic and I don't know what his personal reading is going to be like in the future, and that is okay.

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I'll have to go through some other word problems to see if he stumbles. He usually has trouble with directions as well.

 

So you are saying we wouldn't need the teacher guide for level 1? Just the student book? There is only one for level 1.

 

 

Trouble is I am not a reading professionals and even if I were, I do not know you or your son and do not know for sure what you need or do not need.

 

If you are trying to save money and that is a primary goal, the student book alone (and I think you can see sample pages of it and the guide on line???) would give 3 sections, A review section (called Getting Started), a "Something New" section, and a reading passage, which can be done timed to help with fluency. From what you said at first about trouble with words like "meal" it sounded like the whole program would be of use. Then when you said he only missed one word on the whole assessment for all the Chapter Books, that made it sound like he does not need, or barely needs any of this program at all. Now as we are at him having trouble reading directions for math it sounds like he might after all need more rather than less. .... ??????

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Trouble is I am not a reading professionals and even if I were, I do not know you or your son and do not know for sure what you need or do not need.

 

If you are trying to save money and that is a primary goal, the student book alone (and I think you can see sample pages of it and the guide on line???) would give 3 sections, A review section (called Getting Started), a "Something New" section, and a reading passage, which can be done timed to help with fluency. From what you said at first about trouble with words like "meal" it sounded like the whole program would be of use. Then when you said he only missed one word on the whole assessment for all the Chapter Books, that made it sound like he does not need, or barely needs any of this program at all. Now as we are at him having trouble reading directions for math it sounds like he might after all need more rather than less. .... ??????

 

Sorry if I'm confusing you. I think I'm a little confused as too where he is at, hence the confusion. What I do know is that the time he struggles most with single syllable words is when he is reading word problems or directions. When he is reading in context he seems to do ok. He does struggle more with multi-syllable words.

 

Here is the link to the passages from the chapter books that he read. http://www.highnoonbooks.com/HNB/find_reading_level_1.tpl?cart=13665970245074947

 

I obviously need to do a little further research and test him more to see where he is really at. Do you know of any reading level assessments I could give him? I'm going to have him read the placement test from Abcd that Lecka recommends, mainly to see how he does with nonsense words.

 

Thanks for all of your help! I really appreciate it!

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My son's extra spelling words are from the math curriculum and he often can't read them: difference, equals, equation, pyramid, sphere, cylinder, etc Are all words he has had trouble with recently.

 

He does know a growing number of multi syllable words that he has seen over and over, but they are not the same kind of words to decode as the math words.

 

For me 1) keep in mind he has learned some words and reads some words from context, he may not be solid on all words of that type or pattern. 2) do keep track some of his errors (informally) and see it you can do extra practice with them or review them maybe 3) expect content vocabulary in math and maybe science and maybe other subjects to need extra work, bc they can be hard works and may not be words coming up in fiction reading.

 

My son is probably always going to need help with content vocabulary, both reading the word and being able to say the word and knowing the word. He gets words confused easily and I think this is just something for me to work around in after schooling.

 

Not that I don't expect to do root word studies and stuff, I just don't expect that to be a 100% solution.

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If he was able to read all the passages in a fluent way and understanding what he was reading, not just barely able to, or groping or halting, or reading, but not understanding--except for one word in the last passage, then, my understanding as a past user of the HN program, is that, that puts him at about a grade 4 reading level--or, in other words pretty much graduated from their program unless needing high/low materials they offer (which since his age is not hugely above his apparent reading level, he probably does not, though maybe would enjoy graphic history or something like that).

 

If, as is possible, he has some stealth dyslexia, or something like that, which you also thought and often parent gut reactions are correct, and also that he has trouble when there is less context, then it might still be useful to review single syllable words and so on, and you could do that via the HN Student books alone (a relatively low cost way, I think, and the sections that are not a reading passage take words out of context for practice) --.the student workbook and teacher guide give more practice,and other types of practice like dictations and so on, but there is still a lot of reading practice in just the student book, or by getting some of the Chapter Books (but it all stays in context in those).. below his apparent level from the assessment and practicing with those. If his reading was not fluent, you could work on fluency, if low comprehension you could work on that (they have separate materials for those areas).

 

Or, if he is at 4th grade reading level, which you did post initially, and which the assessment seems to indicate, it could be that work on books that interest him from library or bought would be more useful/fun at this point (partly more useful because more fun--the interest and enjoyment helps make the reading stick, I think).

 

And no matter what else you choose to do, it sounds like direct work on math word problems and instructions is needed.

 

I think Barton also has nonsense words tests on its website, and I've seen some others online from time to time, but don't have links. Maybe google it?

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Well, last night my son struggled and struggled with the word "waited." He definitely has the ability to read this word and has read it before. He got frustrated and started having it start with "mmm" and then just more off-the-wall guessing.

 

He has not done this with a word he "should" know in a while, but he used to do it all the time, I used to just prompt him with a first sound (or the sound incorrect) all the time, b/c once he does not have it correct, it is so hard for him to get to the right sound.

 

It just made me think of your son and "meal," bc I know my son has a solid 2nd grade reading level, and he shouldn't and usually wouldn't get hung up on "waited." I don't think I need to review the letter w but I will if he makes this mistake again anytime soon.

 

In practice though I think he does skip over words and go back to them or just fill in the blank word by what makes sense, when he is reading silently.

 

I am very pleased with how he is doing, but I am not going to be disappointed if some of these glitchy things do not 100% go away. That is why there are accomodations of listening to audio books and things like that.

 

He does do much better when his mood is good, and he is not tired. When he is tired or his mood or confidence go down, his ability to read plummets. I think this is natural, maybe just more extreme with him than it is with other children for reading, but not different than for other children who have got a hard time with something and get frustrated.

 

I have overall done everything "right," too, so it is possible to do everything "right" and still have a child who still has some difficulty. So don't worry about that! I don't think improvement always means getting to 100%. But it is so much better than not having the improvement and ability that is gained. (Of course until there are opportunity costs from not pursuing other strength areas etc, but we are not at that place.)

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I gave my son the Abce placement assessment that Lecka linked above. On the letter sounds sheet he read 50 in one minute and only missed one. It says that if he got less than 60 then to supplement with the letter/sound fluency sheets in the level A blending/segmenting work. Do you know if this is available on the site, ( I know they have a few fluency sheets available) or is it in the level A materials? I have that as well. I'll have to do some research.

 

Test one he read all 99 words just under a minute and only missed one, which was the word up he said on. Towards the bottom he misread left, but when he got to the end of the sentence he realized what he read didn't make sense and went back and self-corrected

 

Nonsense words 1, he read 11 in 30 seconds and didn't miss any.

 

Text 2 he raed the whole passage in just under a minute and only missed one word which was gnawed, he didn't know that the g was silent.

 

Nonsense words 2, he read 12 in 30 seconds and missed trupe.

 

With all of that it looks like he would be place in level b short version if we were to use Abcd.

 

I also gave him a couple of other reading assessments that I found online. http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/articles/060899.htm

 

I don't know how well these assessments are but he did better than I expected.

 

On the first assessment he read through the first 3 rows ending at about a 6.9 grade level for reading. He was able to read the 3 columns in that third row however it wasn't fluent, he had to sound out most of them but I kept him going until he reached 5 mistakes which is what the assessment said to do. He got five mistakes in the fourth row first column. Some of the mistakes he made before that were, he read equally for quality, urge he didn't know and didn't even try to sound out, collapse, grieve, he couldn't figure out, abuse he read as abyss, he couldn't figure out image, or exhaust. He was able to wound out quaratine which surprised me.

 

I had a harder time figuring out where he placed on the second assessment. He misread bigger as better in the first column so that would put him at a first grade independent reading level by the directions of the assessment which I know isn't true. In the second column he couldn't read quietly. In the third colum he misread middle, and he said mountain for moment. So that would put him at a third grade instructionsal level. I had him stop after the fifth column, where he missed the last three words

 

I'm still trying to sort through all of this information and see what it means. In the meantime I"m going to have him read aloud to me from library books and see what happens.

 

Thanks ladies for all your advice!

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The author of Abecedarian answers questions on the yahoo group (though not always timely). I think you could contact them.

 

My son has trouble with flashcards, he just is not good with them. He does better with the things across a page (like Abevedarian). A lot of programs would say to use flashcards to practice the sounds and to spend 5-10 minutes at the beginning of every session going over phonogram flashcards.

 

It is not something I would do with my son but if he happened to have an easier time with flashcards, AAS has flashcards like that, and others. I think it is an option. (For getting faster on the letter sounds and speed of recalling them.).

 

I also don't time my son and do not bring time up, he will get anxiety. At school he does untimed math facts in a hallway while his class does timed -- his teacher even agrees. He does better with untimed, he makes more mistakes with timed.

 

If you have AAS 1 -- I think some of the level A abcd might be similar.... If he might prefer doing the tiles. If he might prefer not using tiles to practice maybe not so much.

 

I think he must be really smart to accommodate and read so well, while having trouble with some of these individual words.

 

-ge in image and urge seems like it might be a pattern, but image is a hard word I think.

 

As far as the shortened level B -- see if you can see a sample. I think the material is similar to what is in High Noon. I think they are both good options.

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I had a harder time figuring out where he placed on the second assessment. He misread bigger as better in the first column so that would put him at a first grade independent reading level by the directions of the assessment which I know isn't true. In the second column he couldn't read quietly. In the third colum he misread middle, and he said mountain for moment. So that would put him at a third grade instructionsal level. I had him stop after the fifth column, where he missed the last three words

 

 

 

Just wanted to say that my older DD does these word list tests pretty much like this - very low "independent" reading level and yet "too difficult" is always well above her current grade. At one point I believe she had NO independent reading level :huh: according to this particular test. She can also miss multiple at an easier level and then get a later level all correct so now I let her keep going ignoring when a test says to stop ( it is usually very clear where it gets "too difficult" vs. a mistake or three) .

 

Basically I don't think this type of test is accurate for all struggling readers. Although it still gives useful information, it is not the information the test purports to give (independent/instructional/too difficult levels).

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...

I had a harder time figuring out where he placed on the second assessment. He misread bigger as better in the first column so that would put him at a first grade independent reading level by the directions of the assessment which I know isn't true. In the second column he couldn't read quietly. In the third colum he misread middle, and he said mountain for moment. So that would put him at a third grade instructionsal level. I had him stop after the fifth column, where he missed the last three words

 

...

 

 

 

Not so much to get a grade level, but to see if there is a problem, this does sound like dyslexia-ish type errors where a child has learned to guess at words. Since he got the nonsense words, it sounds like he can sound out words if he needs to do so--at least most of the time--that "meal" difficulty still is troubling. Clearly he is not generally at 1st grade level--you knew that in the first place, the question is does he need some review so that he can move on and do word problems and so on that are now a problem without such difficulty. For a 12 year old to be having such mix-ups to me does sound like he needs something.

 

And then it comes back to that that is the sort of thing HN with its methods can help with, but one is sort of guessing at what the problem is and what would help. So, again, maybe at least contact HN, ABCE, etc. And consider maybe more formal testing?

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I think it would be good to contact them, too.

 

An evaluation might be really helpful, too. I am not up on documenting problems for accomodations (my son is younger) but I think we will be doing that in a couple years. And any guidance would be great.

 

You have not said dyslexia so I don't think you have gotten all the "read Dyslexic Advantage, look at strengths" advice. It is true, though.

 

The same for listening to books.

 

I focus on pre-teaching and remediation right now but I read all the threads with people who have kids the age of your son who have got really good accomodations.

 

It is not easy! Maybe it would help to call about placement, and couldn't hurt.

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It sounds like mainly a problem with multi-syllable words.

 

There are several good resources for multi-sylalble words. In price order, least expensive to most expensive:

 

1. Webster's 1908 Speller (free!)

http://www.donpotter...gbookmethod.pdf

 

2. My syllable division rules and exercises, links #6 and #7 at the end of my how to tutor page (free!)

 

3. Megawords (Start with book 1, good for both reading and spelling. You need both teacher's manual and student book. Don't waste money on the assessment, just start in book 1, there are a lot of syllable patterns explained in book 1.)

 

4. Marcia Henry's Words (the samples are deceptive, it goes up to what they claim are 8th grade level words but are actually high school level Greek and Latin words. It also works on spelling and learning word roots. Plus, it reviews phonics basics before going into difficult words.)

 

5. Rewards (you probably want Secondary, you can compare samples from Intermediate and Secondary)

http://www.soprislea.../rewards-sample

 

Also, if you haven't done the tests on my testing page in a while, you may want to redo the NRRF reading grade level and the MWIA part II. The MWIA scores and error patterns can help pinpoint problems.

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  • 9 months later...

I am currently debating between Rewards Intermediate or High Noon Level 2 (trying to avoid a lot of writing and it seems like Megawords has more)... What did you end up using?  How did it go?

 

We just finished Dancing Bears C. 

 

I noticed a reference in this thread to a different High Noon book focused on multi-syllable words.  What book is this?  Also, does anyone have a Rewards Intermediate or High Noon set they'd like to sell?

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Just adding my mini review of Rewards from the other thread - since we hadn't done Rewards at the time of this thread.

 

 

Rewards  is not morpheme but is focused on prefixes and suffixes in a non-memorizing/non-rule way.  Definitely multi-syllable. DD's multi-syllable attack had huge improvement from Rewards. 

 

Rewards (Secondary) focuses on a strategy (Look for prefixes, suffixes and vowels in order to split the word into sounds - then say each sound to say the word) each section is meant to support a part of that strategy: 1st half --  oral blending parts into words, vowel combinations, finding the vowel, word part reading, looping words, oral accent flexing, common prefix, spelling by sound and suffix reading -- 2nd half -- vowel combinations, prefix/suffix reading, looping, word reading, spelling by sound, sentence practice and passage reading.   I believe Intermediate has a section of adding different endings - Secondary had that in the back of the teacher's manual, not in the lesson.

 

And one huge positive Rewards Secondary has that no other program has had - it was meant for high school students. So less of a remedial feeling for DD who has a few years to go before high school and hates that she has to be 'remediated'.   I even went ahead and bought the addtl Social Studies/Science book for just this reason - although the 1st passage in Social Studies (all we've done so far) is a step up from Rewards Secondary in difficulty.

 

And yes, that means it is hard for her - but I have come to believe I was doing her no favors keeping her down near her 'independent' reading level. Her instructional reading level has always tested much higher than grade level at the same time her independent reading level tests as much lower than grade level. So I am trying to keep most of her out loud reading practice up as close as possible to frustration level without actually hitting it.

 

(I bought my Rewards Secondary Manual and Student book on Amazon - from the same reseller. I figured they probably got them from the same place so would be the same edition.  Pricewise it was definitely worth it, even if I had been wrong and had to buy another student manual)

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am currently debating between Rewards Intermediate or High Noon Level 2 (trying to avoid a lot of writing and it seems like Megawords has more)... What did you end up using?  How did it go?

 

We just finished Dancing Bears C. 

 

I noticed a reference in this thread to a different High Noon book focused on multi-syllable words.  What book is this?  Also, does anyone have a Rewards Intermediate or High Noon set they'd like to sell?

 

Thanks for reviving this old thread.  It was interesting to go back and see where my ds was at then and how far he has come.  I decided not to use High Noon with him because it appeaded that he didn't need it. 

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