Finishing Chemistry, Next Step?

[jea115]

My son is finishing Apologia Chemistry this year and I'm undecided on what to do next year (he is currently a sophomore). He has decided he wants to go into an Engineering field and I'm afraid we have some catching up to do. I'm considering Advanced Chemistry next year and Physics his senior year. He has been using Catie Frates and has really enjoyed that but she does not have Advanced Chem. She is planning on adding Physics, possibly in the fall (according to an email I received from Science On Demand) but even if it is available I'm not sure if we should do it next or wait until his senior year. I'm looking for a way to continue to use Apologia if we can, but I don't want to use a live course online because our schedule is never the same from week to week. So pre-recorded would be best, and I'd love recommendations and opinions. I've looked briefly at Thinkwell in case we have to switch from Apologia.

 

If we use Advanced Chemistry (Apologia or otherwise) would he then be prepared for the AP chem exam next spring? I know in order to list it as an AP course it has to be an approved course but judging from what I've read so far on the boards if we use a non-AP curriculum could I possibly just list it as "Advanced Chemistry" and then report the AP score if he does well? I'm not sure why but I really hadn't looked into do AP courses until now (big mom mistake I suppose).

 

We also have the possibility of taking classes at a local community college. Is community college credit acceptable? Or does it need to be from a 4-year school? We live about an hour from the closest 4-year college/university. Which is "better", AP or cc? I'm also cosidering having him take the SAT Subject test in Chemistry this June while it's fresh on his mind.

 

I'm trying not to flip out but I'm really worried about making the right choices. It seems like the fact that we only have two years left has snuck up on me, and now I'm feeling like I don't have a plan in place!

 

TJ

[swimmermom3]

What did he do as a freshman for science and where is he at on math skills? That information my help us give you better advice.

 

Also, take a deep breath and have a piece of chocolate. :D

[jea115]

He did Biology as a Freshman. We've done "real" hands-on labs at co-op with both Biology and Chemistry. He did Algebra I as a freshman and we went straight into Algebra II. Since we didn't do Geometry between the two we are going to start that over the summer and finish it through the beginning of next school year if necessary. I'm considering throwing some Algebra review in there weekly next year too. Once he decided to think about Engineering I realized we probably need to do some things above and beyond the regular "gets good grades". Then the panic set in :)

 

Chocolate sounds really good about now.

[swimmermom3]

Will he take Physics his senior year if he takes AP Chemistry his junior year? Physics would be a priority, I would think.

[Arcadia]

I know in order to list it as an AP course it has to be an approved course but judging from what I've read so far on the boards if we use a non-AP curriculum could I possibly just list it as "Advanced Chemistry" and then report the AP score if he does well?

That is possible.

We also have the possibility of taking classes at a local community college. Is community college credit acceptable? Or does it need to be from a 4-year school? We live about an hour from the closest 4-year college/university. Which is "better", AP or cc?

To keep more doors open an AP score is better than a community college credit. There are people who took community classes for credit and took the AP exams as well. I have quite a few community colleges nearby but their quality for math and science vary quite a lot. It is hard for a college to gauge the quality of a community college credit. However if your child's intention is to use a particular community college credit to transfer into the local state university that has a credit transfer agreement, than it would be worth to collect those credits as a headstart.

 

He did Algebra I as a freshman and we went straight into Algebra II. Since we didn't do Geometry between the two we are going to start that over the summer and finish it through the beginning of next school year if necessary. I'm considering throwing some Algebra review in there weekly next year too.

 

Physics would be required. Pre-calculus and trigonometry would be a good foundation for engineering math in college. Calculus would be a nice to have but a strong Pre-Calculus is more important than rushing through. Algebra review would be beneficial.

 

Also Engineering is actually a wide field. For example

Chemical engineering/petroleum - chemistry, physics (biology is touch on for biofuel, biomass but easy to pick up)

Electrical/electronics - physics

Civil and stuctural - physics

Mechanical - physics

Environmental - physics, chemistry (whatever Biology needed, I learned at college)

Bioengineering - physics and biology

Computer engineering - math

Aeronautical - physics

 

Which area is your child most interested in? For college admissions to engineering, in general biology scores are the most forgivable while physics score are the most looked at.

 

Most libraries test prep section has the lastest SAT and AP prep books. Take a look and don't panic.

 

ETA:

Also take a look at the engineering handbook for any of the colleges your child might be interested in. The handbook would list the preferred high school courses most of the time.

 

ETA:

Spend time on technical writing skills. It would come in useful.

[Dicentra]

If we use Advanced Chemistry (Apologia or otherwise) would he then be prepared for the AP chem exam next spring? I know in order to list it as an AP course it has to be an approved course but judging from what I've read so far on the boards if we use a non-AP curriculum could I possibly just list it as "Advanced Chemistry" and then report the AP score if he does well?

TJ

 

 

I don't have any personal experience with the Apologia program but just be aware that "Advanced Chem" doesn't always = "AP Chem". Not to say that the Advanced Chem (whatever it might be) isn't rigorous enough but, like any of the standardized tests, AP Chem tests a certain group of topics in a certain way. If the Advanced Chem course he takes isn't specifically tailored to the AP Chem test (at least in part), make sure that your son works through one of the prep books for the test.

 

AP Chem will be changing in the 2013-2014 year so don't buy a test prep book now and don't buy a used one - an older book won't correlate to the new test. (Do I bring this up too often? Apologies if I do - I just want people to know - it can impact scores. :))

 

I agree with Swimmermom3 - a piece of lovely, dark, rich chocolate can fix just about anything. :D

[jea115]

Thanks for your responses. Physics is a definite for us, I’m just not sure if we will do it next year or his senior year. And I don’t know what science course to do in the year we don’t do Physics.

 

Also Engineering is actually a wide field. For example

Chemical engineering/petroleum - chemistry, physics (biology is touch on for biofuel, biomass but easy to pick up)

Electrical/electronics - physics

Civil and stuctural - physics

Mechanical - physics

Environmental - physics, chemistry (whatever Biology needed, I learned at college)

Bioengineering - physics and biology

Computer engineering - math

Aeronautical - physics

 

Which area is your child most interested in?

My guess is he will end up in Mechanical or Applied Engineering, or maybe Mechatronics. He has done Robotics for the past two years and loves it. He’s been making things out of Legos that weren’t really supposed to be made from Legos since he had his first set. I think he wants to be involved in the concept of new things and then also be a part of making them actually happen. What field is that? LOL

 

ETA:

Also take a look at the engineering handbook for any of the colleges your child might be interested in. The handbook would list the preferred high school courses most of the time.

I’ve looked at entrance requirements for a couple of the colleges but not the Engineering department. Thanks, I’ll do that.

 

ETA:

Spend time on technical writing skills. It would come in useful.

And that is actually my next question, and possibly should be a whole other post. What are the most beneficial courses/skills to be doing? CADD? Matlab? C++? Should he learn JAVA? Is it possible to do these online or should we be looking into actual courses? I’ve looked at so many things and I just don’t know what to try to cram in in the next two years J .

[amy58103]

ETA:

Spend time on technical writing skills. It would come in useful.

And that is actually my next question, and possibly should be a whole other post. What are the most beneficial courses/skills to be doing? CADD? Matlab? C++? Should he learn JAVA? Is it possible to do these online or should we be looking into actual courses? I’ve looked at so many things and I just don’t know what to try to cram in in the next two years J .

 

For a future engineer, this is what I would focus on in high school (listed in order of importance):

 

1. Math ... a strong foundation in algebra, geometry, and trig. Calculus is great if you can get to it, but don't rush through previous math courses just to get it on the transcript. Statistics would also be useful.

 

2. Language Arts ... strong verbal and written communication skills are a must! Do not underestimate this just because someone is "mathy." Focus on expository writing, research papers, lab reports, and oral presentations. Grammar and Style are also important.

 

3. Science ... the three "foundational" sciences (e.g. Biology, Chemistry, and Physics). Plus at least one advanced/AP science course, chosen based on the student's interest.

 

4. Microsoft Excel (or similar) ... practice using the built in formulas and making table/charts to present/analyze data.

 

5. Computer Science ... the language isn't important; learning how to "think" like a computer scientist is. I highly recommend MIT's introductory course on edx.org. Python and JAVA are popular these days. Don't even bother with Matlab; IMO this isn't really useful until you get into higher level math (differential equations, numerical analysis, etc.)

 

6. CAD is useful, especially if he is heading towards mechanical or civil.

[flyingiguana]

Don't panic, is my foremost advice. If you just keep up with doing rigorous science, it actually isn't too important which ones they are. The math is even more important. Make sure you do math thoroughly -- how far he gets isn't as important as doing it right. And all the other skills? Well, he can pick them up in college if he runs out of time now. They're nice, but there really is time after high school.

 

CC vs AP? With a cc course, you do get a teacher who's actually there. If you're lucky, they'll be competent enough to explain difficult concepts. That's not something you'll get with self-study (unless it's a good online course with personal contact). A cc course *might* be more likely to transfer into a university, but it's really going to depend on the cc and the university. (But be sure he's taking a majors course for his science at the cc -- I've seen a lot of kids unknowingly take a nonmajors course. That won't do an engineering student any good.)

 

But it's also possible to do a minimal chem course and not take any physics at all in high school and still go on to be one of the top physics majors in college. I know, because my first daughter has done this. We did focus a LOT on math, and that has been a huge help to her, probably a lot more than if we'd spent the time on science. (She also did a lot of theater, which was really good for learning how to speak in front of a crowd - another skill that's really essential in science.)

 

If you want to do some programming, Udacity has a nice Python course. Knowing how to program is always a plus -- but I wouldn't worry about *which* language it is. Once someone knows one language, the others are a lot easier.

 

We're doing Thinkwell chemistry right now as well. It looks like it's geared towards the AP test -- but the AP test of 10 or so years ago. So if you were to use that, you'd want to check on what the current topics are. Also, though, this is a case where I'm not sure it would work well unless you have someone available to explain the things that aren't explained. It's pretty good, but it's just the lectures. There's no one on one help of the kind you'd hopefully get in a cc class. (There may be more than one Thinkwell chem class -- so you'd want to find the one that is geared to the AP).

 

We haven't tried the Thinkwell physics. We're thinking of using the online MIT lectures for this, but that's going to require a lot of supplementation, and probably a lot of explanation on my part. (Wonderful demos in those lectures, though.)

[Arcadia]

. And I don’t know what science course to do in the year we don’t do Physics.

 

ETA:

Spend time on technical writing skills. It would come in useful.

And that is actually my next question, and possibly should be a whole other post. What are the most beneficial courses/skills to be doing? CADD? Matlab? C++? Should he learn JAVA? Is it possible to do these online or should we be looking into actual courses? I’ve looked at so many things and I just don’t know what to try to cram in in the next two years J .

 

 

One possibility is to do AP physics for that year, dual enroll for a community college class and take the AP exam. A strong physics foundation is definately needed for mechanical engineering.

 

For computer aided design exposure, your son can just install for free and play with Lego Digital Designer. Its the ability to translate a 3D model in his head to actual mechanical line drawings. Autocad is useful but can be pick up easily in college. Matlab can be easily pick up in college too.

 

For programming, arduino would probably be the best match as he can program robotic stuff like a gumball machine and more :) Books (library minght have) and a kit (radioshack or online) are all he need. Arduino can be programmed in C and Java.

 

ETA:

Some of my cousins own manufacturing factory/plant (metal, plastic) and my brother graduated from mechatronics. Let me know if you have more questions.

[jea115]

This is all very helpful, thank you all so much! This is my go-to board for curriculum questions because I know I can trust the people on here to have tried it all and have an opinion :) And sometimes I come away feeling a little overwhelmed but this time I actually feel less panicked! I feel like the things we need to do next are manageable, at least. Just as good a chocolate. But I'm keeping some around for the next time I get that anxious feeling...

[StephanieZ]

I'd do physics next year for sure, especially since he is leaning towards engineering. That way, he can choose what he prefers for senior science. Maybe ap physics or ap chem, or maybe some super cool open course ware stuff from MIT or wherever, get physics out of the way so he can have choices senior year.

[Arcadia]

Saw this website and thought it might help your son and anyone else interested. http://www.tryengineering.org/home.php

[Jen in NY]

Haven't had time to read every single response ... and running out the door... but I wanted to throw this out there: (Why, oh why can I not paragraph from this computer??) Anyhow.... The APChem exam will be new next year, as the Biology one is this year. For that reason, my dd will take PhysicsB next year (the last year of the 'old' physics exam), and Chem the year after. The wonder and worry about how exactly to prepare for the new exams is not something I want to repeat for her entire high school career. Maybe we are making to much of it, but it has been stressful for us. Also, our sequence has included one high school level chem class, and then AP Bio, Physics B, and AP Chem - as long as math skills are decent it shouldn't be a problem to jump into the PhysicsB as a first physics class. Sorry for the wonky formatting ------

[Brenda in MA]

I agree with StephanieZ and Jen in NY -- I would definitely have your son take physics next year.

 

Personally, I am not a fan of Apologia, so I would suggest either Derek Owens on-line course for regular physis or PA Homeschoolers for AP physics B. Both of these courses are asynchronous, so your student would have some schedule flexibility. The AP physics would be time consuming (plan ~ 2 hr/day), the regular course a little less so.

 

Then, you can have your son take an advanced chem or physics in 12th grade. My son (who is studying MechE) took college chem at the local CC in 12th. It was a great experience for him, and it transferred to his 4-yr college. He didn't have to take Freshman Chem, and was relieved about that. I would only recommend taking the transfer credit for CC Chemistry if he isn't planning on majoring in something like Chemical Engineering, which would require upper level Chem courses at college.

 

Regarding the SAT2 Chem test -- make sure that you have your son take a practice test or two before attempting this after only Apologia Chem. Apologia Chem doesn't cover all the topics on the SAT2 Chem, and unless your son does some extra prep work, he is not likely to do well on the SAT2. I know this because it happened to my son -- he scored poorly on the SAT2 Chem after using Apologia Chem (but he did very well in the CC Chem course, so it all worked out in the end). I just wish I hadn't wasted his time & my money on the SAT2.

 

HTH,

Brenda

[mjbucks1]

You have been given great advice. I just wanted to clarify the changes they are making to AP tests. Next year is the FIRST year of the new AP Chem test and the LAST year of the current AP Physics B exam. Starting with the 2015 AP Physics B test, it will be split up into a 2 year course. I would be tempted to have him do AP Physics B this coming year, and then perhaps attempt the AP Physics C exam his senior year. He could also choose to do AP Chem his senior year, which will have given everyone a year to see how the new exam is going to work. But since he is looking at mechanical engineering it might be more worthwhile to concentrate on physics.

I just wanted to add that my ds took Programming in Java from The Potters School last year, and is currently taking AP Computer Programming from PA Homeschoolers. He has loved it! He definately felt taking a logic course helped him with this.

[jea115]

Again, all great advice!! Thank you everyone who responded!

 

TJ

[jea115]

Saw this website and thought it might help your son and anyone else interested. http://www.tryengineering.org/home.php

 

 

 

Just looked at this and LOVE it! Lots of things to try!! And I also think looking over the different projects will give him a better understanding of which type of Engineering interests him the most.

 

TJ