Are all divorced men so bitter?

[Catwoman]

Actually, a couple close to me is going through a divorce where the man is left bewildered. She states that he didn't do anything wrong, that she just doesn't love him anymore and that she never did. (That she never did is a crock by the way....) She's refused counseling, mediation, etc. She's pushing the divorce through as fast as possible. (Some of us suspect that she is leaving to be with another man, but she's keeping it under wraps until the divorce is final.) The man in this situation tried everything to save his marriage, but she refused to try. He's doing everything he can to ease the transition for the kids, but it's not going so well. All because of choices she made. It's very much like she is the one having a midlife crisis and is acting the way a stereotypical man would.

 

I think the situation you described is a lot more common than people realize. Apparently, midlife crises aren't just for men!

[Catwoman]

I am not arguing the validity of your experiences, I am sure they are real. The only men I know who say their wives "just left them" indeed did not listen to their wives pleading with them to make changes. Even someone falling out of love with someone is not just a random, "I'm done here," it was probably hard to leave the father of your child over a lack of romantic feelings. Not that it was his fault at all, but I'm guessing she thought a lot about it, and did not, "just do it."

 

I know three women who left their husbands and their kids. One of them fell in love with some idiot that worked at the local grocery store, another left for a guy she met at church and moved across the country with him, and the third one "just got bored and needed a new life." Believe me when I tell you that these women weren't thinking of anyone but themselves when they made their choices. (Two of them bragged about it.) Thank goodness the husbands were also devoted fathers, because can you imagine what it's like to be a child and have your mom move out one day because she "needs a new life" without you? :(

 

I'm not saying that men haven't done the exact same thing; I'm just saying that we can't assume that women put more emotion or deep thought into leaving their marriages and families than men do. I think we're really selling men short when we assume that women are the ones who have a harder time making the decision to leave.

[Murphy101]

 

 

I think the situation you described is a lot more common than people realize. Apparently, midlife crises aren't just for men!

 

I think it is too. Women who openly admitted their husband was a nice decent guy who didn't do anything wrong, they just didn't want to be married any longer. The kids were teens or grown, the husband was about to retire and had visions of finally sitting back with the wife, maybe traveling, or whatever and instead his wife basicly says that she quits. Weird.

[Arcadia]

Thank goodness the husbands were also devoted fathers, because can you imagine what it's like to be a child and have your mom move out one day because she "needs a new life" without you?

 

My uncle's ex-wife did that while their only child was a toddler. Seems my uncle was not rich enough. Anyway she walk out and never came back to visit her child and my cousin is now married with no memory of his mum. My uncle didn't remarry.

 

ETA:

He wasn't bitter. He was shocked and than pick up the pieces and was a good single father.

[butterflymommy]

Even in this day and age when so many people in the developed world have internet access, it's a bad idea to judge a group of people based on the ones motivated (often by strong emotions) to post about their experiences online.

 

For instance, if people judged homeschooling mothers and families by the people who post here, they probably would not get an accurate portrait.

 

As far as divorced men, as others have said, I have met men who run the range from very happily divorced to embittered and hateful. As with most things it depends on the circumstances of the break up and the personalities involved.

[Scarlett]

In my own experience, I have seen more bitter ex-wives than bitter ex-husbands. Most of the men just seemed sort of lost and sad when their wives left them. OTOH, when the husbands were the ones to leave, many of the wives were out for blood.

 

Yeah I probably fall into the bitter xw camp even though I divorced him.....but I divorced him because he was a cheater.

 

My dh is very sad and sometimes angry because his xw left him and took their boys. It is a hard situation....men really do still get the short end of the stick in divorces.

[mommymilkies]

. 

 

[Scarlett]

If a woman stays in the same city/ area then a father can often get 50/50 time with his kids. However if she moves away there is no way to force her to do that.

 

My dh wishes his xw had left him AND the kids....instead she took the kids away and deprived the kids of their father and my dh of his kids.

[Scarlett]

 

 

 

Well, for many many reasons I'm thankful I wasn't forced by a judge to spend 1/2 the time at my father's house.

 

And I also believe it would be a bad idea for kids to not have a stable "place" where they can have a full life. Constantly being shuttled between homes hours apart doesn't allow kids to have a solid identity anywhere. How are they going to play sports or participate in other extracurriculars, get a job, etc., etc., etc. if they are forced to be hours away 1/2 the time?

 

The father of my oldest boys neglected them while they were at his house. How is it right to let a 4 year old get Pop Tarts for the 2 year old for breakfast each morning at 8am, that they eat while watching TV all day, so that Dad can sleep until 2, while Mom who provides good meals and a wholesome environment is home waiting for them to come back? I had to FLY home in the middle of my boys' 3-month-long visits with their father to get their hair cut, cut their nails, brush their teeth, and clean their ears. He truly wanted nothing to do with them, and then insisted on taking them for the longest time possible as a power play, just to get back at me for leaving him. His indifference toward any of us was ONE of the reasons I left in the first place. I could write a book with all the trouble he has caused in their lives. And you think that's okay? And he should have been sanctioned by law to do that with more of their time?

 

Is your position about what's best for the father, or the kids? Fair doesn't mean equal. In a divorce it should mean the KIDS get what they need.

 

As the wife of an excellent father who had his sons unfairly ripped away from him I see Bethany's point. And yet ...my ds wouldn't want to be at his dads house half time and his dad works too much anyway.

 

Shared parenting only works when the parents live near each other. It is very difficult to stop a woman from moving away though. And then the father is reduced to seeing his kids 4 days a month.

 

As far as what is best for the kids....I believe in almost all cases it IS best for the kids to have more equal time with both parents. Even in those cases where the kid prefers one home over the other. But two people who couldn't stay married aren't likely to be able to work together and co parent their children effectively.

[Catwoman]

Shared parenting isn't even easy when parents live in the same neighborhood. The children still have 2 homes and 2 sets of rules, and half of their possessions at one house and half at another. Half the time, they're getting off the school bus at one stop, and half the time, they're getting off at another. At one house, they're doing their homework as soon as they get home from school, while at the other, they're doing it after dinner.

 

I have known kids in what would seem to be that ideal situation, and it was very hard on them. They felt like ping-ping balls, bouncing back and forth between "homes." (And these were kids with excellent parents, who were relatively friendly after their divorces. I can only imagine how a 50/50 split would feel to a child if the parents hated each other. The stress must be enormous.)

 

I think that parents need to consider, first and foremost, what is best and most stable for their children, and make their custody arrangements based on that, not on what they want for themselves. I know a guy who is a great father, but who didn't fight his wife for a 50/50 arrangement, because he believed his kids were better off living in the family home with their mom and seeing him very frequently. He thought it would have been selfish of him to demand equal time with the kids, when what the kids needed was stability and more predictable lives and routines. I know he was sad about it, but he said it was more important that the kids come home from school to the same house every day and wake up in the same bed most mornings. (The kids usually stayed with him on the weekends, and it was OK because he lived locally and could take them to their activities.)

 

No situation is ideal, but I do believe that the parents have to put their own interests aside and prioritize their children's well-being over their own. If the 50/50 thing is truly best for the kids, that's great, but if it isn't, the parents should recognize it and stop competing with each other long enough to hash out the best solution.

[Rosie_0801]

 

No situation is ideal, but I do believe that the parents have to put their own interests aside and prioritize their children's well-being over their own. If the 50/50 thing is truly best for the kids, that's great, but if it isn't, the parents should recognize it and stop competing with each other long enough to hash out the best solution.

 

It's not always caused by competing. It's not unnatural to think that what suits you is what suits your kids, I don't think.

[Catwoman]

 

It's not always caused by competing. It's not unnatural to think that what suits you is what suits your kids, I don't think.

 

That's an excellent point.

[Scarlett]

 

 

That's an excellent point.

 

And to further that point what if you are the dad who doesn't have custody and you believe your kids are in a unhealthy environment with their mom....wouldn't you think it would be better for them if they could be with you more?

[Catwoman]

And to further that point what if you are the dad who doesn't have custody and you believe your kids are in a unhealthy environment with their mom....wouldn't you think it would be better for them if they could be with you more?

 

Absolutely, but in that case the Dad would be putting the kids' interests first by trying to get custody or increase his visitation. At that point, it's about the father wanting his kids to be in the best possible situation, and if the mom has serious issues, the kids would be better off with him.

[Pippen]

Most of the divorced men I have met are truly this bitter. The funny thing is though most of them either cheated on their wife, were abusive, alcoholics, etc. And yet in their mind somehow it was the wife's fault for leaving them. I can only figure that indeed they are just that clueless. Having been through this myself, I can totally understand where you are coming from.

 

My dad was married five times (divorced four times and separated from #5 at the time of his death). He never truly saw his own flaws but he held the most bitterness for wife #1 who was my mom. Maybe it was because it was the only union in which he had biological children or maybe there is something about the first.

[Scarlett]

 

 

Absolutely, but in that case the Dad would be putting the kids' interests first by trying to get custody or increase his visitation. At that point, it's about the father wanting his kids to be in the best possible situation, and if the mom has serious issues, the kids would be better off with him.

 

Right. Except you have to be a crack prostitute to actually lose custody of your kids OR for your xh to get more visitation especially if you have craftily managed to move them to the middle of nowhere.

[Catwoman]

Right. Except you have to be a crack prostitute to actually lose custody of your kids OR for your xh to get more visitation especially if you have craftily managed to move them to the middle of nowhere.

 

I think a lot of it depends on whether or not you have a good attorney, and which judge you get. We know fathers who have gotten custody of their kids.

[Danestress]

 

 

I think a lot of it depends on whether or not you have a good attorney, and which judge you get. We know fathers who have gotten custody of their kids.

 

Of course. I know perfectly good Moms who don't have custody because the dad was deemed a better choice. I would say Moms more frequently have primary custody because Moms more frequently are primary caregivers before the divorce, but I have, of course, seen it go the other way. Some kids luck out and have two great parents. Sometimes they can't share 50/50 because of jobs and living further apart. Sometimes it just works better for Dad to be primary, and that is no reflection on the mom at all.

[Scarlett]

And of course that is the point......every situation is different and the cookie cutters laws they have or even worse the importance of a good attorney which translates to who has the most money....really it is almost always a big joke.

[Scarlett]

...

[Anne in CA]

We got custody of my step dd after her "real" mom got arrested for enough meth that it was certain she must be dealing and violated probation TWICE. Believe it or not, in our town at that time a father could not have gotten custody without that much proof that his ex was not making any effort at all to be a decent mother. The worst thing about step dd's mother was not her drug use, believe it or not. It was the crazy world in her mind in which all men are uncaught serial rapists and the inability to tell the truth at any time. Not to mention that she loved to watch horror movies like Chuckie with her kids even as young as two years old. Those things made her an unfit parent, but dh never could have gotten custody based on those things. She had four other kids that are not dh's those kids break my heart. All but one are grown up now. Only one has a high school diploma, the other two that are adults have so many piercings and tattoos that they are unemployable. Very sad.

 

But now men do get custody based on all sorts of things. I do think it really depends on where you live and what judges happen to be in your town. More than that, some people lie better than other people can tell the truth. I learned that if I tell the truth, and dh's ex wife tells a lie a person in authority would believe her over me even with proof that I was telling the truth. Those days are long gone, her drug use has caught up to her and no one would take her seriously now, but twenty years ago that was a different story.

[Sandsam]

I am married to a man who divorced his first wife. She cheated on him, then wanted him to 'wait' for her while she explored her new relationship.LOL.

 

He is not the least bit bitter.

[Scarlett]

I am married to a man who divorced his first wife. She cheated on him, then wanted him to 'wait' for her while she explored her new relationship.LOL.

 

He is not the least bit bitter.

 

Did he have kids with her?

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

 

Would you be so quick to judge 3rd tier feminists sites ?

 

yes

 

:zombie:

[OneStepAtATime]

ZOMBIE THREAD

[MFG]

 

Hi Joe! Do you play rugby?

 

Thoughts on the recent World Cup?

[abba12]

Would you be so quick to judge 3rd tier feminists sites ?

 

Yes, actually many of the women here would, because we tend to be very critical thinkers

 

Also, this thread is two years old

 

Also, you have three posts, all on this thread, did you join this forum just to comment here? You realize this is a homeschooling forum right? 

[SparklyUnicorn]

That sounds reasonable Joe. 

 

When people are upset/hurting they often say angry things.  It's understandable. 

 

 

[abba12]

Yes, I joined just comment on this, and yes, saw the thread is 3 years old.

 

Is this a problem ?

 

I am here to answer questions if you have them since I saw your "ciritcal thinking" was a bit off at the time of the thread.

 

Well aren't you a charming fellow....  :glare:

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, I joined just comment on this, and yes, saw the thread is 3 years old.

 

Is this a problem ?

 

I am here to answer questions if you have them since I saw your "ciritcal thinking" was a bit off at the time of the thread.

 

Yes it is a problem.  This is in large part a homeschooling board.  Some people have been posting here for years and like to run thoughts by their friends.  Granted, it's not really a private message board, but it makes people uncomfortable when someone randomly joins to discuss a very old thread. 

[LucyStoner]

Yes, I joined just comment on this, and yes, saw the thread is 3 years old.

 

Is this a problem ?

 

I am here to answer questions if you have them since I saw your "ciritcal thinking" was a bit off at the time of the thread.

Huh, yeah. It is a problem. For you. I daresay that there are healthier ways to heal after a divorce than to google around, find random boards and zombie old threads back to life. It's also considered poor form online to zombie veeerrrry old threads back to life in a community you aren't a part of.

 

MRAs do not speak for all men anymore than any one stripe of feminism speaks for all women. Being extremely critical of the MRA movement doesn't make me (a happily married heterosexual woman and mother of two boys) anti-men or anti-male. I for one do stand behind my anti-MRA statements. Being hurt after a divorce, well, hurts. It's also a normal part of life. It doesn't mean marriage universally doesn't work or that men are under attack.

 

And yeah, in the right context crazy cat lady tropes are hi-flipping-larious.

[Scarlett]

Yes, I joined just comment on this, and yes, saw the thread is 3 years old.

 

Is this a problem ?

 

I am here to answer questions if you have them since I saw your "ciritcal thinking" was a bit off at the time of the thread.

How did you end up here?

 

My dh was abandoned by his first wife and it devastated him. I wouldn't say he is bitter in general but he is deeply wounded that he lost out in much of his kids childhood.

[Ailaena]

 

i want to take this moment to think well wishes to those who posted in this thread who no longer post here <3

 

And I want to take this next moment to give that new man a nice hug. Rugby, you sound like you need a genuine, things-will-be-better-one-day hug {{RugbyJoe}}

[Jean in Newcastle]

A person who resurrects a zombie thread just to stir up controversy -   hmmm.   :zombiechase:  :zombiechase:  :zombiechase:

[OH_Homeschooler]

Huh, yeah. It is a problem. For you. I daresay that there are healthier ways to heal after a divorce than to google around, find random boards and zombie old threads back to life. It's also considered poor form online to zombie veeerrrry old treads back to life in a community you aren't a part of.

 

MRAs do not speak for all men anymore than any one stripe of feminism speaks for all women. Being extremely critical of the MRA movement doesn't make me (a happily married heterosexual woman and mother of two boys) anti-men or anti-male. I for one do stand behind my anti-MRA statements. Being hurt after a divorce, well, hurts. It's also a normal part of life. It doesn't mean marriage universally doesn't work or that men are under attack.

 

And yeah, in the right context crazy cat lady tropes are hi-flipping-larious.

 

I embrace my crazy cat lady persona. 

 

And I'm totally with you on the MRA thing. 

 

I know several divorced men who are much happier now than they ever were when they were married. 

[creekland]

:lurk5:  No dog in this fight - just bringing the popcorn to share as I've been upping my salt intake lately and know there are other salt lovers out there. :coolgleamA: 

 

 I know both depressed/bitter and happy men post divorce.  It all depends upon their circumstances.

 

I love my marriage... and my guy.  I feel fortunate to have met him because back in the day when we decided to be friends and get married I was super clueless about the whole "what to look for" thing.  I got lucky.  He's the better half of the two of us if I want to be honest.  I'm pretty sure if we were to ever divorce, my mom would keep him.   :lol:

[JustEm]

But you didn't come on to discuss anything. You came on and started attacking old comments. There was nothing insightful or helpful in your first few posts. You set the tone for everyone else's responses and it was a negative tone.

[redsquirrel]

And if this is how you address women who challenge you even slightly....I think I might have found the source of your problems.

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

Do not feed the zombie thread

[LucyStoner]

Well, if you don't like it then leave the thread, and I will talk to other people.

 

What are the healthier ways to deal with stuff?

 

Oh, I am not part of the community ? Then why do I have an account ? If it is a problem, then have a moderator take care of the situation. If it is just that you don't like it, then tough cookies, this is a public place.

 

Or did you mean to say I am not welcome hear to give my point of view because it challenges what is being said ?

 

What is your problem with MRA anyway ? Because you feel they blame women for everything ? I can see that, they are extreme. But, there is not much support out their for men, from my expereince thus men will be draw to it unfortunately.

 

Btw, why is this not healthy, and why can't I comment on something I am enjoying on commenting on ? Plus if this is an old thread that no one cares about then why have I found people that want to converse.

 

BTW, nothing wrong with marriage if that is what you choose to do, but I also very much believe that marriage is not always the solution in a relationship. If two people love each other then why does the government need to get involved ? Why does there need to be legalitiies involved ? This is not the 1950's. Women are perfectly capable of support themselves.

 

But, again, that is just me. I know many people that are married, and I support them in their relationship and marriage, it is a beautful thing even if I do not personally believe in it.

 

As for being hurt, is it not so much that as being lost. I know so many do not believe this, but these are tought times to be a man. The world has very much changed, IMO. Some of use are just doing our best to figure it out.

Dude, this thread doesn't belong to you.

 

The world hasn't changed. Your world changed. Your marriage ended. The world in general remains the same with the same awesome things and the same horrible things.

 

I hope you are continuing to see that therapist you mentioned.

 

Healthier ways to move on:

 

Take a vacation.

Find a new hobby.

Take a college class.

Immerse yourself in whatever social or religious community you find solace in.

Volunteer to help people in need- tutor, work in a shelter or food bank or soup kitchen.

Take on a new professional challenge.

Connect with people IRL.

 

This is the lounge of a homeschooling board. This isn't your community merely because you register an account and make several posts. It's a community forged by years of connection around a similar vocation. It's not clear to me from your posts that you have children at all, much less are a homeschooling parent (or otherwise interested in classical home education).

 

Kevetching to us because you disagree with things we expressed some 2.5 years ago isn't productive for you.

 

And if you are actually interested, my issue with MRA is that I see it basically as some men getting their man panties in a twist because they are not quite as advantaged as they imagine they were before women had the right to vote. My husband sees it much the same way. They are, in so far as we can tell, just whining because male privilege isn't quite as privileged as it was before. It's just misogyny dressed up with some (they think) clever lingo. MRAs also often either dismiss, deny or condone violence towards women and children. We've got two extra kids to care for in the here and now for significant chunks of time because of domestic violence so neither one of us is down with people who are either down with DV or minimize its impact.

[unsinkable]

Oh, there are topics (that have little or nothing to do with education) that you can start and you'd be welcomed with open arms and head pats.

[SproutMamaK]

Maybe my problem is I won't pacify people because of their sex ?

 

Or maybe comments like this are your problem. Goodness, who could possibly imagine why you're not having any luck in the dating world? Newsflash: people are responding poorly to you not because you're a man, but because you're as ass.

 

That meets my quota of troll-feeding for the day.

 

[MFG]

Yeah, I playED rugby for 15 years. It was great, and I would NEVER have changed playing. But, it is a young man's game, and when I turned 33 years old, I could no longer heal in a week's time, so any injury got worse. Plus we are talking semi-pro league, so you have to go to work on Monday, thus I had to retire.

 

I didn't get to see much of the World Cup :( I could not justify paying $200 for a sport package to watch it, so I only saw one game. The international pros are just so skilled, and amazing athletes. I guess my biggest thought on it was I could not believe Japan beat South Africa, but then again they have been playing much better then their reputation gives them credit for.

I knew nothing about rugby until four years ago. Dh had a short term work assignment in New Zealand and we were there during RWC 2011. That was a total immersion introduction to rugby! It is a great game.

 

I agree with you on Japan over SA. Biggest upset of the tournament. I was also chagrined that the Eagles were the only team to score 0 points during a pool play game. I didn't see any games, just highlights. I hope some will be online after a while.

 

Which position did you play?

[LucyStoner]

This isn't a private board, nor does anyone expect it to be. This board is attached to/moderated by a well regarded homeschool curriculum writer, speaker and publisher. It's up to everyone who comes here to decide if they have a reason to be here. It's clear though that your reason was that in googling for some search terms about divorce and men, you found us and started posting without regards to the age of the thread.

[creekland]

The one thing I can say from an educational aspect, as a professional engineer, it cannot be all math all the time, only well-rounded students become well-rounded workers.

 

 

I'll totally agree with you on this - as will most here. ;)

 

ps  My great guy is also a PE.  He owns his own company.  We've raised well-rounded kids who also happened to be homeschooled for at least part of their education.

[redsquirrel]

he keeps on saying his is leaving but he keeps coming back to 'finish' the conversation.

 

You know what they say, always give an asshole the last word. It's the least you can do

[gardenmom5]

he keeps on saying his is leaving but he keeps coming back to 'finish' the conversation.

 

You know what they say, always give an asshole the last word. It's the least you can do

 

is it time for trolls in kilts pix?  

[Jean in Newcastle]

is it time for trolls in kilts pix?  

only if it is public domain or you took it yourself.  

[Sdel]

I think they probably have a right to be bitter about their circumstances.  The divorce process certainly produces plenty of women who are bitter about the men who leave them and their kids and don't pay child support etc.....  Women are more than capable of being the problem in the relationship/divorce/parenting scheme and its NOT rare for women to be the aggressors. 

 

Really, as a man, would you be all that happy if your wife left you for another man, got custody of your kids and left you with one weeknight plus 1st, 3rd, 5th weekends and a few holidays with your kids and then the state was taking anywhere from 20 - 50% of your income in child/spousal support?  I think most women would be outraged if this is what they were left with after a divorce; but a man is expected to be okay with this?

 

Now, add on to it the possibility that the woman is hell bent on being as vindictive as possible and overall is a crappy parent.  Instead of using the support to take care of the kids, the mom is using it to pay for her own interests and if the kids want something they are told they can't have it unless dad pays for it.  Or, they routinely deny or interfere with the dad's custody time.  They routinely trash talk dad to the kids, etc.    Some of these games the ex-wife plays result in dad in jail or under restraining orders or having to drive hours for every visit because she made something up and got supervised visitation.  Dad may even be able to get in front of a judge to ask that he be granted make-up time since the ex-wife took the kids on the holiday or weekend that was supposed to be his without attempting to work it out with or offering make up time....and not only is denied the make up request, but child support gets increased and one or more other unreasonable demands get ordered and he has to pay her legal fees.  Eventually the demands get so onerous that the ex-wife is demanding you sign away your rights or she'll bury you even further. 

 

And through out this whole process the man is the one treated like the pond scum on the bottom of someone's shoe because of the sexist stereotype that any high conflict situation is because the man is the default abuser only seeking to continue his abusive hold on an ex-wife and the kids.

 

There are men who are going through situations every day in family courts all over the world.  I'd certainly be bitter if I went through that kind of trauma.  The family court system can be played like a fiddle by anyone who wants to play the games, men or women. 

 

Stefanie

[Bluegoat]

I haven't read through all the replies.

 

I think a lot of divorced people are very bitter.

 

I think there are probably some kinds of wrongs that are more often perpetrated on men than on women, and vicer versa.  That's a generalization, but there are certain behavioral tendencies among the sexes. 

 

I think it goes without saying that often there are issues on both sides - the man who complains a woman is always wanting him to supply more money might actually be a lazy bum and that is really what ticks her off.

 

I've more often seen women who seem to marry mainly to get someone to support them than the opposite, or who don't intend that but put a lot of pressure on about living standards.  There are some men that do this, but the social expectation for men to work seems stronger.

 

I think with the sex thing, part of it may be that a lot of women have less interest in sex when they are in the midst of child-bearing.  I think many men really do not understand this at all, they have no experience to compare that sort of hormonal change to.  And our society puts a lot of emphasis on the idea that people need to have access to sex all the time, and they don't really talk much about what to expect in long term relationships. 

 

I think in many cases the laws around child support and caring for kids are pretty unfair to men.  I've been shocked by what is required in cases I've heard of on several occasions.  For example, i know a man whose ex of a number of years is entitled to half his pension, now that he is retired, and he is also required to give her half of his income from the job he has taken.  She has her own job which she isn't required to divide.  Or cases where men lose their job but still muct pay the same support (how?  Who knows?)  I don't think it is strange that such things might make men feel bitter.