Hypothetically, you have a child with a very high IQ, but a learning disability that takes center stage...

[AimeeM]

I've posted before about my daughter and our concern about placing her on grade level when she goes back to school. Well, she is going back this upcoming fall. She is miserable at home and, while I will continue to homeschool her brothers, this is best for DD, at this season in her life.

 

Now, the issue. Her dyslexia tends to take center stage when it comes to academics. She is working about a year behind in language arts, pretty consistently. She's very good in math, but bare bones it. She is just... rather lazy about school work and pretty darn indifferent about it - never gets excited about anything other than science, when it comes to school work.

 

On that note, I do NOT think she can function, adequately, in the 7th grade next year at the private school; the principal has already suggested we hold her back.

 

I was talking to a friend earlier who, upon hearing we were considering retention, expressed confusion. She reminded me of something I forgot (because, again, with her laziness and her learning disability, it just slips my mind... completely) - Autumn has an exceptionally high IQ. I'm not getting into numbers... but it is exceptionally high. The reason we initially had her tested, years ago, was because of mild behaviour problems/daydreaming in class; the child psychologist we consulted with wanted a full IQ and psych assessment. It was determined that Autumn was... lazy and bored, lol.

 

Should this matter at all when determining grade placement for next year? No matter her IQ score, should it be taken into consideration when she appears to working AGAINST her own intelligence? If she can't function in her grade level, should that she is "exceptionally intelligent" matter a hoot? I'm thinking no; others think I'm doing her a disservice.

 

Me? I'm thinking I should ask the Hive because I know that I'm feeling stressed out and pretty down about sending her back next year, lol.

[kiwik]

Is she the kind of kid you can explain it to and get her to work with you?

[AimeeM]

Is she the kind of kid you can explain it to and get her to work with you?

Hmm.

A year ago I would have said yes. These days she's an eye rolling, hair flipping preteen who doesn't know WHY we make her work so hard - because it's terribly unfair :p

[Arcadia]

Should this matter at all when determining grade placement for next year? No matter her IQ score, should it be taken into consideration when she appears to working AGAINST her own intelligence? If she can't function in her grade level, should that she is "exceptionally intelligent" matter a hoot? I'm thinking no; others think I'm doing her a disservice..

 

 

If she was in public school, there should be accomodations (504, IEP) to help her stay at her grade level. Would her private school be able to accomodate her LD even if you place her in 6th grade instead of 7th? Would retaining eliminate the problem cause by the LD or would it be kicking the can down the road?

[AimeeM]

If she was in public school, there should be accomodations (504, IEP) to help her stay at her grade level. Would her private school be able to accomodate her LD even if you place her in 6th grade instead of 7th? Would retaining eliminate the problem cause by the LD or would it be kicking the can down the road?

 

Public school isn't an option for us for various reasons.

This private school (Catholic) has limited resources but is very willing to help make accommodations. Frankly, though, I do not think they would be wholly necessary; assuming I continue to work on her spelling at home (a la Apples and Pears), the school is using a similar writing program and she is working at the level she would need to be if we place her in grade 6. Her reading is fine - fluency is the only issue there and we find that using a dark card or paper to follow in her book helps there. I do not really need to make accommodations here for her and I do not anticipate it being an issue with her if she's placed in grade 6 instead of 7 next year. They are, however, willing to help in any way they can. One perk here is that the average class size in the middle school grades is 10-12 students and they plan to keep it that way.

[ocelotmom]

Holding a highly intelligent, lazy, bored child back is likely to increase their laziness and boredom. From a purely academic standpoint, maybe it will give her a little more time to catch up in language arts, but in general it's going to give her more opportunity to slide by with minimal effort. I agree that accommodations of her LD are more appropriate.

[Arcadia]

They are, however, willing to help in any way they can. One perk here is that the average class size in the middle school grades is 10-12 students and they plan to keep it that way.

 

With that class size, I would opt for 7th grade instead of holding her back. She might just rise to the challenge.

[Crimson Wife]

I'll be the voice of dissent. I think you should place your DD in the lower grade but try to get acceleration in the strong subjects. You need to place her at the level where she is actually working at, not where she'd be based on her IQ without the LD.

 

My little one is working on Kindergarten skills at home but there is no way she could function in a general ed Kindergarten class at this point (she's functioning about the same as a typical 2 1/2 to 3 y.o.) She has a January birthday so she misses the cutoff for this fall anyways (it used to be Dec. 2nd but the state is gradually moving it up). But even if she were technically old enough, I'd still hold off on K for another year. We don't have a formal IQ score for her yet, but she did some parts of the WPPSI as part of qualifying for a research study and she did extremely well on some of the non-verbal subtests.

[AimeeM]

I'll be the voice of dissent. I think you should place your DD in the lower grade but try to get acceleration in the strong subjects. You need to place her at the level where she is actually working at, not where she'd be based on her IQ without the LD.

 

My little one is working on Kindergarten skills at home but there is no way she could function in a general ed Kindergarten class at this point (she's functioning about the same as a typical 2 1/2 to 3 y.o.) She has a January birthday so she misses the cutoff for this fall anyways (it used to be Dec. 2nd but the state is gradually moving it up). But even if she were technically old enough, I'd still hold off on K for another year. We don't have a formal IQ score for her yet, but she did some parts of the WPPSI as part of qualifying for a research study and she did extremely well on some of the non-verbal subtests.

That is my feeling too.

The social aspect is another (major) reason I wanted to hold her back.

Because her birthday only BARELY makes the school cut off, she actually SOCIALIZES with children a grade below her... because the sports cut offs are often in July instead of August, and she MISSES that cut off. Her comfort zone, socially, is a grade below where she technically is.

 

I have a younger child like your own - he is almost 4 and will be doing kindergarten at home next year... but there is no way I'd put him in a regular kinder class; never mind that he is learning to read, add, and subtract, he could never conform to a kindergarten classroom because he is still only 3.

[Arcadia]

Her comfort zone, socially, is a grade below where she technically is.

 

If that is her comfort zone, than it would make sense to put her in 6th grade. I would prefer to put my own children with their age peers for school but their comfort zone is with older kids so what works for my kids won't work so well in your daughter's case.

[Rebecca VA]

I agree with Crimson Wife. I kept my daughter back a year when she started private school, and I'm so glad I did. She was still recovering from Lyme Disease. Socially, she was immature and just wasn't ready to mingle with her age-mates. She had never been in an actual brick-and-mortar school and had a lot to learn about how to function with teachers, classmates, and the whole system.

 

The schoolwork wasn't terribly challenging, but it still kept her on her toes. She was one of the top five students in her grade, but she wasn't the top one. The school was excellent about giving students opportunities to shine -- they had the kids participate in GeoBee, the local Spelling Bee, National History Day, mock trial club, an excellent music program, and tons of athletics. Her science teacher recommended her for a local girls' STEM competition. She earned several significant awards that helped her get into a selective high school.

 

In addition to her schoolwork, I had her work through Latin 3A through The Lukeion Project on weekends. (We used a recording of the class time.) Between her schoolwork and the greater social demands of being part of a very active group of schoolmates, she was very much challenged last year.

[Crimson Wife]

If she is socially immature and has a birthday close to the cutoff, I would definitely go with the lower grade placement. But do try to get her subject accelerated in math & science if at all possible so that she continues to be working at an appropriate level for those.

[Rebecca VA]

Agreed (again). I didn't mention that the private school I sent my daughter to offered three levels of math to the eighth-graders. There was also a more-challenging English class and a less-challenging English class.

[maize]

If she is socially immature and has a birthday close to the cutoff, I would definitely go with the lower grade placement. But do try to get her subject accelerated in math & science if at all possible so that she continues to be working at an appropriate level for those.

 

:iagree:

 

Based on what you have shared about her social comfort zone as well as academic performance, this sounds like a good option.

[lisabees]

I, too, would keep her in the "lower" grade level. As Rebecca said, there are usually several levels for each subject as students get closer to high school. It doesn't matter whether you are gifted or not. If you can handle the class, you can take the class.

 

I sent my dyslexic son back to school in 8th grade. The first two years were fine; tenth grade has been very difficult. The dyslexia is rearing its ugly head again. It is heartbreaking to see.

 

It sounds like you will have lots of flexibility with your dd's small private school. First and foremost, make her feel like she fits in and can be successful. It seems like that will happen in the "lower" grade.

[SKL]

Honestly, I would put her where she is socially, provided there will be some workaround for the learning issue. I might want to observe the classes before deciding where she would fit socially, because there is a lot of redshirting in private schools, so she might end up being the right age for grade 6 even if you do hold her back. But I think it would be torture to place a girl in a class that is below both her intellect and her maturity. Also, she might lose some of the laziness if she sees some value in keeping up with her peer group.

[EKS]

I agree with SKL in that I would put her where she would fit best socially.

[ocelotmom]

If she is socially immature and has a birthday close to the cutoff, I would definitely go with the lower grade placement. But do try to get her subject accelerated in math & science if at all possible so that she continues to be working at an appropriate level for those.

I agree that this could be a good approach, too. It sounds to me like she needs challenge in the areas where she excels, and support in the areas where she struggles. Simply holding her back a grade without accommodations for her LD or her giftedness is unlikely to provide either. But that could work if the school is willing to cooperate.

[Pen]

...

 

On that note, I do NOT think she can function, adequately, in the 7th grade next year at the private school; the principal has already suggested we hold her back.

 

...

 

 

I do not know your daughter nor the school you are going to send her to. All I have to go on is what you say. Both you and principal do not think she can do 7th grade there next year? That sounds significant. Doesn't it?

[AimeeM]

 

 

I do not know your daughter nor the school you are going to send her to. All I have to go on is what you say. Both you and principal do not think she can do 7th grade there next year? That sounds significant. Doesn't it?

 

The principal's suggestion was based only on her birthday and that *I* said she struggles with language arts - she never spoke with Autumn... and, in all fairness, this conversation with the principal took place over a year ago when the principal suggested I keep her back a year (though at the time that would have meant retaining in grade 5, not 6, or something like that, lol).

She has made progress this past year, but she still works consistently a year behind.

 

In talking with my husband, and realizing that laziness has a good bit to do with where she is academically, we're actually leaning more towards asking the principal about keeping her at grade level (rising 7th grader) and making some accommodations - allowing an ipad for reading literature (she does better with that), not grading spelling within writing, and lessening her homework load in writing, so that I can have time to continue IEW and Apples and Pears at home - if the homework load isn't lessened, there is no way I can continue with those programs and not have an overwhelmed child who does nothing but schoolwork until bedtime, lol.

 

We aren't enrolling until end of May, so I still have some time to decide what we'll do.

[Pen]

Maybe she could start in 7th then, and switch to 6th if 7th is too hard. What does she want to do? Does she have friends in either class?

[AimeeM]

Maybe she could start in 7th then, and switch to 6th if 7th is too hard. What does she want to do? Does she have friends in either class?

 

She doesn't have any friends at the school, but because the school is very small, she would not be willing to move down a grade if necessary (and frankly, I understand why - that would be a hard hit to take).

[Crimson Wife]

I'd personally be very leery of attributing struggles in a subject to "laziness" in a child with a known disability. That's like blaming a physically disabled child for not being able to keep up athletically with his/her able-bodied peers because of "laziness".

[AimeeM]

I'd personally be very leery of attributing struggles in a subject to "laziness" in a child with a known disability. That's like blaming a physically disabled child for not being able to keep up athletically with his/her able-bodied peers because of "laziness".

I'm not saying that her academics are behind solely because of her laziness - I'm saying that it certainly isn't helping. Not a day goes by when I'm not fighting tooth and nail against "never going to use this Mom!", "why does a doctor need to know about ancient rome???", or "I'd rather worry about this when I have to know it later", or (best yet) "this is so boring". Lol.

[Crimson Wife]

That sounds like fairly typical 'tween attitude to me. Ever since my DD started going through puberty, I've been getting the same kinds of complaints out of her.

 

Her big thing lately is that she wants to skip to 9th grade this fall (she's enrolled in 5th now) because the sooner she gets high school over with, the sooner she'll be able to decide for herself what courses to take. If I actually saw some evidence that she'd be willing to produce the output necessary for high school credit, I'd let her do it. But so far, the output she's been doing has been appropriate for her age rather than someone ready to start high school in August. The onus is on her to show me she's willing to do the work if she wants the credit for it.

[AimeeM]

That sounds like fairly typical 'tween attitude to me. Ever since my DD started going through puberty, I've been getting the same kinds of complaints out of her.

 

Her big thing lately is that she wants to skip to 9th grade this fall (she's enrolled in 5th now) because the sooner she gets high school over with, the sooner she'll be able to decide for herself what courses to take. If I actually saw some evidence that she'd be willing to produce the output necessary for high school credit, I'd let her do it. But so far, the output she's been doing has been appropriate for her age rather than someone ready to start high school in August. The onus is on her to show me she's willing to do the work if she wants the credit for it.

Lol. I hear similar from Autumn - she just wants to get middle and high school over with so there's nobody "lording over her". School this fall is to save our relationship - because one of is going to strangle the other soon...

[wapiti]

School this fall is to save our relationship - because one of is going to strangle the other soon...

 

Ah, yes. Having my dd12 in school this year has freed up some of my emotional energy to deal with one of my ds10s - even though he's in school too, he's a lot of work, and at least I'm not struggling with dd at the same time over schoolwork (please, please let these issues affect only one ds10 at a time :scared: ). I don't know what happened, but dd is suddenly so grown up, and yet is still a little girl. She still doesn't like my suggestions even when she *asks* for help (what does mom know), but we had a recent conversation that involved her contemplating some academic work over the summer because she could see the possible benefit for next year - I don't know whether that'll actually happen without my requiring it, but just that she even considered it for a moment tells me there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

With the age being so close to the cutoff, I think you could go either way, but I'd still be concerned about how they'd handle math. I'd probably go for 7th and cross my fingers. (I realize this may not be applicable because my dd's language processing glitch is a different and perhaps much smaller issue than what's going on with your dd, but I was surprised that dd ended up getting an award from her language arts teacher in the first trimester as one of the top students and probably the most enthusiastic one - where did that come from? Anyway, it's hard to predict how it'll all turn out and maybe she'll do much better than you think.)

[AimeeM]

Ah, yes. Having my dd12 in school this year has freed up some of my emotional energy to deal with one of my ds10s - even though he's in school too, he's a lot of work, and at least I'm not struggling with dd at the same time over schoolwork (please, please let these issues affect only one ds10 at a time :scared: ). I don't know what happened, but dd is suddenly so grown up, and yet is still a little girl. She still doesn't like my suggestions even when she *asks* for help (what does mom know), but we had a recent conversation that involved her contemplating some academic work over the summer because she could see the possible benefit for next year - I don't know whether that'll actually happen without my requiring it, but just that she even considered it for a moment tells me there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

With the age being so close to the cutoff, I think you could go either way, but I'd still be concerned about how they'd handle math. I'd probably go for 7th and cross my fingers. (I realize this may not be applicable because my dd's language processing glitch is a different and perhaps much smaller issue than what's going on with your dd, but I was surprised that dd ended up getting an award from her language arts teacher in the first trimester as one of the top students and probably the most enthusiastic one - where did that come from? Anyway, it's hard to predict how it'll all turn out and maybe she'll do much better than you think.)

 

I never believed it years ago when I was told I would get what I gave my own parents, around this age. Crap. One minute she's my normal goofy, fun loving little girl - the next minute she's giggling over Twilight, rolling her eyes, flipping her hair, and acting like I'm the most ignorant person to ever walk the planet. 'Course, only you guys believe me - everyone else sees her and asks how I could EVER lose my patience with such a perfectly behaved little girl.

 

And math is our concern. She should be entering Algebra 1 this fall (or maybe this winter if she hits any glitches in Horizons) - but between Math Mammoth 6 and Horizons Pre A, I really hesitate holding her back. As it is, I'm not sure this school offers Algebra 1 at all (and if they do, I'm certain it isn't until grade 8). Hoping we can work something out.

[kiana]

Is it going to be easier to get the school to give her advanced math or to work with her individually in english?

 

Remember that english affects all of the other subjects a lot more than math.

[8filltheheart]

 

The principal's suggestion was based only on her birthday and that *I* said she struggles with language arts - she never spoke with Autumn... and, in all fairness, this conversation with the principal took place over a year ago when the principal suggested I keep her back a year (though at the time that would have meant retaining in grade 5, not 6, or something like that, lol).

She has made progress this past year, but she still works consistently a year behind.

 

In talking with my husband, and realizing that laziness has a good bit to do with where she is academically, we're actually leaning more towards asking the principal about keeping her at grade level (rising 7th grader) and making some accommodations - allowing an ipad for reading literature (she does better with that), not grading spelling within writing, and lessening her homework load in writing, so that I can have time to continue IEW and Apples and Pears at home - if the homework load isn't lessened, there is no way I can continue with those programs and not have an overwhelmed child who does nothing but schoolwork until bedtime, lol.

 

We aren't enrolling until end of May, so I still have some time to decide what we'll do.

 

Does this school offer these sorts of accommodations? Many private Catholic schools will not b/c they are just not equipped to deal with LDs. I would be surprised if the will not require the same workload as other students in the class.

 

 

[AimeeM]

Is it going to be easier to get the school to give her advanced math or to work with her individually in english?

 

Remember that english affects all of the other subjects a lot more than math.

That's exactly why we decided that if the principal feels she should be held back, we will do so. They will make "reasonable" accommodations for her in language arts (and across the content subject), but we need to note that they aren't trained to work with learning differences (well, no more than any regular education teacher), so the accommodations are the best we can hope for out of this (and if they accommodate less homework, we can continue to work at home with her more individualized writing and spelling).

[AimeeM]

Does this school offer these sorts of accommodations? Many private Catholic schools will not b/c they are just not equipped to deal with LDs. I would be surprised if the will not require the same workload as other students in the class.

The schools here are very happy to give "reasonable accommodations". This school DOES (for a ridiculous fee) have an Arrowsmith program (for dyslexics). We aren't willing to shell out double tuition for a brand spankin' new program with absolutely no reviews (locally, at this program) - and I"m not even sure it's fully implemented yet actually; I only JUST heard of it, lol... and it's our parish school :p

What those accommodations are varies by school, I think, but when I last talked to the principal she appeared optimistic.

[wapiti]

That's exactly why we decided that if the principal feels she should be held back, we will do so. They will make "reasonable" accommodations for her in language arts (and across the content subject), but we need to note that they aren't trained to work with learning differences (well, no more than any regular education teacher), so the accommodations are the best we can hope for out of this (and if they accommodate less homework, we can continue to work at home with her more individualized writing and spelling).

In trying to come up with specific reasonable accommodations, it might be worth calling the 7th grade language arts teacher for specifics on the daily/weekly work load and how that breaks down with the different forms of homework - it may turn out to be more or possibly even less than you imagine. Ditto for science and history. There's a wide range of possible amounts and types of homework amongst schools and teachers at this level. If she needs to type, find out if they have a network she could print from.

It also seems you'd need to nail down the math angle at the same time. If they don't offer what she needs, I'd ask for independent study. That is our plan for 8th grade - for dd's school, it is not without precedent for an advanced student to take an on-line math class and/or work with one of the teachers over at the high school.

[8filltheheart]

 

The schools here are very happy to give "reasonable accommodations". This school DOES (for a ridiculous fee) have an Arrowsmith program (for dyslexics). We aren't willing to shell out double tuition for a brand spankin' new program with absolutely no reviews (locally, at this program) - and I"m not even sure it's fully implemented yet actually; I only JUST heard of it, lol... and it's our parish school :p

What those accommodations are varies by school, I think, but when I last talked to the principal she appeared optimistic.

 

I think what you may encounter is that "reasonable accommodations" will be things like the Ipad or extra time for tests. I do not believe not marking spelling or reducing workload is the norm and may not be considered "reasonable." They might be willing, but just in case, you might want to have a plan for if they aren't willing to follow those suggestions.