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Zero Retention: APD? ADHD?


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My question is about DD9: Homeschooled, no diagnosis of anything. History just about had both of us in tears yesterday.

 

Story of the World, Early Modern Times, 18 simple paragraphs about an emperor of

China collecting books into an official "set." 10 follow-up "comprehension"

questions at the end.

 

Here's how this afternoon went:

 

* Read the 18 paragraphs out loud to DD9.

 

I've already made the mistake of letting her sit with nothing to fiddle with.

She pays ZERO attention. So I've handed her Google Earth, zoomed in to the

Forbidden City, so she can wander around the city while listening.

 

* Can't answer a single question.

 

(Big brother, DS11, is champing at the bit, DYING to answer the questions,

attempting to hiss/whisper the answers to his little sister. Dude, Shhhh!) Fine.

Get out a whiteboard and two colors of pens and:

 

* Read the 18 paragraphs again, this time with DD9 next to me as I draw out

little stick figures and maps and symbols and ask "predictive questions to keep

student engaged," like, "Now what do you think the emperor will do?" Much

sketching and answering later....

 

* Can't answer any of the questions.

 

Now, DD9's happy solution is that I can tell her the answers and she

can repeat them for me so that I can write them down for her.

 

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

The main responses I've gotten are along a couple of main lines:

 

(A) That's too much information for her to process, you're asking too much.

I am rejecting that based on the fact that she can plow through a book herself with little to no issue, can read her own math lessons with a fair amount of success, and I read two chapters to her nightly from novels (the Percy Jackson series, Harry Potter, Hunger Games, City of Ember), and she can manage to retain THAT information.

 

(B) Maybe she doesn't care about the topic, you seem to care more than she does.

Uh...yeah. If it were up to her, she'd sit on the laptop all day and play Minecraft, using Skype to call all of her friends. I KNOW I care more about her education than she does. I frankly don't CARE if she doesn't find nouns thrilling, or if she'd rather play on the Wii than look at a cell. I homeschool because our school district is failing. (Average score on the state competency exams is in the 36th percentile. 50% graduation rate. Lost accreditation, been taken over by the state. Awesomesauce.)

 

I DO care about her learning something. Maybe I could give a pass on the whole Who-Care-About-The-Dead-Chinese-Emperor thing, but this a CONSTANT, and mainly for History. The skill of listening to something, and drawing out and remembering the salient details of what you just heard, seems to be a vitally important one.

 

I used to think there was something wrong with her

hearing, because she'd quote TV commercials all wrong and wouldn't respond to

our requests, but she scored 97% from a very good ENT/audiologist perspective.

 

Why can't she remember ANY of it? "I'm really not interested in it," she informs

me. Well...gee, welcome to school.

 

Is this CAPD? Is it ADHD? Is it stubborn-angry-you-can't-make-me?

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Story of the World, Early Modern Times, 18 simple paragraphs about an emperor of

China collecting books into an official "set." 10 follow-up "comprehension"

questions at the end.

 

(A) That's too much information for her to process, you're asking too much.

I am rejecting that based on the fact that she can plow through a book herself with little to no issue, can read her own math lessons with a fair amount of success, and I read two chapters to her nightly from novels (the Percy Jackson series, Harry Potter, Hunger Games, City of Ember), and she can manage to retain THAT information.

 

If I put myself in her shoes, I can see myself doing the same. *I* would not be able to sit through 18 paragraphs about an emperor of China collecting books :laugh:, but I am certain I would love to listen to Harry Potter.

 

Uh...yeah. If it were up to her, she'd sit on the laptop all day and play Minecraft, using Skype to call all of her friends. I KNOW I care more about her education than she does. I frankly don't CARE if she doesn't find nouns thrilling, or if she'd rather play on the Wii than look at a cell.

 

It does not have to be one extreme vs. another. You don't have to set it up as Minecraft vs. Chinese emperor. There are lots of options in between if you are willing to look.

 

I DO care about her learning something. Maybe I could give a pass on the whole Who-Care-About-The-Dead-Chinese-Emperor thing, but this a CONSTANT, and mainly for History. The skill of listening to something, and drawing out and remembering the salient details of what you just heard, seems to be a vitally important one.

 

If doing History formally is a constant battle, then maybe you can look for informal options through documentaries, Horrible History series, non-fiction picture books, etc. You can teach her the skills of listening and summarizing through other subjects that she is interested in. Or you can use fiction such as Harry Potter for teaching those skills. Or even in History, perhaps you can choose exciting topics. Honestly, I cannot see many 9 year olds who would sit through book collecting habits of ancient emperors. There are plenty of solutions you can think of once you can let go of the idea that there is only one right way to approach a subject or a topic.

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Have you ever tried the Charlotte Mason method of oral narration back to you? Read one paragraph and then have her tell it back to you. Read the next one. Have her tell it back again. Maybe after she gets good at this, you can move to 2 paragraphs at a time and increase gradually. But it could be that Story of the World just doesn't do it for her. I think in homeschooling you have to willing to be flexible and really teach to the child's learning style. If she's got audio processing problems, you probably want to work on that (via narration) but also not rely on reading to her to get the info across to her.

 

Another method is to read those 18 paragraphs yourself and then retell it her. This has a more informal, direct feeling to it that might help her tune in. So you could both be looking at google earth together while you are relating the story and then giving her a little tour or at least trying to figure out where the emperor lived and kept his books.

 

My attitude toward history in 4th grade (and lower grades as well) is that it is a first pass very often so they only really need to get a general sense of things. Now, if a particular topic really strikes their fancy, they can really delve into it of their own accord. My youngest daughter loves history via American Girls. My son, who is an aspie, is very much like your dd. But history appeals to him if we study the history of something, like the history of music, art, technology, medicine. He doesn't grasp a general historical approach much. It just doesn't stick. But really I think it is a big mistake to make a big deal out of history for a 9 year old. They have plenty of time to deepen their understanding in middle school, high school and college. It is not a hill to die on, imho.

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These are ideas I have seen, I have filed away in my mind.

 

One, give her tokens or sliders (like a penny or poker chip). She will use these to help her summarize. She slides a chip when she thinks of it and then slides it when she says it as a memory trigger. Probably starting smaller than 18 paragraphs... maybe to have her do a small summary more frequently with one chip, then at the end, she re-caps with all the chips.

 

Two, there are charts you can use, called SQL or another one I can't remember right now. It will be a template, with 3 columns and 3 rows. Going down are questions like, what do you know? What do you learn? What are 3 facts? Then the columns are: what you can fill in before reading, during reading, and after reading. These are completed "togething in class" by my son at public school in 2nd grade. They don't expect them to do more than one or two blanks on their own -- so it is a skill he is being taught without being expected to do it independently at first. In ones he has brought home, I ask him questions, he underlines the information, and then I help him transfer that to the boxes, then we use the boxes to answer 2 comprehension questions. (This is easy right now -- it will be two little paragraphs with one location and 3 facts, about stuff like a person who collect lizards and cares for them in 3 ways.)

 

Three, make a copy of the reading, and ask her to highlight a key fact or make a note to the side ---- stopping to give her time to do this.

 

Four, try to graphic organizers. My son also does this in school and a lot of kids here do it. Basically -- instead of taking notes in a column, you will provide a hand-out that has got bubbles on it, and facts go in the bubbles. For "compare and contrast," there are two big bubbles that overlap, and each bubble has a label, and then things that are common to both sides get written in the middle where the bubbles overlap. For "summary" there is usually a big bubble in the middle, with other bubbles around it. We just had one where the middle bubble was name of the story and author, and then side bubbles were things like "characters" and "clues" -- so it was easy for him to put a new character in the character bubble as we came to it, and then a new clue in the clue bubble as we came to it. There are other styles also, good for a certain style of wriitng.

 

Five, you can teach non-fiction types of writing. http://www.amazon.com/Teaching-Students-Read-Nonfiction-Grades/dp/0439376521#_ This link (if it does not work -- it is Amazon Wiley Blevins Non-Fiction) tells all/most of the non-fiction text structures in the free introduction. Things like: sequence, cause and effect, compare and contrast, etc. I have had this book from the library, and at this point, I have just used it to point things out when we are reading.

 

Six, pick a different piece of writing. Maybe she would do better with a book with lots of pictures and shorter bits of information (like the DK books). Maybe she would do better with a harder section if she is getting bored. Maybe she would do better starting with fiction and moving to non-fiction for background knowledge and to build interest. Maybe she would do better starting with non-fiction and moving to fiction to build background knowledge and interest. Maybe she would do better with a summary of the entire unit before starting any details. (These are all somewhat ideas from the back of Dyslexic Advantage, helpful to me, as I am very "go in order" and my son does not do best with going in order and learning from expository writng. He does better starting with DK style, to the point I pre-teach all his school units this way b/c he really needs it.)

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Get her her own copy of the book so that she can read along with you or have her read the material on her own and see if it makes a difference. Maybe she is more of a visual learner. I retain information (at least short term) when I read it myself, but totally zone out on lectures and audiobooks no matter how hard I try. We've played the SOTW audiobooks in my car scores of time, but I've only ever heard small bits of them, because while I want to listen, I will suddenly discover that I'm planning dinner or something else and haven't heard a thing.

 

Another thought would be to have her take notes. I have done that in the car when my dh has been driving and it is the only thing that keeps me engaged in listening.

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Take her to a neuropsych and get her thoroughly tested. Among other things she probably has slow processing speed.

 

You just described my Dd11 and history. Slow processing speed is just one of her issues, but it's an academic nightmare, until the teacher(s) know of it and work with it. DD11 simply CAN'T repeat anything back right after a lesson (used to get into a lot of trouble for not listening because she'd fidget and couldn't tell them what was just said). Ask her much later, however, even with no review, and she'd tell you all sorts of things, including the jokes the teacher used.

 

With dd11 her processing speed is so slow she does poorly on an end-of-chapter test. But the cumulative 8-chapter test after Christmas (which she studied very little for since I didn't make her) she did quite well on (the rest of her class had a harder time).

 

History is where the problem is most noticeable, probably because her ADD factors in, but spelling takes time, too. If we don't get started the weekend before the class (at least) she won't be able to regurgitate it back by the time of the spelling test.

 

This doesn't mean she learns slowly, just that her brain takes more time to file things properly for later retrieval. This has become one of my main arguments now when extended family challenges our decision to switch to home schooling after this current school year. I won't have to stay on a schedule of testing -- if I choose to administer a test I can time it for much later, when her brain has had time to sort things out. And I can make some on-going "assessments" while we go over stuff to tweak how to teach her certain other things (routine anything -- she hates learning them, but relies so heavily on predictable steps for difficult or undesired tasks).

 

Right now give your child some slack, and DON'T compare her to ANYONE else. She's already feeling pretty bad and thinking it's her fault she can't do what her brother can do. I have a dd8 who is quicker and loves to jump in first. Very disheartening to her elder sis.

 

Try finding ways to make the lessons more active (which you already started to do). Activities around everything will help some, since they engage other parts of the brain. And make a habit of referring back to stuff you learned a few days and weeks ago -- systematic review not only helps freshen things, but may show you the time frame she needs to be able to tell it all back to you.

 

It can take months to get that testing appointment, but be sure you get a good neuropsych and not someone with less qualifications. The first time we had dd11 tested the person testing her got visibly frustrated and angry and blamed dd to me, in front if her, for not cooperating. When we had her retested some years later by a fully qualified neuropsych we found out that dd COULDN'T maintain attention and wasn't uncooperative at all. I strongly regret the time gap, and wish we would have gone with the better testing place in the first place. We chose poorly the first time because she was local, and someone at the school recommended her. But it turns out she wasn't really qualified, despite the cost.

 

Good luck, and lots of hugs to you all.

 

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Is her reading level such that she can read it to you? Or trade off reading between you, her, and big brother?

 

I think sometimes read-alouds are at the wrong pace for a child. That is, their brain wants input either slower or faster, and the audio input doesn't provide it so it doesn't stick as well. I know that in high school, I had a couple of teachers who I retained nothing or close to nothing from the lectures, because it seemed like they were talking at half speed or something and my brain would start wandering, but I could read the book and remember fine. The topic wasn't so engrossing to make me able to alter my desired pace to match what the speaker was delivering content at. But if "All Things Considered" had an interesting to me topic, I'd have no trouble retaining it from listening alone.

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Get her her own copy of the book so that she can read along with you or have her read the material on her own and see if it makes a difference. Maybe she is more of a visual learner. I retain information (at least short term) when I read it myself, but totally zone out on lectures and audiobooks no matter how hard I try. We've played the SOTW audiobooks in my car scores of time, but I've only ever heard small bits of them, because while I want to listen, I will suddenly discover that I'm planning dinner or something else and haven't heard a thing.

 

Another thought would be to have her take notes. I have done that in the car when my dh has been driving and it is the only thing that keeps me engaged in listening.

 

 

This is me. I can retain it if I read it but not if you read it to me. My dd is the opposite. She is an auditory learner - she comprehends and retains better listening than reading. I am visual, and I have to see it.

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I've already made the mistake of letting her sit with nothing to fiddle with.

She pays ZERO attention. So I've handed her Google Earth, zoomed in to the

Forbidden City, so she can wander around the city while listening.

 

Having play putty or another "fidget" item is completely different than having a screen in front of you. I don't know many children that would choose active listening of history over fooling around (even with an educational goal in mind) on an ipad.

 

Is she not a strong reader? I ask because you mentioned reading a few chapters to her each night. If she is capable of reading the history stories, I highly suggest letting her read along with you. As mentioned, some people really do learn better when they have a visual to look at.

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Sounds like she's a visual learner. Stop reading aloud and give her the book. She might not even like history for that matter. Give her clear instructions on exactly what you want her to do with it (1 level paragraph outline, then answer the 4 questions) and walk away.

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If she's only having this problem with history, that would cast great doubt on there being an LD. Personally, I'd guess the read-aloud is too long (far too long - 18 paragraphs? eek!) or too boring - potentially both. If it were an LD, it could be anything (language processing/comprehension, attention, auditory processing, etc. etc.).

 

What are your goals for the read-aloud? I'd be sure to focus on skills (summarizing/narration) rather than content; IMO skills are far more important for elementary students. Have you used WWE? I vaguely recall that those passages would be a lot shorter than 18 paragraphs. I'd go with something much, much shorter - even starting with one paragraph - and work on summarizing/narrating. If your goal is for her to remember the content long-term, I'd look for another way to deliver it (might her learning style lean toward visual-spatial?).

 

Eta, try what Elizabeth suggests!

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Double ditto what wapiti said. Not everything that is different is an LD. Sure there could be a working memory issue. But really sometimes people are just different. There is such an OVER-emphasis on history on this board. It really does members of History-Haters Aloud (HHA) a disservice. I've been a member of HHA since 3rd grade when my mother started dragging me and my brother over the countryside of VA to see every historical site known to mankind. I've been to the places, worked in a museum for a summer, taught my dd for years, nuts even mentored her to state (so far) in National History Day. I'm STILL a member of HHA. And when you couple that with the wrong modality for presentation, you just have a MESS.

 

Reading aloud history turns it into an auditory narrative mess. Some people are better with visual, conceptual presentations, charts, lists, organization. I'm killer at taking something complex, wrapping my brain around it, and turning it into a chart or synthesis. History is inherently infinite (in depth and directionality/time). You can't wrap your brain around it, and instruction at this level is almost never conceptual or leading to synthesis. There's no WAY for some kids to interact with that. Doesn't mean they're disabled. Just means they're different. I studied a whole bunch of languages in college, linguistics, etc. and was awesome. All the history classes I had to take, oh dear, another story. ;)

 

You know sometimes the best cure IS to go ahead and get evals. I don't know what you're dealing with, but a bit of testing that includes IQ might relieve your fears or clarify things. I think the Woodcock Johnson has an IQ component, doesn't it? Then you'd get some working memory scores, etc. too. Information is your friend in sorting through things. Might set your mind at ease. Or there's a learning styles assessment HSBC sometimes gets a deal on for just $5 that is supposed to be good.

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My daughter has very little retention from anything we do involving her listening to something. We had her tested and she shows signs of CAPD. I have had to change how we do things but at least now I have an idea of how to help. I do not expect her to get anything out of read alouds. If she were my only child, I would quit completely because all she hears is blah, blah, blah, and is bored. I do not read her instructions. I have her read them silently to herself and then she reads them out loud and explains to me. I give her visual instructions. Instead of telling her how to do math, I do more showing. I use the white board more and have her draw pictures. This is new to me and has been difficult to come up with alternative ways to help her, but I'm seeing progress.

 

What kind of test did the audiologist do? My DD passes a hearing test just fine. My DS who actually has hearing aids does not have similar issues and didn't present this way even before he got his hearing aids. It's a very different thing.

 

For my DD, it presents most obviously in that she just does not make sense. She's not saying what she thinks she's saying and she's not hearing what she thinks she's hearing. We've learned that when she isn't making sense, we need to clarify whether she's not saying what she thinks she's saying or not hearing what she thinks she's hearing.

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My suspicion is that she is not an auditory learner. Ds10 is like your dd. When I really want something to stick, I have him read it to himself. However, auditory skills are important, too. So my suggestions for strengthening those skills are basically the same as pp have posted. The Charlotte Mason approach to narration has helped ds make huge gains in his ability to retain what he hears. Start with 1 paragraph and have her retell it- not summarize, not answer comp questions. Slowly add paragraphs to stretch out those skills. IME retelling is the best way to train auditory learning skills. Ds hated this at first. To keep your dd from loathing history, you might want to separate out auditory training from history. I used Aesop's fables and called the subject storytelling. And definitely do not give her anything visual while she's listening. Stick with tactile.

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Just to add to what Sassenach is explaining, there can be *reasons* underlying why the person isn't retaining from the auditory. Yes there can be an LD or CAPD. You can also have someone who, ironically enough, has a *vision* issue and isn't *visualizing*. If you have someone who's VSL, they should be getting mental pictures. If they have developmental vision issues and aren't, then you back up and work on visualization as a route to improving their listening comprehension. Go figure.

 

I work around it by writing down everything. I write down EVERYTHING I listen to that I want to remember. (names at parties, you name it) But that's something you can't enforce on a young dc.

 

You can also try using an auditory presentation with other materials and see what happens. Then you start to sort out whether it's an issue with *all* auditory or just history or more specifically just SOTW. Some people don't even like SOTW.

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I don't think that either of my oldest two homeschooled students (ages 10 and 12) could listen to 18 paragraphs and then answer a series of questions. We do history more informally, involving reading and discussing. I have one child who learns best by hearing information, either read aloud by him or read aloud by me. Reading it silently is not as effective. So I would look into your dd's learning style, as others have stated, and adapt your teaching methods to it. It also sounds like this has become a power struggle between you, which never ends well until the parent steps out. In your shoes, I would do what OhElizabeth suggested. (giving the assignment and walking away) My goals with history at this stage are exposure to breed familiarity when this topic appears again, and piquing the child's interest to lead to further exploration. We do a lot of discussion. For instance, when I read about the Black Plague last week, my three youngest kids engaged in an interesting discussion about the morality of taking people's lands, homes, etc. after they had died. I paused in the reading and asked, "What do you think should have been done in this situation? What would you do?" Then I let them each give their opinions. There are no right or wrong answers, as this is an opinion issue, but open-ended questions like this lead to building layers of critical thinking and moral development onto the history lessons. We don't do worksheets or answer any questions other than the off-the-cuff discussion questions I bring up. This method is not for everyone, but we are having a blast, enjoying history and no one is stressed so it may be something you can look into to break out of the negative cycle you are in with your dd and history. (Please excuse the lack of paragraph breaks - IE won't allow it.)

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I don't do well with being "read to". I just tend to lose focus (not really in an ADD way, I don't think, but maybe :p ) Also, someone keeping up a steady stream of information doesn't give me time to digest. 18 paragraphs would leave me clueless.

 

Can she do a) fewer paragraphs at a time (even if you do all 18 in a day, can she do maybe 6 sets of 3 or 3 sets of 6? Read, summarize, read, summarize...) and/or B) can SHE try reading them to you? I say this because I retain best when I'm OUTPUTTING the information. If I read aloud MYSELF or write it down as I read/hear it, I will almost always have a good recall of the information. I wouldn't do well with reading 18 paragraphs silently, either.

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Can she focus while moving around the room? If I have my 9 yr old sit, he CAN'T listen (he does try). When he spins and walks around the room he seems to hear EVERY word I read and can retell the main points of what I was reading. It seems like he has to focus so hard on sitting that he can't focus on what he should be focusing on. When he moves he can focus, so I read and he listens while moving around. We also can't do more than a page or I completly lose him. We do notebooking for history and we read a little then discuss and read some more and discuss more then they work on their notebooking page while I finish reading the last couple of paragraphs.

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My daughter has very little retention from anything we do involving her listening to something. We had her tested and she shows signs of CAPD. I have had to change how we do things but at least now I have an idea of how to help. I do not expect her to get anything out of read alouds. If she were my only child, I would quit completely because all she hears is blah, blah, blah, and is bored. I do not read her instructions. I have her read them silently to herself and then she reads them out loud and explains to me. I give her visual instructions. Instead of telling her how to do math, I do more showing. I use the white board more and have her draw pictures. This is new to me and has been difficult to come up with alternative ways to help her, but I'm seeing progress.

 

What kind of test did the audiologist do? My DD passes a hearing test just fine. My DS who actually has hearing aids does not have similar issues and didn't present this way even before he got his hearing aids. It's a very different thing.

 

For my DD, it presents most obviously in that she just does not make sense. She's not saying what she thinks she's saying and she's not hearing what she thinks she's hearing. We've learned that when she isn't making sense, we need to clarify whether she's not saying what she thinks she's saying or not hearing what she thinks she's hearing.

 

 

I'm with you Paige. The OP says she was checked by an ENT and audiologist and they said her dd was fine, but it really doesn't sound like a full evaluation for CAPD was done. For that she would have had HOURS of testing in sound proof room, probably broken up into two sessions, AFTER a full hearing evaluation.

 

Paige, you capture CAPD so well, and picked up what the OP said about her dd not making sense of TV commercials. The TV thing would be a huge indicator of CAPD for me because the misunderstanding is happening during a time where there is interest. She's engaged but she's still getting it wrong. That was the big clincher for me when I decided to get a full CAPD evaluation done.

 

When kids with CAPD have to listen for a long time or in a noisy environment, they hear "blah, blah, blah," or as my dd says, "Charlie Brown's parents" and it's boring and exhausting. The OP should drop the long readings and go ahead and use all the strategies that the other poster's have suggested.

 

I agree with everyone who said that an NP eval is a good idea, but I you'll still definitely need a FULL auditory processing evaluation with a pediatric audiologist familiar with CAPD. Our NP could never have caught dd's auditory processing disorder because she does not have problems in quiet rooms with only person speaking.

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My (non-ADHD) son and I (probably ADHD but not hyperactive) are not at all auditory learners. Part of it for me is that my hearing is okay but not great, and so I never cultivated listening as a big skill. I learn by seeing, and my son seems to as well. My DD, my DH, and my 4yo son (some of whom are ADHD hyperactive) are very auditory learners; they follow audio books well, and they remember things we read to them very easily. When it comes to reading to DS1, we need to stop frequently and make sure he knows what's going on (but when we've done so, he's really enjoyed even complicated things like Treasure Island and The Hobbit at age 4-5).

 

For your child, I would do the following:

-Have her hearing tested if you haven't already, and have an ENT rule out any issues.

-Read a paragraph or two at a time, and have her narrate/answer questions about just that small portion. Build up to longer sections.

-Try a different book; maybe SOTW just isn't for her.

-Give her some things to listen for -- names of kings, two facts about a city, stuff like that. Maybe even write them down for her.

-Let her draw or fidget while listening.

-Try something like WWE; this year, DS1 has done WWE2, where I read a passage to him and then help him answer questions about the passage. The guided narration has really helped him learn to focus and listen.

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Does she do Google Earth when you read Harry Potter?

 

We love SOTW here, but do not require question answering or narrations on it at all. OTOH, if someone is engaged in something else, like Google Earth, I don't see how they can have brain attuned to SOTW. I second letting her do her own reading --aloud if needed for making sure she can read it-- and maybe with a pencil to mark important parts to make what she does more active--rather than you reading while she does other stuff. Sounds like a waste of your time and energy.

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...

 

 

 

 

Why can't she remember ANY of it? "I'm really not interested in it," she informs

 

 

 

me. Well...gee, welcome to school.

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

That does sound like the answer. Isn't interested, isn't paying attention.

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