S/O Talk me out of Waldorf: Art Thread

[Pen]

Spinning off from the other thread in re possibly guiding an art experience here or elsewhere after getting in touch with SWB:

 

Art interest? What has worked or not worked for you in past, and why/why not? Child ages and experience? Parental experience? Materials on hand? Or what you can get (that is keeping in mind cost, and so on)? To the extent that seasons may be relevant, what season is it now where you are? (Where I am it is just barely getting into spring...first daffodils in bloom, but not yet the flowering trees.)

 

If I did do a book on this would you be willing to let your questions, problems and concerns become a part of it? Would you be willing to have art as done by you or your child become a part of it?

 

If another website would need to be started for this, does anyone interested have experience in setting up a simple, inexpensive website?

[Hunter]

Nice idea for a thread. I'm realizing that to discuss Waldorf in one thread, is like talking about classical education in one thread.

[freeindeed]

I am very interested in the art aspect of Waldorf. My dd12 loves to paint already, so she'll be thrilled. I am still trying to help dd5 become interested in coloring and painting-her significant needs make everything challenging. Ds9 is not necessarily an art lover, but given the tools and instruction, I believe he would really enjoy it. I would love to learn how to incorporate art in all the subjects. So far I'm finding that to be most difficult in the area of mathematics. I have watercolors and nice oil paints, as well as beeswax crayons. I also have a couple of watercolor sketch pads. I purchased these things through Oak Meadow. It is full-on spring here now, but we will move quickly into summer (south Alabama.) I am definitely willing to share my questions and problems, as well as my children's work. I share things on my blog, so it's no problem. :)

I don't know much about setting up websites, except for blogs. Thanks!

[xixstar]

You picked out a topic I wanted to dive into more after that thread but hadn't yet started researching. Will be paying close attention, thank you.

[silver]

I recently bought this book and plan to work through it along with my son. It gives examples of the work to do, but isn't good at the "step by step" for each lesson. I would love an affordable resource that talked about the methods in step by step detail for homeschool parents that have no experience with Waldorf.

 

ETA: My son will be starting 1st grade this summer (we school year round). We have watercolors in a tube (two of each of the primary colors that seem like they match the waldorf suggestions); some of the thicker, textured watercolor paper; and some nicer-than-what-comes-with-crayola-paint, but still cheap brushes.

[Pen]

I recently bought this book and plan to work through it along with my son. It gives examples of the work to do, but isn't good at the "step by step" for each lesson. I would love an affordable resource that talked about the methods in step by step detail for homeschool parents that have no experience with Waldorf.

 

ETA: My son will be starting 1st grade this summer (we school year round). We have watercolors in a tube (two of each of the primary colors that seem like they match the waldorf suggestions); some of the thicker, textured watercolor paper; and some nicer-than-what-comes-with-crayola-paint, but still cheap brushes.

 

 

 

Hi, Thanks for pointing out the existence of that book, since I do not want to spend time and energy on what already exists--or to "reinvent the wheel/" It was not around when I last had checked for such things. I will order it.

 

Maybe it will be clear to me when it comes, but what is missing for you when you say the "step-by-step" detail, since it looks like other customer comments seem to think it has steps in detail? Have you been able to start at all, or are you stymied?

 

Or maybe, if I do something like this at all, this book now has what is needed for Waldorf art, but I might instead address myself to the more eclectic methods that my homeschooling has actually ended up using. Or more specifically address myself to art as a centering discipline and how it can be made so for both the parent and the child, rather than having art be too hard to manage.

 

Meanwhile, I sent a message to the administrators asking if it is okay to use the forum for this and also asking if maybe an "art workshop" could be set up as a subforum, as exists for writing.

[Pen]

I am very interested in the art aspect of Waldorf. My dd12 loves to paint already, so she'll be thrilled. I am still trying to help dd5 become interested in coloring and painting-her significant needs make everything challenging. Ds9 is not necessarily an art lover, but given the tools and instruction, I believe he would really enjoy it. I would love to learn how to incorporate art in all the subjects. So far I'm finding that to be most difficult in the area of mathematics. I have watercolors and nice oil paints, as well as beeswax crayons. I also have a couple of watercolor sketch pads. I purchased these things through Oak Meadow. It is full-on spring here now, but we will move quickly into summer (south Alabama.) I am definitely willing to share my questions and problems, as well as my children's work. I share things on my blog, so it's no problem. :)

I don't know much about setting up websites, except for blogs. Thanks!

 

 

 

Well, you are ahead of me--I don't know how to set up a blog, and that might be a format that would work better than here. Could you PM me with hints about how to start up a blog, or where to go to learn how? Thanks!

[Farrar]

I'm not totally sure what you're asking. Do you mean what has worked for people in teaching art or specifically for teaching it in a Waldorf style?

 

We just keep inspiration books (Art Lab for Kids, Drawing Lab, Usborne Big Book of Things to Draw, Mark Kistler books, Nature's Art Box, etc.) on hand and decent materials on hand (proper papers, watercolors, oil pastels, decent pencils, charcoal pencils, fine tip marker pens, and also crafting supplies). And that's pretty much it. But I don't buy into Waldorf's approach for art or writing. Too formulaic.

[silver]

I didn't feel that I had a solid understanding of how to prepare the paint and paper for wet on wet watercolor from just the book. After searching out some blogs, I think I can do it. But the book seems more geared as "Okay, here are the colors for this lesson, you're set up, so let's get started."

 

I'm a very visual learner, so I guess having some pictures of "works in progress" is what I'm looking for. There are lots of finished product pictures, which is very helpful. In the drawing sections (starting with class six), there are "work in progress" photos included, which really let you see how it comes together. I think most of what I'm wishing for is some pictures like that in the painting sections so that I can see what is going to happen with the colors. I've never done wet on wet watercolor and although I have a little understanding, I'd like to see the steps rather than just read them in the way they're written. I'm not sure if it's waldorf, the translation (this book wasn't originally written in English), or the author's writing style, but the directions have a certain feel to them that say, a cookie recipe, would not.

[freeindeed]

 

 

 

Well, you are ahead of me--I don't know how to set up a blog, and that might be a format that would work better than here. Could you PM me with hints about how to start up a blog, or where to go to learn how? Thanks!

 

I sent you a message. Did you get it?

[Pen]

I sent you a message. Did you get it?

 

 

Got it! Thank you!

 

I have to wait till I'm at the library where I can get a high speed connection and then will do that tutorial.

 

(I also have to do my taxes first...)

[stripe]

Oh, I found that book at my library!

[Pen]

I didn't feel that I had a solid understanding of how to prepare the paint and paper for wet on wet watercolor from just the book. After searching out some blogs, I think I can do it. But the book seems more geared as "Okay, here are the colors for this lesson, you're set up, so let's get started."

 

I'm a very visual learner, so I guess having some pictures of "works in progress" is what I'm looking for. There are lots of finished product pictures, which is very helpful. In the drawing sections (starting with class six), there are "work in progress" photos included, which really let you see how it comes together. I think most of what I'm wishing for is some pictures like that in the painting sections so that I can see what is going to happen with the colors. I've never done wet on wet watercolor and although I have a little understanding, I'd like to see the steps rather than just read them in the way they're written. I'm not sure if it's waldorf, the translation (this book wasn't originally written in English), or the author's writing style, but the directions have a certain feel to them that say, a cookie recipe, would not.

 

 

 

Okay. That will probably become more clear when the book arrives.

 

One problem could be that the book description sounded like it might be set up primarily for Waldorf teachers, where there would be able to be space relatively dedicated to art, as well as some background on what to do from their training programs, so that perhaps the book is a reminder.

 

At home, for a lot of us (I do know some people with magnificent home classroom areas, but I am not one of those-- I am one of those with a very small house where activities must needs use the same space as each other), we do not have an area that can be dedicated to art, so figuring out how to keep things so that the set-up and clean up at art time are not overwhelming becomes a key that is probably not even mentioned in most books.

 

For example, for wet on wet set up (or for that matter for wetting the paper to stretch it for wet on dry) Ideally one would have a water trough larger than the paper one wants to use and a table for that which is different than the table where one will paint, yet close by. I certainly do not have that luxury, and am, as a reality rather than an ideal in a book or classroom, reduced to either using the bathtub to wet the paper, or else to using a sponge to sponge on water from a bowl.

 

Have you got the paper wetting and paint set up worked out now though?

 

My idea had been to try to figure out what people in reality actually have, rather than an ideal of what they might have, and suggest ways to work with that.

 

However, as you are about to begin 1st in summer, I would suggest a few things. The first is to get started now with just exploring single colors of the primary colors, if you have not done that. In part this would be to cover what would have been done in K, and in part it is to start getting used to the materials, and seeing if you need to adjust those.

 

You said your brush quality is not fantastic: I would say that the brush quality is not hugely important at this stage as long as it is not frustrating and dropping hairs all over. But the size is important. It should have a big enough handle (both the length and the thickness) to be easy for a young child to grip, and the brush end should allow plenty of paint to be applied at once (an inch across, or even an inch and a half is less frustrating than something fine intended for detail work). The general rule is to not let the brushes stand in the water (it messes up the tips) nor to let water or paint go past the ferrule (where the handle is attached), but if you have a hake brush which is sewed rather than glued together, you can let it soak in the water (but still try to only get paint about halfway up the bristles or it becomes very hard to clean). At that stage, we had a single $6 child use brush with a long and thick round wooden handle and bristles around an inch wide and somewhat longer than they were wide.

 

My son also practiced "painting" with plain water and a house painting brush on the outside of the house, painting away dust and leaving what looked like a fresh painted surface. (But not actual paint on his brush.) It helped get the feel of painting. That is from the eclectic approach, not especially Waldorf.

 

A reasonably thick paper that will hold up to watercoloring and wetness is good. However, the very textured unpressed (if that is what you meant by textured) watercolor paper is hard to use, IMO. My favorite general purpose watercolor paper ended up being a Fabriano cold press 90 lbs=200g/sq.m which came in a 9x12 pad that I found on sale at a local art store. In b&m school in 1st, they were using a cheaper, thinner, even smoother textured paper, in much larger sheets. Larger sheets would be nice for a younger child, if you can manage that given space, expense and so on. Hot press paper does not hold the watercolor well in a Waldorf style, though it works well for detail work like a botanical illustrator might want.

 

The Fabriano paper was tough enough that it could be wet a lot, scrubbed on, washed off, rewet, and so on, so that there could be attention to the process. I found it a forgiving not a fussy paper, if that makes sense. With clay also, I looked for something that was fairly forgiving and could be worked a lot, something that again allowed a lot of attention to the learning process, rather than, say, an expensive fine porcelain clay that would quickly start cracking if worked with long, and used a white clay that was easier to clean and would not cause stains easily like a red clay would. This is again, part of what I found for an eclectic approach and one which helped art to be a centering, calming activity for both parent and child, not necessarily a Waldorf art matter.

[mhaddon]

I don't buy into the full Waldorf method either. It is way too complicated and I feel sometimes it can take away in some areas. I think that exploration with art is wonderful, but at some point formal lessons should begin. I love Drawing with children. I feel it has the right way to "teach" art. We have a large amount of art materials on hand. I also love pinterest for ideas on what to do. I have a few blogs I love, as well as Usborne books, Kistler drawing school, and a full pinterest board with pictures for the kids to look at and draw from. Mostly things found in nature.

[Pen]

I am very interested in the art aspect of Waldorf. My dd12 loves to paint already, so she'll be thrilled. I am still trying to help dd5 become interested in coloring and painting-her significant needs make everything challenging. Ds9 is not necessarily an art lover, but given the tools and instruction, I believe he would really enjoy it. I would love to learn how to incorporate art in all the subjects. So far I'm finding that to be most difficult in the area of mathematics. I have watercolors and nice oil paints, as well as beeswax crayons. I also have a couple of watercolor sketch pads. I purchased these things through Oak Meadow. It is full-on spring here now, but we will move quickly into summer (south Alabama.) I am definitely willing to share my questions and problems, as well as my children's work. I share things on my blog, so it's no problem. :)

I don't know much about setting up websites, except for blogs. Thanks!

 

 

 

Sounds like you are well set up already as to paint and paper and crayons. Do you have brushes? What are the problems other than the special needs for dd5? Have you tried beeswax modeling for dd5? Have you tried anything like what I mentioned for my ds of a housepainting brush and just plain water? And have you tried any single color painting with dd5 or ds9? Are there samples of what the various children are doing on your blog?

[freeindeed]

 

 

Sounds like you are well set up already as to paint and paper and crayons. Do you have brushes? What are the problems other than the special needs for dd5? Have you tried beeswax modeling for dd5? Have you tried anything like what I mentioned for my ds of a housepainting brush and just plain water? And have you tried any single color painting with dd5 or ds9? Are there samples of what the various children are doing on your blog?

 

Yes, we have brushes of all kinds. My dd5 is reluctant to try anything new. She wouldn't even dye eggs yesterday. She has beeswax crayons, but we haven't tried beeswax modeling. I would like to, though. How expensive are the materials? I also haven't tried single color painting, but since you mentioned it, I plan to try it today. :)

Also, there are samples of my children's work on my blog. My dd12 is quite the budding artist, so a lot of the drawings and paintings are hers. Thank you.

[Pen]

PS particularly to FreeIndeed, but also somewhat general:

 

Especially for a special needs child, keep in mind "less is more".

 

As where you are it is full on spring, and also because Yellow is supposed to be a royal color of China, so maybe that would be special for dd5, and perhaps for dd12 if she is studying ancient history right now, I'd consider an exploration of just yellow. It does not even have to be paint at first, but a yellow something to look at and consider the color: what its qualities are, how it makes you feel, what the color seems to want to do... This would be fine for olders and adults too. Obviously this can be very personal and individual and also differ according to cultures as with the China having yellow be royal. While in Rome the royal color may have been purple.

 

When I did an exercise like this with my son, I learned that red, which is my favorite color, often, and for me is a warm and cozy color, or an energy enhancing color in the way it feels to me, was for him an angry color and a dangerous feeling color and a scary color. It was helpful to know that a color that makes me feel good, made him feel bad. This changed over time, and at an older age, he no longer has the same feelings about red as he did when younger. I think that such simple seeming investigations into color can be good to repeat at various times.

 

ETA: This crossed with your message, but seems relevant anyway.

 

I do not know the price of the beeswax modeling wax. We have a Waldorf Teacher Training program nearby with a little store where I got a few packs as Christmas gifts some years ago, and used them till they got too full of gunk or lost and then did not replace them. NB: Do not leave these in a hot car. I learned that the hard way.

 

They were fairly expensive in terms of price per amount as I recall, sort of like the beeswax crayons are, but one does not need much. I would probably keep it in my control until an art time if I wanted it to last better. But my ds liked shaping things with them, and that was fine with me at the time.

[silver]

Have you got the paper wetting and paint set up worked out now though?

I haven't tried it yet, but from some videos and blogs I think I know what to do. I think I'm going to use a large baking pan I have to submerge the paper. I don't have a special paint board, but I read somewhere that a melamine board from Home Depot would work as long as I sand the rough edges.

 

However, as you are about to begin 1st in summer, I would suggest a few things. The first is to get started now with just exploring single colors of the primary colors, if you have not done that. In part this would be to cover what would have been done in K, and in part it is to start getting used to the materials, and seeing if you need to adjust those.

 

The book actually starts out with that. The first year projects start out with working with just one color. Then you work with a second color by itself. Then you work with those two together. Then you do a 3rd color. Then you work with two colors again. The years ends with working with all three colors together, but still doing abstract painting to learn how the colors mix into new colors and to get a feel for the warmth and coolness of the colors. The other years have activities to make paintings to go along with the stories being done in class (so folk stories, Old Testament stories, etc).

 

You said your brush quality is not fantastic: I would say that the brush quality is not hugely important at this stage as long as it is not frustrating and dropping hairs all over. But the size is important. It should have a big enough handle (both the length and the thickness) to be easy for a young child to grip, and the brush end should allow plenty of paint to be applied at once (an inch across, or even an inch and a half is less frustrating than something fine intended for detail work).

Hmm, my brush may not be big enough then. the biggest one is 5/8" with a flat edge. It's definitely not a detail brush (although I have those that he has used for painting soap carvings he's done)--but it is on the smaller side.

 

A reasonably thick paper that will hold up to watercoloring and wetness is good. However, the very textured unpressed (if that is what you meant by textured) watercolor paper is hard to use, IMO. My favorite general purpose watercolor paper ended up being a Fabriano cold press 90 lbs=200g/sq.m which came in a 9x12

 

What I meant by textured is that it isn't smooth the way printer paper is. It's labeled as watercolor paper (rather than the cheaper paint/marker paper we've bought at Target before). One side is slightly textured the other is smooth--so the texture is probably pressed into the paper. It's pretty thick--I'd say it feels heavier than the 110lb card stock I have. Would that be too heavy?

[Pen]

I haven't tried it yet, but from some videos and blogs I think I know what to do. I think I'm going to use a large baking pan I have to submerge the paper. I don't have a special paint board, but I read somewhere that a melamine board from Home Depot would work as long as I sand the rough edges.

 

I would think that would be true. I've not tried it. My son and I have sensitivities to all sorts of materials and I try to avoid melamine for that reason. But I expect it would work fine. And if you have a baking pan larger than your paper that should work fine.

 

 

 

The book actually starts out with that. The first year projects start out with working with just one color. Then you work with a second color by itself. Then you work with those two together. Then you do a 3rd color. Then you work with two colors again. The years ends with working with all three colors together, but still doing abstract painting to learn how the colors mix into new colors and to get a feel for the warmth and coolness of the colors. The other years have activities to make paintings to go along with the stories being done in class (so folk stories, Old Testament stories, etc).

 

Yes, that is the sort of thing I mean. You can also work in stories to this early stage too, so that it is less abstract. Such as if one began with blue alone, after letting child experience that for himself, play with and feel into the blue color, one could also guide him to find in it storms and skies and so on. As one added in yellow, that could then become a small spot of spring arriving in the middle of the cooler wintry blue. One generally lets the child make the discovery (if yours has not yet) that where they meet green appears. Once that discovery is made, one can then do a story of how the yellow sunshine and the blue water bring forth the green plants. That sort of thing. Or you can just leave it abstract.

 

 

Hmm, my brush may not be big enough then. the biggest one is 5/8" with a flat edge. It's definitely not a detail brush (although I have those that he has used for painting soap carvings he's done)--but it is on the smaller side.

 

Flat edge is good, but that does seem rather small. I'd personally be aiming for one closer to an inch. Though if the paper is small then maybe the brush is big enough. And if your paper is small enough that it fits in a baking pan, maybe that is a good size brush for it.

 

 

 

Watercolor is a lot about flow, so think about what will promote that. And in the early stages of this sort of watercolor, you/he will be working with big washes of color. (This, btw, is also a technique for doing the backgrounds for landscapes and other types of painting, and thus may as well start to get mastered in an effective way.) To try to do a big wash with a small brush is really frustrating. A big brush can be used on its little side or a corner for littler effects and on its broad side for broad big washes. I have happily used a 3" wide brush, which is bigger than you need, but I find that less frustrating than trying to lay on a lot of color with a half inch brush.

 

How about having him hold it and see how it seems. If it seems too small to work well on the paper size you have, or if his hands have trouble holding it well, try a bigger one for sure. One wants to be able to hold the paintbrush fairly loosely part way up the handle, not with a tight pencil grip.

 

 

 

What I meant by textured is that it isn't smooth the way printer paper is. It's labeled as watercolor paper (rather than the cheaper paint/marker paper we've bought at Target before). One side is slightly textured the other is smooth--so the texture is probably pressed into the paper. It's pretty thick--I'd say it feels heavier than the 110lb card stock I have. Would that be too heavy?

 

Your paper sounds fine probably--did it say cold press or hot press?

 

I don't think there really is a too heavy, so much as that sometimes people think they need a much heavier one than they actually do need for the early levels, and invest in 300lb paper and so on. You may have a 140 lb paper which is fairly common. I hope it is cold press. I do not think you need that heavy for a 1st grader, but use it and enjoy it since you already have it. Unless it is hot press, in which case you may want to save it for later when more dry brush work is desirable and find a cold press paper for now.

[tsavoie11]

I would be interested in this as well. We love art here and I wish I could find more time to incorporate it! We have access to most supplies; heavy weight art paper, watercolor paper, acrylic paint, watercolor paints (in tubes), tempera paint, brushes with plastic bristles and camel hair bristles, beeswax modeling clay and crayons, yarn, knitting needles, crochet hooks, wool yarn, looms, the list goes on. If there's something we're missing, as you can tell, we'll just go get it. There's a strong possibility that I have craft ADD. If you add in some Waldorf lust you are left with lots of supplies and not much actual art. :tongue_smilie:

[tsavoie11]

Oh, my kids are 9, 7, 4, 3, and 18 months. Not much real experience but we're all willing to give our best! :)

[freeindeed]

We painted wet on wet today. It went well! I followed instructions found here:

http://simplehomeschool.net/painting-wet-on-wet-waldorf-watercolors-for-children/

All my children enjoyed it, even my non-artsy ds9 and my special needs dd5! That is huge. I had to do hand-over-hand with dd5, but she moved the brush on her own at times. Dd12 and ds9 asked for red in addition to yellow, so I went ahead and let them use two colors. I took lots of pics. Should I upload them on my blog and then post a link in this thread? Or how should I do it? Thanks!

[Shahrazad]

Any recommendations for brands of water color paints and paint brushes for little hands? I was looking at the stockmar paints and brush at palumba but wasn't sure if there might be another, more affordable brands of similar quality.

Written from my phone.

 

[freeindeed]

I purchased my watercolor paints and brushes through Oak Meadow as part of their preschool package. You could also check Rainbow Resource.

[CafeDiem]

Hmm updated my post since this thread seems to be very specific to how to do the wet on wet painting... and running a blog on that. Leaving the shop links. Have fun!

 

Some good sites for supplies are...

http://achildsdream.com/

http://www.bellalunatoys.com/

http://www.novanatural.com/

http://thewoodenwagon.com/

http://atoygarden.com/

www.blueberryforest.com/

http://www.camdenrose.com/

[freeindeed]

Nova Natural has great prices and quick delivery. I ordered from them recently and was very pleased.

[Pen]

I would be interested in this as well. We love art here and I wish I could find more time to incorporate it! We have access to most supplies; heavy weight art paper, watercolor paper, acrylic paint, watercolor paints (in tubes), tempera paint, brushes with plastic bristles and camel hair bristles, beeswax modeling clay and crayons, yarn, knitting needles, crochet hooks, wool yarn, looms, the list goes on. If there's something we're missing, as you can tell, we'll just go get it. There's a strong possibility that I have craft ADD. If you add in some Waldorf lust you are left with lots of supplies and not much actual art. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

That is pretty funny! Time for less is more, maybe and just to start using it?

[Pen]

We painted wet on wet today. It went well! I followed instructions found here:

http://simplehomesch...s-for-children/

All my children enjoyed it, even my non-artsy ds9 and my special needs dd5! That is huge. I had to do hand-over-hand with dd5, but she moved the brush on her own at times. Dd12 and ds9 asked for red in addition to yellow, so I went ahead and let them use two colors. I took lots of pics. Should I upload them on my blog and then post a link in this thread? Or how should I do it? Thanks!

 

 

Those instructions from the link to me seem well done and easy to follow. I'm glad all your children ended up enjoying it.

 

I have not gotten any reply from administrators here, nor have I so far gotten going on a blogsite of my own.

 

Sure, why not put pictures on your blog and then post a link!

 

Would others now writing also want to start in with some yellow alone or yellow and red together, to be doing more or less same type thing at same time and be able to discuss problems and so on that come up?

[Pen]

Any recommendations for brands of water color paints and paint brushes for little hands? I was looking at the stockmar paints and brush at palumba but wasn't sure if there might be another, more affordable brands of similar quality.

Written from my phone.

 

 

No familiarity with palumba.

 

I like Stockmar paints, personally. For one thing, my son and I have problems with various chemicals and while some of the blues have been very stinky, we seem so far to be able to use Stockmar without getting headaches or otherwise feeling ill.

 

I do not know what our original great brush was. It was only around $6 chosen from a bin of brushes. The closest we have now is a Mercurius student brush with a large (both quite long and quite thick) round handle and flat bristles not quite an inch across. I think one brush along those lines would do it for beginning levels.

 

I have quite a lot of other brushes, Hake brushes, round bristle brushes, even a nylon exterior paint (like for houses) brush that I happen to like, as well as some little detail ones, but none of that is needed to get started.

 

If not Stockmar, I'd probably go with a high quality tube paint, and then just mix it with water the same as I would do with the Stockmar. But I had to get rid of a whole set of good quality watercolors in tubes that my grandmother gave me as a special gift due to getting headaches from them. I cannot recall what brand they were.

[Pen]

Oh, I found that book at my library!

 

My copy arrived now. I thought it was going to be IT from the Amazon description...but...actually seeing it, I have mixed feelings about it. Maybe my mixed feelings partly reflect my mixed feelings about Waldorf. Also I now do see how it assumes knowledge.

 

It is not in front of me at this moment or I'd give the page number, but at the start of working with the young children it suggests (from Steiner) telling them that blue and yellow is more beautiful than green and yellow. I do tend to agree that due to contrasts of the values, the yellow in the midst of blue tends to "shine"--but more "beautiful" seems to me a value judgement. And for me it is not especially true of how I perceive beauty that blue with yellow is more beautiful than green with yellow.

 

 

What do you all think? Is it the one combination more beautiful than the other as you experience it? Does this seem personal, cultural, universal?

 

Do you think children should be told that the one combination is more beautiful than the other?

[silver]

I wasn't planning on saying one is more beautiful when we did that lesson--as you said, it does seem like a value judgement. I was either going to skip that activity or maybe do it and see if my son could identify an emotion that blue/yellow produces in him and what green/yellow does. I haven't quite decided yet.

[freeindeed]

Those instructions from the link to me seem well done and easy to follow. I'm glad all your children ended up enjoying it.

 

I have not gotten any reply from administrators here, nor have I so far gotten going on a blogsite of my own.

 

Sure, why not put pictures on your blog and then post a link!

 

Would others now writing also want to start in with some yellow alone or yellow and red together, to be doing more or less same type thing at same time and be able to discuss problems and so on that come up?

 

OK. I plan to blog tomorrow & then I'll post the link here. Thanks!

[birchbark]

Any recommendations for brands of water color paints and paint brushes for little hands? I was looking at the stockmar paints and brush at palumba but wasn't sure if there might be another, more affordable brands of similar quality.

Written from my phone.

 

Paper Scissors Stone has quality watercolors under their own label as well as good deals on brushes and bulk watercolor paper.

 

This blogger uses tempera paints for wet-on-wet as a cheaper alternative.

[Deee]

Hi Pen,

thanks for this thread - I'll play, too. DS is 12 and had Waldorf art up to about grade 2. He draws quite well. Watercolour painting has been a bit of a trauma - some is left over baggage from school, most is my inability to teach him technique cos I have no idea! I have a serious art phobia. We have beeswax crayons, stockmar watercolours and paper. And I have the big fat book mentioned above, which I was hoping would be full of "do it like this" broken down into steps, but isn't. I guess I wanted "Waldorf Art for Dummies" and instead got "Waldorf Art for Those Who Already Know What They're Doing."

D

[freeindeed]

Here is a link to our first attempt at wet on wet painting (it is mixed in with all our weekly homeschool activities, but I posted the pics towards the top so you don't have to wade through everything we did this week...unless you want to): http://freeindeed-redkitchen.blogspot.com/2013/04/homeschooling-and-life-apr-1-5-2013.html

[happyWImom]

Here is a link to our first attempt at wet on wet painting (it is mixed in with all our weekly homeschool activities, but I posted the pics towards the top so you don't have to wade through everything we did this week...unless you want to): http://freeindeed-re...r-1-5-2013.html

 

 

I'm so impressed with your wet on wet painting! With all of the stuff that we have tried with Waldorf, that is the one thing that I have been most intimidated by! I'm not sure why. Maybe because I always felt it seemed too complicated, too messy, too much trouble. I actually bought all of the paints, wooden paintboards, special paper-you name it.

 

You have inspired me. Thanks! :001_smile:

[Pen]

Deee and Silver or others perhaps who have that book-- I personally think I would not start with that exercise with the blue/yellow and green/yellow at all, but rather go to the first all yellow exercise ... and even if a child has already done that sort of thing, do it anyway as a review, and as well for the parent to try it out. Then for an older child like Deee's you could go on to add another color as free did, fairly soon. But with a first grader, like Silver's, I'd keep it to the one color.

 

For those who do not have the book we are talking about, freeindeed's posted link to the Sarah Baldwin instructions could be helpful as somewhere to just start in. You can wet paper by immersing it as the linked instructions indicate, or by having the child (or you if you are painting too, which if you are art-phobic would be a good idea) sponge it on one side and lay it on a surface suitable for painting and then sponge wet the other side working out from the center to the edges, keeping it smoothe so there are not air bubbles.. This can make the wetting of the paper itself part of the process.

 

I would start as simple as possible--just a single yellow (or whatever primary color you choose, but only one, not even the two yellows that the book suggests to start with) and work toward a controlled wash of color that gets lighter at the top of paper, darker at the bottom. It is much harder to do well than it sounds.

 

freeindeed: excellent start! And thank you for posting which helps a lot!

 

 

Here are some thoughts I had of where I might take this start from what I see--but you have to apply your own knowledge based on being actually there and knowing what you all can do:

 

for BabyGirl (BG): If you can get her to do anything at all on her own next time, let whatever she does be her picture. Keep it very very simple, just one color of paint, a sheet of paper, and water and a brush. If she makes one brush stroke and that is all she does, that is her picture for the day. But maybe she will want to do that and then a bit more...or not. Quite aside from special needs, she is very young. To just have the tactile, visual and so on experience is probably enough. She might also like seeing what the dry brush feels like on her palm, or to use just plain water on it or to see how plain water looks on the paper--and see the paper darken where the water is. If you use the sponging method of wetting the paper, that might be in itself, plenty for her. She also might like to choose her own primary color for next time.

 

for Doodle and Bug--trying to base ideas on what they seem already to be doing: Try a blue wash that is dark at the bottom and light at the top of the page. Can they make it look like water or sky?

This is pretty hard to do, it might take a few tries over several sessions to achieve a gentle gradient of color and enough control to make the blue look like watery or skylike.

 

Then: For Bug who seems to be studying Narnia, if he can make it look a bit like water, maybe he can add a bit of red or yellow that is like the Dawn Treader boat if you read that book of Narnia, whereever he thinks that might go. If you haven't read that one, then he could try a bit of red "land" under a yellow "lion" (but it will be harder to get something looking lion-ish than boat-ish, probably) somewhere in his blue.

 

For Doodle, who I gather did some study about Passover, maybe she can add some yellow and or red in a way that makes a hill, and at the top of that, some yellow and or red that makes a burning bush. Then, if very ambitious, a hint of Moses maybe quite small and in a mix of all 3 of the colors so as to be a bit browned/greyed out (?) somewhere near the bush?

 

Hint, if you need to do you can use a wet rag or paper rag to gently lift away some previously applied color if the boat or bush needs to be on more white to come out looking all right.

 

This obviously is more advanced work for the older children, but it looked like maybe they want some challenge. I am trying to suggest more simple for BG, a little more complicated for the two older ones. For the olders also trying to find a way to get them to work on the skill of a gradient wash of color, and control over a single color, while making it more interesting because it can work toward a picture based on what they are studying in other subjects. You might think of other ways to achieve similar.

[Pen]

Paper Scissors Stone has quality watercolors under their own label as well as good deals on brushes and bulk watercolor paper.

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you. The 90 pound Fabriano is the paper we have been using and found good. The flat brushes look like the one we started with in around 1" wide size for early age, and if I were out of my Stockmar, I think I'd give their paint a try.

 

I've used small glass canning jars for the thinned paint, and larger ones for brush rinsing, but the little plastic jars look like they might be safer.

[Abeilles]

I've enjoyed reading this thread as I know very little about Waldorf Art techniques.

[freeindeed]

Oh, Pen, your ideas are fabulous! Thank you so much. I look forward to implementing them this week.

[Pen]

Oh, Pen, your ideas are fabulous! Thank you so much. I look forward to implementing them this week.

 

 

 

You're welcome.

 

Another thought for BG is that if you tell a color story, it might be about a shy (? is she?), hesitant to try new things, reluctant sun (yellow paint dab) who might or might not want to peek out from the white clouds (the white paper). She gets to decide if the sun will. If not, then the white paper is a picture of white clouds and that, without even a mark, is her picture for the day. If yes, then the bit of yellow, however much, is the sun peeking out. At some point over the next few weeks or months, maybe the sun will feel like shining all over the whole sky (paper). Or maybe some other color will want to be the one to come out and show itself and play. (the same idea can be done with blue of sky in day, or red of sky at sunrise)--or you could make up your own color story that fits where she seems to be along these lines.

[freeindeed]

Here is what we did this week: http://freeindeed-redkitchen.blogspot.com/2013/04/homeschooling-and-life-week-of-april-8.html

 

Both dd12 and ds9 really enjoyed it this week...once they got started. :) Initially they were nervous so they were hesitant at first, but once they got into actually doing the painting, they were both enthralled. Now dd5...well, she just did a few strokes and that was it. But at least she did something!

[Pen]

Good work for all!!!

 

BG's--totally fine--completely fulfills the assignment! The main thing for her now at this stage is just to experience a color and working with the materials. Let her continue as she is doing, with as many or as few strokes as she chooses, in a single color. I personally would try to keep her to single color work for the next few weeks at least.

 

Her composition is very interesting, with some dynamic placement of her lines and good contrast between negative (white) and positive (red) spaces. Think of it with a nice glass frame and chrome edges in a modern art museum. In fact, maybe you want to frame it and put it up in your house.

 

B--I especially liked the sky work, very dramatic with the sense of turbulence, and some white showing through is an advanced technique, good job there, the bits of red in it added something good, and I also liked the way some sky work overlapped with the sail. I also especially liked the balance between the dark and the colored part.

 

D--Nicely done flames! and I liked that they stood out most as a focal point of interest. Horizon line well placed for the subject--high as D did and appropriate for the hills and need for the bush to show, or low, gives more interest than placing it in the very center.

 

I'd like to see them work on very similar pictures over again, if they are willing.

 

But first would suggest the following for both:

 

Divide paper into 3 sections top to bottom when in portrait position by drawing line with ruler or folding. Plan to do this exercise twice (at least), once with the sections equal in size, once with each one a different size (they all go all the way top to bottom, so I mean same or different as to width), and done once where the paper will be kept in portrait position when working with it, once with it turned to landscape.

 

In each section there will be 2 primary colors, starting with only one at the top and another at the bottom and then blending them as the meet in the middle. So, for example, one section will have red at one end, blue at the other and they will blend into violet in the middle with more red violet as it goes toward the red side and more blue violet as it goes toward the blue side. There will also be a section with red at one end and yellow at the other, and a section with blue at one end and yellow at the other. So the end result will have each primary color used twice, and each secondary color will appear once with a gradual blend in each direction going toward the primary colors that make it.

 

If this seems like it would be too hard to do all at once on one sheet of paper, use 3 separate sheets to do each of these blends.

 

Experiment with how much wetness and how much paint it takes to get a good effect (perhaps make one of the 2 with less paint for a more pastel look as on D's picture, and one with much more heavy amount of paint, perhaps even more and darker that on B's picture. Which direction feels easiest to work? Does it work best to make brush strokes parallel to the end of the paper, or toward the center where the paints will blend? You will need to figure out how to feather out one color into white from each direction, or how to blend into the color coming from the opposite direction. How does this feel? Does it work better to start with a lighter color (yellow) and then do the darker one (red or blue) or the other way around, or does it not matter?

 

 

And at the end look at them in different directions and from different distances to see how the blends look. If the single divided paper method was used, compare the effects of the sections being different sizes versus all the same size.

 

Work carefully. This can produce a very attractive result if well blended and if the lines between sections are kept straight, but it is hard to do it well. It may take more than one week, and they may want to do it more than just twice, either now, or return to it in a few months or so.

 

BTW, you can also do a similar exercise to create personal color wheels, which can then be put up to use for considering what color to use where on future pictures. Personal color wheels do not have to be perfectly round, or even round at all, just show the pure colors of the paints you have and how they blend from one to another.

-------------------

 

Do you have any tissue paper--the sort that is for art or gift wrapping and is a bit stiff, with bright colors but a bit translucent, not the stuff one wipes noses on? It might come in use.

[freeindeed]

I don't have tissue paper right now, but I can easily get some. Thank you again for all of your help and instruction. We appreciate it.

[Deee]

This is great, Pen. I'd love to do a colour wheel. Could you please talk me through it when you have time? I won't get a chance to try it for a couple of weeks, so no rush.

Thanks

Danielle

[Pen]

This is great, Pen. I'd love to do a colour wheel. Could you please talk me through it when you have time? I won't get a chance to try it for a couple of weeks, so no rush.

Thanks

Danielle

 

 

Do you have just one red, one yellow, and one blue? In which case the process is fairly simple, because you will just use those. Or do you have multiple primaries as well as other colors that you need to decide between as your main primaries, or want to incorporate into your reference wheel?

[Pen]

I don't have tissue paper right now, but I can easily get some. Thank you again for all of your help and instruction. We appreciate it.

 

 

As it happens I don't have much right now either--just saved bits of gift wrapping in very few colors, what would be nice would be a not too expensive pack of a mixture of colors, some that will bleed color and some that are more colorfast--if anyone knows of such maybe they'll post--some white can also be helpful. I think Rainbow Resource listed something like that, but I don't know how good it is. Dick Blick or Michael's may have. This is not critical at all. It ends up going toward mixed media with some tissue incorporated into the painting, and maybe some crayon too at some point. I thought of it as I was looking at the 2 older's work, that it could add something at some point not too far in the future.

[Coco_Clark]

Sorry to jump in, but not having much in the ways of budget, what do you think is MOST important to have as far as quality art supplies go? I was thinking block crayons, water colors (in tubes), brushes, good paper, and some sort of modeling clay (is beeswax best?). Right now we have a lot of cheap stuff all on an accessible shelf; crayons, markers, crayola water colors, scissors, chalk, and construction paper and my boys (4 and 5) love it but I'd love nicer materials for more intensive art time.

[Pen]

Sorry to jump in, but not having much in the ways of budget, what do you think is MOST important to have as far as quality art supplies go? I was thinking block crayons, water colors (in tubes), brushes, good paper, and some sort of modeling clay (is beeswax best?). Right now we have a lot of cheap stuff all on an accessible shelf; crayons, markers, crayola water colors, scissors, chalk, and construction paper and my boys (4 and 5) love it but I'd love nicer materials for more intensive art time.

 

 

 

I think for very young children the beeswax modeling wax is nice because of the warmth and if you take care of it between sessions, it can be used over and over. We have also used clay which can be used sometimes more than once, but not over and over like beeswax, and it is more cold. It is OTOH less expensive for larger amounts. Do not go to anything like porcelain clay which is hard to work with and expensive, both.

 

I do recommend watercolor for that age (rather than oils or acrylics, say). I am using Stockmar paints (come in bottles). The link someone posted above to a cheaper sort looked good, but I don't have personal experience. High quality tube paints are the choice of many artists. Whether tube paints or in bottles, I think only one of each primary is needed for the ages they are and for a good while to come (though the book spoken of above specifies using 2 different reds, blues, yellows). As I posted above the brushes I saw in the link someone gave above resemble what we used when my ds was starting out, flat about one inch wide, though are not identical. I think even if you keep them in your control between sessions, do not get very expensive brushes at this stage, as they tend to get damaged and lost even with best of intentions, Good quality cold press paper (like Fabriano) will hold up well--you can often even wet it to the point of nearly washing off a prior picture and starting over, so that it could turn out less expensive and less frustrating than something of lesser quality, but I think the importance should be placed on the process, not the finished product for 4 and 5 year olds (and maybe for anyone), so if less expensive paper fits that idea better for you, that is also an option. Many ordinary crayons can give quite nice results if you learn to work with them in blending and burnishing, The block crayons are nice for having the different sides or different sizes (Papa Bear, Mama Bear, and Baby Bear sides, as it were)--but my main reason for having preferred them has to do with allergy type problems with ingredients in many regular crayons, and so for us, they (again Stockmar I think??? or was it Lyra ???) were what was accessible just to use since others caused reactions.

 

I think what is most important is what you will actually use, so if you are not going to do watercolor, don't invest in the materials for it. Get a little of whatever you think you will use to good effect, and see if you are actually using it and like it, if so, maybe it is enough--or maybe you want a bit more. The cheap stuff you already have, if they are using it, is worth more than a bunch of expensive stuff that will sit untouched.

[Pen]

 

 

Do you have just one red, one yellow, and one blue? In which case the process is fairly simple, because you will just use those. Or do you have multiple primaries as well as other colors that you need to decide between as your main primaries, or want to incorporate into your reference wheel?

 

Since no reply, here is a preliminary basic sense--ask me for what more you'd like (and PM me or something so I know to check back as not much is happening on this thread currently it drops from view).

 

You can make any shape that pleases you, but let us say you do make a wheel. Start by establishing where on your paper your circle will go--maybe you want a very precise one and want to outline it in pencil, or maybe you want to do it freeform. Either way is fine.

 

Wet your paper, but do not work too wet (you can also work wet on dry if you have a board and tape and so on). Put your primary colors on at 120 degrees from each other around your circle (and in the white space around the outside, I would label exactly what each paint is, by color and brand). Then gradually work the colors in a blend toward each other, so that you have your secondary colors (green, purple, orange) at about the halfway points between the primary colors and gradual blending from each primary to the secondary in between, leaving some pure primary color visible (at least an inch or two to be useful, I'd say, but exact amount depends on total size of your paper and color wheel).

 

In the middle of the circle, I would tend to put the blends of all 3 primaries that make a sort of brown. (If you have enough room, you can also show this as blending with less and less brown and finally the more pure color at the outside of the wheel.) If there are lots of other colors that you have, you can put little swatches of them around the outer part of the wheel near where they seem to fit in (a gold would go near the yellow toward the red side, for example) labeled with, again, the exact color name and brand. You could also put swatches of colors that do not fit the wheel off toward the corners (blacks, greys, and so on).

 

I also like having an area for swatches of colors I have come to when blending on my palette and really like, with a written note of what was blended. It seems so obvious at the time, but a year later, becomes impossible to recall how one did make that ... whatever it is. Even if one does not know the proportions at least knowing what the colors were gives a place to start.

 

If like the book suggests you have more than one primary color, you can do more than one wheel to show how the mixes of the different primaries blend into secondaries.

 

I am sorry that this probably sounds confusing. It would be easier to show with pictures of the process. But a big thing is do not stress about it. Just get into the doing, and it is likely to be more clear what you need to do as you actually start to do it.

 

Also in the book that we have spoken of and I think you said you also have, there is a picture of some color blends in the grade 1 section that could be helpful to look at. He suggests the opposite page orientation of what I suggested to Freeindeed for her older children. The reason I specified putting the page divisions the long way, was to give the children more room to do the blending work and make it gradual as they went along the page.

 

Your color wheel would look sort of like the three bands arranged in a circle, one color leading to another and back again. However, in the book, only the lemon yellow is the same on the color bands, he put 2 blues (Prussian and ultramarine) and 2 reds (carmine and vermillion).