Questions about Charlotte Mason

[snickerplum]

Ok, I'm new to CM ideas and have some questions. I'm ordering the series of 6 books she wrote, but until they arrive...

What about math? My online reading hasn't shown much on CM and this subject.

We started MOH book 1 this year. Will be need to revamp our history plan in order to "stay true' to CM?

I was planning on spelling (R&S) and phonics (FLL) next year (2nd grade). It seems as though CM doesn't want actual curriculum for these, but rather gaining knowledge in these areas through books and copy work?

I really think CM will be good for my littles and our family. I just want to make sure and "get it". :)

Any other thoughts/ pros and cons to CM would be helpful!

[briansmama]

I'm in the middle of reading her original series now, and for math I read that CM recommended we pick a math book and stick with it. If the child is struggling, this most likely is due to how we are presenting it, not the math book itself. We are using Math Mammoth for my 3rd grader, as well as Life of Fred. I've also been adding in living math books from the library about once per week (he loves sports so we are using football and baseball-based math books). CM also recommended short lessons, so we only spend about 20 min on math per day.

 

As for your questions about LA instruction, I would definitely recommend you check out CM Help. Her website has a free program that includes booklists for each year, as well as a description of CM methods. Because the child is not expected to read much of their own lesson books until Year 4, spelling is done through dictation beginning around age 10. My ds is 9 and we do informal dictation for spelling now. We will move on to formal dictation as recommended by CM in the fall, as he is now reading most of his lesson books independently.

 

HTH!

[stripe]

I don't think CM had much of an interest in math. She seemed to be pretty unimaginative, and it was the one area in which she recommended a textbook.

 

I would look for something in which the student needs to demonstrate thinking the idea through. I think her quote about not learning the multiplication table until having figured it out is interesting, but otherwise I have never found much in her books that inspired me on this subject.

 

For what it's worth, the main program I use with my kids is MEP.

[Susie in MS]

"unimaginative"

 

Good description. .

 

My dd does not fit in with CM's line of thinking for math. From what I have been told she would frown on any math which uses stories to get the point across. Well........ I think CM has a lot of good to say, but if you find that a certain part of her methods do not fit best for your family don't be afraid to change. We are doing the first 4 books of LOF. When that is done we are moving to Math Lessons for a LIving Education which uses hands on (seems CM to me and is sold by Queens), but I have been told it is not CM at all. The reason for my move from LOF to MLFLE was money. The later is cheaper.

 

I think CM would have loved R&S, but after a year and a half with it I gave up. It may work for your child though.

[Mom2OandE]

I think with math you could apply a lot other principles. We use livingbooks,fun activities like cooking, carpentry, etc. keep the lessons short. We use math on the level and mus but will be doing all math on the level next year. We spend 20-30 minutes doing math together with books, games,activities and formal instruction. We may accomplish 10-20 problems in that time it he doesn't realize it. Then he does the 5 a day recommended by math on the level by himself. 5 problems. It's working beautifully!

[freeindeed]

Life of Fred is "CMish" I think. Maybe also Rightstart Math or Math U See? Look at the recs from this site also: http://www.amblesideonline.org/

[mom@shiloh]

I don't want to deter you from reading CM original writings, but there are some other books that 'sum it up' and are beneficial for a quick overview:

 

Karen Andreola's A Charlotte Mason Companion

Catherine Levinson -- can't remember the names of the books, but they're short and succinct

Susan Schaeffer Maccauley For the Children's Sake -- LOVE this one!

 

There are also several websites: Simply Charlotte Mason and Ambleside On-line are the first to come to mind.

[Susie in MS]

I agree about other books that sum up CM's writing. Every single time I try to read her own writings on AO I get bogged down and intimidated. They are full of philosophy in sophisticated wording. I do better with--- just tell me how to do it, and get it over with. Hehe!

 

But looking at Catherine Levison's book, A Charlotte Mason Education, in the chapter about math I find this: Pg 44 "Give the children story problems and let them use their beans to solve it." Yet when I mentioned on the AO forum that I was gonna switch my dd to Math Lessons for a Living Education because it uses stories and hands on, and because my dd was not doing well with traditional math, I was informed by those who have actually read CM's works that CM would not approve of stories to teach math. Not that I care one iota one way or the other what anyone thinks--if it works for my child that is what is important. All of that to say....I wonder if Catherine Levison interpreted CM's words on math correctly, or if those at the AO forum were confused. Who knows? I don't want to wade through a lot of long, drawn out philosophy to find out. ;)

[letsplaymath]

From the little that she said in her books about math, I'd say that Mason especially appreciated two things:

 

(1) In many math problems (though not in all!), our children come up against a firm rule or law, something that is solidly right when any other answer is wrong. She felt that this was a valuable and humbling experience.

 

(2) Math gives children the chance to grapple directly with ideas, to learn how to justify their reasoning.

 

These two ideas are related, since it is the justifications (or proofs) that convince us an answer is right or wrong. How do we know that we got a sum correct? We can take the numbers apart and add them another way, to see if we get the same answer. Or we can subtract one of the numbers from the sum and see if we get the other number. Or... well, how would YOU prove it? From the very beginning, children should be doing this sort of informal proof, explaining how they figured things out. Don't wait until high school geometry to let your children wrestle with ideas!

 

This is why stories and manipulatives are so important when working with elementary children. Do not rush to abstract math notation, because children cannot reason with it. They need the physical presence of manipulatives or the mental images of a story to give them something "real" to reason with, so they can grapple with ideas and make justifications. Not until MUCH later will they be able to reason using only abstractions.

 

This is true for teenagers and adults as well. As W. W. Sawyer wrote in his wonderful little book, Mathematician’s Delight:

 

 

Earlier we considered the argument, ‘Twice two must be four, because we cannot imagine it otherwise.’ This argument brings out clearly the connexion between reason and imagination: reason is in fact neither more nor less than

an experiment carried out in the imagination

.

 

 

 

People often make mistakes when they reason about things they have never seen. Imagination does not always give us the correct answer. We can only argue correctly about things of which we have experience or which are reasonably like the things we know well. If our reasoning leads us to an untrue conclusion, we must revise the picture in our minds, and learn to imagine things as they are.

 

 

 

When we find ourselves unable to reason (as one often does when presented with, say, a problem in algebra) it is because our imagination is not touched. One can begin to reason only when a clear picture has been formed in the imagination. Bad teaching is teaching which presents an endless procession of meaningless signs, words and rules, and fails to arouse the imagination.

 

 

Jimmie has collected several of Mason's comments on math here:

• Charlotte Mason on Math
  

 

But I think some of the earlier comments are right, that math was not one of Mason's primary interests. She didn't think or write as deeply about it as she did about other subjects. And because of that, it's easy for us to read our own interpretations into what she wrote and to come to different conclusions. (I certainly have had significant disagreements with the AO ladies about how to interpret Mason's comments and about how to apply ideas such as narration to math.)

[Holly]

I remember reading (somewhere) that she changed her ideas on math at a later time...At first she was against a curriculum, but later thought some kind of systematic approach was beneficial. I can't remember where I read this though. Most CMers like a hands on math like Rightstart, Singapore, MUS, etc. You can add manipulatives to many other programs to make them a little more hands-on. I think the important thing is to stick with one program and not jump around so much (we learned this the hard way).

 

MOH would be a CM friendly history program...I'd add a few related picture books for the ages of your DC. Spelling would be covered with dictation at 4th grade or so. I think her reading methods are a bit heavy on sight words...I disagree with her on this and we teach reading with lots of phonics! I also added a seperate writing program for my oldest this year because narration wasn't enough for her. Reading her books, I'm sure you'll find things that you disagree with, and you should keep that in mind when you are figuring out what is best for your family. I don't think anyone follows all of her methods all of the time. You may choose to start spelling earlier than she did.

 

I enjoy reading articles on Simply Charlotte Mason, AO, and Charlotte Mason Help. I am slowly working through her original series as well...I am a slow reader when it comes to non-fiction! For curriculum, we follow SCM's free curriculum guide...I think it is very friendly for a larger family. There are lots of great ideas there and it's easy to make substitutions for subjects.

[Mandy in TN]

Ok, I'm new to CM ideas and have some questions. I'm ordering the series of 6 books she wrote, but until they arrive...

What about math? My online reading hasn't shown much on CM and this subject.

We started MOH book 1 this year. Will be need to revamp our history plan in order to "stay true' to CM?

I was planning on spelling (R&S) and phonics (FLL) next year (2nd grade). It seems as though CM doesn't want actual curriculum for these, but rather gaining knowledge in these areas through books and copy work?

I really think CM will be good for my littles and our family. I just want to make sure and "get it". :)

Any other thoughts/ pros and cons to CM would be helpful!

 

In the PNEU times tables from 1908, first-third graders did number work for 20-30 minutes a day/ 6 days per week.

 

When I think about Charlotte Mason, I do not think of a specific curriculum. I think about how curriculum is implemented and how the day flows, but I think even more about an educational philosophy that encompasses so much more than just schoolwork.

 

"I am, I can, I ought, I will." is the place from which I instruct, because we achieve through diligence not through intelligence or imagination. I use habit training as a road to success, because I want my son to be a responsible, decent, moral person who possesses positive and productive physical and mental habits. I want him to learn to apply these habits to whatever he chooses to do in life whether that is a tinker, a tailor, a soldier, or a sailor.

 

I exercise habit training alongside the idea that “perhaps the business of teachers is to open as many doors as possible.†I respect that he is born whole and that his mind is naturally designed to learn. I can provide the nourishment of education for his mind to grow healthy through a learning lifestyle where he is trained to be disciplined not in subject matter but in life for "education is an atmosphere, a discipline, a life."

 

You can read her books online and Ambleside Online even has them paraphrased in modern English. There numerous Charlotte Mason books by modern authors as well as her original writings. Adapt whatever will work in your homeschool.There are no Charlotte Mason police here on this board. You don't have to do everything or start everything all at once. :)

 

Mandy

[Susie in MS]

Denise,

Thank you for the clarification! I really appreciate it! :)

[Mrs. A]

In the PNEU times tables from 1908, first-third graders did number work for 20-30 minutes a day/ 6 days per week.

 

When I think about Charlotte Mason, I do not think of a specific curriculum. I think about how curriculum is implemented and how the day flows, but I think even more about an educational philosophy that encompasses so much more than just schoolwork.

 

"I am, I can, I ought, I will." is the place from which I instruct, because we achieve through diligence not through intelligence or imagination. I use habit training as a road to success, because I want my son to be a responsible, decent, moral person who possesses positive and productive physical and mental habits. I want him to learn to apply these habits to whatever he chooses to do in life whether that is a tinker, a tailor, a soldier, or a sailor.

 

I exercise habit training alongside the idea that “perhaps the business of teachers is to open as many doors as possible.†I respect that he is born whole and that his mind is naturally designed to learn. I can provide the nourishment of education for his mind to grow healthy through a learning lifestyle where he is trained to be disciplined not in subject matter but in life for "education is an atmosphere, a discipline, a life."

 

You can read her books online and Ambleside Online even has them paraphrased in modern English. There numerous Charlotte Mason books by modern authors as well as her original writings. Adapt whatever will work in your homeschool.There are no Charlotte Mason police here on this board. You don't have to do everything or start everything all at once. :)

 

Mandy

 

 

:iagree: In my opinion the real value in CM's works is not so much the "how" but the "why". In other words the educational philosophy that she presents and develops in her books is a far more important

concept to grasp than what specific curricula may or may not be approved by her or her followers. Coming to terms with what it really means for a child to be a person and what it means to be responsible for the nurture and training of that person will inevitably guide you to choose curricula that will help you to fulfil that responsibility.

[Ellie]

I wonder if CM would have liked New Franklin math.

[Mommyfaithe]

I really think CM would have absolutely LOVED Google!!!! Seriously! I think she would be fascinated with all of the technology and iPad apps etc. when following CM philosophies, keep in mind she was a woman of her times....and she was progressive. Oh, I can see her loving up Singapore maths and SOTW....and a virtual field trip!!!!!M