Ok, Be Kind...Common Core Question

[PachiSusan]

I know this is a very hot and contentious topic, but I really have some questions that I haven't been able to really get resolution about.

 

When I ask the question, "How will Common Core affect us as home educators and our children as home educated?" I get a whole bunch of emotional answers with no facts, quotes, or reality behind them. I either get "You need to just put your tin foil hat on and go to the conspiracy convention because CC is all good and nothing to worry about" or "Your children will be taken away because the state is going to make home education illegal!!!".

 

As home educators, does anyone have FACTS about what can/will happen to us and our students when Common Core is finally and fully implemented?

 

My understanding is that it's still a fluid work in progress and most of the curriculum is only now being written.

 

I don't want to be scared about this, but I also don't want to be complacent if action is warranted.

 

Can we have this discussion?

[wapiti]

For how the Common Core might ultimately affect homeschoolers, I would look in the direction of college admissions testing and potential changes thereto. I thought there was a thread on the high school board not long ago discussing this...

[Chelli]

I don't know if we can have this conversation but I would like to understand the fuss myself.

 

I used to teach in the ps system. New standards came down the pike all the time. We just rolled with it. Why this particular set of standards has the homeschool community up in arms I'm totally not understanding. :confused1:

 

There are lists being passed around of some of the Christian homeschool groups I belong to of homeschool publishers that are aligning with Common Core. Everyone is treating this list like a list of names headed straight to he!!. I mean seriously. People are refusing to use these compainies because they are using Common Core as their guidelines. I tried to futilely point out that most of these publishers sell to public schools as well as homeschools. If they don't align, they lose the bulk of their profit. Unfortunately my logic was not well met, so my name is probably on "The List" now.

 

One lady was up in arms because she said the ACT and SAT would be Common Core aligned which would effectively keep homeschoolers who didn't comply out of college. It makes me want to laugh and cry at the craziness of that thought. Honestly, by the time your child is ready to take those tests no matter what curriculum you've used they should be able to make a decent score if you've prepped them for the test.

 

It's times like this when being a conservative Christian homeschooler makes me embarassed to be around my own kind. I just want to scream, "USE YOUR BRAIN. DO RESEARCH. DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU HEAR." But then I'm a naturally skeptical person. :laugh:

 

I know that it will change the scope and sequence of some curriculum (such as math), but it's all still going to be covered. I'm generally :confused1: over this one.

[PachiSusan]

For how the Common Core might ultimately affect homeschoolers, I would look in the direction of college admissions testing and potential changes thereto. I thought there was a thread on the high school board not long ago discussing this...

 

 

I don't read the high school board, so I didn't see it. My first thought about that was that I was told this is only to affect K-8 schooling and that NOTHING would be changing in the college curriculum, but that the SAT/PSAT would be dramatically changing. I can see that affecting us because if our children aren't taught the way the other kids are taught, they won't know how to take the test.

[PachiSusan]

I worry less about the standards it's going to impose than the edict that seems to be part of this - which is changing the way teachers can teach the material. Some of the teachers I have talked to that have already started CC training are telling me that they are being given actual scripts and they MUST teach from that script. That to me is worse than NCLB, where teaching to the standards became the norm.

 

I'm also concerned that adoption of CC was reported to be used as a carrot for federal funds or exemptions to NCLB for states that adopted early before the standards and curriculum were even written. I would like to find concrete evidence for this claim if someone has this.

 

I am in the middle with the lists of compliancy. I would like to know which home education providers are and are not aligning so that I can make an informed decision. I don't label the compliant ones bad or evil though.

 

I don't know if we can have this conversation but I would like to understand the fuss myself.

 

I used to teach in the ps system. New standards came down the pike all the time. We just rolled with it. Why this particular set of standards has the homeschool community up in arms I'm totally not understanding. :confused1:

 

There are lists being passed around of some of the Christian homeschool groups I belong to of homeschool publishers that are aligning with Common Core. Everyone is treating this list like a list of names headed straight to he!!. I mean seriously. People are refusing to use these compainies because they are using Common Core as their guidelines. I tried to futilely point out that most of these publishers sell to public schools as well as homeschools. If they don't align, they lose the bulk of their profit. Unfortunately my logic was not well met, so my name is probably on "The List" now.

 

One lady was up in arms because she said the ACT and SAT would be Common Core aligned which would effectively keep homeschoolers who didn't comply out of college. It makes me want to laugh and cry at the craziness of that thought. Honestly, by the time your child is ready to take those tests no matter what curriculum you've used they should be able to make a decent score if you've prepped them for the test.

 

It's times like this when being a conservative Christian homeschooler makes me embarassed to be around my own kind. I just want to scream, "USE YOUR BRAIN. DO RESEARCH. DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU HEAR." But then I'm a naturally skeptical person. :laugh:

 

I know that it will change the scope and sequence of some curriculum (such as math), but it's all still going to be covered. I'm generally :confused1: over this one.

 

[Crimson Wife]

I wasn't at all concerned about it until the bit about Singapore dumbing down Primary Mathematics by removing topics where the Stds. ed. is more advanced than CCS. I had thought that they would revise PM the way they did Discovering Math by leaving the advanced topics and just adding in the handful of new ones necessary. I am VERY disappointed to hear that Marshall Cavendish has decided the way to comply with CCS is by dumbing down their excellent product :thumbdown:

[PachiSusan]

I don't see how it will affect me as a homeschooler at all. The regulations we follow in NY are different than those followed by public schools here. We are required to teach certain subjects, but there is no specifics given in terms of which books we are to use or which topics within those subjects we must cover. You figure, I have only been homeschooling going on 6 years and within that time things have changed 3 times with public schools. We had NCLB, Race to the Top, and now Common Core. Nothing within that time has changed for me. Requirements have not changed.

 

 

 

This is part of Race to the Top, isn't it?

 

It is my understanding that NCLB didn't change standards though - it was basically a way of testing the outcome of what curriculum we had.

[PachiSusan]

I wasn't at all concerned about it until the bit about Singapore dumbing down Primary Mathematics by removing topics where the Stds. ed. is more advanced than CCS. I had thought that they would revise PM the way they did Discovering Math by leaving the advanced topics and just adding in the handful of new ones necessary. I am VERY disappointed to hear that Marshall Cavendish has decided the way to comply with CCS is by dumbing down their excellent product :thumbdown:

 

Now, see, this is where some of my confusion comes in. I am told vociferously from the Pro-CC side that NO curriculum, school, district or anything else that outperforms CC standards will have to change and lower their standards or change the way they teach. Yet I am also told that schools must have uniformity and equality so that if a child moves within districts or states that they will not be too far ahead of or behind the new district. Which is it?

[Hunter]

I think it will fail in the PS before anyone tries to blanket extend it to homeschoolers.

 

There will be cover and charter schools that will be able to immediately require it. I think there will be individual towns that try to coerce naive homeschoolers into thinking they have to comply.

 

Just like many seasoned teachers are going to close their doors and quietly not teach the standards, any homeschooler being coerced will be able to get away with the same thing, and wait for it to blow over.

 

I'm not against or for the idea of a national common core. There are pros and cons that are more far reaching than will affect me and mine personally. Me and mine are not the center of the world and I don't expect national decisions to be based on the subsociety me and mine live in.

 

I just predict that as a nation, we will find these standards too wide to implement as a common core. If you notice the difference between the original and the revised What Your Grader Needs to Know series, what is considered a common core suggestion changed from the early 90s to the early 2000s. I'd be kind of interested to see the original Core Knowledge series spread out over K-8 and see what happened. I'm pretty fatalistic about the revised Core Knowledge or the Common Core standards being possible never mind "right", fair or constitutional.

[Melissa B]

I think it is going to depend on what state you are in. In Florida, homeschoolers are outside all state requirements so it shouldn't have any effect on us at all. No snarkiness intended here, but I don't really understand the questions about not knowing how to take the SAT/PSAT exams. I'm sure there will be SAT prep books just like their are now. I would just buy one (or get it out of the library) and read through it.

[8filltheheart]

Avoiding the entire discussion about the value of CC, I can state the simple fact that nothing the gov't regulates via ps education will alter how I educate my children b/c I know my methods work. I don't homeschool for no reason. I homeschool b/c I believe in what I am doing and what I am offering my children.

 

My kids end up being academically strong. That is my only concern. I will not educate around worries about a standardized test or certain college admissions, etc. I am educating them for life and there is more than one path to meeting success.

[PachiSusan]

To me it's just the newest buzz word. *yawn*

 

Homeschoolers think everyone is thinking about them. Not really. It is not on a lot of people's radar.

 

I know for some seasoned home educators, it's a fight that was fought for a long time and very hard...in most states home education used to be illegal and now it's not. It's hard to not see a threat to home education to people who have worked so hard to make it legal, kwim? I understand some of that angst.

[usetoschool]

I think the problem is there really aren't any facts to discuss. No one really knows what the fallout of all this will be. I am uncomfortable with education becoming more centralized. I prefer education decisions to be made at the school, or at the very least school board level. I also don't like that the federal government has so much power over what the states choose to implement - choose common core or not, but if you don't we don't send any federal funding. Why the government controls education funding at all is a mystery and a problem.

 

From what I have read testing (ACT/SAT and grade level testing for the states that require it for home schooling) will also be geared toward common core. Maybe a problem, maybe not. I read somewhere that common core math is based much more on process than answer so if your child cannot explain how they get the answer, maybe test results won't be as high. Also big emphasis on non-fiction reading - but that doesn't seem like a problem. It really doesn't seem like it would be that hard to bone up on the CC requirements to make sure you can pass the test.

 

Also read some info about databases and wanting to include non-traditional kids in the information. Don't like that but also don't know if it true. I am anxious to read everyone's replies.

 

ETA: yah, Wikipedia, I know, but they have a pretty good synopsis of the plan including the Race to the Top carrot dangling to encourage states to adopt - Common Core State Standards Initiative (sorry, I am on my daughters Mac and don't know how to copy urls). And the website of the CC people is corestandards.org.

 

"The federal government will not govern the Common Core State Standards Initiative. The Initiative was and will remain a state-led effort. NGA and CCSSO are committed to developing a long-term governance structure with leadership from governors, chief state school officers, and other state policymakers."

[Chelli]

I worry less about the standards it's going to impose than the edict that seems to be part of this - which is changing the way teachers can teach the material. Some of the teachers I have talked to that have already started CC training are telling me that they are being given actual scripts and they MUST teach from that script. That to me is worse than NCLB, where teaching to the standards became the norm.

 

I'm also concerned that adoption of CC was reported to be used as a carrot for federal funds or exemptions to NCLB for states that adopted early before the standards and curriculum were even written. I would like to find concrete evidence for this claim if someone has this.

 

I am in the middle with the lists of compliancy. I would like to know which home education providers are and are not aligning so that I can make an informed decision. I don't label the compliant ones bad or evil though.

 

I get what you're saying here, but that affects ps teachers. Not homeschoolers. I'm just confused why homeschool parents care, I guess. I understand if you have a child in ps, but if you're teaching your child at home does it matter if ps teachers use a script. I'm not trying to replicate the public school system. I think it's broken. I think it needs to be fixed. I think that Common Core is like trying to put a Bandaid on the Titanic's hole and hoping it doesn't sink anyway. I plan on continuing to do what I'm doing in our homeschool. I never followed the standards of the ps anyway. I expect more than that. I hope that doesn't sound condescending because I don't mean it that way. I do care about the ps system even though we don't use it, but I'm really, really trying to understand the vitriol some homeschoolers have toward Common Core when it has NOTHING to do with them.

 

And of course the standards are a carrot for federal funds. Putting stipulations on schools so they can have access to federal $ is nothing new. Again, though, it won't affect homeschoolers.

 

The lists I've seen are calling Common Core "communist indoctrination" and "the government trying to take your children away" or "trying to make homeschooling illegal", thus my embarrassment over them. I understand the informed decision part. I believe that a lot of the math programs homeschoolers are using will be changing to align, but that's because most of those math programs sell to public school as well. I've not looked into other subjects. From what I understand the standards are still being written for science and social sciences, so no one knows for sure what those will be.

[PachiSusan]

I would have to say that I am very much where you are in this post.

 

I think the problem is there really aren't any facts to discuss. No one really knows what the fallout of all this will be. I am uncomfortable with education becoming more centralized. I prefer education decisions to be made at the school, or at the very least school board level. I also don't like that the federal government has so much power over what the states choose to implement - choose common core or not, but if you don't we don't send any federal funding. Why the government controls education funding at all is a mystery and a problem.

 

From what I have read testing (ACT/SAT and grade level testing for the states that require it for home schooling) will also be geared toward common core. Maybe a problem, maybe not. I read somewhere that common core math is based much more on process than answer so if your child cannot explain how they get the answer, maybe test results won't be as high. Also big emphasis on non-fiction reading - but that doesn't seem like a problem. It really doesn't seem like it would be that hard to bone up on the CC requirements to make sure you can pass the test.

 

Also read some info about databases and wanting to include non-traditional kids in the information. Don't like that but also don't know if it true. I am anxious to read everyone's replies.

[wapiti]

OP, there are other threads but this is the one I had in mind http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/455869-changes-in-sat-coming/

[Crimson Wife]

 

Really? Do you have any links about that?

 

I'm using MIF and there is the whole CC label on there, but I don't see any dumbing down.

 

There is a thread on the K-8 board where one of the posters copied an email she received from Jenny at Singaporemath.com. I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of this poster.

[PachiSusan]

 

I get what you're saying here, but that affects ps teachers. Not homeschoolers. I'm just confused why homeschool parents care, I guess. I understand if you have a child in ps, but if you're teaching your child at home does it matter if ps teachers use a script.

 

Let me offer something to you on this point:

 

I don't have a child in the PS system, but I have many friends and all my family member's kids are in PS and it WILL affect those I love. Shouldn't I care what happens to them and want to fight for them and their academic freedom as well?

[PachiSusan]

 

I dunno. I live in one of the more heavily regulated states and honestly it's a lot of hot air. It's a minor annoyance. I have yet to meet anyone here who encountered any issues. I think those who encounter the most issues, and I suspect this is true in many states heavily regulated or not, are those trying to pull their kids out of a school. Some schools will give them a hard time about doing that or misinform them about their rights to do so. I've never put my kids in school so I never had to deal with pulling them out. That's a whole other layer of annoyance.

 

There was even a case of a family here who didn't report for years. I mean YEARS. When they were caught they were arrested, which in the end came to nothing. They basically said "oops" submitted some paper work and were on their merry way. I'm sure they knew what they were doing with not following the regs, but that is just it. They are regulations. Not laws. You aren't committing a crime by not following them. They may get on your case for not, but that's about it.

 

No no no, what I mean is that there are people from 20-30 years ago who fought a very hard fight to give us the freedom to home educate. Those people's worry and angst, I understand because they fought so hard for this right and they see anything as a threat to that right.

[PachiSusan]

I just predict that as a nation, we will find these standards too wide to implement as a common core. If you notice the difference between the original and the revised What Your Grader Needs to Know series, what is considered a common core suggestion changed from the early 90s to the early 2000s. I'd be kind of interested to see the original Core Knowledge series spread out over K-8 and see what happened. I'm pretty fatalistic about the revised Core Knowledge or the Common Core standards being possible never mind "right", fair or constitutional.

 

 

Very interesting thoughts. To the bolded... I do not think it is constitutional. It's a national grab of state rights IMO.

[PachiSusan]

I think it is going to depend on what state you are in. In Florida, homeschoolers are outside all state requirements so it shouldn't have any effect on us at all. No snarkiness intended here, but I don't really understand the questions about not knowing how to take the SAT/PSAT exams. I'm sure there will be SAT prep books just like their are now. I would just buy one (or get it out of the library) and read through it.

 

If the way it's taught is also important and one must "show their work" then at least in Math, that's going to be a problem on any of these standardized tests.

[PachiSusan]

I will not educate around worries about a standardized test or certain college admissions, etc. I am educating them for life and there is more than one path to meeting success.

 

Amen!

[Chelli]

 

Let me offer something to you on this point:

 

I don't have a child in the PS system, but I have many friends and all my family member's kids are in PS and it WILL affect those I love. Shouldn't I care what happens to them and want to fight for them and their academic freedom as well?

 

But that's just it. No one know yet how this will all shake down. My mom who's been in education for 35 years thinks that Common Core is great. It has tougher standards than anything that she's seen before in her state. I provides a uniformity across state lines that has never existed before so that children who move from one state or district to another do not have holes in their education. It causes students in the math standards to explain how they derive their answers not just plug and chug. My mom's specialty is math so that really gets her excited! Some teachers, on the other hand, hate it. Of course, you can never please everyone.

 

And just because a program is scripted isn't necessarily a bad thing. I use some scripted homeschool programs. I live in Texas (which is not aligning with Common Core), but they use CSCOPE here in the public schools. It is a scripted program. The veteran teachers didn't like it at first. The newer teachers loved it. However, I haven't heard a lot of complaining about it in recent years because everyone has adapted it to their own teaching style. Not all Common Core programs are scripted though. From what I understand (from my mom and my sister both ps educators) there are lists of textbooks and curriculum providers that are CC aligned that are distributed to the districts. The curriculum selection committees from those districts then choose what they want to use from that list. If the ps teachers you know are using a scripted program for CC it is because their district chose that program not because CC is all using the same books and curriculum. The standards are uniform. How a district chooses to implement those standards is not. Does that make sense? All of this education speak gets redundant after a while!

 

I'm not sure it will impact their academic freedom at all. At least not any more than the public school has always stifled academic freedom. But that's a whole different discussion. ;)

[usetoschool]

Edited my pp to add url of common core website, a quote from them about how this is NOT federal central planning (I am still unsure about the end of that road) and a non-link suggestion about a good overview in the Wikipedia (I know...) article.

[Hunter]

If the way it's taught is also important and one must "show their work" then at least in Math, that's going to be a problem on any of these standardized tests.

 

Showing the work is very difficult for highly gifted children who "see" the answer as clearly as you see you have 10 fingers on your hand. Imagine being asked to show your work on how you came to that conclusion. :lol:

 

Just glancing at the standards, I just think they are impossible and short-sighted for so many reasons, so I don't think we need to worry further.

[Chelli]

 

 

Very interesting thoughts. To the bolded... I do not think it is constitutional. It's a national grab of state rights IMO.

 

Well this is an entirely different kettle of fish, but I totally agree with you. I think the Federal Department of Education is totally unconstitutional as are quite a few other federal departments and programs, but they get around that by saying that CC is not mandatory for states to participate in. However, if you "choose" to align with CC then suddenly the Federal government will open up its coffers to you.

 

:rolleyes:

[dbmamaz]

school standards change sometimes. it doesnt make me panic. SOME states will participate with this and some wont. and this 'power grab' thing . . . i think its silly. like the whole 'end the department of education' or whatever - there has been some federal secretary or something of education since reconstruction. only the name of the position has changed. the states have had to follow specific guidelines in order to get federal money for schools. if they dont want to follow them, they just have to pay for their own schools. insisting that states should have 100% freedom while accepting federal money is a bit rediculous imo.

 

i also think anyone who thinks common core is a threat to homeschooling is just paranoid. this is rules for states accepting financing for their schools. of course, its also another reason to refuse any state funding for homeschooling - if they give you money, they have the right to demand that you conform to their standards.

 

your 'loved ones' arent being abused. The schools are just trying to 'improve'. this happens ALL THE TIME.

[PachiSusan]

BOLDED

 

You just brought up another thing that I can't reconcile in my head so I guess truly we'll just have to wait for it to be implemented and written so that it comes out in the wash, so to speak.

 

One side says the bolded, the other side says that NO Standards will be brought down, yet if a state/district is MORE than excelling, in order to get uniformity, one would HAVE to bring down those schools/districts/states who excel. No one can seem to explain the dichotomy of thought here.

 

Common Core sounds GREAT for those districts/states who are below the curve. It doesn't seem to be so good for those that are above it.

 

ITALICIZED

 

I indeed hope that this is true! That will make me feel better about my PS attending children that I love! :)

 

UNDERLINED

 

Hee hee...agreed.

 

 

But that's just it. No one know yet how this will all shake down. My mom who's been in education for 35 years thinks that Common Core is great. It has tougher standards than anything that she's seen before in her state. I provides a uniformity across state lines that has never existed before so that children who move from one state or district to another do not have holes in their education. It causes students in the math standards to explain how they derive their answers not just plug and chug. My mom's specialty is math so that really gets her excited! Some teachers, on the other hand, hate it. Of course, you can never please everyone.

 

And just because a program is scripted isn't necessarily a bad thing. I use some scripted homeschool programs. I live in Texas (which is not aligning with Common Core), but they use CSCOPE here in the public schools. It is a scripted program. The veteran teachers didn't like it at first. The newer teachers loved it. However, I haven't heard a lot of complaining about it in recent years because everyone has adapted it to their own teaching style. Not all Common Core programs are scripted though. From what I understand (from my mom and my sister both ps educators) there are lists of textbooks and curriculum providers that are CC aligned that are distributed to the districts. The curriculum selection committees from those districts then choose what they want to use from that list. If the ps teachers you know are using a scripted program for CC it is because their district chose that program not because CC is all using the same books and curriculum. The standards are uniform. How a district chooses to implement those standards is not. Does that make sense? All of this education speak gets redundant after a while!

 

I'm not sure it will impact their academic freedom at all. At least not any more than the public school has always stifled academic freedom. But that's a whole different discussion. ;)

[PachiSusan]

Showing the work is very difficult for highly gifted children who "see" the answer as clearly as you see you have 10 fingers on your hand. Imagine being asked to show your work on how you came to that conclusion. :lol:

 

Just glancing at the standards, I just think they are impossible and short-sighted for so many reasons, so I don't think we need to worry further.

 

Agreed. :) I was taught math by a science teacher who taught us SHORTCUTS in algebra and geometry so when I "showed my work" I was accused of cheating because I didn't have all the steps. It was a long hard road to learn it all over again a new way and show my work. UGH

[PachiSusan]

Well this is an entirely different kettle of fish, but I totally agree with you. I think the Federal Department of Education is totally unconstitutional as are quite a few other federal departments and programs, but they get around that by saying that CC is not mandatory for states to participate in. However, if you "choose" to align with CC then suddenly the Federal government will open up its coffers to you.

 

:rolleyes:

 

I do as well. As radical as he was, I voted for Alan Keyes in 2000 and one of his assertions was that the DoE should be eliminated and educational control be sent back to the states.

 

underlined: Thug style coercion IMO.

[PachiSusan]

school standards change sometimes. it doesnt make me panic. SOME states will participate with this and some wont. and this 'power grab' thing . . . i think its silly. like the whole 'end the department of education' or whatever - there has been some federal secretary or something of education since reconstruction. only the name of the position has changed. the states have had to follow specific guidelines in order to get federal money for schools. if they dont want to follow them, they just have to pay for their own schools. insisting that states should have 100% freedom while accepting federal money is a bit rediculous imo.

 

i also think anyone who thinks common core is a threat to homeschooling is just paranoid. this is rules for states accepting financing for their schools. of course, its also another reason to refuse any state funding for homeschooling - if they give you money, they have the right to demand that you conform to their standards.

 

your 'loved ones' arent being abused. The schools are just trying to 'improve'. this happens ALL THE TIME.

 

46 states plus the DoC has already signed up. That seems like MOST to me. ;)

 

And I NEVER said my loved ones were being abused. Let's stick to the exact words and not create emotions that aren't there please? :)

[boscopup]

I worry less about the standards it's going to impose than the edict that seems to be part of this - which is changing the way teachers can teach the material. Some of the teachers I have talked to that have already started CC training are telling me that they are being given actual scripts and they MUST teach from that script. That to me is worse than NCLB, where teaching to the standards became the norm.

 

That's not CC. That's a school district being stupid.

 

In my area, a school changed to the new math standards, and after having a HUGE increase in math ability within the 6th grade class, the teachers said they liked that they had more *freedom* to teach. So the way it was implemented in that school, it's completely the opposite of what your teacher friends are experiencing.

 

And that's the problem. The standards themselves do NOT say what to teach, what curriculum to use, which books to read, etc. Yet some school districts continue to micromanage their teachers to death, as is apparently happening to your friends.

 

As a homeschooler, I personally am not really affected, except that yeah, Singapore math may change a bit, so IF they drop the current Standards Edition that I'm using, I'd need to stock up on workbooks for the younger kids. I don't have a problem using a CC aligned math. I have a problem with having to buy a whole new set of textbooks and instructor's guides if I can't buy the workbook for that level! They have not said yet whether they'll discontinue the current Standards Edition or not. They kept the US Edition when they first came out with Standards, so I have hope. They did replace the Discovering Mathematics with a CC aligned one, but a lot less people were using that, I'm sure.

 

As a homeschooler, I'm not concerned about standardized testing (I already don't teach to the test, so why should I start now?) or ACT/SAT prep. I'm educating my kids to be college ready, and they will be college ready, even if I don't teach xyz in a particular grade. :tongue_smilie: It really shouldn't be an issue on the ACT/SAT tests.

[PachiSusan]

Yeah, I don't know all the details, but for example, if a child takes a course titled "Algebra 1" that can mean so many things believe it or not. Not all algebra books are created equally. I think that's stupid. When a kid takes algebra 1 everyone should be on the same page in terms of which topics are covered. Why is that a bad thing? I really don't understand the paranoia over this. I doubt it will be as glorious as they make it like all the other lofty goals, but yeah why is it a bad idea?

 

I don't think it's a bad thing and I daresay most people don't disagree with this either. It's HOW it's implemented and how it affects other schools who may be providing a better education than others are affected. I have always felt that CC addresses the needs of below the curve districts/schools much better. :)

[Hunter]

i also think anyone who thinks common core is a threat to homeschooling is just paranoid.

 

I was one of those teens in the 80s that sat in church basements watching rapture movies. My ex was very antigovernment. I get the paranoia. Be kind to those exposed to those movies! :lol: To be honest, I get a little itchy about stuff like this and don't know whether that is healthy or part of the brainwashing I was exposed to growing up and in my marriage.

[PachiSusan]

From what I have heard no standards will be brought down. You have to consider who is saying they will be brought down. Mostly alarmists from what I've read/seen so far.

 

There will always be people out there who scream doomsday.

 

And as homeschoolers, really this probably won't affect us. I can't see how it will. And heck, if they come along and tell me that I need to minimally do XYZ, I'm confident I'm already doing so. I homeschool for academic reasons. I am not satisfied with the low academic standards in my district. So I'm definitely aiming a lot higher.

 

Yes, they SAY this. Yet how can they reconcile the uniformity that they espouse with this assertion? They HAVE to pull standards down of some schools and up with others to meet the Common Core Standards. Otherwise, there will be no "easy transition" from state to state or school to school.

 

FWIW, I WANT your assertion to be true. I just can't see it true in practice.

[PachiSusan]

That's not CC. That's a school district being stupid.

 

In my area, a school changed to the new math standards, and after having a HUGE increase in math ability within the 6th grade class, the teachers said they liked that they had more *freedom* to teach. So the way it was implemented in that school, it's completely the opposite of what your teacher friends are experiencing.

 

And that's the problem. The standards themselves do NOT say what to teach, what curriculum to use, which books to read, etc. Yet some school districts continue to micromanage their teachers to death, as is apparently happening to your friends.

 

Hee hee - I hope that's true. :)

 

Then, if it's still district to district what teachers/supervisors impart, how can this EVER work? Either it's got to be across the board compliance or it will fail.

[Crimson Wife]

Yeah, I don't know all the details, but for example, if a child takes a course titled "Algebra 1" that can mean so many things believe it or not. Not all algebra books are created equally. I think that's stupid. When a kid takes algebra 1 everyone should be on the same page in terms of which topics are covered. Why is that a bad thing? I really don't understand the paranoia over this. I doubt it will be as glorious as they make it like all the other lofty goals, but yeah why is it a bad idea?

 

Shouldn't there be an option for an "honors" class that goes beyond the minimum "floor"? Not all students are college-bound, and even of the ones who are, some are aiming for a STEM major at a selective school while others just need the basic college prep to pass a placement test. Personally, I think there should be at least 3 levels in math: general ed, regular college prep, and "honors" college prep. Colleges have different sequences for STEM majors and other majors- the calculus sequence I took for pre-med was easier than the one my DH took for engineering. Why is that such a problem?

[PachiSusan]

I was one of those teens in the 80s that sat in church basements watching rapture movies. My ex was very antigovernment. I get the paranoia. Be kind to those exposed to those movies! :lol: To be honest, I get a little itchy about stuff like this and don't know whether that is healthy or part of the brainwashing I was exposed to growing up and in my marriage.

 

My Aunt and Uncle home schooled their children out of fear of the world and government control in the 80's as well. It has taken years for their children to adjust to the fact that the world didn't end and they have to learn to live in the world.

[PachiSusan]

 

Shouldn't there be an option for an "honors" class that goes beyond the minimum "floor"? Not all students are college-bound, and even of the ones who are, some are aiming for a STEM major at a selective school while others just need the basic college prep to pass a placement test. Personally, I think there should be at least 3 levels in math: general ed, regular college prep, and "honors" college prep. Colleges have different sequences for STEM majors and other majors- the calculus sequence I took for pre-med was easier than the one my DH took for engineering. Why is that such a problem?

 

I honestly don't know if the CC addresses this. I do know that a FB friend of mine had a daughter in AP studies and their district closed them down because of CC implementation. Now to be fair I have NO IDEA if it truly was CC or it was, as asserted before, dumb districts. :)

[Crimson Wife]

They did replace the Discovering Mathematics with a CC aligned one, but a lot less people were using that, I'm sure.

 

The difference is that the new DM isn't any less rigorous than the old version (my DD did the old 1A and is now in the new 7B). No topics were removed, only topics added. I am very disappointed to hear that topics will be taken out of PM to make it CCS compliant. Why can't they just leave them in and have it be ahead of the CCS?

[PachiSusan]

Coming from California and seeing the crap they've come out with, I dont' have much faith in them being seen as the leader of what is chosen. ACK!!!!! I agree though, those states do dictate a lot of what others get.

 

I hope that the nay sayers are wrong and that CC will help fix our schools. I personally just don't have a lot of faith that it will. I would be happy to be proven wrong. :)

 

I don't think the differences are as huge as you are assuming though. Consider the states who are probably the biggest text books buyers (Texas, California, New York). They probably control and have controlled the market for years. What is out there in terms of textbooks is in huge part dictated by these larger states (larger in terms of population). There have probably been more similarities than differences.

 

My BIL is a teacher in Germany. Germany pretty much follows a common core type model. But there is still some leeway in terms of which books are used and an allowance for individual teachers to do things their way. So, in other words, there is the art and the science involved (the science of the content and the art of the delivery of the information). So each year he is on a committee to choose books for the school. They are allowed to choose from a list of approved books. It's not that every teacher must stand there like a robot and read from a script. It is not that every school uses exactly the same books. This is very similar to what I believe common core is trying to achieve.

[PachiSusan]

 

The difference is that the new DM isn't any less rigorous than the old version (my DD did the old 1A and is now in the new 7B). No topics were removed, only topics added. I am very disappointed to hear that topics will be taken out of PM to make it CCS compliant. Why can't they just leave them in and have it be ahead of the CCS?

 

That DOES bother me. Why not allow it and just put it in an appendix in the back of the regular book for those who want further math?

[PachiSusan]

Thank you ladies - for being so honest and discussing this very hot topic with grace and helpfulness. It truly is a multi-faceted topic that deserves discussion - not with fear and revulsion or denigrating those who have questions about it.

[PachiSusan]

 

Well I dunno. I do think California has one of the better reputations.

 

I have no reason to believe CC will fix our schools. I only say that because there will always be something to complain about. That's the nature of anything that deals with such diversity. Not long ago I read newspaper articles from my local district from the 1800s. Things were going to hell in a handbag then too. It's kinda crazy to discover that the schools have apparently sucked for so long. The problems were different then, but there were definite problems and people were convinced that would spell doom forever. Just like now.

 

If CA has one of the better reputations, I'm worried for our country. It's in the 4o's out of the 50 states in the outcome they achieve. Drop outs are high and college problems are high as well. The kids are guinea pigs for just about every new theory out there.

 

My nephew and nieces were the guinea pig generation for Whole Language and the demonization of Phonics. They cannot read well and can't spell to save their lives. Seriously.

[PachiSusan]

Then again, I don't know why some topics are introduced at what times. There seems to be no rhyme or reason for some of it. I read the 3rd grade standardized test for NY some time ago and I recall one of the questions being something about symmetry. Kids weren't expected to know more than 2 + 4 and how to read a basic bar graph, but for some reason there was a question about symmetry. Why? Seems so random to me. It was the one vocabulary type question in the math section.

 

I agree. I think many of the standards are just "random" throw ins. Reading the standards, they stand out like sore thumbs...like they were just added in for good measure! :laugh:

[PachiSusan]

I kinda live in a bubble anyway. :laugh:

 

I just do what I do and so far that has worked out for me.

 

I try to live in my little insulated bubble, but sometimes those people with the pins come and pop my bubble and make me get involved - like this issue.

[Roadrunner]

 

 

I don't think it's a bad thing and I daresay most people don't disagree with this either. It's HOW it's implemented and how it affects other schools who may be providing a better education than others are affected. I have always felt that CC addresses the needs of below the curve districts/schools much better. :)

 

 

I don't understand how you are coming to that conclusion. With an exception of CA and MA, CC math standards are above the existing standards. So all schools will see higher standards. Let's take CA for example. Our standards are pretty close to CC, yet two high schools half an hour away (example east Palo Alto versus west Palo Alto) have drastically different performances. I suspect with CC, just as with any other standard, strong high schools with affluent students and involved parents will do a terrific job (as is), while struggling schools will continue to struggle (because CC is meant to deal with standards, not the root causes of failure often linked to socio-economic environment). I fail to understand how performance of one school district can bring down the achievement in the other because of CC.

 

Handing teachers a script to read? Yes, I think that type of control is terrible, but it's has been happening here for a while and has nothing to do with standards.

[boscopup]

 

The difference is that the new DM isn't any less rigorous than the old version (my DD did the old 1A and is now in the new 7B). No topics were removed, only topics added. I am very disappointed to hear that topics will be taken out of PM to make it CCS compliant. Why can't they just leave them in and have it be ahead of the CCS?

 

 

In the post I saw on the forum, they weren't planning to take things out. If it was already ahead of the CCS, it'd continue to be ahead.

 

Without the books being written yet though... who knows what will happen. If they plan for it to be this year and know so little about the changes, I'm guessing they aren't changing much.

[PachiSusan]

I don't understand how you are coming to that conclusion. With an exception of CA and MA, CC math standards are above the existing standards. So all schools will see higher standards. Let's take CA for example. Our standards are pretty close to CC, yet two high schools half an hour away (example east Palo Alto versus west Palo Alto) have drastically different performances. I suspect with CC, just as with any other standard, strong high schools with affluent students and involved parents will do a terrific job (as is), while struggling schools will continue to struggle (because CC is meant to deal with standards, not the root causes of failure often linked to socio-economic environment). I fail to understand how performance of one school district can bring down the achievement in the other because of CC.

 

Handing teachers a script to read? Yes, I think that type of control is terrible, but it's has been happening here for a while and has nothing to do with standards.

 

 

I guess it depends on who you ask, unfortunately. I have been reading from both sides of this issue and the pro CC people that I have read are saying that California is exceeding the standards in Math, yet are underperforming on the tests. If a district is exceeding the standards, yet they are required to teach TO the standards, it would stand to reason that it would pull their standards down TO CC.

 

If the CC values uniformity like it ALSO states - these two though processes are incompatible - therefore the confusion of which is correct. They can't both be. Either they are allowed to outperform the standards and risk the uniformity part of the CC implementations, or they are required to comply to the uniformity part and not allow excelling programs.

 

And please note, I am not trying to be contrary or argumentative about this, I TRULY do not understand how BOTH can be true. I'm still working through this myself and I'm grateful for all the information presented!

[PachiSusan]

 

In the post I saw on the forum, they weren't planning to take things out. If it was already ahead of the CCS, it'd continue to be ahead.

 

Without the books being written yet though... who knows what will happen. If they plan for it to be this year and know so little about the changes, I'm guessing they aren't changing much.

 

 

Not many people actually know how/what they have to change yet. I don't think there's going to be much compliance outside of public school curriculum...