Paisley Hedgehog Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

mom2bee Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 My two cents? I would do Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Pre Calculus, then Geometry. (Does your PreCalculus cover trigonometric functions? In my mind, PreCalculus is a direct extension of Algebra 2, in PreCalc I learned to graph rational functions, about asymptotes, end behavior and zeros of a function, I worked with exponential and logarithmic functions, learned to graph ellipses, parabolas, hyperbolas--what some call "Analytic Geometry" and we studied series, sequences. To this day I have never studied an actual course on Geometry. There was always a chapter or section on Geometry in my math books growing up, so I have the basics I know how to reason some things out and look up a formula for an obscure shape when I need it. I do just fine as a math student without ever having had Geometry, so I wouldn't have an qualms about Algebra1, Algebra2 and PreCalculs all being done before Geometry. If you don't feel comfortable doing Geometry dead last, what about spreading it out by doing it along with Algebra 2 and PreCalculus. So that each year your student does 1.5 math courses? That way you can work on Geometry without getting rusty in Algebra... ETA: regentrude makes a really excellent point. I didn't think of the fact that some students are going to try and take the SAT/ACT. I simply meant that if you have a basic understanding of Geometry then you can do all the 'Algebra courses' including Trigonometry without ever actually having studied a full course on Geometry. That is not to say that you should do it that way. While I never studied Geometry as a course on its own, I am making time in my schedule to learn more of it simply because I'd like to reach a level of basic proficiency in Geometry, I am majoring in Mathematics now, after all. Again, I am not fluent in Geometry and I didn't take a traditional route to College. I know that not everything works for everyone. I was just chiming in to give my 2 cents. </end of edit> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Jane in NC Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Some students who struggle with basic algebra are actually quite good in geometry. This can give a struggling student the opportunity to gain confidence as his brain matures before stepping into Algebra II. High school geometry is the opportunity that high school students have to be introduced to what Mathematics really is. Algebra, Trig, yeah nice stuff--but not what higher math is all about which is the proof. Even students who are not becoming math majors will benefit from learning the logical follow through necessary in proving geometric theorems. I obviously vote for geometry next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

regentrude Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 My two cents? I would do Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Pre Calculus, then Geometry.. I would not recommend this. This sequence will put a college bound student at a disadvantage, because she will need to have geometry prior to taking the ACT/SAT. Also, a good precalculus will cover trigonometry, which makes no sense if the student had not had geometry before. I second Jane's recommendation for geometry next. I would make sure to review algebra periodically throughout the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Paisley Hedgehog Posted March 22, 2013 Author Share Posted March 22, 2013 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Dana Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 My two cents? I would do Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Pre Calculus, then Geometry. .... To this day I have never studied an actual course on Geometry. There was always a chapter or section on Geometry in my math books growing up, so I have the basics I know how to reason some things out and look up a formula for an obscure shape when I need it. I do just fine as a math student without ever having had Geometry, so I wouldn't have an qualms about Algebra1, Algebra2 and PreCalculs all being done before Geometry. I don't like slamming people. I have no problems with you posting as you're learning. I do have problems with your advice when you are coming from a background where you don't have kids, so you don't have experience with homeschooling, and you don't have experience having taught anything. From teaching, you learn why earlier exposure and experience is so important in some subjects. Never having taken geometry, you don't know how much you've missed and likely how much you aren't understanding. Geometry is where students typically see for the first time how math is actually done. It's not just computation (and honestly all of algebra and even all of calc I (with the exception of epsilon delta proofs) is basically computation). The two-column proofs of a geometry course aren't how proofs are typically done, but it is the first place you see where proving things matters. We don't just say "The sum of angles in a triangle is 180 degrees." We can prove it from our starting information. Again... I have no problems with you posting ... but be honest in your presentation of yourself (unlike when you first joined the forums). Don't give advice to others when you're not coming from a place of experience... and you're not here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

kiana Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Some course sequences are set up so that someone could succeed in them without taking a separate course in Geometry. (For example, Saxon, where it's integrated, or the college developmental math sequences). TT is not set up that way, and geometry should be done before precalculus. If your student has struggled with algebra, I would go ahead and move into geometry. Maybe the difference will be a breath of fresh air for him. You might consider, though, doing occasional algebra 1 review assignments to reduce forgetting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

AngieW in Texas Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 It's especially important for kids who struggle with Algebra I to take Geometry before moving on to Algebra II. Many (if not most) kids who struggle with Algebra I find that Geometry is much easier for them. Putting a year of geometry in between the two algebra courses allows for another year of development before piling more algebra on top of already poorly-understood algebra. Most geometry programs have algebra I review built in. My dd struggled all the way through MUS Algebra I. Geometry has been wonderful for her this year because it makes complete sense to her. I am not looking forward to moving back into algebra next year with MUS Algebra II, but I am hoping that this year of much nicer math combined with another year of maturity will make it less of a challenge than Algebra I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

teachermom2834 Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 I vote for geometry next. Many homeschoolers we know in our area do algebra 2 before geometry just to keep going with the same subject before switching. I felt like my guy needed a break from algebra so we took the geometry next route. It has been a great break. His confidence has improved and it seems his algebra has as well. When algebra comes up in geometry or standardized test prep things he is doing well with it. I think he just needed a change of pace and some time for it all to settle in his head. It seems to be coming together now. I guess I should be nervous about going back to algebra with him but I'm not, really. I think he just needed a little more time and will do just fine next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

LovinHS Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Some students who struggle with basic algebra are actually quite good in geometry. This can give a struggling student the opportunity to gain confidence as his brain matures before stepping into Algebra II. This was exactly the case with dd. She barely scraped through Algebra 1, then excelled in geometry & regained some of her "math self-confidence". I now wish I had sneaked in some Algebra review while going through the geometry (while her confidence was higher). Maybe I could have just "called" it something else, because when we went on to Algebra 2, she glazed back over when she saw the "A" word on the cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

HollyinNNV Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 I would not recommend this. This sequence will put a college bound student at a disadvantage, because she will need to have geometry prior to taking the ACT/SAT. Also, a good precalculus will cover trigonometry, which makes no sense if the student had not had geometry before. I second Jane's recommendation for geometry next. I would make sure to review algebra periodically throughout the year. I agree. You need geometry for the tests! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

bobbeym Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Does TT offer samples that you could download/view to see which course would be a good next step for her? Which does your DD prefer? DS asked to follow the Alg 1, Alg 2, Geometry route because he doesn't feel he's mentally prepared to take Geometry later this year. at the request of DS, who knows he isn't ready to handle Geometry and proofs yet. I agree, and we're using IXL.com to strengthen his Alg 1 skills to make sure he's ready for Alg 2 this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Koerarmoca Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 In 8th we did the first 1/2 of Alg1, in 9th (our current year) we continued alg1 and started Geo at the same time. The plan for 10th is Alg2. We should be on track for pre calc in 11th. Dd really didn't need alg1 split like that but due to medical & family issues we didn't keep the pace we usually do, and I wanted to make sure she had a good algebraic foundation before starting Geo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

MyThreeSons Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Will it be harder to get back to Algebra II after a year off (Alg I - Geometry - Alg II - PreCal), or harder to go to Pre-Cal after a year off (Alg I - Alg II - Geometry - PreCal)? It will be MUCH harder to do Pre-Cal after a year away from Algebra. There is some Algebra review built in to the Geometry program, but it's only Algebra 1, not Algebra 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

mom2bee Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 If you need some form of Algebra 'lite' or review, while doing Geometry, can someone chime in to say how helpful the "Keys to Algebra" workbooks would be in this situation? Or Maybe, the Humongous Book of Algebra Problems: Translated for People Who Don't Speak Math. Its all worked examples with annotations to why the problems are solved that way... Also, lets not forget KhanAcademy allows you to work examples as well as view video tutorials. Just some thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

mom2bee Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Sorry to derail the topic. I tried to PM this reply to Dana, but she doesn't recieve PM's from me, so I am posting this on the thread, simply because I feel compelled to reply as I don't like some of the things she's said to me over the last two days. I don't like slamming people. Then don't. You have complete and utter control over your self and you don't have the right to be nasty, just because we communicate over the internet. I have no problems with you posting as you're learning. So glad that I have your permission to use a public forum on the internet, that makes me feel FANTASTIC </sarcasm> I do have problems with your advice when you are coming from a background where you don't have kids, so you don't have experience with homeschooling, and you don't have experience having taught anything. This isn't true. I have taught the 3R's (and basic Spanish, Typing and Computer Skills) to someone elses kids on the elementary level. And yes, I was the primary teacher, I was the one who researched the curriculum, implemented the curriculum on the daily level and actually assessed the progress of my students all of my students progressed beneath my teaching. I taught a group of 4 children in the age range of PreK to 4th grade for a little over year and a half. I am not currently teaching anyone as I am swamped with my own college classes, I have not taught 5th-8th grade, though I've extensive tutoring experience here and I am the "Learning Coach" of a girl who uses an online school and this is my 3rd year doing it, as she started in the 6th grade and now she is in the 8th. . . . Again... I have no problems with you posting ... but be honest in your presentation of yourself (unlike when you first joined the forums What exactly does that mean? I was always clear that I was HSing someone elses kids, but haven't got any kids of my own, it was in my signature, though I didn't declare it with every single post I made.). Don't give advice to others when you're not coming from a place of experience... and you're not here. I didn't mean to sabotage anyone educating their kid and its hardly as though I did anyway. I meant from a purely content perspective, that one could skip over Geometry and still progress just fine in Algebra and Calculus. (Ask me how I know?). Lack of experience doesn't mean a lack or worth. Also, you completely ignored where I said "If you don't feel comfortable doing Geometry last..." and just used everything else to attack me. As for how much I understand? I tutor math a community college, I passed written exams in everything from Pre-Algebra to Calculus 2. (I ran out of time before I took the Calculus 2 exam, I'll take the exam for Calc 2 --along with Calculus 3 in May. And after I passed the written exams, I passed the interview and the oral exam that is given by 2 people who hold advanced degrees in math. This is not to say how much I know, as if I am above others who have taken or are taking the same classes--but that I have pretty good understanding of what the heck is happening in Algebra and Calculus. Thank you for your concern. Oh, and I was offered a tutoring job at a 4year university also, they were willing to pay me more than I make at the CC, but I couldn't commit to the time schedule they needed, but I will probably begin working at the Uni as a math tutor in the Fall of this year, as I simply need more money. Dont get me wrong. I have more to learn--a ton more to learn and I can always refine me knowledge and perfect my abilities, just like every other person, I'm not 100% perfect, I still make mistakes from time to time, and I still ask my coworkers if they know better, more efficient, or simpler ways to solve problems, but I think that I understand enough to have a right to speak. I'm not saying that my experience is the most valuable, but it has value and it has merit--JUST LIKE YOURS. You, however, seem to be over reacting and frankly, being more than a little mean-spirited toward me. Other posters may sometimes (or even often) make more valuable replies than mine, it doesn't give you, or anyone else the right to 'slam me'. Please, please, please back off with the snark, the nastiness and the rudeness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

kiana Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 But the problem is, M2B, many curricula are NOT designed to allow a student who has not taken geometry to be successful in precalculus. Students who have forgotten their high school geometry classes are the students who struggle in my precalculus classes, as they forget things such as areas of circles/triangles/trapezoids, what the sum of the angles in a triangle is, what a complementary/supplementary angle is and when you might use such a thing, what it means to be parallel/perpendicular, how to use similar triangles and the pythagorean theorem, and many other topics. There is review in the algebra/precalculus textbooks, but for most students who have genuinely never seen geometry it isn't enough. I'm glad you've been able to be successful without taking geometry. But really, recommending this as a course of action is setting students up for unnecessary difficulty in their precalculus classes and on the SAT/ACT. Most students who are not naturally talented in mathematics and need extra practice will not be able to do what you did. The OP's student is struggling with algebra 1. The likelihood of him being able to skip a course and intuit the missing parts is not high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

mom2bee Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 But the problem is, M2B, many curricula are NOT designed to allow a student who has not taken geometry to be successful in precalculus. Students who have forgotten their high school geometry classes are the students who struggle in my precalculus classes, as they forget things such as areas of circles/triangles/trapezoids, what the sum of the angles in a triangle is, what a complementary/supplementary angle is and when you might use such a thing, what it means to be parallel/perpendicular, how to use similar triangles and the pythagorean theorem, and many other topics. There is review in the algebra/precalculus textbooks, but for most students who have genuinely never seen geometry it isn't enough. Right, and this is a part that I genuinely didn't think about. I recognize the validity of this concern and in my very original post I even made the note and said "If you don't feel comfortable..." as I try to keep in mind that I did not take a traditional path to college and I didn't think about ACT/SAT, and how the courses most students take are geared to those tests . The above post was more about the fact that Dana is starting to make me feel hurt and uncomfortable with her tone and words, than defending my original post. I'm glad you've been able to be successful without taking geometry. But really, recommending this as a course of action is setting students up for unnecessary difficulty in their precalculus classes and on the SAT/ACT. Most students who are not naturally talented in mathematics and need extra practice will not be able to do what you did. The OP's student is struggling with algebra 1. The likelihood of him being able to skip a course and intuit the missing parts is not high. I also struggled really, really badly in math. I was NOT a star-math student at all. Even now I am not a Math-Ace, but I've found my groove and am determined that is all. I'm not expecting him to inuit the missing parts at all. I said that the exposure I'd had to geometry was the chapters on geometry my math texts in K-8. I've never met an 8th or 9th grade student who has NOT seen things like Pythagorean Theorem, Angles, etc... That is not to say that they aren't plentiful and out there, simply that I took it for granted that by the time you get to Algebra 1, that you are familiar with "basic Geometry" stuff such as complimentary and supplementary angles, how many degrees are in squares, circles, triangles, the Pythagorean Thm. and the ideas of area, perimeter, and circumference. Also, my PreCalculus class didn't need any of those things really. I recall using Pythagorean Theorem and for Trig (it is a seperate class in my state schools) we needed triangles, but still nothing major. I remember needing to use the idea of similar triangles for a couple of problems. I started out taking Elementary Algebra when I decided to go to college. I fought with my parents when I announced that I was going to take College Algebra and "core math" classes (ie. PreCalculus, Trig, Calculus, etc...) instead of the Math-for-Non-Majors track because they didn't think it was a good idea, since I wasn't "good at math". I spent a good deal of time studying and practicing and driling and pushing myself just to get the basics down. I logged hundreds of hours at the very tutoring lab that I work in now. I absolutely understand struggling with math. Again, the above post is directed at Dana because she is making me feel hurt, attacked and uncomfortable on the boards. I tried to PM the message directly to her, but I am apparently 'blocked' from PMing her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Jane in NC Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Mom2bee wrote: I also struggled really, really badly in math. I was NOT a star-math student at all. Even now I am not a Math-Ace, but I've found my groove and am determined that is all. I'm not expecting him to inuit the missing parts at all. I said that the exposure I'd had to geometry was the chapters on geometry my math texts in K-8. I've never met an 8th or 9th grade student who has NOT seen things like Pythagorean Theorem, Angles, etc... That is not to say that they aren't plentiful and out there, simply that I took it for granted that by the time you get to Algebra 1, that you are familiar with "basic Geometry" stuff such as complimentary and supplementary angles, how many degrees are in squares, circles, triangles, the Pythagorean Thm. and the ideas of area, perimeter, and circumference. Also, my PreCalculus class didn't need any of those things really. I recall using Pythagorean Theorem and for Trig (it is a seperate class in my state schools) we needed triangles, but still nothing major. I remember needing to use the idea of similar triangles for a couple of problems. But this is not the point of a high school geometry class. How many proofs did you see in Algebra? Mathematics is based on the proof. Most high school students see very little of "real" Mathematics (sorry--Calculus is taught to most in an algorithmic fashion--not with regular proofs). The beauty of high school geometry is that students get a taste of what Mathematics really is. Further, even a non-mathy person can become a better writer and thinker by working through geometric proofs. I agree that middle school students have been exposed to angles, measures, areas. But do they prove things like the measure of an angle inscribed in a circle is equal to one half the measure of its intercepted arc? Do they create some very cool locus constructions? Do they know how to form a converse? The list goes on... Apologies to the OP for the mega distractions within her thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Paisley Hedgehog Posted March 25, 2013 Author Share Posted March 25, 2013 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

regentrude Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 How many proofs did you see in Algebra? Mathematics is based on the proof. Most high school students see very little of "real" Mathematics (sorry--Calculus is taught to most in an algorithmic fashion--not with regular proofs). The beauty of high school geometry is that students get a taste of what Mathematics really is. Further, even a non-mathy person can become a better writer and thinker by working through geometric proofs. I agree that middle school students have been exposed to angles, measures, areas. But do they prove things like the measure of an angle inscribed in a circle is equal to one half the measure of its intercepted arc? Do they create some very cool locus constructions? Do they know how to form a converse? The list goes on... I completely agree. And if higher math is taught well, it will be taught starting from proofs. In our calculus course at the university, the instructor proved every relationship; we spent as much time on the theory as on working out problems (it was taught much differently from the way calc is taught at here, an approach I find very utilitarian and lacking in conceptual depth). For a student who has not been introduced to formal proofs in a field where proofs are less abstract, more visual, and more easily approachable like geometry, it will be extremely difficult to succeed in a proof based higher math course. Of course, if calc is dumbed down and reduced to a series of tricks that have to be memorized, the student would not notice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

mom2bee Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Mom2bee wrote: But this is not the point of a high school geometry class. How many proofs did you see in Algebra? Mathematics is based on the proof. Most high school students see very little of "real" Mathematics (sorry--Calculus is taught to most in an algorithmic fashion--not with regular proofs). The beauty of high school geometry is that students get a taste of what Mathematics really is. Further, even a non-mathy person can become a better writer and thinker by working through geometric proofs. I agree that middle school students have been exposed to angles, measures, areas. But do they prove things like the measure of an angle inscribed in a circle is equal to one half the measure of its intercepted arc? Do they create some very cool locus constructions? Do they know how to form a converse? The list goes on... Apologies to the OP for the mega distractions within her thread. Again, I acknowledge and even cede the point. I was talking directly to Dana because she singled me out and insulted me twice in as many days and I just wanted to address the issue with her. In this thread and in another thread about College Algebra and Trigonometry, she "slams" me. "And mom2bee... you're wrong yet again. Stop posting when you're wrong." I just stated a fact that there in my state, there 3 different classes to be taken before Calculus 1. Who is she to try and shut me down in that way? I didn't make it up, she just jumped on me and said I was wrong, when I wasn't. Yes, she went back and made the edit, to acknowledge that she was wrong but still. No one talks to one another on this board in that way and I don't appreciate being the exception. If I could have this conversation just with her, I would, but I can't PM her. It is clear to me that she has been back and read my reply to her, but she's still not said anything TO ME. Instead, she's letting others fight her battles for her, so to speak. I would love an apology, or at least some acknowledgement from her about her posts. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of the world, but it matters to me. Again: this isn't about the validity of my argument against the neccessity of a Geo. course in HS. I am not against studying Geo. in Highschool between Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 or at any other time. I am simply against Dana taking it upon herself to 'slam me'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Dana Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I apologized in the other thread because I was wrong. I will not respond again after this post. You have posted on threads before this one, most recently on repeating a grade, where you offer advice but where you aren't coming from a position of experience. This is the case in this thread in particular. I called you out because I believe you have been misrepresenting yourself and your prior experience. I think it is important for people getting advice...one of the strengths of these forums...to know the background and experience of the people giving the advice. Again, my issue is with your misrepresentation of yourself, particularly in the past, and more now with your posts where you give advice but don't have the experience to know where you may be creating problems. I wish you the best in your studies. I'm glad that you've been able to improve with math and I'm glad you've been successful in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

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